Betrayal Trauma Is Not Codependency (Episode #131)

Welcome to the Human Intimacy Podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Michalis, licensed clinical social worker. Marianne, as we go through the summer months, One of the things that I often get to do this time of the year is I do a training for certified sex addiction therapists, CSATs. And one of the things that I ask the therapist, and this is kind of the intro into today's topic, is what's the difference between the betrayal trauma that is experienced from sexual betrayal, infidelity, affairs, and codependency? Because historically we've heard a lot of people talk about addiction with codependency and merge those together. Like, Well, if somebody's codependent, you know, is there, does that mean there's an addict? Somebody who's addicted to drugs or alcohol. So your thoughts on this betrayal trauma codependency.

Well, I am in a PhD program right now, Dr. Skinner, and just last weekend I was in a course and they were teaching all about the, the family cycles, the family patterns with addiction, and they taught all about the codependency. And, and I was like, but wait, what about betrayal trauma? This is like the carve-out. When we have sex addiction, there has been, as you know, between 2007, 2005 to 2015, all of this research came out saying like, this doesn't fit for betrayed partners. This really doesn't fit. We're shifting to the research is validating more of a trauma response from betrayal. From sexual acting out behaviors. And this really, really matches PTSD symptoms, not the co-addict theory. And so there's been a big shift from this, and I was disappointed that it wasn't addressed. And I know there's been a huge shift from that, and it's difficult because some of the literature, some of the groups, some of the support groups still identify with this co-addict theory. And, and so I know today we're going to be talking a lot about the codependency, the co-addict. And I think there are some elements that, that we do see of codependency that show up oftentimes in our clients, not necessarily related to the betrayal trauma. It may or it may not, not, but just in some of the behaviors that we show up with. And so I know today we want to really maybe try to demystify and unpack a little bit of what is codependency and even separated a little bit out from the betrayal trauma.

Yeah. So if you had to define codependency, if we were to look at the specific traits, like a trait of co-with-dependent upon another human being, I think in some ways, if we just looked at it, just that raw definition, we all are dependent on other people. It starts in our infancy. I'm dependent upon my parent as a child. It is necessary. I'm dependent. Dependency. So that context is, I need you. I wonder about then the transition as adults, if that too happens, where I've seen people say, well, I lost my identity in this relationship. And so sometimes people would say, is that codependent? That's a question that I've heard people say, well, I lost my identity. So yes, could that be codependence when I've lost self? My answer would be yes, you could lose yourself in a relationship where you're dependent upon another person, where you've lost self. I think that's entirely possible. But when we looked in this, Marianne, is maybe for me the bigger differentiator. In the study that we published, the trauma inventory for partners of sex addicts, or what I now call the trauma inventory for betrayed partners, there was included in there a codependency scale. And that scale did not have a correlation with PTSD symptoms. It did not have a correlation with the, what we call the PCL-5, the Post-Traumatic Stress Checklist. So there is not a link between PTSD symptoms and codependency. There's the relationship didn't, didn't exist.

So you're saying they're two different, very different components that we're looking at?

Extremely different. They're not the same. And so I use the PTSD model because that's what the research shows is over 70 to 80% of betrayed partners show PTSD symptoms. But historically, and I want to go back in the background, when we've thought about codependency, we've typically thought about the alcoholic whose wife calls up the, you know, the owner of the business and says, hey, my spouse is not feeling well today. And so the action is I'm protecting them from consequences of their substance use or misuse. That's one example.

And I would call that enabling. I've got a couple of other examples. Can I bring them?

Yeah, yeah, please do.

And these don't even have to do with addiction. So if you and I have had an agreement, say that we're dividing household chores up and we've said, I'm gonna do this and you'll do this. And I'm doing my agreement and I notice that you're slacking a little bit. Maybe I say something to you very broadly about it, but I don't want to address it because I'm afraid I'm afraid that if I address it fully with you, I'm afraid that you might get mad at me.

Hmm.

Or I'm afraid that you might get really depressed. It might set you off into a depression. You might get suicidal. You might do things that I don't like. And so I'm just going to avoid it. And so. Instead of saying anything, I might really vaguely address it. I'm shrinking. I'm not showing up authentically. I'm thinking I'm protecting you cuz I don't want you to, to have these emotions. I'm really protecting myself. But what will end up happening with that is I'm gonna have this resentment growing and I'm going to get smaller and smaller and smaller. And this relationship means I'm not even showing up at some point.

Yeah.

That's not a relationship. Yeah.

So you described it as conflict avoidant. I'm avoiding all types of conflict. So that means that I'm not giving a voice. I'm not expressing what I want or what I think because I'm trying to protect you. And so in relationships, we, again, we are dependent upon each other at times, right? We need each other in situations of everything from I need you to help me with something I can't do. And so what do we call that, right? We need each other. I think that that's just a very important concept. So is that codependency? That's not what we're talking about. We're talking where we lose our identity to the point where we're afraid, specifically, we're afraid to say things, we're afraid to do things because we're protecting an individual. A few years ago, I had a situation where I was observing a family and the parents were so scared. To call the police on their daughter. The father said, look, we're not going to protect you anymore. Really hard to watch. Really hard to watch. But what I observed is growth because they chose not to protect her anymore. Dependency is to enable a behavior, to not have a voice. And we can enable unhealthy behaviors because we don't want the conflict.

I think that word enabling is so powerful. Because I think codependency usually has enabling behaviors that go along with it because it allows the behavior to continue. If I don't call you out for not doing the job that you had agreed to do, that means I'm allowing the bad behavior. I'm enabling it.

So Marianne, I think there's two other parts that I would bring up here just as it relates to this idea of defining codependency. We've already talked about, we maybe were afraid to speak up, but there's another part of what it does to us internally. And you brought it up earlier. When I can't speak up, I do become resentful because I'm afraid to bring something up. And I may be afraid and I'm scared that you'll leave the relationship or you will— something will happen. And so in not doing so, I build that resentment. And I think that's such an important thing that we highlight there, because when you start resenting somebody, you can't connect with them because they become somebody that you're frustrated with. And so it perpetuates a cycle of unhealthiness because I am not speaking up and I'm not saying what I'm feeling internally. And then what happens is I resent you. I hold back and that then influences you and you sense that I'm holding back. And so it's this interaction where, what's wrong? Well, nothing's wrong. Right? And so we don't talk about the really important issues, that kind of a relationship undealt with. Is really not going to be healthy intimacy as, as we really want to achieve in life.

Right. And, and I, I paint that picture and I'm sure there's a lot, there's a myriad of ways this can go, but I paint it with anxiety, depression, and anger are 3 of the ways that I see that, that, that coming out. So I can see the anxiety of I'm anxious about interacting with you. So I might be avoiding you because, yeah, I need to have these conversations with you, but I don't want to. And so I'm avoiding them, or I'm depressed because I need to have these conversations with you. So I'm turning inward and I'm shutting down, or I've got this resentment that's been building, building, building, and it may come out sideways. I might start being grumpy with other people. I might start hurting myself. I might start acting out in other ways. So sometimes we call it sideways anger. So it's not coming out directly at you, but it's coming out every other place. Or this is where we often, I often talk about, you know, I'm mad about the socks or I'm mad about the toothpaste lid or things that don't matter, but I'm mad about the inconsequential things. I'm not, but it's the things that aren't being addressed. And so it can come out in all of these different ways where That's not the issue at all. But it's not being dealt with. And all of these things cause significant impact on, one, my mental health and also my nervous system. And that's going to impact all of my other relationships. And there's this ripple effect that just goes out everywhere. Yeah.

And as you describe that, I look at this as a component of a relationship that gets stuck. It's like the engine can't move. It's like it's frozen up because we're not talking about important things. We're not talking about difficult things. So that's, I think, maybe how I would look at this. It makes it so we get stuck. So earlier I said there was one thing. Here's the second thing: resentment. The second thing that I wanted to bring up here is when we as a couple can't talk about these things, there is an aftermath that you can't calculate. So when I am not saying something and then you recognize it, I could be enabling something because I'm in denial that it's even happening. So my codependency is because we're not talking about this, I might sense it, I might feel it, but we're not talking about it. And if I don't allow you to talk about it and I minimize it, then you— again, people say, how can I be codependent when I didn't know you were doing this for 15 or 20 or 30 years? You can't label that as codependency. And that's one of my bigger problems when we use a codependency model, or people use codependency model with betrayal. It's like, how can I be any part of this when I didn't even know, or I felt it and I was gaslit, or I was lied to? And so I— we have to bring that to the forefront of saying, look, you can't be responsible for deception.

When we were first married, I remember sitting down with my husband and saying Hey, let's talk about our relationship. Let's talk about the things that I might be doing that might be driving you crazy, and I'll talk about some things. And my husband said, oh, everything's great, fine. I was like, really? Because I've got a list. Well, let's talk about these things. Let's— I want to have a good relationship. Let's, let's fix things. I'm sure I'm, you know, I'm sure there's things that drive you bonkers. No, everything's fine. And so as you're talking about I didn't know about these things. How can you fix anything that's not being addressed? So I hear that part. That's, that's one place that my mind goes, but I really also want to address this other branch that you talked about. Years later, I actually remember talking to a church leader and, and we were talking about, this is a challenge. We've been struggling in our relationship with this betrayal. It's been going on for a really long time and we just barely started working through it. Talking about it. And this church leader looked at me and said, well, you know, this is because of your past. You know, we know that, you know, you are in this relationship because of the patterns in your past, and, and that's why you're in this relationship, because this is, you know, this is codependency. I will tell you that I felt like he took his fist and he punched me in the gut. It took my breath away and I wanted to vomit all over him. What he told me is, this is your fault. And to me, I just want to validate what you said. I had no idea whatsoever that I would be betrayed in my relationship. I had no idea. And I didn't feel like this was because of my past or where I had come from or what felt familiar to me. It was deception. There was deception and dishonesty. And that does not serve anyone to say, this is because this is what was familiar to you and you're codependent.

Painful. And if you had thrown up, I wouldn't have blamed you. But along those lines, you and I, our clients have heard so many different things of shifting the responsibility. In my TED Talk, The Other Side of Infidelity, I share a story from somebody who told their mother about what their husband had done. And the mother just simply said, well, you know how you are. Again, it's just one of those lines like, wait a second. How I am. And so the blame there. So other side of this coin, and this is something that's really important, I can be dependent, so dependent that I don't form my identity. I don't form a self. And if we're going to talk about a solution, and if there is codependency, it's that I have not only lost myself, but I'm so enmeshed in this relationship that I stop doing things that I love to do or like to do, that I stop becoming this person. I'm so focused on this relationship that I forget who I am.

Or that I can't survive in any way, shape, or form without it. I can't even imagine. Yes. As you said, I don't know who I am outside of it.

And so part of the healing process after betrayal is a discovery, a rediscovery in some cases of understanding, you know, I forgot how much I liked this. Self-care would be a way to describe some of those things. And I'm doing these things because I'm not gonna lose self in this interaction. And I can take responsibility for the things that maybe I'm not doing well, but I'm not going to take responsibility for your sexual behaviors. I'm not gonna take responsibility the, the gaslighting. I'm not gonna take responsibility for the manipulation or the hidden behaviors. I'm not going to be responsible for those things. I'll, I'll stay in my lane, the things that I can work on. That's a, that's a differentiated self. We talked about that in an earlier podcast. When I know who I am, I know my core values, and I'm living and acting consistent with them. That is a differentiated self who would say is, can be strong in relationships but not enmeshed in them.

As I hear you say that, Dr. Skinner, I noticed myself, if you're watching us on YouTube, you may have noticed it, but I heard you say that and I just noticed my face just breaking into a grin. Early in my career, I worked with so many betrayed partners and as we screened them to come into these support groups, one of the first things we said is we talk about self-care. We want you to start working on learning to take care of yourself. Not that you hadn't been, but we want you to start taking a walk every day. We want you to start building healthy relationships. And so as you went through that list, it just took me back there. Yes, this is— no one can go for a walk for me. No one. There are things that no one else can do. And so many times we You know, there are scriptures that say, you know, and the two shall become one. And so we think, oh, I am part of this and this is, this is us together. And, and we mesh so much that we don't realize that we still do need to be our separate self. And so learning to say, yes, I can be part of this oneness of the relationship, but I also need to figure out how do I be my own self as well. And so if I'm afraid to say, Kevin, why didn't you do the dishes today? I'm afraid to have that conversation. There are small things like I need to take time for myself to take care of myself, going for a walk, going to a group, working with a therapist, learning to create some boundaries, learning how to have conversations so that I can say, Kevin, I feel hurt. I feel frustrated. We had a commitment. We had an agreement to divide up some household chores and you told me that you would do this and that was your word and you didn't keep your word. And I felt hurt and frustrated. That's a conversation that I need to learn how to have. And I might need help learning how to do that, but it starts— I can't get there. If I haven't been there, I need to learn how to do that. And it starts with small, small steps. And so I love that you were talking about these steps that we take to get there. Hmm.

All right. So Marianne, uh, final topic today as we get ready to close up, and this is, might take us a little bit of time to flesh out, but I want to do so in a way that's really important. I'm gonna use this word, enmeshed in a relationship that I don't believe I can live without you. That feels codependent. I can't live without you. So what happens there is my identity is meshed in, I only am of value, I'm only of worth if you are in my life. In my career, I've heard many people say, after discovering betrayal, I might not be able to stay in this marriage. Where one spouse says, then I'll just go kill myself. And I'm sure you've heard that story. I can't be alone. I can't be by myself. Codependency. I don't have a strong enough self to say, if that happens, I, I understand that you would leave because I've hurt you so deeply. That is a differentiated self who is aware of the pain. No, I may not want that. I will have to figure out life without you because I've got to figure out myself so I don't hurt you or anybody else again. When I realize that my identity— I'm going to be more loving, more capable of love when I truly understand myself. So if I'm the person acting out, I've got to figure out how to not only stop the behavior, but how to be better in healing the relationship and being present with you. And a differentiated self, a person who has that identity, is going to be developing that skill, that awareness. But if I am so enmeshed in this where I can't separate that out, then I've lost my whole identity and you are the only person who I'm living for. That's problematic. That's another example of co-dependency.

I have a couple thoughts on this. You used some words that I think are really, really important here. Several times I heard you use the word figure out, and then I heard you use the word develop. And I think those key words are just key to this conversation. I might say, I can't live without you because I don't know how. I've never learned how to do that. And so I have to figure out what would it look like for me to do that? I've never thought about it. I've never tried. I have no idea what that would even look like. And that might feel like death to me because I don't know how to be alone.. And so I do think this is a, yes, I have to develop and learn how to do these things. And I might need help. I might need a lot of support because this is frightening. It's scary. It's terrifying. And I do want to bring back or bring into this conversation some resources. I really appreciate the work of Pia Melody. She has a book called Facing Codependency. And for me personally, that was a fantastic book to read through in that earlier work that I referred to in my career. It was some required reading that we would give our betrayed partners. We just say, we want you to read through this book, not saying that you're codependent, but we want you to just understand some of the principles of this. And she walks through and she really shares a lot of personal experiences, but I remember reading through it and going, oh, this isn't normal.

Hmm.

I thought, I thought some of these things were normal. She talks about a lot of trauma. And I think oftentimes we become, we can become codependent because of trauma and we learn to be quiet. We learn to not have a voice because it's a protection. This protects me and keeps me safe. And this does absolutely fit into those addiction models. But you know, she talks about going to her closet with a friend, a sponsor, somebody, I can't remember. She says her friend looked at her closet and says, You only have 1 or 2 pairs of pants and 3 shirts in your whole closet. And she said, well, yeah, should I have more? Her friend was just like flabbergasted. And Pia was like, do other people have more than this? I, I, why would anybody have more than this? And I don't know how many shirts and pants you have in your closet, but I think a lot of people have more than one or two pairs of pants and two or three shirts. And so she walks through her experience of learning and growing and thinks that that was her normal. She didn't know there was any different. And so being able to walk through with that, and she kind of just holds up and says, here's some things. And she talks about implicit memories, things that the way that our body responds to things that we have experiences that our body recognizes that we don't even know our body is responding to. So that's a, that might be a really fantastic resource. So it's P-I-A-M-E-L-L-O-D-Y. There's also a great book by Melody Beatty, but Melody Beatty or Pia Melody both have some, some helpful books on codependency. So those are some resources we might want to share here as well.

Great. And my final thoughts on this, Marianne, if you're going to grow, you do need to ask questions like, how dependent am I on this relationship? Do I have my own identity? Can both of us— my friend said it best, he said, yes, we're supposed to be equally yoked. If you put— it's like one big yoke and two individuals in that yoke. Both need room to grow, both need room to be an individual and have an identity. And the stronger our identity, yes, we might have differences, but we're comfortable with those differences because we know who we are. When we lose a sense of self, when we don't have our identity, when I'm so dependent upon everything that you do for my worth, for my value, then I've lost myself. I often say to all the groups I do, you are of infinite worth. You are of value. Have you lost that sense of who you are? No human being should define your worth or define your value. When I'm codependent, I don't know my value. I rely on you for my worth. That is where the problem lies. You're always of infinite worth, regardless of what your spouse did, regardless of what happened in your childhood. You are of infinite worth and value.

Those are beautiful final thoughts. I have some final thoughts. I don't know if I wanna even Add anything to that, Dr. Skinner? I think maybe my addition to that would just be, before you were even born, you had value.

Mm-hmm.

And there is no place throughout your life where you lose that worth. I ask my clients this so many times. When you were born, did you have value? You didn't give anything. You gave poopy diapers. You gave nighttime awakenings. You took. You needed. You took. But yet you were still loved. You were still valued. You learned to walk. You learned to throw your food on the floor. You were still of value. There is no point in your life where you do not lose that value. Yet we have experiences where we learn to protect ourself. Oftentimes to be quiet, to shrink, to pull back. We're taught through experiences or trauma or whatever it may be to pull back, or we might be told that we don't have value, but that's never true. And so whatever your work looks like for you, I encourage you to step into that and to stop, maybe hopefully from this conversation, to think,— or for you to look at yourself. I'd invite you to look in the mirror and to look in your eyes and to find that worth, to find the you that has worth and value, to see that value and to cherish that. I'm really grateful for this conversation today, Dr. Skinner, and to our viewers and listeners, thank you for joining us today.

Let's have a great week and we will be with you again next week. You've been listening to the Human Intimacy Podcast. Please share it with your friends. Please give us the likes, whatever it is. Just give us some feedback. If you have any questions, info@humanintimacy.com. And if you choose to have a good, fantastic, outstanding, marvelous, extraordinarily great week. Bye-bye, everybody.