Breaking the Cycle - How to Resolve Relationship Problems and Build Connection (Episode 28)

There's something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh something around.

Welcome to the human intimacy podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with you, with my friend and colleague, Amy Anders. Amy, it's been a while. How are you doing?

I am so happy to be back here having conversations with you. So thank you for having me.

You survived this summer.

Yes, I think so. And, you know, back to school has happened, and there's always this. This moment of just new year, new habits.

So a different kind of chaos.

Yes, but a structured.

But structured chaos. There you go. All right, today's topic. We're really wanting to delve into solving problems and really strengthening the relationship. Kind of combined. We're struggling to resolve problems. How do we do that and strengthen the relationship? And, Amy, I'd love to get some of your initial thoughts about couples who just, I don't know, maybe they're stuck, don't know where to go. They're looking for some kind of breakthrough. They're looking for some way to change the unhealthy patterns that they've been in. What are your initial thoughts and what have you experienced?

Wow. Well, we have. We have never heard couples say, we're stuck. Right?

Not since yesterday.

You know, that was today. I. It's. We're stuck. And we keep having this same argument again and again, and we can't seem to find a way to. To change that vicious cycle. I mean, I think that's probably one of the most common phrase. One of the most common things we hear is, I'm stuck. We're stuck.

And I want to introduce a concept to our listeners here that I have found very helpful in the work that I've done. It's something that I now, in every training I do, I introduce people to this. And it's called the Zeigarnic Effect. And the story is fascinating because bloom is Zeigarnic, 1920s. She's a PhD student in Europe. And what she observed is something that has really changed how we do therapy. It's changed how we resolve problems or don't resolve problems. And here's a concept. So she's in this diner in Europe, and she's observing the waiters and waitresses going to tables, taking orders, but not writing anything down. And then she goes places the order. Few minutes later, the order's been filled. She takes it to the table and fills the order flawlessly. Like, how does she do? How do they do that? So she's curious. So now she's like, okay, how Are you guys doing this? And she says, okay, what did they order? And then they just tell them perfectly. And what did they order? Tells them perfectly. But then let's say there's table C over here and they just left. Hey, what about those people who just left? Well, I don't know. Well, what do you mean you don't know? You know that they ordered and they ordered. And the common theme is this. When an individual or in this situation that placed the order and they had left, no longer does the brain need to retain that information. So the resolved, the mind moves on, away from the unresolved. They now estimate, subsequent studies, that up to 90% of what you and I think about are the unresolved issues. The things that stick in our minds that keep replaying because we can't finish the story, we can't make sense of it. So that's the general concept of the Zarnic effect. And people now believe things like posttraumatic stress, ocd, and other issues that are kind of trying to finish or make sense of a story because we're trying to complete something. It's because of the Zigar effect, I can't complete the story. And so with trauma and most of our traumas, our brain is trying to make sense of the story. Now let's that put that into relationship application. How many couples fight about the same things over and over and over again and they can't resolve the issue?

Yes, and.

Well, and that's just it.

I've watched you work with couples where it's. I know you've had the same fight again and again and again. And so how do we interrupt that cycle? How do we. How do we change that?

And that's the patterns that are. Hopefully our listeners understand if you are stuck, if you feel like, man, we don't know how to solve this, we're going to talk about a few solutions, recognizing that some of these patterns you've probably been doing maybe for most of your marriage, most of your relationship. Or let's. Let's take it to an individual situation where you're consistently anxious and you find yourself repeating similar anxious thoughts. The Zeigarnic effect applies to individual healing just as much as it does relationship healing. So again, passing this along, when individuals get stuck, it's usually because they can't complete it. They don't know how to change the pattern. So, Amy, what are your say, some of your favorite things to do with couples when they say, hey, we're stuck, we don't know what to do?

Well, first Recognize. All right, tell me what you have been doing, right. So they can identify what is the cycle? What are the behaviors, the feelings, what. What does it look like that you have been doing? And then asking them, okay, well, we know this doesn't work, but when we identify, you know, what that vicious cycle and what, what were you feeling and what were you thinking and when you were in that, then what. What were your behaviors, but then what were your beliefs that then reinforced that, slowing that down and looking first, identifying what the vicious cycle even is and examining what are the emotions and thoughts and behaviors that are continuing that cycle to occur and interrupting that.

I like that. I like that a lot. Because you're talking about getting the insight into the pattern, right? What are you thinking? What are you feeling? What is. What is this actual pattern that you're in without insight? I often say without insight, change is much more difficult. In fact, I would say most of the change that we witness, people start off with getting insight into the problem or in this situation, the pattern that they're in.

Well, and because we can make the assumption the. The couples that are coming to us, they. They are not wanting to inflict harm and hurt with the person they're in relationship with, they wouldn't be coming to us asking for help and extending re like expending resources asking us for help if they really didn't want, you know, that assumption. They don't want to be hurting their partner.

Right. And in many situations, they don't know what to do to get out of the cycle. And I think this is an important part. When you don't know how to get out of it, you begin to feel hopeless, you begin to feel helpless. And usually you actually intensify the fighting, or the alternative is to become numb and give up all hope that change could even happen. So you. You give up in a sense of hopelessness, or you're stuck in this fight mode where your cycle is repetitive. Fighting, arguing, yelling. And it really. That cycle is so destructive because you both feel just so angry at each other, and you're living in a place of internal turmoil because you can't solve it.

And, you know, where is the joy? Where is the fun in that? Right?

Yeah. And there isn't. Right, that there isn't. And that's where I think a lot of couples finally give up hope and say, this is not going to work. We need to get divorced. What's interesting, something that I found, is that the work we're talking about is breaking this cycle. It requires a significant amount of Self effort, looking in the mirror and looking at how I'm contributing. But, but also how do I respond to my partner when I haven't known how to do it in the past?

Right, right. I, this work is really hard to do on your own, I think because working with couples, I'm working with a couple right now that, you know, they, they've been married a long time and they have a lot of strengths in their relationship and yet they haven't really gained the skill. They, things are, things are good until they're not and then when they're not, then they just sweep things under the rug. But then it escalates into more painful and problematic patterns because they have never learned how to resolve the, the vicious cycle.

That's a perfect example of the Zygarnic effect in action. Right. We sweep it under the rug. The next emotionally intense experience we have, all of a sudden you're going to be triggered one or both and you're going to be off to the races in being hijacked, fighting, arguing or in some situations ignoring and avoiding. And, and when couples don't know how to break out of that cycle, like you'd mentioned earlier, we've got to help them slow down that process because if you can't see the pattern and you keep doing the same thing, it really does create a very destructive relationship pattern that can easily end in divorce or high levels of conflict which are not good for your health and well being.

Right. And this, this couple, it's taken them goodness, I mean, 20 plus years and then it took a betrayal to really go back to identifying the pattern that has been there since year one of marriage. And it was the inability to, to really resolve problem pain in their relationship.

Yeah.

And it has grown and grown and grown and then this bigger thing and that the bigger issue, you know, it's the pattern has been there and now we have a bigger issue that is now allowing us to go back historically to the pattern that was there and how do we change that?

Yeah. And one of the things that I'd like to mention here is the work that we're talking about. There's a lot of personal insight that goes into creating this change. So as an example, a few, I don't know. Earlier this year I was working with a couple and as they were role playing because typically when we do intensives, I have couples role play different situations where they're fighting, which is really one of my favorite things to do because when people get stuck and they don't know how to do it Differently having someone there to be with you to in those moments to help them find a new pattern or a new, create a new pattern. It's so much fun.

Yes. And tell me about, because I following you and I've been so privileged to follow you, this couple, that's what we did the other day was role play and have a different voice.

So, so we, yeah, we go into this situation where they haven't known how to do it and we stop and we role play a scenario. Let's take this argument and let's do a take 2 or 3 or take 10 in some cases because they don't have the language. But when they learn how to fish on their own. And it's so enjoyable because now they're doing it on their own. And that requires again, a self evaluation of my role in this pattern, but also learning what is my partner actually saying.

Right.

Which again we've talked about in the past, deep listening. And if we're going to help you to our listeners, if you're going to create change, every pattern that you have needs a new pattern, especially the ones that aren't working. I don't mind if you keep the healthy patterns, but how many healthy patterns do you actually have?

Well, we don't really see those couples very often, you know, that are saying we just have all of these. You know, I, you remember BYU where it was vicious cycles and virtuous cycles. And I don't know that we have all of these couples coming in saying, hey, we just have so many great cycles that we just want, we, we just want to have you help us gain more, you know.

Right, right. Very rarely do we get, hey, we're so healthy, would you help us be even healthier?

Right.

That's not what happens to us. So, so going back to our listeners, let's say that you're in a situation where you have felt stuck. Well, maybe you've even been to counseling. And I want to address this because there are people who've been to counseling and like therapy didn't work.

Right.

And we've heard that one over and over again. Well, sometimes therapy doesn't work because the therapist doesn't understand the pattern because some someone's hiding a behavior or there's something that is not fully exposed. We haven't seen it all. And sometimes people aren't fully committed to the process. They're, so to speak, coming to therapy just to show that therapy doesn't work.

Right.

So one of the core questions, Dr. Bill Dy, he referred to it as discernment counseling where we assess a couple's commitment to improving and working on the relationship. And just a really basic question he asks on a scale between 0 and 10, 10 is I'm committed. I'll do whatever it takes to help this relationship heal. And zero, I think I'm actually done. And I don't, I don't have a desire anymore. I think that's actually a starting point that most people need to start at is what is our current willingness to try and see if this relationship can improve. Not that we actually know if we want to completely, but what's our desire to.

Right. And, and really getting honest about that. At really getting honest with that question of what is it that we really want? And.

So yeah, so when we get into that truthfulness, that self truthfulness, we might hear someone might say, I don't know right now, that's okay.

Right.

But is there at least a little bit of a want if I have the right information? If you have more information, do you want to.

And if you believed, I think getting into the beliefs, if you believe that, that you what, what you can put into the relationship, that it could get better if you have that belief, would that affect your want?

Right.

Because I really do believe that, that like we have, we have seen couples that, you know, if, if they really believe that the relationship can get better with their effort or with the learn, then that belief can, they can, that can change their what do I want?

Right. And that belief is. There's so much power on that. I, I think we could talk about the power of our beliefs. What have I come to believe about myself? What have I come to believe about my partner? What have I come to believe about our relationship? Ultimately, these underlying beliefs, if we're going to really help you get unstuck, we actually have to have a shift in what you've come to believe about you and your relationship and your partner. Because many times we see profound shame in the person who's acted out or the person who's been betrayed or the person, let's say that there is a betrayal. But usually it's a self perception that I don't know if I'm enough.

Right. Or I suck at relationships. I don't know how to do relationships. I just suck at relationships.

Or one of my other least favorites, if I can say it that way, is relationship failure is inevitable. Oh, in other words, it's just that's meant to be. That's, you know, I'm not going to succeed. And sometimes people have been through family histories and Family, literally, as we do our intensives and we start looking at the history of families, what we refer to as therapists, as a genogram, looking at generations of relationship patterns. When people say nobody has succeeded in my family for generations, well, okay, but somebody somewhere is going to be a chain breaker.

Is that going to be you, that transitional character? And you believe that that transitional character, that chain breaker can exist and can that be you and in your relationship here? And what have we seen? Absolutely. With the awareness of. And really that honesty and examination of painful histories. Painful just right. That.

Absolutely, yeah. So to our listeners, again, these are patterns that we've observed and that we've seen when we apply proper principles, principles that are relationship based principles. Kindness, learning how to seek or make amends when you've offended, learning how to ask for forgiveness if you have done something wrong, learning how to forgive in a very interesting way. Because that's. That too is a journey, right? It's how do I, how do I move on from the pain that I'm experiencing or the conflict that we've had? And usually when I find the biggest change is that their heart softens, they begin to see this person in a very different way. Not, not as the enemy anymore, not as this person who's out to get me, but this person who's also struggling in their relationship or their approach to relationships.

And as you say, understanding the story and you know, getting to that, getting to that place of, of really looking at, you know, you were, you were talking about the couples that come in and what has been modeled to you and, and ranking that, your family, that what are your beliefs about relationships and what are your beliefs about what you. How. What you can create?

Yeah. And again, looking at family history, we often see that people, when they explore their history, they realize that they haven't seen good models.

Right.

And now it's, it's time for me to change this pattern. I haven't known how I want to, I hope to, and yet I don't know if I have it inside of me. I don't know if I have the strength or, or even I don't know what to do differently. So when I work with couples, do intensives, the work that I do, one of the core things that I try to do is help individuals see into their past, then work to create new dimensions, new, new interactions. So as an example, one of my favorite exercises, and I'll just. To our listeners, I'll give you one of my favorite exercises, it actually comes from Thich Nhat Hanh. One of my favorite authors, and he, he says it in Plum Village that we get together and we just sit down and do a mindful listening meditation, what they refer to as deep listening. And I, I am absolutely convinced what he said is true. He said if everybody had an experience like we have at Plum Village, there would be no recourse for psychotherapy. And his whole point is if everybody has a somebody, somebody that they can turn to and listen to and rely upon, most people would not need a therapist. Unfortunately, we live in a world today where there's more loneliness, more isolation, and even in committed relationships, and people are suffering in isolation and in silence. So unfortunately, we'll probably be in a job or have a job for years to come because our society is struggling so much with that challenge of, of being heard and feeling like this person listens, this person's understands me. So if you want to repair your relationship, let's just go back and review some of the key things we've talked about so far. Amy, what are some of the things that you would say stand out from what we've talked about so far?

Well, you know, you just said everybody needs a somebody. And really getting into that, that deep listening and being able to kind of pause and just. And listen to what your partner is sharing. I have so many thoughts about just more reflections on couples that we have come together in these really difficult, stuck, hopeless places, and then where they are at now and where they transform within just a few days of applying these principles. And so where my thoughts are primarily around, you can create because we get to see that. Well, I know for you, you could not keep doing this job again and again and again. And I could not if we, if we didn't believe and witness these principles working in relationships.

Yeah, so that's exact. That's exactly right. When, when we work with individuals and we start to see the pattern of awareness come into their mind, it's not that, like, the journey's over. In some cases it's the beginning, but just some of the key things we've talked about, we need to work to un. Work through the unresolved the zygonic effect. And then if we continue to summarize all the way up to deep listening, but in the middle there, it's how to change the pattern when we haven't known how to. And I want to just emphasize a couple key points there before we conclude tonight. One of the things that stands out to me over and over again is every time we start to identify patterns, most couples, they really don't know what to do differently.

Right.

And so that's where it really takes the willingness to listen and ask yourself what's happening inside of me and what's actually happening in my partner, which is a much deeper way of thinking. Normally, when we're in a fight, two people are sharing their ideas or their opinions, and they're wanting to be heard. You've got to listen to me. And we're actually asking, step back, evaluate what you are experiencing, and then ask even a more complex question. I wonder what my partner's feeling in this situation.

And, and that's what, you know, the therapeutic space provides is that, is that ability to really, really slow down and, and pay attention to what is going on within me. What am I feeling? Where am I feeling it in my body? What is it, you know, that I'm noticing? And, and then to be able to be attuned and pay attention to your partner and ask that question, I'm feeling this and how is, you know, what are you feeling? And that's a skill set, right?

It is. And, and the thing is, is relationship skills are learned. They're not necessarily inherited. So learning to listen, learning how to ask questions, we've talked about being curious. Again, there's elements of, of principles that we've talked about. When you apply principles to relationships, you generally get outcomes that, especially if these are principles like deep listening, like empathy and compassion, really trying to understand what your partner is experiencing and then gaining personal insight, something we've also mentioned, we have to have more insight into ourselves and into our partner.

And I want to just also emphasize a small change. A, you know, relationship habit does begin to create. I mean, that makes a big difference. These just a small change and then that consistent change in one behavior at a time. Then, as we know as systems working in systems, a small change then creates a change in a partner. And these, these changes then work to create healthy and interrupt that vicious cycle and turn it into a positive cycle.

And what I really like about what you're saying there is when you change one small part and it influences the other parts, we begin to actually have hope, right? Because we're actually seeing something different than what we're used to. And when we, the brain needs to see some theme. Just today I was talking with a couple and, and she was just really aware of what she needed. And she said, in this situation, if you could just. And she said, just send me a message and it would just make my day. And it was almost like seemingly too simple, right? But he's like that. That's. That's what you need. Yeah, that is. That would help me. And she said my soul would just go.

But you asked the question, you know, I was with a couple today asking that question, well, what is it that you need? And it's not as. Not having the assumption that your partner should just know, but really asking yourself that question and then communicating, you know, this would mean a lot to me.

Yeah.

You know, not. Not just assuming. Well, I've told him a million times and he should know this or she should know this, but really, this would mean a lot to me. And having that specific. Then it's okay. I can do that. Right?

Yeah. So I want to conclude with the story.

I love this.

So this actually comes from many years ago when I was just. I just graduated my PhD and I was attending a conference by. Actually by Michelle Wiener Davis. She wrote a book called Divorce Busting. So we're talking 25 years ago. Right.

I remember.

And. And this story stands out to me because we're talking about change and we're talking about in moments when we don't know what to do. She actually, in her book, she said, if you don't know what to do, do something very unique. And so she said, I got a letter and she. I heard her share the story. It was kind of a funny thing. She said, So I got a letter from this couple, and they're older, their children are out of the house, and it was written by the husband. He said, hey, just so you know, we tried what you suggested, and it worked. So let me just tell you how it worked. He said, in. In our conflict, we typically did. Haven't known how to solve it. We haven't. Don't know what to do different. And so my wife and I decided just for the heck of it, that we would fight in the nude.

Oh, gosh.

Now, at that point, Michelle's like, how.

Old you are, how that fight could go, you know?

Yeah. So. So they had gotten in a fight, and she was changing the laundry from the washer to the dryer. She's, you know, he kind of walks in, she's taking the load out of the wash, putting it into the dryer, and she looks up and he's got everything off except for his sock. And at that point, I mean, she starts cracking up, he starts cracking up, and it just broke the pattern. Now, again, it's just an example, but every pattern you have that doesn't work, it needs an intervention. It needs a different response asking more questions. I'm Sorry, I don't know. Trying to help your partner feel heard and understood so you can complete the story. This is how we create change. And. And we're just giving you some samples of the things that we try to do when couples come to our office just so you get a feel of this change process. But when couples change, oh, my gosh, it's so much fun.

It is. I mean, you know, I know there is nothing. It's so rewarding to receive these messages. We are better than we. Than we could have ever imagined. And we have. You know, we have meaning from our pain because we have gained this. And it's better than you. Better than you can imagine. Going back to, you know, you. You referenced solution focus, but it's kept your partner also doing something right when they are doing something that. That you appreciate. Just reinforcing that, catching them doing something right. That's.

And then acknowledging it and saying, wow, that was all. I really appreciate that. Awesome. All right, in conclusion, today, I just want to invite you to do a couple of things. You don't have to stay where you're at. Change is possible. And. And I tell this over and over to individuals. One of my favorite moments is when people look at each other. They look each other in the eye, and maybe for the first time in months, maybe even years, they look into their eyes and they actually see each other. Those are my favorite experiences because we're repairing the pain that has not really been addressed for sometimes years. So if you're stuck, if you don't know where to turn, you don't have to stay where you're at. Reach out for help. Practice some of the things we've talked about today. But up your game. Life is too short not to live in connection.

Absolutely.

All right, Amy, thank you so much for your time. This is evening. It's always a joy to be with you.

Thank you.

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