Why Is Healing Taking So Long? Navigating Trust, Setbacks, and Different Paces After Betrayal (Episode #134)

There's something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh. Something's around you.

Welcome to the Human Intimacy Podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Michaelis, licensed clinical social worker. Marianne, this is podcast 134. Today I would like to answer some of the questions, whether it's a podcast listener or whether it's maybe clients that have asked us questions. I'm gonna get us started, but I want to think about it in the sense of, if you have a question, send us a question at info@humanintimacy.com. Today, getting us started, Marianne, this is a question. Why does healing seem to take so long even when we're both trying?

It's a great question. Why does healing take so long even when we're both trying? I think first of all, We're talking about relationships. And one of the most challenging parts, I think, if we're talking about betrayal in a relationship, there's a lot of nuances, but it can often feel like I'm taking a step forward and 2 steps back and a step forward and 2 steps back. So I think one of the first things is what I often tell my betrayed clients is that When we're dealing with unwanted sexual acting out behaviors, if we're dealing with pornography addiction, we're dealing with sex addiction, these behaviors usually are process addictions, meaning they have to do with the process that's going on in our brain. We're often dealing with shame. We're often dealing with trauma. We're often dealing with patterns from childhood. And so if I'm saying, hey, I want you just to be sober and to be in perfect recovery. And we're going to move forward and just don't do that behavior again. Or if I'm the one who's been acting out, I'm like, I'm not going to ever do this again. That would be so great and easy, but it doesn't usually look like that. What we usually see is we've got to change a lot of the processes of how we are interacting. We're dealing with our neurochemistry, what's going on with our brain. We're dealing with how we're interpreting information, what we're doing with it. And what I tell my clients is it's like we're dealing with a freeway in Atlanta. If you've ever driven in a really big city, it's like 8 lanes that are paved. And that's what's going on in our brain. We've got these neural pathways that look like an Atlanta freeway. And I'm asking my clients to take a machete and start creating a brand new trail up a hill that's got jungle and is so dense and they're building something brand new. And so when we're talking about why isn't this just an easy stop it, let's move forward, because we've got a lot of different elements that we're working with and we've got a lot of different, even parts in our own system that are showing up that have jobs that they're doing. I have learned to use this addiction or these behaviors. I've learned to use them to help me cope with things. So we're having to unlearn and then we're having to learn how to be relational. I probably haven't learned how to regulate my emotions very well. I probably haven't learned how to communicate very well or express my emotions or even find the words to try and talk about what I'm feeling or what's going on because I've been using my behaviors as tools to numb or to cope with that instead. And so We're asking our clients to not just deal with trauma, not just deal with wounding from their past, family of origin issues, what they grew up with that was their normal, but we're asking them to start working on the whole process of how their brain works. So it's a full entire remodel. So I think that's where I would just start. And If you've ever done a construction remodel, you think it's going to take a month or 2 months, and then 6 months later you're often still working on it.

And I think if I could add on to this, when we are working on our own recovery, it doesn't necessarily mean that we are working on the relational recovery. So a lot of times we assume that if you're sober, working through trauma for the betrayed, That somehow the relationship is automatically gonna get better. So I think we have to understand that we still have to learn how to be relational. We have to learn how to do things that maybe we've never done, sharing of emotions. We've talked about the different types of intimacy, develop those types of intimacy, but I don't even think we can get there until we understand ourselves well enough, have done enough emotional work that when things are difficult, we can hang in the relationship conversations that are necessary. But for me, the biggest answer here is the nervous system. Our nervous system doesn't just simply say, okay, now you're safe because you told me you were going to stop. Right? That's just not the way the nervous system works. The nervous system is its own part of you that is determining, trying to determine safe, not safe. Is this a threat? And after betrayal, especially if there's been deception for months and years, It's not like you can just simply say, oh yeah, I'm going to override that. Now you're safe. The body just doesn't work that way. So from a nervous system perspective, our bodies take time, experience to slow down and assess this idea that now I'm going to feel safe again. And so that would be my primary answer to the question is you can't rush your body's way to this sense of safety. It takes its own pace. And it does it based on life experiences, which I think leads us into the next question that you have that came in from, I think it was a client. I'd love to address that. And that has something to do with behaviors that are maybe lying or hidden behaviors that have taken time for this person to come completely honest or truthful. So I'd love you to read that question, Marianne.

Sure. This question is, after betrayal, how do we distinguish? So wanting to understand between 3 different topics. How do we distinguish between a recovery slip, ordinary human imperfection, and a return to the behaviors or the patterns that led to the addiction or that made the addiction possible? And then how should the betrayed partner be responding to each one?

So obviously if there is a relapse, just from my perspective, and then I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. If there, if there's a relapse, Then we both have to say, what is the boundary that we've established around a relapse? And I think that awareness is just an underlying question. Like, do we have as a couple an agreement or an awareness of if this happens, how are we going to respond? Are you responding your way? I may have to choose my own way. As we talked previously, boundaries can be one-directional or bidirectional. But I can simply say, if there is a relapse, Then this is how I'm going to respond, not necessarily what I need you to do. This is what I'm going to do. The other part of it is a slip. We have to understand what a slip even means in our relationship. And so I think it has to be defined. You have to define these things, what we've agreed upon. And if you don't have that, then you may even argue about, well, that was a slip or no, that wasn't a slip. Well, we need to have a clear expectation of what we're committing to.

So we talked about the return of the relational patterns, ordinary human imperfection, and a slip.

So ordinary human imperfection, that, that one, ordinary human imperfections. We all have them. What does that mean? I wonder, like, how would you interpret that, Marianne?

I was thinking, even going back to that previous question that we were answering, it would be so easy to say, okay, I'm just going to work on my recovery. And not the relationship. And in a sense, we're not working on the relationship. However, there's still a relationship here. We've oftentimes got a life that we're sharing. We've got families and jobs and kids and responsibilities. And so even though we might be saying, hey, I'm just working on my individual stuff right now, there's still a relationship going on. And if a partner's triggered or the conversations, there's still a lot of dynamics that are going on. So then when we're also talking about ordinary human imperfections, you're right. That's tricky to define. I hear it and go, yeah, that's just, we're all humans and we all make mistakes. I think the question is, as it's being asked, is more like when my partner says they're going to do something and they forget to do it. Maybe it's not a recovery thing, but they say, hey, I'm going to have a conversation with our child. And then they don't. Or they do something that might seem inconsequential, but the betrayed partner, I think that question is, so am I looking at this and saying, is, is that a step towards, they're going to, they're acting out? I don't know if they're acting out. I don't know if they're being not trustworthy. They didn't do what they said they were going to do.

Hmm. I have something to say on this one, 'cause I think this is a very important one when we start looking at healing in the relationship. If I tell you I'm gonna do something and I don't do it, your nervous system, again, I function a lot from the nervous system. Your nervous system is going to say, that feels like a threat. You've told me something that's not congruent with what you've told me you're gonna do. Are there other areas that you've lied to me? Oh wait, what does my brain say? Check, check, check, check, check, check. Red flag, red flag, red flag. Big, because even the simplest things, if you say you're gonna do it and you don't do it, are going to be a trigger for the betrayed spouse. And so this is more often than not even a forgetful thing, ordinary human behavior, maybe in the past. But when I'm working recovery, I have to make sure I'm very careful to do what I say I'm gonna do. Because if I don't, my betrayed partner's gonna say, that's just more evidence, more evidence, more evidence that you're hiding something, that you're not being honest with me. And you may say, well, it's not that big of a deal. It was right. It was just XYZ. No, you told me you were going to do something. And when we understand the process of building trust in the nervous system perspective, I need unpredictability, puts my red flags up and says, alert, there's something missing off here. And I'm naturally going to pull back physically.

That makes a lot of sense to me. My husband had some specific things. He often got a little bit forgetful. And that was a sign for me, like, hmm, something that— something's— I'm noticing there's a lot of forgetfulness going on. And I was able later on, as we started talking about things, I was able to say, oh, this is a sign for me. This is a red flag that tells me that there's something going on. And so even now, When I notice, hey, here's a pattern of he's being absent-minded or forgetting things, he and I can have a conversation about it. I say, hey, I'm noticing this.

Hmm.

But it makes sense that our nervous system, or we're watching, we're saying like, hey, what's going on? Hmm. I'm noticing this. And my body says, hey, check it out. You might not be safe because you've seen this pattern before. And how do we respond to each one? I think it's going to depend on where we're at in the relationship. If I'm really early in the relationship, my partner can be saying, no, I'm fine. Everything's fine. You're no. And so this is once again where I have to listen to my intuition, where I need to listen to myself, where I need to kind of really watch, listen to my nervous system. But if I'm in a place where we can have a mature conversation, What's happening in that attunement, in that conversation, how my partner's showing up is going to be really informative for me as well about where are we. And I think this is, once again, this is one of the challenges with betrayal is our partner, when our partner has lied to us in the eyes, looking at us saying, no, That's not the reality. It's, it's difficult to rebuild that, to get to that place where, okay, okay, I am okay and I can believe you. And I think once again, going back to that first question that we asked, why does it take so long? It takes so long because oftentimes there's been a lot of damage and it takes a long time to rebuild. these patterns?

Seemingly simple things, saying I'm going to do something, pick up milk, forgot, do something with the kids, forgot, which are ordinary human behaviors, as the person wrote, they just are going to be triggering. And so for me, it's actually more than that I forgot, it's how I deal with the forgot. If I say to you, look, it's not that big of a deal, I'm minimizing the impact on you. Contrast that with, oh man, I did it again. I let you down. I need to own that. I told you I would. I've got to correct that. That's on me. If that triggered you, I understand that. That's on me. Concept, owning it is very different than being defensive. And I think that is the relationship turning point. If I can own it versus being defensive, that's gonna lead to 2 very different outcomes. You might be way more patient with me if I own it and then I course correct. If I just own it and then I keep doing it and keep doing it and keep doing it, then it's a little boy who cried wolf. If you remember that story from your childhood, I do. When the little boy cried wolf and there really wasn't a wolf, and then when the wolf came, nobody was there to help. We've got to build that trust. And so if I tell you I'm sorry and I need to own it, when I own it, that should lead to behaviors that build the trust because I recognize I'll go get that milk. I told you I'd do that last night. I'm going to do it tonight. And I do it. Those are the things that show me course correction when I've been forgetful.

And I think it's part of that humility. It's being able to show up and say, yeah, I made a mistake and I can see how that impacted you. I think it's, we're really talking about this sense of where we're really coming from. And that's what we pick up. Is my partner defensive or is my partner able to acknowledge, yeah, I did mess up and I want to fix that. And I can see how this is for you. And so the healing of the relationship, I think, is able to heal based on where we are, the way that we were able to show up and connect and interact.

Okay. So Marianne, let's, for time's sake, let's move on to a couple of these other questions, make sure we get through them. How can we rebuild trust when one partner still feels the need to ask questions or seek reassurance. Your thoughts?

I think in any relationship, if a partner has a question, I wonder why that would be a problem. And so if I'm asking a question, if I'm asking for reassurance, there's a reason why. And my partner can either be defensive and tell me, I've already answered that for you. Why are you asking me again? Oh my goodness. Just move on. Forget about it. It's over. I already— like, there can be some really harsh responses to that. But one of the things I know that we've talked about is if your partner asks you the question 100 times, there's something that they're needing from that. There's a reason why they're asking that question over and over and over again. There's something going on with them. And so looking at the relationship, how do we engage and say, I can see that there must be something else that you're needing here. Help me understand what else it is.

And so in that last response, that is acknowledging that the question is there. Maybe I've answered that 10 times or 100 times, but it's still there. Going back to what we've talked about previously, the Zeigarnik effect, where we typically think about the things that are unresolved in our minds. And so it's usually an unresolved question. I will say that if you've asked me the same question and I've given different responses, that can be problematic because which one is it? And I often hear that one where someone says, well, you told me this and then you told me this and then you told me that. So I don't know which one is it. And so that leads to confusion because people haven't properly prepared what the real answer is. And so they're just, and I call it winging it when it's a really important conversation. If you don't know the answer to something, or you're trying to think through clarity, what actually happened here, tell your spouse, you know, before I answer this, I really need to think through this so I answer accurately because I haven't done that well in the past. If you keep talking about the same thing over and over again, you probably need to change the question. What is it that I'm missing? Or what is it that I'm not understanding about this question that is extremely important? Because you've brought it up and I need to make sure that I understand. what you're asking here, and then I may need some time to think about it and get better clarity rather than just on the spot winging it. Now, if you do that properly, it still may not answer the question. And I want to be very clear here. There are times where the answer to a why— like, for example, why did you do that? Contrast that with what did you do?

I—

the details of what you did is different than why you did it. The why takes more time to understand. Why did I do that? And earlier we talked about why healing takes so long. You talked about 8-lane highway. Well, there was elements of my childhood, and there's elements of this, and then these are the lies I told myself, and this is what was happening in my life at the time that I acted out. And so all of that is the why. There's rarely just a simple why. So Marianne, as I look at this, I think in that interaction, if things keep coming up, we really need to push the pause button and do more work around it to understand what's really being asked and take the time to do that right.

And I really liked, as you were modeling that earlier, Dr. Skinner, you stepped into a place where you were saying, I'm going to tell you what's going on with me. I'm not answering your question because I'm not in a place where I can answer your question, but Let me tell you what's going on with me right now. I need some time to go and figure this out because I'm feeling on the spot or frozen or whatever it may be. But you stepped out of the engagement of, I'm trying to answer your question right now and I'm flustered, to, uh, I'm observing and I'm narrating to you or telling you what's going on with me so that I can step back and get a little bit more clarity. I noticed that, and I think that's really powerful.

Well, there's, there's wisdom in slowing this process down. If you find that you're recycling the same questions, like in this question, how can we rebuild trust when one partner still feels the need to ask questions? Your spouse is going to ask questions. In fact, I would almost say be grateful that they're asking questions because they're still interested. At the same time, if we recycle the same questions over and over and over again, Then we've got to ask a different question, like, what prevents this from being resolved? What, what we need to slow that down as a couple, as an individual. Let me make sure I'm understanding what you're asking. That is where I think a lot of people make mistakes because they try to do it on the spot. And what happens is they're often winging it. I don't know. I just want you to stop asking me questions. If it's not true, don't say it. Slow down. Take time to make sure that you are reflecting honestly, what's in your heart, what the experience was, so you can accurately describe what's happening. So many times I see people recycling issues, they're not resolving them. And I think that that's— if you're stuck there, get into therapy, slow the process down, make sure you work through some of these questions.

I'm so glad you said that, get into therapy. I was working with a client recently and oftentimes, you know, my clients will say, I get up, Makes sense logically, but it doesn't feel right. Like I'm stuck. I feel like I can't get past it. And as I was talking with this client about something in their past, something they had a lot of, just, they were really struggling to forgive themselves for. I could see it objectively and I could say, well, what about this? What about this? Sounds like you did the best that you could. And I could see it very objectively, but my client didn't want to forgive themselves or they weren't able to let themselves. In that space. And as we worked through it, we started working with their parts and trying to understand, where have you felt this before? What, you know, where does this show up? When we were able to recognize, oh, this is what my younger part used to do. This is my part that used to show up with my parent who wasn't healthy. And this is a story that I made up about this. And This is what I was doing to take care of myself when my parent wasn't healthy. This is that same thing happening here. When we could start to work with that part and reason with that, my client was able to say, oh, holy cow. This whole thing, it just lifted. It completely lifted. And they were able to move through it. Obviously, I didn't know that my client was carrying—

Yeah.

This history, that these memories, but We might get stuck with those questions because we might need to do some more work. And so that might also be the case as well. And that is where I think therapy can be really helpful for getting support and help.

All right. Last question today.

I think the next question is really just talking about the different pacing. And so what happens when one partner is ready to reconnect, And the other partner's not at all.

I think that's extremely common. So I like the question a lot because you might have a spouse who is really working hard in their recovery and they're longing for this connection that they've been missing. And the other spouse who's emotionally not, not there, not in that space, usually that might be the betraying spouse, one who broke trust. And the betrayed, the betrayed's like, I'm not ready for connection. And the betrayer's like, I don't know what else to do. And so I think that pacing is understanding you can't pressure connection. Safety is a physiological thing. Your mind relaxes into a relationship. And it's not that many times that the betrayed doesn't want it. Their nervous system says, I don't know if I'm safe enough to connect. And so you have to be patient. The moment you push or force that, you're actually going to get a retreat because it's a pursuer-distancer. relationship in there and I'm distancing because I don't feel safe, the best thing you can do is let your spouse or partner know, I'm here, I'm committed to the recovery process, and I'd like a deeper connection, but I know I need to take your lead. Especially if I'm the betrayer, I know that I've hurt you. I've got to step back, but I just want you to know that I'd like more conversations, or I'd like to have more, whatever's gonna be helpful for us. I would like to do that so you feel safer with me.

I think I also see that from another perspective in that I see, I often see betrayed partners who, yes, I found out that I was betrayed. This really stinks. It's really painful. They find therapy, they're reading the books, they're listening to the podcasts, they're doing everything. They're just jumping in saying like, okay, Let's get in here. Let's fix this. And I also see them dealing with a lot of frustration that they're like, hey, let's get going. Like, let's fix this. I don't want this pain. I want to get as far away from this pain as I can. Before the betrayal, I thought that I might've thought that we were okay. And then my whole world blew up and we weren't okay. And I want to get back to that okay place. So. I am super motivated. And sometimes the betraying partner is going really slow or not changing. And there can be an awful lot of frustration and disappointment.

And I've seen that one too, because what you're describing there is where the betraying spouse is like, I don't even see this as a problem. I don't— right? What's the big deal? Or why can't we just move on? Not seeing the deep rupture that's occurred could be minimizing it. Like, I don't even see what the issue is. Or they're in a place where they're not sure they want the relationship. And it goes to a concept by Bill Doherty where he talks about in his discernment counseling, like, we have to first of all step back and say, are we even on the same page? Like, do we want to repair this relationship? Then the we is still an individual question. Do I want to repair this relationship? Do I want to work towards reconciliation or a better marriage in this situation? Or not? And I think that's really an important question that's really hard for many people to ask. Like, do I want this? Sometimes people are not sure that they want it because of the conflict, because of the fighting. And then if you don't see it as a problem, it's even more of a situation like, wait a second, this is not the marriage I signed up for. Are we even on the same page? And so, yeah, in that kind of a situation, it can be very painful because you've got 2 people at a very different pace. And it does not mean you're going to reconcile. In fact, you might find out that because you're not on the same page, it's really because you don't share the same desires anymore or the same values of what you think is important. And that has to be understood really from the onset.

And I think that's really difficult because we might be avoiding some of these hard conversations because we might not be ready to— either partner or both partners might not be ready to say, Here's where I'm really at. Or I often see partners who may start out with the same shared values and then they get down the road and there's discovery or disclosure, and there may be some discrepancies in what we value, but the partners might not be quite ready for the conversations to say, hey, we're in completely different places. And is this working for us? And Mm-hmm. Maybe we don't know how to even work through these discrepancies of our values.

Yeah.

And there's just a lot of work and a lot of sorting through things. And I think it takes a lot of time in this space as well. I wish we could say that any of this is fast. I don't think that recovery and healing are ever quick because it's learning and growing and I think it's also a day-by-day, kind of like, you know, little babies and all of us as humans, we grow, we're growing every day. Oftentimes it's imperceptible. It's hard to see.

Change is never easy. It's never fast. It usually is a process. I can't say never. Change can occur fast with the right information, the right data, and a heart that's open to saying, I'm going to be there. Even then, it's not like it's going to take time, but I might be in the mindset that says this is changing. That feels fast. The whole process takes time. So moment to moment, it can feel fast, but it's really a big process. All right, Marianne, my final thought on that last question would be, if you find that you have differences, that means you've got to figure out your core values and the boundaries that are going to go around your core values. Your spouse may not be on the same page as you, but you need to be able to communicate what type of relationship you want and be authentic in that kind of relationship. Are we on the same page?

Yeah. And there might be some grief and a lot of sadness that go around or go along with that, realizing maybe we're not on the same page and what does that mean for us and what are our options? What do we do now? There's a lot of considerations with that.

And those are hard situations.

Yeah.

All right. To our listeners, viewers, thank you so much for being with us. You're listening or watching the Human Intimacy Podcast, Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Michaelis. If you want to ask your question and you'd like us to address it, info@humanintimacy.com. Thank you so much, Marianne, for your time.

You're welcome.

And you guys have a great week.

Thanks, Dr. Skinner.

That I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh. Something's around you. It's like you're shining, you're starring.