Between Discovery and Disclosure: Seeking Truth Without Causing More Harm (Episode #132)

There's something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh. Something surrounds you.

Welcome to the Human Intimacy Podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Michaelis, licensed clinical social worker. Marianne, we've been working with couples for, for me, almost 3 decades. You've been working with individuals over a decade and working with individuals who've been betrayed. There's something that happens in a couple's relationship that is very challenging for both partners. And it's, we've found out there's some kind of a discovery and the time between discovery and getting all of the information. That's the desired goal is to get the information of what occurred, And so many questions in between. So Marianne, our topic today, I think, is extremely important for a couple. So if you're listening to this and you've recently discovered, or maybe you discovered what your partner was doing years ago, but you've never done a proper disclosure, Marianne and I today are going to be talking about not just— we've talked previously about proper disclosures, but really it's that gap between discovery and really talking about the details in a productive way. Your initial thoughts, Marianne.

Dr. Skinner, I'm so glad we're talking about this today. I have been seeing in my office recently just so many challenges with this, which is why I wanted to talk about it. And what I'm seeing over and over are partners who've been betrayed, who are wanting their answers to their questions, who want to know Their reality. There's been infidelity in the relationship. I discovered it. I found some information and I want to know what my reality is. And so oftentimes they'll say, hey, okay, let's get some help. Let's go find a CSAT. And their CSATs, they sit down and their CSATs say, okay, we're going to start doing some work. And then when the partner gets to me, I'll say, okay, we're going to start working on this. We're going to start putting together your questions. And my clients will say, Well, I just wanna ask my husband my questions or my partner the questions. Why can't I just— hey, last night I was asking my partner some questions and then we had a big fight. And then we have the conversation. I know you want these answers, but your spouse or partner is not ready to give you the answers yet. And I see cycles in the relationships, these patterns that begin happening over and over and over again. And so I feel like this is such a needed conversation and I'm really grateful to have a space to be able to talk about that and dig a little bit deeper into that today.

So Marianne, I just, this topic is so incredibly important because done inappropriately or done wrong, we really can make matters worse. After discovery, we know for a fact that the betrayed partner is asking as many questions as that will come to their mind. They'll wake up in the middle of the night with questions and, and they'll try to put together sequences of times when this happened and this happened. And so you get time sequencing. You also get individuals who are, you know, asking a question and wait a second, that doesn't fit with what you told me here. And so now we're trying to make sense of all of these just things that don't make sense. And that's the way the betrayed partner is naturally. They're gonna, we expect that they're gonna ask those questions.

Mm-hmm.

The problem is, is you're asking somebody who is not quite prepared. Don't, they don't understand. I say not quite, they're not even close to being prepared. For what is this story? What happened? How did, how did we get here? And so we typically get, and this is just across the board, we get trickle truth, partial story here, part of it here, part of it in this conversation, part of it in that conversation. Wait a second. Now they don't match. And so now which one's the truth? We want to help couples. Let's talk about how to do it in a way that's productive.

Right. So If I can speak to what you're talking about, Dr. Skinner, not just, I had some information and I'm getting trickle truth and a little bit here and a little bit there. There's oftentimes I wanna grow my partner. I want to get every single tiny detail and I'm in that betrayed state.

Hmm.

So I'm, my nervous system is really I'm probably in a fight or flight place and my nervous system is not in a peaceful, healthy place. And so I might be having more agitation, more triggers. So I'm more heightened and I'm looking and seeking for truth. And one of the hardest conversations I usually have when I'm first starting to work with a betrayed partner is what your partner has disclosed to you according to the research and according to My experience is usually not all of the truth. That's what we find when we sit down in disclosure. It's usually some of the truth, some of the information. And so many times my clients will say, oh, they shared everything with me. I already know everything. And I say, I know that's what they told you. And I really hope that that's the case. But in my experience, that's not usually the case. And sometimes it can feel like I'm Like I'm almost the enemy because I'm saying you need to wait. Your partner's not ready for this. And my clients just want that information. And, and it feels like there are these barriers. Wait, you're saying I can't get this information that I need? And my partner's saying, no, they're not going to give me this information that I need, but I don't know my reality. And I really need to know my reality. And they're already in an agitated state. And it feels so incredibly frustrating. It feels like Like this level of hell. I can't, like, I've already been betrayed. And now there are people that have information that one, you're telling me I can't ask questions right now. And 2, I can't get the information I need to make my decisions. And so there's so much frustration and heightened emotions that I'm just dealing with already in this betrayed state. And so I'm verbalizing this because this is what I see my clients really dealing with. And it's so, so difficult. So just paint that picture that that's what we're looking at.

Yeah. So Marianne, there's something that I think is really important here. Right after discovery, there is usually a lot more conversations, a lot of questions. We have to step back and say sometimes the betraying spouse, the one who was acting out, They aren't, they're not forthright in some cases. Sometimes they very, very much, they'll say everything. But to assume that we have everything, there's always question marks, stories that don't make sense, and timing that doesn't make sense. And so you ask me a question and I give you the answer, but I didn't realize that also in addition to those things, there was this and this and this that was a part of it that You didn't wait. You didn't tell me that when I asked you. It's because you didn't ask me that question and I didn't reveal it. And so then we get this trickle truth, major problematic because they didn't think to answer that question and, or ask that question. And so now we come back and now we've got a different story or parts of the story that were not revealed. And so you typically get these kinds of stories that are built out over time. When we do the proper disclosure, We're asking both partners, the person who's betrayed, to do a thorough evaluation. Think through. We typically will do a full sexual history timeline. We'll do a proper assessment to make sure that we're not missing anything. There's times where I've talked with clients. I'm like, wait a second, let's go back and look at your assessment. Is this a part of your disclosure? If we don't do that, then maybe 6 months down the road, part of this disclosure— well, wait a second. I didn't— I forgot this one. Oh, wait a second. Now, are we rebooting this whole progress that we've made? And so when we say slow it down, we're not saying we're not going to go for the information. We're trying to do it as thoroughly as possible. So we are built upon the foundation of complete truth, not partial truth, not half stories. And the betrayed spouse, their brain, as you said, there's— that's like, wait, I have to wait for this? But without proper preparation, the person who is acting out, they may not have all the details, the story. They may not have thought through some of these things. And so this process, it's so painful to watch because most couples are trying to do this on their own, but they're not doing it well. And they keep recycling into the same patterns and frustration and anger. And you're not answering my question, or all you're doing is asking me questions. That's why we wanna slow it down, do it properly, so we aren't recycling the same things over and over and over again.

Yes. And if I can comment and add to one thing that you said, as the therapist working with the individual who acted out, we're usually working through trauma. We're usually working through a lot of deep shame. We're working through Patterns of negative core beliefs. And that's our work as a therapist, to help our clients unpack a lot of maybe baggage that's been carted around for years and years and years. And so especially at the very beginning, there might be, yeah, I can tell you these things that I did, but the work of a therapist is to help unpack the layers. And this layer And oh, here's another layer. And it can be really delicate work, as you know. And let's go through and, oh, let's look at this. And maybe there was some abuse here that we need to unpack. And we might need to slow down for just a minute as we say, did you realize that maybe this was abuse? Sometimes my clients describe something to me as they go through their sexual history. And I say, wow, to me, that, that sounds like—

Abuse.

That would be defined as sexual abuse. Did you realize that? And my clients will say, oh, I had no idea. And we have to do a little bit of work around, around that. And so we're unpacking some things that my clients have never put into words before. And so they're not ready. They don't even have the words and they may not have understood because most of the time. When we're experiencing trauma, deep shame, abuse, oftentimes we are in survival mode.

Mm-hmm.

Oftentimes we're not thinking really clearly. We're just trying to survive and doing things to numb or cope or self-medicate. And so we're not really thinking really clearly. And so that's the work of the therapist to help hold up the mirror and say, let me see what was going on here and let's make sense of these patterns. Our clients don't have the words. They haven't put that together, and that's our job. So they're not quite ready to share that with their spouse 'cause they don't have that insight yet.

And let me add to this for a second. A betrayed partner will often ask why. That's a very complex question. Why did you lie to me? Why did you do whatever sexual act you did? Why Did you? Why? Why? Why? I'll just say flat out, I don't know if there's ever a good enough why. There's never a good enough answer for the why. But without thinking through that, the betraying spouse can roll off a host of things. I was stressed at work, right? We were fighting. We weren't having enough sex. You were so busy with the children. Do any of those bring any comfort? Heavens no! But that's not the why. Those are all justifications. The deeper why might be childhood experiences, as you were just revealing or talking about, is unresolved issues where there were never boundaries, growing up in a home where there wasn't anything that gave you a foundation of what sexuality even meant, and you discovered it on your own, or sexual abuse. And I could go on and on with with the possibilities. And so when you ask why, if your spouse or partner hasn't had time to think through that, you're going to get a half-baked why. And that's where we get even more problems. It's like, well, you told me this. Well, what's the truth? The deeper we work, when we slow it down, we get more accurate whys. And even that still feels like a justification. I can't blame my current sexual behaviors on my childhood. But it might be a part of it. So there's multiple components to the why, and that's again, that's why it's so helpful for the person who's acting out to really do a deep reflection so they understand. And even then acknowledging, look, I have to take responsibility. There's no justification. And so that's an incredible balance because at the end of the day, if I said why, I'm just a bad person. That doesn't help either. So what is the proper answer for the why? It takes time, awareness, new commitment, and willingness to say, I'm willing to look at my story so I don't repeat it. Because that's the part that I think most people are really looking for. How are you going to avoid doing what you did?

And I 100% agree with you, Dr. Skinner. And if I were a betrayed partner listening to this, I might want to spit. I'm like, no, I don't like, but I don't like this. Like that my initial reaction would be just, yes, I hear that, but I want to resist that. I want to protest against that because I don't want to wait. I want to understand and know my reality. And so I want to push. Yes, cognitively I understand that.

But emotionally.

I don't. Emotionally, I'm hurt emotionally. Emotionally, I want, I want to know what my next step is.

Hmm.

Because I can't trust you. I can't rebuild. I can't make my next steps. Or at least it feels like that until I know my reality. And so I'm saying this because I want to validate what maybe some of our listeners or viewers might be experiencing just as we're having this conversation. It is so real. So if you are in this space, this is a space where I have so much compassion for you and I know how difficult it is. This is so hard. And this is a space where I know we've talked about this a little bit previously, but this is that work where we need supports, where we need places where we can process through this frustration, where we need other people that can Sit with us in this. What do you want to add to that, Dr. Skinner?

The only thing I would want to add is as we go through the questions, which, which is inevitable in the relationship, if we find ourselves recycling the same question over and over again, that's a really good indicator that we probably need to go into a therapist, talk with a therapist about, look, we're recycling through the question and really spend some time working through that response and working through it. a productive way so we can finish the story, the Zeigarnik effect, at least being able to make sense of it. So both partners have a deeper understanding of what occurred, how it happened, and the mindset. Sometimes the betraying spouse, that mindset is really important. That mindset of, I, you know, yes, I was stressed and yes, those things, but boy, those were all justifications. That sounds very different than, oh, I was just stressed or, or You know, I was busy. Those don't answer the question. When you were stressed, that's been a coping strategy. And I look back at it and it goes clear back to when I was in high school, when I was stressed and I discovered it. Now the story makes more sense because I've done some work, past, present, current, looking at where I'm at. That's so much more productive long-term rather than just trying to wing it in the moment.

Okay. So I'm going to throw some questions at you then, Dr. Skinner, because I hear these all the time, but I'm wondering how you respond to them. So I hear betrayed partners who often will come to their spouse or partner and they'll want to just ask a question. Hey, I've just got one question I want to ask you about. And it's just a simple question. I just want to ask you about a question. And then they'll tell me, And then they'll say, I asked my partner or spouse this question, and then my partner froze.

Hmm.

And then took 'em like 5 or 6 hours. I don't know why it took 'em so long. They just could have answered yes or no, but they didn't. It took 'em 5 or 6 hours. Then they got really mad or they exploded at me for asking the question.

Hmm.

I don't know why, but what would you say to that?

Well, there's 3 parts that come to my mind here, right? So you're going to, it's natural to ask a question. In many situations, the person who broke trust, it depends on if they're in therapy or not. Many of them don't, right? It's like, you've asked me this question. And so they're, they're getting defensive. And so that's the other part. Another part of this is, so the question's asked, seems pretty innocuous, not a big deal, but the question's asked. There's something that's happening in the person who broke trust. Sometimes it's shame. Sometimes there's something going on inside of them. Like, if I answer this, it's just going to lead to a fight. Sometimes they've been counseled by a therapist, you know, our goal is to do this in the therapy office. And so now, you know, it's like, do I listen to my counselor or do I answer my spouse's question? Many times they answer the question, but it's not really fully thought through. The better response there is, you know what, I, at the, in this moment, I need to think through what your question is. Can I think about it tonight? And, and, and maybe I'm going to go journal about it so I have more clarity of what is— make sure, let me make sure I understand what you're asking. Again, if we're talking about details and we're preparing for a disclosure, then we've got this on hold. Well, if you've agreed that we're going to do a full disclosure, then really your best strategy is to write down that question and give that to your counselor so they can give it to the person who's acted out so they can prepare and answer that question.

Right.

When we take the time and do it thoroughly, that's ideal. Many couples, they choose not to do that. So they ask the question and then they get into this fight, 2, 3, 4 hours, 2, 3 days. And so if you are in a space where you're working on the disclosure, if you've never had a disclosure, then we need to talk about that disclosure and get a game plan of how we're going to talk about those details. So we can finish some of the stories that are still questioning in the mind. So I don't know, that's a pretty long answer to your question, multiple parts to it. If you're working on disclosure, pushing that and saying, I've got this question, writing it down and sending it to your therapist, I think is really one of the best strategies.

Yeah, I think it's that place in between, at least that I see with my clients, that is so difficult in that I want this answer. And their partner freezes because they, they know that if I answer that question for you, it's, it's like I'm backed into a corner. If I answer that question for you, I'm not prepared to answer it because I can't just say yes or no because there's other parts of it, or it will— Cause you to ask other parts of it, or there's more to it. And that will lead to a, you know, that's just kind of letting all the cats out of the bag. And I'm not ready to share all of that with you. And I don't think you're ready to do that. We're planning on doing a disclosure where I need to have support with this and you do. And so I'm not ready to share this. I know you talk about this in your book. I see this freeze. I'm not ready. to answer that. I wanna share. I'm not ready. You're asking me this. I don't know what to do, but I don't wanna lie to you either. So I feel so stuck. I can't lie to you, but I don't wanna answer you. I mean, I don't wanna give you the answer right now cuz I'm not ready, but I do wanna answer you. And so I feel like I can't do anything.

So there's a really important point here when couples have communication. And I think as a field, we talk about communication skills, you know, listening, Mm-hmm. But you used a word interesting a couple times, they freeze. Well, a freeze response to the betrayed partner is, you don't care, I'm not important, obviously you don't love me because if you did, you would respond. I mean, so you're being defensive, you're hiding something. My interpretation is gonna be that because when someone's frozen, the natural interpretation is gonna be something not, it's not gonna be positive.

Right. So if I'm betrayed and you just froze when I asked you a question, my response will be, you're hiding something.

Right. And so that communication of, look, that's a great question. Let me write it down. Let me think about it, is already a more appropriate response. Let me, you know, talk with my therapist, make sure that I'm answering this because this is a very important question. Now I'm validating it and I'm working on it. This is now something that I'm aware of that you want me to address.

Right.

That's a more productive way than doing it, than freezing up and saying nothing. So there's one other key part here. Couples need to learn, Marianne, how to regulate in those moments, not just through words, through the body. And that's where the Intimacy Repair Method that I've been working on is so focused, because most couples, they don't regulate in those moments. If they could learn to regulate in those moments, They could be so much more productive. That's what I've been trying to help couples learn to do. And I'm just concerned that we just, we just rinse and repeat the same unhealthy, unproductive cycles. Learning how to regulate in those moments so we don't freeze, so we communicate effectively, that's a skill. And both partners unfortunately are impacted by it, and they both can benefit from learning how to be more productive in those moments.

And I'm— what I'm hearing you say is I need to learn how to regulate. My partner needs to learn how to regulate. And in that space, ideally, we need to learn how to help each other regulate or learn how to communicate in ways that can help each other unfreeze or to reflect back or to attune, whatever it is that we need to do to help each other get unstuck and communicate in healthy ways so that we're— able to deescalate what's going on in that space?

I'm most interested in a productive conversation, not a conversation that leads to fight, flight, freeze. Those are unproductive conversations. We don't get anywhere. We rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat. It doesn't work. Learning how to regulate during difficult conversations has to be the foundation of successful communication. We can talk about the details all we want, but if we're not regulating, we're going to, at some point, we're going to short circuit and there's going to be a fight or an argument or a disconnect. And we're not going to resolve it. Productive conversations. And that's really what the model of the 3-step process of doing a disclosure, doing an impact letter, doing emotional restitution is a foundation of how to do things productively, how to do it better. And really an important part. Many couples, they don't get there and they don't because they're trying to do it on their own. Right.

And I think one, one word that we have not talked about that I think I would want to just bring in maybe as an overall umbrella for what we've been talking about today It's also just bringing in some boundaries into the relationship just prior to doing a formal therapeutic disclosure, saying like, let's create some boundaries. And this, we might want to use our therapist to help us determine what the healthy boundaries are, but we might need some boundaries around what we are asking, what we are talking about, what we're not, because we're recognizing that we don't want to get dysregulated. We need to figure out how to understand that we're both in very tenuous places emotionally, that we're both working through very difficult emotions. The betraying partner is working through this childhood, you know, earlier life, going through all of their sexual history, trying to sort through it. And they're trying to stay sober.

Right.

They're trying to work recovery while they're going through their Their whole history, which can be difficult because they're bringing up things that they probably don't want to relive or rehash. Well, the betrayed partner is trying to make sense of the reality and living with the things that they don't know. And so we have a lot of heightened emotions. And so we've got to figure out how do we create some healthy boundaries around what we do address and what we don't address in our relationships so that we can Keep each other safe.

There's nothing easy about what we're talking about today after discovery. It's just so painstakingly slow, frustrating, difficult. But there's one important point that you said that I'd really like to emphasize as kind of a final thought for me. You can't rush a process, but you need to be consistently working towards a goal, towards a finish line. And there are times where people have such extensive trauma and who've been acting out, That emotionally, like you said, as they look at some of their story and they look at some, especially if there's a lot of extensive childhood trauma that's really never been looked at or explored, that takes more time. And that can be very painful for the betrayed partners. Like, why isn't this moving forward? And that's where clear communication between the therapist, the couple, helping them understand. So those are different scenarios or situations than many couples. So that's why this is so complex. Like, again, every case has its unique pace and we can't say you should be done with this in a month, or you should be done with this in 3 months, or you should be done with this. Every case is extremely unique. And that's why guided support can be so much more productive rather than just trying to figure it out on your own. Because when I'm looking at, say, my sexual history timeline, if I've got extensive trauma back there, I have to learn how to regulate my emotions so I don't go back to old coping mechanisms when I look at my trauma. And so this process, that's why professional support can be so important in this whole process. If you really want to accelerate it, just get proper support to go through these difficult times. Your final thoughts, Miriam?

I know this is a difficult topic. It's a painful topic because I see it in my office so often. And so I'm grateful that we've, that we're having this conversation. And as always, I usually come back to that self-compassionate place. But if this applies to you, if you connect in this place, I just invite you to see if you can find a place within yourself for some self-kindness, some self-love, and also for your partner. I'm hoping that you could see something where you could say, oh, I can, I can identify with something they talked about today for me and perhaps something for my partner as well. And I'm hoping there was something that was meaningful for you today that we talked about and to give yourself some space and grace and say, yeah, yeah, Dr. Skinner and Marianne, what they talked about today, this is a really hard process. And wherever we are in it, it's a process. I do not ever judge anyone's process because, as you said, they're individual. And I trust the process of wherever my clients are at. That's, they're usually doing the very best that they can with the tools they have, with where they're at. And there's a reason they are where they are. And so give yourself love, kindness, and tenderness. And thank you for being here with us today.

Thank you, Marianne. And thank you to our listeners for being with us. So you've been listening to the Human Intimacy Podcast with Dr. Kevin Skinner and Marianne Michels. May you be blessed, have a good week, and we look forward to having you with us next week. Please share this podcast with others if you're finding it beneficial for you. And one final thought, if you have any questions for us, we love to answer questions. info@humanintimacy.com. May you be blessed in this upcoming week. We'll talk to you soon.

Thank you. Smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh. Something surrounds you. It's like you're shining, you're a star in the night. Smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh. Something surrounds you. It's like you're shining, you're a star in the night.