Breaking Free from Shame: How It Shapes and Strains Our Relationships (Episode #85)

There's something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh.

Something's around podcast Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Michaelis, licensed clinical social worker. We're approaching an interesting time in our society, Marianne, where there's lots of change in relationships. There's lots of change with fear in our society. And at the end of the day, there's a lot of people who are struggling with what we refer to as shame. And today's topic is how shame is influencing our relationships. We've talked about this in the past, but today we're going to be more direct in how it influences relationships. So what are your initial thoughts, Marianne, as how shame influences relationships?

I've had the topic of shame come up a couple of times this week with some clients that I've worked with spread specifically in relation to a betrayed partner or a partner saying as soon as my partner or spouse hits shame, they exit, they leave, they're gone, they're just not even here and I can't even access them. And what that also does is it hits some shame for the other partner as well, who's standing there going, okay, there's some frustration, usually here we go again. But also, oh, what did I do wrong? How come we can't get this right? A lot of self doubt and shame is always, in my opinion, counterproductive. It's always going to be counterproductive.

So a few years ago there was some research on emotions, if emotions had energy. And this book Power vs Force talked about how if emotions have energy, what would the emotional energy be? One of the highest is love and the lowest was shame. And it doesn't surprise me because shame has universally been a part of individuals lives because as we've talked about in the past, it's always going to be relational. And you talked about how it's influencing relationships. I was recently in a situation where I was talking with some people and it just hit me as clear as could be. Shame shows up in a way that I don't see other people. When I'm in my shame, all the energy is coming in and it's not capable of coming out because all the energies about my negative self belief or my pain or what I've done and so I begin to internalize it, something negative about self and it really prevents me from seeing other, or in particular a spouse or a partner or a child or whatever the situation may be. My shame is high. I'm. I'm going to reduce. This is where we come into the intimacy Part I'm going to reduce the amount that you can see me. So, Marianne, I've seen recently many individuals who, as I was talking in different contexts, they talked about how the shame was really frustrating for the betrayed partner because every time their partner would go into their shame, they would feel like their partner wasn't present, which again, that's what the research shows. I can't hold my partner's pain when I'm in my shame. But when we look at that across the board, when shame is manifesting itself, all the energy is coming into me and that really then means that I'm not able to see outside of myself. I can't see other people's pain. That is absolutely the destructive part of shame is it prevents us from connection, from seeing, from developing empathy. And there's so many parts of this, Marianne, that concern me because when I work with individuals who are dealing with high levels of shame, if we don't deal with the shame, many, they won't be able to be present in maybe the most important relationship to them.

I'm smiling at this, Dr. Skinner, because I want to make sure we're not shaming anybody for having shame. So let's just be clear. We're talking about shame. And I can imagine somebody's like, yeah, but I have shame and it shows up and what do I do? So I want to be really clear with this. Shame is an autonomic nervous system response that our body has. It's not something that we normally say, and now I'm going to pull out my shame hat and put it on. It's not something that's very really conscious, but it's something that shows up as a protection or as our body's response to something that occurs. So I want to just be really clear. This is something that naturally happens. It's our body responding to something and I want to just give an example. One of the things I've noticed for me, especially when I hit shame, and I know I've talked about this before, learning how to cue into what my body responses are, but when I'm in shame, I know what my stomach does. I know that my right cheek always flushes, my neck gets scar scarlet, but when I'm in that space, it's not that I am intending to not be present. When we talk about turning inwards, I know for me I turn inwards because I'm thinking, oh, is that what they said? Oh, it's really a self questioning, self doubting. It's an internal dialogue that's going on inside of me that, yes, I tune everything out. Not because I want to tune everything out, but I just get sucked into this vortex that I am really doubting myself. And I am so consumed with what's going on inside of me, it's not intentional.

So shame almost always comes from an event or events in our lives. In other words, we aren't born with shame. There's something that occurs. Something occurs in a friendship or a relationship where we feel like, oh, I must not be as good as. Or I make a mistake. And so then we internalize this belief that there's something wrong with me. And then if we take it to that next level, then when I'm interacting with people, I'm more hesitant. I hold back. Far too often when I see couples trying to rebuild a relationship after sexual betrayal, when I'm talking with the person that was acting out, they're actually holding back from connection because they don't want to. They don't want to hurt their partner anymore. And so I don't deserve my partner. I'm not worthy of my partner. If they knew what I was like, they wouldn't want to be with me. All of those lines come into play here. And so now that internalization is preventing them from getting the connection and their partner, then let's talk about it from the partner's perspective. You're abandoned me. You don't love me. I'm not enough for you. And so now we've got this vicious cycle of two people trying to understand what's going on, but because the shame is unresolved, it's not being talked about, and they don't know what to do with it.

And at least in my experience, when my partner turns to shame, you know, I have a normal response. We have patterns. We have a dance. My husband does this, and this is how I respond. And when he goes to shame, I feel frustrated. Great. You just exited. You're not there for me. I'm going to have to take care of this myself. And. And so I have an internal dialogue that I turn to. Doesn't mean that it's healthy, but it's just a response of, oh, I see that look. Oh, I can see from your body language and your tone, I can see how you're shutting down, that you are not there for me. You're disconnected. Oh, great. And now I feel frustrated. And so my partner seeing my reaction then also may hit more shame, saying, like, oh, great, look what. Look what just happened. Look where she's at. And it's all my fault. And it drives the shame deeper. And this is just our normal. These are our interactions that are not intentional. They're usually not cognitive. But this is the interplay of shame as it shows up in our relationships.

I might say it this way. When we don't address our shame in many ways, to the betrayed partner, it feels like you don't care. So the body language of shame. If you're watching this on YouTube, the body language of shame, putting your head down is often a visual of someone in shame. It's a down. Yeah. The shoulders come in. And when that occurs, well, what does that do to the betrayed partner?

So let me add one other part to this. I'd also say we definitely lose eye contact. We lose visual connection. And so if I'm trying to have a conversation with you, and suddenly I lose eye contact, your head's down, your shoulders are hunched forward. You're telling me I'm checked out and I can't even hear what you're saying. We're done.

So what does that do to a betrayed partner's emotions? Right. Is that not where we see more anger, more criticism? Right. Because I feel abandoned. I feel rejected. You are not present with me in this. In this experience or this pain. Now I'm even more frustrated.

And what I want more than anything is for you to hear me, for you to see me, for you to see my pain, for you to be with me as I'm having all of this pain. But rather than you being able to be with me in my pain, you just took a quick exit out the door.

And I hear your tone of voice there, but it's now I'm freaking all alone. Where you at? Right? It's that anger which then reinforces this whole cycle.

Sorry, Dr. Skinner, you got to do that a little more emphatically. That was great.

Well, you understand what I'm trying to say, because it's not this calm emotion, because internally, I'm burning up inside. Because you're not present with me. My pain. You created this pain. Where are you?

Yeah, I want to stomp my foot. I want to scream. I want to throw things. I can not do this alone. Where are you? You created this. You caused this. And now you just exit and pour. You. Now somebody needs to comfort you. And here I am, once again left alone, holding it all.

And so to the person who is acting out, you probably have been through that emotional experience of feeling hopeless. I don't know what to say. And even this I'm doing wrong. But what if there were solutions? What if we could help you understand the importance of processing through your pain so you could actually stand confident and be with your partner, would that interest you? That's the question I want to address today. Because in that process, you're more likely to connect. You're more likely to feel internally confident and find your own voice of who you really are. That's what happens when we deal with our shame.

I think it's really important to point out, you know, this came up for me just yesterday with a client. Eric Erickson has some psychosocial developmental stages that he says, hey, we all have to go through these. And I believe it's shame versus initiative. And that's something that usually around the age of three years old, if I remember, that's a stage that developmentally, children usually go through. Erik Erikson's theory was that if we get stuck in these different psychosocial stages, we stay there. And so when we look at the world through a black and white, good or bad, very concrete mindset. So I'm bad, you're good, I'm a loser, nobody will want me. That often sounds pretty concrete. And that may be a very young developmental stage that we're working from. And I think that's important to understand, because in that stage, we may have to do some work in therapy, really understanding, like, what's my core? Where do I go back to if I'm asking my client, who doesn't believe that they have value, that doesn't believe that they're lovable, hey, snap out of your shame. Hey, let's get out of your shame. This shame has been ingrained for most of their life, since their childhood. And we think about a child who does something and they look at their parents for approval over and over and over again, we're looking for approval. And if we're told, you're dumb, you're stupid, you can't do it, you're too little, you're not enough, whatever it is, or we internalize that, that is something that we carry with us. And it grows and it grows. And when we're working with addiction specifically, this is often one of the core issues that has to be addressed. And so I want to make sure we're talking about this in a way that we understand. This isn't just like, hey, here's a magic solution. This is foundational and developmental.

So you just gave the first step to actually addressing it is understanding the story of where it originates. Because we start off with having to get insight of what is my story of shame. When did I start first start feeling this way because in addressing it, it's not that it just came about, right? We didn't all of a sudden just feel the shame. There's a story and, and what we're encouraging people to do is pause and reflect. Where did this originate? And you gave a couple examples early in childhood. You know, maybe my parents weren't there for me, or maybe I was bullied on a playground, or I wasn't as smart in a math class or a science class or whatever it was, I got left out. And so all of a sudden I start to internalize. I'm not like other people. So if I'm not like others. Because shame also is related to loneliness, pulling back away from people.

And I think fear is part of that too. Fear that I won't be accepted, fear that, that I'm not enough. So it's that loneliness, it's relational fears about our acceptance. And we all need that acceptance. They all need that love and connection.

So whatever age this shame settled in, there begins to be a language with that shame. And we've talked about this in the past, the negative core beliefs. But that language, understanding when it originated, is a very important part of addressing it. But then what happens as people bring the shame into the light, much like a hidden, secretive behavior, you're letting yourself be seen. That's where the shame starts to melt away or fade away, because the shame is now being talked about. And often when we start to experience giving it a voice, it loses that power. And that's one of the critical things, understanding the story. And I originally felt this way when XYZ happened in my childhood or when I was in college. And maybe I started acting in certain ways where then I even internalized it more. And so now we're unpacking the story and then we're talking about it, which is another critical step is we actually have to give a language to our shame.

This is so important. I think one of the biggest barriers is that place of vulnerability. It takes so much courage to get from the place of. I am terrified that I will be rejected and abandoned, because maybe that's been what I've experienced in the past. I am terrified to let other people see me. That takes such amazing courage. And this is not easy. We're not throwing this out saying like, oh yeah, you just go talk about it. I just really want to emphasize this takes courage, this is hard.

And that self awareness to even know my story. And as we break it down again, it may not be just one story. It Might be multiple stories, ways that you've internalized, feeling this shame, that there's something wrong or inherently bad about me.

As a trauma therapist, I'm sure that you use this tool as well. But I have clients sometimes who will say, I don't have a memory. I have a period of years where I just don't have any memories. And so as we're talking about understanding our story, sometimes my clients don't remember, don't have their stories. And that's okay. That's usually where we say, there may have been some dissociation. And that's usually when you might want to work with a therapist to help you work through that. But our bodies do hold on to our memories. And so even if we say, I can't cognitively find that memory, I don't know what it is, if we can notice and figure out, what does shame feel like for me and my body and then let ourselves kind of just float back, we call it an emotional float back and say, where has my body felt this before? Kind of like floating on a river. I'm not really thinking really hard because it's not a cognitive memory, But I'm just trying to see with the sensations in my body, can I find that where I've experienced it previously. And sometimes that'll be a doorway that we can find to get to something where we may have just, I don't have a story. I don't know what the story is. There's just a blank there or a block there.

And when we feel shame, and I say this to both the betraying and the betrayed partner, or I say this to anybody who's experienced shame, for whatever reason, you really want to pay close attention. And this is almost another add on to giving it a language and understanding the story where you feel it in your body. Because shame is also a physiological experience. And often I hear people say it's in the gut, but other times it really is like a flush like you described when you're experiencing a reddening of the face. So we understand that it is a physical response. So when you can learn to recognize your shame physically, it's better for you because that's when you understand yourself well enough to say, I, oh, I'm starting to experience this feeling of shame. I'm feeling flushed, I'm feeling hot. I'm feeling like I want to hide. Which is one of the more common responses. I want to hide. I want to get away from.

You know, a couple years ago, I had a client we'd been working on this. And I don't think I'll ever forget. She came to me and said, marianne, you'll never guess. I was sitting in a meeting and I had this feeling and I was like, I've been working on that. That's shame. And so learning to recognize it and realizing it shows up in the same place usually in your body. So if I can start giving it that name, then two weeks, two months, two years down the road, I'll say, oh, oh, what's my body telling me? It's telling me there's some shame.

So let me add a couple more steps. Okay, Right, So a couple more steps. So now that we understand that it has an origination and we've done enough awareness to have the language with it, and then what we have done is understand what it's doing to our body. Now we need to look externally and look at how it's influencing relationships and our approach to people in society. Because then I have the awareness of it's holding me back. In this relationship or in this relationship. I can't tell you how many times I've sat with individuals. I would be really rich if everybody who's told me this, I held back. I didn't open up. Because shame truly does hold us back from being seen. And that intimacy, you're not going to let somebody in when your shame is not there. And so they're going to feel that rejection or that limitation. So I need to do a self awareness and say, how is it holding me back? And when I do that, I can start to see, maybe it's influencing my parenting, maybe it's influencing how I interact with a spouse. Maybe, maybe it's influencing how I approach my work because I don't feel I'm a good enough employee. Because shame is not just in one area of our lives. It influences multiple areas of our lives.

And as we look at that, we have to say, what's its purpose? Its purpose is it's trying to protect us. It probably comes from our childhood where we've learned we need approval, we need acceptance. Shame says, don't show up here. You're not good enough. You're going to get rejected if you do. And so recognizing it might be a cognition that's not working for us anymore. And this is really kind of the crux of this. As you're saying, I do need to understand my story. But if I'm recognizing it in my body, I can sit and say, hold on a second. I'm feeling my cheek flush, I'm feeling my neck really flush. I feel the pit in my stomach and I can say, wait. I'm in this group of people who I care about and who care about me. And yeah, I can be vulnerable. And for me, it's really important for me to honor it. And the way that I've learned to honor it is just saying it out loud. And so I'll say, this is really awkward. I'm going to be vulnerable here. I use those words, I'm going to be vulnerable here. For a moment, I'm feeling shame. For me to release it, I have to put it on the table and. And let other people see it. That's part of my telling you story. When you said that, Dr. Skinner, I hit some shame. I felt like I wasn't going to be good enough and you were not going to want to do this podcast with me. And so. Oh, I'm just noticing that this really came up for me, and it's cringe. It feels a little cringey. I just saw myself when I said that, I cringed. It feels cringy. It feels so uncomfortable.

I'm not used to being vulnerable.

Right, right. And usually when we do that, other people see that vulnerability and they say, oh, wow, that was so courageous. Wow, I care about you.

Which is the transition that we see from individuals who are afraid to go to group into individuals who attend the group. They get that community, they get that connection, and they realize that they're not alone, they're not isolated. And we see that in other times when people have struggled. I read a book once called the Art of Confession, and it was talking about multiple religious organizations, perspectives of the power of confession and how it changes the body, how confession helps you feel hope, how it brings you closer to a place of internal peace. It's almost like shame is, I have to hide this. I have to. And we're saying, why? Imagine letting it go, not carrying that burden anymore. Because if we have hidden secrets, then shame, it's not going to flow through us, which is one other part here. If I've got secrets and I've got things that I'm going to go to my grave with, it's going to influence you somewhere, physiologically, relationally, it's going to influence you somewhere. Secrets are shame producers. And when we stay in the secret, not only are we not being seen, but then the shame creeps in. And it's often the voice. If they really knew who I was.

I want to add another voice to that, too, Dr. Skinner, because as we're talking about this and saying, oh, Usually when we're vulnerable, that's when relationship can happen. My partner has been sitting, sinking into shame and then shows up and says, here it is. I might go, yeah, you're a victim now. Okay, now you're a victim now. It might be really triggering for me. And I have seen betrayed partners and non betrayed partners. Just humans say shame on you. You should be ashamed of yourself. Those are some words that often come from our childhood and we may engage in verbally shaming, blaming other people and, and I think that's important for us to talk about here as well because it's part of the dynamic that if I'm shaming someone, if I'm attacking them, of course I shrink, of course I pull back, of course we're not connecting and of course I'm not going to want to be vulnerable. This would be a place to, we could use avr, acknowledge, validate and reassure. Yes, I can see how hurt you are. Yes, yes, I caused this and I am ashamed. I've done some things that have really hurt you. This is where I can step into responsibility. If I'm in that space, if I'm in a healthy space. What are your thoughts on that?

Well, when you take that responsibility, that usually doesn't come from a shame based on place. So when I acknowledge the hurt and the pain I've created, that is a beautiful step in moving out of the shame. Remember shame then is I normally become defensive or I become angry or I shift the blame gaslighting for something. So when we're in elevated shame, we're shifting the responsibility. I might say you're too upset, you're too angry, you can't handle. And so I'm shifting the responsibility. But when I come out of shame, yes, I am taking responsibility and I am owning it. Some of my favorite stories, Marianne, when I'm working with individuals and the shift away from the blame into I did hurt you and you didn't deserve it, that's on me. I know you may question whether you're enough for me or whether you're worthy of my love. This is my issue. You're always worthy, you're always enough. And I broke that trust. You didn't deserve that. When I hear those types of statements, my heart jumps for joy because I know they've shifted from this place of shame into ownership of I hurt you and they're no longer living in the shame based mindset.

That reminds me, as you know, I love Brene Brown, the shame researcher. Reminds me of one of the stories she told years Ago in her family, of course, they talk about shame, and she looks at shame and says, shame is I am bad versus I made a mistake. So we're talking about that responsibility part, and she talks about their dog. The conversation was, the dog did something, and she was like, bad dog, bad dog. And her son was like, no, not a bad dog. The dog made a mistake. I think it's important that learning how to shift from I am to I made a mistake. No person is a mistake. We all have value and worth, and that's what shame is really pushing up against and attacking is our value and our worth. And. And so recognizing every human being makes mistakes, and we make mistakes that hurt other people. But it's important to step out of that victim place that shame pulls us into to protect us, to be able to say, I did make a mistake. I didn't get this right, and I want to fix it.

Now. One more thing before we transition to the betrayed partner in the last few minutes, I want to talk specifically about when the shame is preventing you from healing. Just real quick. The longer we stay in that place where we feel like it's my shame and I can't and it's just the way I am, it keeps you frozen in this place of helplessness. We are not. Our shame, their mistakes, but coming out of that, acknowledging it, validating, doing the work that we've talked a little bit about today, that is empowering. And I say this over and over and over to my clients with whom I'm working on recovery. At the end of the day, when you are able to be seen, in other words, you're not hiding anything anymore. You should naturally be confident in yourself, knowing who you are, understanding your values, living consistent with them, and at the end of the day, saying, look into me. This is me. That's internal confidence. That's how we wax strong, as we might say.

And that is. That is work. That is work that takes a while. That's usually the beauty of therapy, especially when I'm working with my clients who've been acting out sexually. The work that we're doing is figuring out, where's your value? What is your value? What are the values that you've been not living congruently with? And it is that shifting and that changing to this space where, yeah, I can stand tall because I am living according to my values and I have worth, and so I can have a voice and I can make choices that. That honor who I am and how I want to live. That's beautiful.

So I have a I have a question for you, Marianne. A betrayed partner who sees a spouse gaining that strength, gaining that confidence, are they threatened by it or are they hopeful because of it?

Both.

Speak more.

Well, I can be threatened because I can see my partner changing, and I don't have a template for what it looks like. Oftentimes, I tell my clients, you will see your partner if they are working recovery. You will see things that you've never experienced before. You will see a different person, and you will be scratching your head going, one, is this for real? Two, can I trust it? And three, what do I do with this? I don't even know how to respond. And then four, maybe I'm going to pull out the sledgehammer and see if it's real.

Hmm. So I'm going to give maybe a little bit more to see. Are you really doing this? So what's the positive there?

The positive there is that oftentimes when my partner is working recovery, my nervous system can start to settle. However, the caveat that I always want to make sure that I address with this is I may have been in survival mode for so long that I have all of these emotions that I haven't even had a chance to deal with. And this might be where the further along my partner gets. Remember, one of the analogies I like to use with betrayal is hit by a truck. So if I just got hit by a truck, every bone in my body is broken, but my partner gets out of the cab and is like, I'm on my way to recovery meetings, and I'm doing great. I'm a couple years behind. Maybe, like, I'm not where they are because it's. It's going to take me some time. So I might have some resentment, I might have some anger, some pain, and like, oh, really? Look where you are. And you did this, but you did this to me. And look where I am. And so I'm really stuck here and hurt. And one of the things that we see with betrayed partners, the research shows us that one of the biggest challenges is that isolation and the avoidance, and that's the shame. I don't want anybody to know this is what's really going on, because usually to a betrayed partner, it feels like it's a reflection on their value. So once again, we're talking about the shame and the values, also the perceived internal value of the betrayed partner. This is shame work as well here.

So, Marianne, I want to talk about the way that shame reduction influences a person, in particular the betrayed partner here. So initially, I might Be uncomfortable with this change, is what you're saying. But I would also say that when our partner is no longer in shame, their eye contact, their body language, their presence, their tone, their demeanor, their energy is more confident. And that's what I'm referring to in a positive way when your partner is more present. That's what I hear from many betrayed partners. I want their body language to show me that they're listening, that they're attentive rather than that shame. Head down, shoulders hunkered together. That's not helping me. What's helping me is when they look me in the eye and they're present with me as I'm talking about my pain and my hurt. And their body language is present. That's a different, different place than the shame place. It's a place of presence. That's what I'm referring to in terms of the positive way that betrayed partners want their partner to show up.

And I would call that the disconnect. There is a almost palpable disconnect when the shame shows up. Oh, I can see it. I can feel it. I can't check boxes, but I know it and I feel it. And so there may be more. Let me test to see if this is real. Let me question it. But what you're talking about too is my autonomic nervous system will start to settle and. Or at least I feel like I'm a little bit safer. So now maybe I can have some emotions that I couldn't have before because I didn't know if you were going to go start acting out again. But if you're doing healthy recovery, maybe I can start to have some more emotions and I can work through and start really doing my work rather than being in a frozen place because I was just surviving.

Yeah. So really, the process that we're talking about here is a gradual process where you see someone shifting from no eye contact, head down, whatever it may be, however they dealt with that shame, the body language of disconnect, into a place of presence and eyes and energy and facial expression, your body language changes and. And internally, you carry a confidence. People in recovery carry a confidence. And if you're not carrying that confidence, can I ask you, our listeners, why? What's the barrier? Because that's what you need to deal with. We don't have to live with the shame. We can work through it. But my promise is, as you work through it and you go through the pain of it, you will end up in a more confident place than you've been in, probably Years or decades.

I can see Dr. Skinner, if I were a betrayed partner listening to this, I'd be, yes, exactly. And now I want my partner to listen to this because they really need to hear this. I can hear that betrayed partner saying, why can't my partner get this? How do I get them there? Yes. What you're talking about is right, and it rings so true. And how do I get my partner there, though?

Can I answer that?

I hope so. Yes.

The answer is, you don't. They do. Yeah, right. That's their journey. And you say, yeah, but that drives me crazy because they're not willing to do that. So it's probably because they haven't known how to see. Realistically, Marianne, nobody wants to live in shame. It's a dark, empty, lonely place. But when you're stuck there, it feels hopeless and helpless. And what I'm saying is, please don't live there. There are so many tools and so many resources to help, whether that's talking with a therapist, going to a group, learning to be vulnerable, learning to let your light shine. We don't have to live in that place of shame. It is too painful. And in truth, it's hurting all of us. So my invitation is, let's address it. Let's be present. Let's learn how to be our fully intimate selves. And that means that we have to be seen, which means that we can't live in our place of shame.

I think we have to learn where we can share in healthy ways. We've had some podcasts where we've talked about disclosure, but if I want to get rid of that shame, it means I have to talk about it. I have to be honest about it. And this is where I do think a 12 step type group or a support group can come in really well. Because step four is, here's my inventory, here's the things that I have so much shame about. And step five is about sharing that with somebody. And when we share, if it's with a sponsor, if it's with somebody from our group, if it's someplace that's safe, there is a load that is taken off us because, oh, I shared in, like, they still like me, they still accept me. That's the barrier is the fear of not being accepted. And so finding safe places where we can share, that's where we have to start.

Love it, love it, love it. To our listeners, we want to express our gratitude. Thank you for letting us be a part of your life journey. We understand that your time is precious. Marianne, I always appreciate our conversations. Do you have any final thoughts before we close up today?

My final thoughts go back to where we started at the beginning. This is not a conversation meant to shame and we recognize that this can be really sensitive for a lot of people because most of us will walk around with some level of of shame or fear because we're humans and we want that connection. I invite our listeners to practice self care if this has been hard to reach out. And once again, as I always want to end with that self compassion. Thank you for being here. Thank you for taking time and being willing to learn and to be with us and invite you to really recognize and see yourself for the good amazing human being that you are and give yourself some space and grace as you go throughout your day to day. So thanks for being here.

Thank you very much. My final thought, Marianne. The opposite of shame is self compassion, meaning that you're able to be with your own suffering and it not overwhelm you. You're able to be with that suffering which is the opposite of shame. I can't be with myself. I don't like myself. So my invitation is to increase and learn to increase that self compassion so you can be better, maybe even great at relationships. All right, thanks everybody. You have a good, fantastic, outstanding, marvelous, extraordinarily good week.

If you choose, we'll be back next week. Laugh.

When you laugh, something surround you. It's like you're shining, you're siren.