Breaking the Silence: Addressing Abuse as a Barrier to Human Intimacy (Episode #37)

There's something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh.

Welcome to the human intimacy podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with my friend and colleague Marianne Michaelis. Marianne, how are you today?

I'm so glad to be here today. You know, Dr. Skinner, I think about a month ago, when we were one of our podcasts, you were talking about how beautiful the fall is in Utah right now in the Pacific Northwest, or at least where I am. I think it just comes a little bit later. So right now I've got just crisp skies and my leaves are starting to turn and fall. And so I'm in that place, I think, where you were a month ago. So super.

Okay. Now if I'm a month ahead of you, I feel bad for what's coming your direction. I got snow in the mountains and snow on my grass this morning, so.

Oh, my goodness. Yeah, not ready for that yet.

Yeah. Well, all right. To our listeners, we want to welcome you for. Thank you for joining us. We're going to be talking about perhaps one of the more difficult topics today that we're going to address maybe ever on the Human Intimacy Podcast. One of the reasons why is this topic abuse and the various types of abuse is something that we want to bring to the forefront because I believe it is one of the biggest barriers to human intimacy. In fact, it is what takes away safety. And so we want to help individuals, couples, eliminate this unhealthy relationship pattern that is not working. So, Marianne, why don't we get started today your initial thought on just abuse and its role in relationships.

Thank you, Dr. Skinner. And yes, this is an incredibly sensitive topic. And I know as we step into this discussion that we both. There's just a lot of sensitivity about this. And I. I know we want to be gentle, and we also want to be very clear. One thing my first thought is something that you and I have talked about several times over the years. Abuse is abuse is abuse. And oftentimes we don't want to see abuse. We don't want to call it abuse. We want to minimize it. We want to step away from it. We want to avoid it. Because if we call something abuse or see it as abuse, one, we might not be able to. To not see it that way. And two, it might mean that we have to make some pretty big changes, and we might not be ready for that. And those might be really, really hard changes that are really uncomfortable for us. And so recognizing that even talking about this topic can be really uncomfortable, you.

Know, early in my Career I had, I don't know what you want to call it just out of almost by default. The first job opportunity I had was working with individual that individuals that had been court ordered for domestic violence. And I was absolutely surprised. I mean it was a foreign world to me, something I had never considered. But as I started I was mandated to take a state held course to learn more and, and then I was providing care and I just want to say this. I, I have found that individuals, even those who were abusive when they started getting proper treatment, I, in fact one of my top stories ever was this man. One of the things we did is we went through a 16 week program court ordered for those who had been by a judge, they had been ordered to attend these, these groups. And so I'm running this group and I have this individual at the end as a group. They go through this 16 weeks together and, and then they had to get a certification notification to give to the judge that they had completed it and the last day together. Our requirement was that they would read a letter to the group that they were going to read to their spouse about their. Now what they've learned in this course. And this individual, he began. It was, I mean it was, it was just, I mean if you want to cry, if you want, I mean this, the awareness of this guy's self, awareness of what he had been through. And he in essence said when I first came to this group I thought I was with a bunch of drunk hillbillies who had abused their wife when they were drunk. And then he said I started realizing I'm a lot like you and I'm a lot like the people who I thought I would never be. And then he wrote this incredibly apologetic letter to his wife and just this, I mean if you read it you're like wow, this guy, this guy woke up. And anyway, so I've seen that side of it and I, and sometimes we, you know, we think abusers are abusers and they're going to always be. But what I have found is men, even those who've been abused, if they don't know and, and, and, and many of them grew up in homes where they were abused or they, and they witnessed it. And so, so for them that I'm almost going to say normaly. But today we want to address this head on because it will always be a barrier to human intimacy when abuse is occurring in relationships. And I want to be very clear, it will always be a barrier to human intimacy.

So I can't think of anybody that I'VE ever worked with. I think in our society, there's a lot of shame in being identified as an abuser. And so having that label or even looking at or considering using that label for ourselves isn't. Is incredibly painful. Just like you said, I thought abusers were those people, not me. And it, it's a really hard place to step into, to recognize and say, oh, I've been abusive, my behaviors haven't been okay, and I've hurt people. It's an incredibly humble, humbling place to, to be in. It sounds like your client was able to step into that place. Not everybody always gets there.

No. And, and the other side of that is to see it as abusive. I mean, I think it's easy to, to minimize, to overlook because we want to give people the benefit of the doubt. But if, if we look at it in the context of abuse, if we were just defining it, there are obviously different types of abuse. We've got verbal abuse and emotional abuse. We've got sexual abuse and psychological abuse. We have financial abuse, spiritual abuse and spiritual abuse.

And we've got neglect that falls under that in a different way as well.

And, and so when we start to look at it in many different ways, we can hurt people in relationships. And whether we call it abuse or not, if it's hurting people because we're verbally insulting them, criticizing, putting them down emotionally, not allowing their emotional expression, you're such a wimp. All you do is cry. Those types of statements hurt relationships are non validating and at the end of the day, they make it hard to create an intimate relationship. And again, I know our listeners today. Thank you, by the way. To our listeners, I know this is not an easy topic, but please ride through us with this because if you can do that, we're going to be talking about things that we want to take out. And if they're a part of your relationship, please, let's get some help so we don't have to deal with these types of relationship barriers. You know, I, maybe interestingly enough, I just, you know, how common is this? Because I think it's important and I looked this up. In the United States, studies have found that 25 to 60% huge range of adults have experienced some form of emotional abuse in intimate relationships. A 2010 study by the Journal of Emotional Abuse indicated over 50% over 50% of women in intimate relationships had experienced emotional abuse at some point. So again, those are just some initial statistics, but I think they're extremely important.

When I hear those statistics, what sticks out to Me is those are people who I. Who have identified the abuse. I think so many times we're in abusive situations and we don't even identify it. I know earlier on when I was doing a lot of my own healing and recovery work, I remember reading books and say, that's abuse. I had no idea, like, seeing it defined because it just. When you're growing up and it just seems this is how everybody interacts, and that's normal. Seeing it written down on paper, defined can change and help us go, oh, holy cow, I didn't realize that. So when you're saying 25 to 60%, I would wonder if that note, those numbers wouldn't be much higher if we actually had some definitions. And we're looking at saying, oh, that's what this actually is, which.

Well, insults, threats, blaming, yelling, screaming, criticism. John Gottman talked about two of these four Horsemen, Right. Criticism and contempt. I think contempt fits a lot in my mind, a lot more in the emotional abuse category. But, you know, it's important as we look at the structure of relationships. You know, we do. We get in arguments and we fight. But so what? At what point does it get to the point where it is abusive? This line of. This line from not being. It's an argument in a fight to being abusive?

Yeah. Can we take those four Horsemen? Let's take that a little bit deeper. Because I don't think it's just the criticism and the contempt. When we get the defensiveness, and I'm pushing back in that defensive where I'm. That's probably the psychological. That's where the gaslighting may come out, or I'm defending or I'm. That may be the yelling, whatever. And the stonewalling, which is the shutting down, the. In the unavailability. I think those also fit here, don't they?

Yeah. And what we would want to put that in. To this category of those are the behaviors that destroy relationships. Again, in his findings, Dr. Gottman found that over 90, what, 93% of individuals who use the four Horsemen in the relationship there. I mean, if you watch and this is actually happening, the divorce rate, I mean, is almost predictable. Over 90, 80% of, you know, if you watch people doing these things consistently in their relationship, they're more likely to lead to divorce.

And. And it's interesting because so often as a therapist, I roll through and just run through Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Like, it's a title that Gottman gave that apocalypse. That's like the end of the world. That. And we don't Even at least I blow through that and don't even realize that's what this is talking about. When we are abusive in our relationships, it is. It's usually the ending of our world, our world's end, either for how we're perceiving and interacting with the world, how we see ourselves, but also ultimately that we may have relational demise because it can't sustain.

And often what it does is it crushes love. The. My feelings of love towards this person, now, that's one approach. The other is that then I try to get this resolved. I beg for the love. And so when I was working with individuals who had been abused in relationships, I was amazed at how many of them. I mean, they would say over and over, begging for their partner to come back. And it would be like this cycle, what we call the cycle of abuse, where there'd be a honeymoon period. They promise it's not going to happen again. I'm never going to yell, I'm never going to slap. Whatever it was. I'm never going to do that again. Okay, okay. Honeymoon period, where it's good. And then here we go again. The things start to escalate. It ramps up, and we go through the same cycle, and it's done over and over. And I'm. I'm. I was always amazed at individuals who had been abused at their willingness to go back into this pattern and in many situations. And I heard people saying, I just. I want their love. I need their love.

And I think there's some more factors as well. I want to. Before I jump into some of those, I. In Patrick Kearns's book, the Betrayal Bond, just in the. In introduction, he. He shares a citation that says, on average, a woman will not contact the police until her abuser has assaulted her 35 times. So as we're talking about these cycles of abuse, I don't know how many times I've had a client in my office say, well, I was part of it. Well, I was yelling back, or I did this. And so we're not usually abused by somebody who we don't care for or somebody who cares for us. There's usually. There's usually an intimate relationship, not necessarily sexual. It can be sexual, but there's usually an intimate relationship. Where there has been love, there has been trust. And so when something happens, we go, hold on a second. That wasn't okay, but okay, they were having a bad day. We do a really good job of rationalizing it, of not seeing it. And so it's. It's really difficult to actually see, I.

Think that idea, it's hard to see when we're in the middle of it and we have entered into this relationship with love and, and hope and we see this person as our, our person. And then we experience things that are shocking, abusive. We often, I think we freeze, we freeze up. We don't know how to respond, especially if there's been grooming, say more about the grooming.

So I would look at grooming really as cultivating a relationship which would create trust so that there could be some exploitation of that trust, you know, and.

As we look at situations, you know, that, that would indicate that this person has a predetermined ill intent. And I think most of the abuse that we experience or we, that we witness, maybe it's not an ill intent, it's, it's just autopilot. I think a lot of times when abuse is occurring verbal, emotional, I, I really believe it's on autopilot. But when we stop seeing people as people, then we cross over into things. Abusing, slapping, kicking, punching, grabbing. That's when our brain is hijacked, using a phrase from Dr. Gotman's work. You know, it, it's literally flooded and I'm not thinking accurately and, and in that mindset then, then I can almost justify any of my behaviors. I wouldn't have slapped you. If I remember the podcast I did with, with Dr. Jason Whiting where he was talking about where they were interviewing people who had been abusive and as they, their brain had settled down, they went back and looked at this experience. They knew that they were self deceiving. And I think that in the moments most abuse occurs because our brain is overwhelmed, I don't want to get caught. I. You're hurting me. And so I'm the victim of you doing something and then I do something aggressive.

That's a really good segue. If you don't mind. If I take this into something I want to share. That's just been really heavy on my heart.

Yeah.

Back when we did our podcast where we were talking about empathy and we were talking about avr, about acknowledging, validating and reassuring. I shared how I have a friend who's struggling with some memory loss as she's been aging and I was showing up to help with some things at her house and I ran into somebody who was really like almost openly hostile for, with me and I was really confused. We talked about in the podcast, I was like, what could I have done wrong? Like, how could I have fixed this? What could I have done differently? It's come to light there was some exploitation that was happening to my friend. And here's what's a little bit crazy about it. I'm a therapist. I'm a mandated reporter. It's my job. If I see any type of abuse, I have to report that. This is something that I'm aware of. I kind of have my feelers on all the time. Yet in this situation with my friend, I didn't see was sitting right in front of me. And there were so many parts of it that I didn't see, even though they were right there. My friend shared with me that she had been feeling exploited. There was some documentation I'd come across that substantiated that. And my friend shared that she was feeling fearful of this other individual. And as I was chatting with my husband about it, he was the one that said, marianne, you have to report this. I didn't see it. I was worrying about her relationship with this other person. I was worrying about. She didn't want this other person. She didn't want to damage her relationship with this other person. And I was trying to be sensitive of that. And I didn't see it. And it was sitting me right. It was just right there in front of my face. My husband could see it, but I didn't. We miss it oftentimes when it's right there because it's so relational. Oftentimes, I think that's part of the grooming is it is about relationships that maybe aren't healthy.

You bring this up. It reminds me of an experience I had early in my career. My friend and I, Ken Patey, we had written an assessment at the time. It was called behind the Dating Mask, and it was designed to help people identify red flags in dating relationships. And as we were, you know, just getting out there how people were responding to it, we had somebody who was an intern, and they wanted to come work at our office. And so we said, hey, you know, we're just working on this project, if you want to look at this. And at that time, she was in a dating relationship. She took the assessment. She. I mean, it was pretty lengthy assessment. I think she was probably less than 20 of the questions into it. She put her pen down, because back then it was paper and pen, because we were just trying to. She put it down and she said, I have to break up with my boyfriend. And. And she didn't need to tell us anything else, but she had identified some key red flags that she had been minimizing, overlooking, because again, when we feel these Feelings of love, we can easily overlook things like, oh, they were just having a bad day. But as we continued on in, you know, interviewing and prep, I mean, we interviewed 12 divorced people for prepper preparing and getting questions for this assessment that we wrote behind, called behind the Dating Mask. And we interviewed 12 people, and I. I'm telling you, Marianne, I could tell stories to you that every one of those had those red flags in the relationship before they were married. They overlooked, minimized. In some situations, friends and family members said, oh, they're good guy or they're a good girl. Every single one of those things that were manifesting in the dating relationship, oh, my goodness. Manifests itself in full spades once they were married. So I often say to people, if it's happening in dating relationships, take it and amp it up in marriage. That's what it's going to look like.

Yeah. In Dr. John Van Epp's book, How to Avoid Falling in Love with a Jerk, he talks about what we see in dating that's like the ceiling. Like, that's as good as it's gonna get. And so don't expect things to change for the better afterwards. Look at it and say, this is might be as good as it gets. I do. As you're talking about these relationships, I just want to point out what came to my mind as you were talking about. That is just. Just some really key, quick red flags that we might miss, but I think that are important for us to point out are control, manipulation, isolation, and secrets. Anytime somebody wants me or you or someone else to keep a secret, or if they're trying to control or they're pulling us away and saying, no, don't, like, I don't want you to spend time there. Those are some pretty quick red flags to look at and say, hold on a second. What are your thoughts on any of those?

Yeah, so let's talk about that. The one of not allowing people to connect with outside people with term we use is sequestering. And when I sequester somebody, I prevent them from connecting with family, with friends so that they're not. They can't get a reality check of what's actually happening in the relationship. A deeper form of abuse is I'm literally limiting your outside connections because I know that if you talk and get another perspective, you're going to gain strength. And. And so it's a form of manipulation where I sequester you away from other people.

So kind of puts them in a silo or keeps them in a vacuum.

That's right.

That's right. Okay.

By the way, if that's occurring, that is one of the deeper forms of manipulation and control and is truly a manifestation of more complex forms of abuse. Sequestering is extremely hurtful to relationships, very damaging.

I'm going to bridge this for just a second because oftentimes you and I both specialize in working with betrayal, trauma, and sex addiction. And I think this is one of those areas that's a little bit shady where it feels like I have to keep secrets or I can't go there or spend time with other people. And. And so there are some bridges where things bridge back and forth across.

Yeah, well, and I hear what you're saying there because, you know, if. If a person has had an affair or engaged in unwanted sexual behaviors, that the sense of the betrayed saying, hey, I don't want you to interact with this person. I don't want you to interact with that person. Now, we're talking about a very different component. Right. I'm talking about if you want this relationship in contrast with, I don't want you to connect with family or friends because of my actions. So. So make sure we separate those things out because they're not the same. We can't equate somebody who's been betrayed because they're looking for safety, they're looking for connection, and they're looking for their partner to recommit, to recon, to come back into this relationship and show commitment. And. But the other concept is, I don't want you to tell anybody about what I've done, or I don't want you to go connect with them because I feel threatened by your connection and what I'm in essence doing, using a manipulation tactic to keep you from having support. If anything, again, I can see how people could get these mixed up, but if anything, if that's occurring, I'm actually preventing you from getting a reality check. And the other person is seeking for comfort. They're seeking safety.

I want to drive that a little bit and really just clarify those two, because I think we're talking about boundaries. If I'm a betrayed partner, it's absolutely appropriate for me to say I'm not comfortable with you interacting with your previous acting out partner.

And you want to go connect with your family and friends. You want to go connect with safe people. People. Right, Right.

Yeah. And that's different, though, than if I have betrayed and saying, you can't tell anybody about this. You can't get support that you need. That is where this bridge is over. And we could look at it as some emotional or some. Some abuse.

Yeah. And the reason what's happening there is I'm dictating who you can get support from, who you can get support from, because I don't want you to tell any. Anybody. And again, that that's exactly the opposite of what we see when people go into the recovery process and the healing process. One of my, the most. One of my telltales of the recovery process is I'm embarrassed and ashamed by my actions. But if you feel the need to talk with somebody about it, you get the support that you need because I don't want to influence you getting support.

And that's a healthy recovery behavior. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's just really being very clear. Healthy boundaries are appropriate. Yet holding somebody's secret or expecting someone to hold your secret and be in isolation because they're holding your secret is a form of manipulation and control. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where else do you want to go with this today, doctor?

You know, I really want to address the psychological abuse, what maybe more spoken in our language today, often referred to as gaslighting. I think the two are very. If they're not the same, we're going to talk about very close cousins. Psychological abuse, mental games, manipulation, hiding behaviors, letting you think something when it's not actually true. So half truths, anything that's going to be deceptive, hidden form of denial, blame. These types of actions play mental games. And we often find that when people are in fact, in the research that I've done on say, sexual betrayal, interestingly enough, as I was working early in my career, looking at the betrayal trauma piece, I identified looking at some people who'd experienced abuse, looking at how their partners talked to them, and I saw a strong carryover, denial, blame, minimization. So this is clear back 20, almost 20 years ago, I wrote a scale, I called it the denial and Blame scale. Because what I looked at is what factors are contributing to these symptoms of post traumatic stress that betrayed partners are experiencing. And I found in the research now very clear the more psychological abuse or gaslighting that is occurring in a relationship. And I know these are harsh terms, so please be patient with this, but if it's occurring in a relationship, the trauma goes up. It's the highest variable that I can find in terms of a relationship between PTSD symptoms and gaslighting. If it's occurring PTSD symptoms, it's the highest relationship I've been able to find. In other words, if gaslighting psychological abuse is occurring, then the PTSD symptoms. And betrayed is higher. The same is true of individuals who are in abusive relationships that maybe there isn't. Sexual abuse, infidelity. If I'm blaming you, I. You know, I wouldn't have hit you if you wouldn't have. I wouldn't have had to do this. If and when I start to blame and shift that on to you, or I hide or minimize my behavior. No, I didn't. I didn't do that. Are you. I mean, you might be seeing things. I mean, we might need to get your mind checked because I don't think you're seeing things quite right. And psychological abuse can also be a sociological or social. Social experience where I'm turning people. You.

I'm.

You know, your. Your dad, I mean, he's. He's going crazy. Your mom, she's losing her mind. I mean, I just look at her. I mean, she's. She's up so upset. She's so angry. And I. I just don't know what to do. I mean, I made some mistakes, but. But my goodness, your mom's losing it.

And this concept that you're talking about, Dr. Skinner, gaslighting. It comes from a movie from the 1940s, 1950s of somebody who is intentionally trying to help somebody feel like their spouse, who's rich. They want to have them institutionalized because they think they're crazy. And they're turning down the lights, the light switches and seeing. And they're saying, wait, did you see that? No. No, I didn't see that. That something's wrong. It. Is this intentional making you feel crazy? So gaslighting, Crazy. Making. We use those terms interchangeably because we do, we're questioning our reality. What we're seeing, what we're feeling. What we're experiencing is being absolutely twisted and distorted. And now we don't know who to look towards, even ourselves. We don't feel like we can trust ourselves. Yeah.

So. So coming back full circle, unless you got another thought you want to share on that?

Well, just right there. I. I do. There's one other part. I have had a lot of clients tell me. Physical abuse. At least there's a bruise.

That's right.

At least there's a broken arm. I could handle physical abuse, it's less insidious, it's less damaging, it's less. Less painful than the. The psychological abuse that's occurring. And I hope you're going to go here, but I know I've been in a training where you were talking about your research where, and I might quote you wrong. So please feel free to correct me, but I think you talked about that the impacts of psychological abuse are so, so, so much more damaging than physical abuse. And I don't want to minimize any other physical or any other type of abuse. But like the, the, the balance between the two, that psychological component is just incredibly damaging.

You know, and that's what, when I was earlier in my career and we were looking at that over and over as we were talking with individuals, it was the psychological manipulation that was so hard for people to make sense of because that, like you said, I can see a bruise, I can see right, the, the physical manifestation of a black eye or of, you know, a scratch on my arm. But what I can't explain is the consistent put downs ridicule. One person said, I feel like I'm being hit with a bat. I've got a pillow. But internally I'm bruised and I'm just in so much emotional pain. And nobody can see it.

Nobody knows that part right there. I go to the grocery store and I have a black eye, I have a broken arm. Somebody will say, are you okay? Do you need help? But if it's all inside, I'm just expected to suck it up and show up and keep going on.

Well, and then how do I describe what's actually been said? Well, how do I describe the manipulation, the game playing? How do I describe that to people in a way that they can make sense of it? And that's, I think, one of the more challenging things because there are many times, and this is one of the things we learned with my friend Ken Paty. There are people in public, man, they are just gems. They're the stars. They're kind and caring, they're serving, they're doing all kinds of things, but under behind closed doors, they're hurting, harming, manipulative, controlling. So one way in public, another way in private. When you watch and you see that, it's even more challenging because when you go to tell people, they're like, what are you talking about? I mean, this is the rock star. This is, everyone loves this person. You are so lucky. You are so lucky to be married to xyz.

Nobody wants to hear it or accept it. And then they say, are you sure? Did you misunderstand that? What did you do?

Once again, social gaslighting is the phrase I use there. Social gaslighting when society can't accept what's actually being said. And again, these are, these are, this is a, not a fun topic, but it is a truth that these things harm Relationships, they have to be addressed if we're going to do it. And let me talk about this part as we get ready to close up today. Somebody says, so what's the solution? The solution, go. I go back to that letter that after 16 weeks that this man wrote to the group and to his wife. It was one of the most powerful experiences because this man was quiet in the beginning. He didn't talk much. He was more reserved. And. And now I understand why, because he thought everybody was but just a bunch of drunk hillbillies and he wasn't like them. And then as he opened up and the letter he wrote to his wife, if I. I mean, I. Honestly, if I could read it, it's just tear jerking. This is how I was. These are the behaviors that I exhibited. You didn't deserve those things. I lied, I manipulated. I was a drinking fool who. I mean, just on and on. And these things harmed you, and you never, ever deserve to be hit by me. And it wasn't just that. The lies, the manipulation to hide my behaviors. And as he acknowledged those things, everybody in the group was just awestruck with this guy who had been pretty quiet most of the time. And now he's this real, authentic, coming clean truth. And, boy, I would love to have had the opportunity to see how his wife responded to that, because I wasn't able to be a part of that. That was someone else's job. But, boy, I tell you what, I see that over and over with when I work with couples working through betrayal trauma, where we address specifically the gaslighting symptoms, because that, to me, is really a core part of the coupleship healing is. Is the person who's used those behaviors, acknowledges them, addresses them, and confronts their own unhealthy habits or behaviors.

You know, Dr. Skinner, before we close up, I want to just make sure we. We touch on one other area. Yeah, that's you. I want to make sure that our listeners who are hearing this, and thank you for hanging in there through this tough topic. I want to make sure that what you receive today from this conversation is not shame, is not judgment, and is not criticism. We acknowledge this is a sensitive topic, and it might feel. Oh, hold on. We've talked about some things that I might be seeing or hearing that I don't want to see or hear. And I think it's important to recognize and just point out that you. You brought it up earlier. Just, just the, the cycles that we get into, and sometimes people will say, well, why don't you just leave? And I, I Want to acknowledge that there are a lot of reasons why we don't leave. And it can be dependence, it can be financial dependence, it can be because of children. There's a myriad. And I know, you know as well as I do, like, all of the things that our clients have told us over the years. And this is a very personal. As a therapist, as a clinician, we can say this isn't okay, this is unhealthy. But there's a process, usually that's involved in extricating or coming out of an abusive relationship or out of an abusive situation. It takes time, it takes support, a lot of support, and it takes a lot of preparation. Most people don't go cold turkey and this is done, this is over. It usually takes gathering strength, gathering resources, and it's a process. So I just want to make sure we're very clear that at least where I'm coming from, there's no judgment, there's no shame. More of a let's talk about this and start understanding and pointing out there are tools. There are. There is hope. And I know we want to share some of those before we end. What are your thoughts that, though, Dr. Skinner?

Yeah. So a couple of things. One is if you find that you have engaged in these behaviors, verbal criticism, put downs, ridicule, slamming a person emotionally, physically touching and harming another person, we can do better. And you can do better if you're to the point where you're that kind of overwhelmed and flooded. Learning how to create strategies, that's one of the core things that we did early in those groups with dv, where we would actually help individuals developing strategies and game plans. So when they started to get upset or angry, they knew what to do. Because when they knew what to do, it was like, oh, I need to do this. And their partner was so appreciative. So there are solutions. And it's really getting the help and not being afraid to ask for help. So many times people held back, they were afraid to get help. Reaching out is so courageous. So courageous.

And I want to share a phrase from a workbook that I inherited from another therapist that retired. And this workbook is called Change is a Third Path. And as you're talking about this, sometimes we think, well, you do it or you don't do it, and it either. And it's not always. It's kind of cut and dry of that. And I love that. Change is the third path. There is a third way, and it is change. And change takes trial and error, and it takes consistent effort. And it does take, take change. But it's usually not a yes or no. It's change.

And so when individuals learn the tools and learn the skills, they begin to have hope that they can respond in a different way. And so there is hope. If you are in a situation where your partner is, is engaging in those behaviors and you are feeling overwhelmed, you're feeling scared, then I'm going to strongly suggest the 1-800-799-7233. This is the National Domestic Violence Hotline. And if it's occurring, I again, we're so concerned that we want to make sure that you have that resource. But again, 1-800-799-SAFE. And our hope is that you don't have to ever use it. But what we know, and this is something that I found, is it doesn't stop on its own. Often we go through these cycles over and over and over again. If you are in that kind of a relationship, please reach out for help. You don't have to do it alone. I remember a few years ago, a good friend of mine, her name's Joan Shippen, she did what's called the Chain breakers association. And her whole association was to help individuals who had been, who had experienced some form of abuse. And she brought in all kinds of support people to help these individuals. And I was invited to be a speaker there on a somewhat regular basis. I was always amazed at the incredible people who were just needing help, wanting ideas, getting support. Anyway, so look, in your local community, there is a place to get a voice, to get support. And as couples, do everything you can to break these cycles because if you do, you can reclaim a deeper relationship or a more connected relationship. It's going to take time, but it is possible.

Now, let me add on, let me add on to that as a side note, sometimes I feel like you and I are, it's like a book, you know, like, let's talk about this book or let's talk about this book. But I have a couple of book resources that I'd like to share before we close up.

Yeah, please.

Pia Melody's book Facing Codependency. I'm not a huge fan of the codependency model. That's not where I usually look through a trauma lens. However, her book Facing Codependency does a really good job of kind of breaking down and going through different areas of abuse and helping tease it out and helping you to really see it. So that's, that's a helpful one. The Betrayal Bond by Patrick Carnes also has I Don't really recommend that one as an audible because it's full of assessments. It's full of, like, check this box, take this assessment. It's much more interactive than just listening to it. But that's also a really great one to really look at and understand, especially why am I bonded to people who have abused me or in these relationships? So that's a really good one for picking that apart. And then also I really appreciate the Betrayal Bind by Michelle Mays, which is looking at betrayal, trauma, and sex addiction. She does a great job of looking at the gaslighting and also about the way that we often assume guilt or assume, you know, I need to change something rather than challenging the relationship or challenging the abuser because it gives us a sense of control. It's easier to maybe to stay blind, to not see it, because if I do, then I have to change it. So she does a great job of really pulling that apart. And so those are three, at least literature, resources that, that I would share. Looking at this topic, because there is like, like we talked about before there. This is a process. Change is a process. And I hope more than anything that our podcast today, this really sensitive, difficult topic, has maybe helped you to see something a little bit differently and will maybe help you to look at your life and your relationships and notice, where can we do better? And I was going to just wrap up right there, but I have one more thought.

Yeah, go.

I mentioned earlier, you know, as a therapist, you and I are both, we're both mandated reporters. So if somebody reports abuse or the suspicion of abuse, we have to make a phone call. We don't have to investigate it or anything. That's just our job. We just need to report it. I think oftentimes people wait and they think, oh, I need to talk to a therapist. I need to talk to somebody about this. But anyone, if you are aware of abuse, especially to a child or someone who's elderly, anyone can make a call that's right there. Just call your local CPS or services and they can direct you. But you don't need to wait for a therapist or a church member, a clergy member to. To make that call. If you see it, I would encourage you to be aware of it and advocate and educate and talk about some of these harder things that we don't talk about very often.

Yeah. And I think we're. I think we're getting better at this. But when you reach out, there are so many more resources than there was when I began my career. There are organizations that are set aside. In fact, just the other day I was going to watch my son play tennis and I was listening on the radio because national, you know, information about domestic abuse. And it was interesting. They said we now are getting better at assessing. And there. So there's more assessment. So there's just so much more information. Have a voice. If you're experiencing or if you know somebody reaching out, getting the information, you'll be amazed at how many additional resources that we haven't even brought up today are available to you. All right, Marianne, thank you so much for your time today. Final thought, if you have one.

My final thought was probably after this session, make sure that you do some good self care if this has been triggering for you. Reach out, reach out to connect with other people who can be supportive of you and be good, Be good to yourself. Be good to other people.

Yeah. Thank you very much to our listeners. Thank you for going through this difficult topic with us. I, I recognize this may be one of the more difficult ones, but it is something that is one of the tremendous barriers to human connection. And so as we look at human connection, not just on the positive side, we also have to address some of these more difficult topics. So thank you for being with us. May you be blessed in your pursuit of human intimacy. Thank you very much, Miriam.

Thank you. Goodbye.

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