Bridging the Divide: How Seeing Each Other Can Heal Relationships (Episode #39)

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But smile when you smile and laugh.

When you laugh something around. Welcome to the human intimacy podcast, Dr. Kevin Skinner with my friend and colleague, Marianne Michaelis. Marianne, it's a beautiful fall day in at least here in Utah was a little bit chillier, but we're now heading into the month of November. You excited?

You know, the weather where I'm at is rainy. It's a little bit rainy. It's pretty cloudy today, but it does, it always feels like we're turning a corner. For me, as soon as we get past Halloween, it feels like everything just completely shifts. And now we're heading into the holiday season, which I know can be really stressful for a lot of people. And yeah, so there's always this looking ahead. I think that that starts happening right around now for me.

Yeah. And here in the United States, one of the other big things coming up is our election. Right. I know, I know there's a lot of people who are anxious today. Actually in our podcast, my hope is actually to address the, the concept of, of we've got a lot of people, I've seen a lot of people. They're so anxious about the outcome of the results of the election and we're in heading into this place of gratitude with Thanksgiving. But I think before we get there, we, we have a lot of people concerned about the election. And I honestly, I just want to address just that for just a second. And our topic today is actually seeing people, seeing our spouse, seeing people that we may have had conflict with and actually putting ourselves into a mindset of who are they?

I think this is such an important topic, especially as we're talking about possible change with our politics, with our political system here in the US and last week in our podcast, we talked about change. And there's always change, no matter what. One place that I'd love just to start as we're talking about this, several years ago during COVID I remember hearing clients talk about they. And it was during COVID and there were, you know, vaxxers and anti vaxxers, and there was so much conflict over some ideas and, and what people perceived as right and what people perceived as wrong. And people were very, very upset. They felt like their lives were being threatened, and in some cases they really were. But I heard, I heard language that really surprised me is my clients would say, well, they this and we that. And I just remember scratching my head and thinking, wow, who's they? Who is the they that you're talking about? Because it shifted from me and my needs and my world to kind of almost a victim place where. Or an I'm right and everyone or.

They'Re wrong or they're the enemy.

Yeah, yeah. And I, as I pondered that, I remember hearing a podcast from Brene Brown where she talked about this question that I think I've always had of how do people get to that place where they, where, where we can do horrible things to each other and how do you do that with a conscience? And Brene talked about when we objectify people, when we see people as they or as others, that's when it shifts and we lose compassion, we lose empathy. And so I think that's an important. Those are some important concepts to bring into this conversation. Just as we're starting out looking at how we look at ourselves and how we look at others, are we able to look at each other as humans with struggles, with challenges, with pains, or are we objectifying and saying there are they and they don't have emotions or feelings and so I can attack them or they want to hurt me. What are your thoughts on that, Dr. Skinner?

Well, I think from my perspective, we have grown as a culture to see so much conflict and so much division. Right. So much so that, you know, it's, it's one party against the other. And, and we've, we really are not seeing and listening and understanding each other's perspectives to the point where from a political perspective. But I see this also in relationships. I see it in school administrators and parents. I mean, I have seen this in so many places where there's a division conflict. And at the end of the day, I think if we were looking at this from a problem solving perspective, we are not using healthy problem Solving skills. Instead, we're seeing people. And again, it's not hard. I could watch, I could watch the political pundits. I could, I could listen to them and I would hear one side demonize another side and the other one demonize the other side. And I can see the same thing in marriages where they're do this, they're this and this and this, and they're this and this and this. And we can criticize and we can put down, but this pattern is the same when we stop seeing people, when we stop seeing the humanity, the person who's really there. And I don't care what your political preference is. Right. And, and for me personally, I've stepped back, I've had to analyze and I've, I've tried to understand, I've tried to listen to both sides and it's not easy when, when you see so much conflict between the different political parties or as a marriage and family therapist, when I see two people fighting, I ask the question, what are we fighting for? What, what's, what's the, what's the root of this? And that's the part that I think we are missing completely as a culture.

And I think you bring up such a good point with that. When we fight, oftentimes, if we're talking about fighting, oftentimes we say things because we feel like we're in a defensive position where we have to be right. We have to hanker, hunker down and really defend and not, not give any, any space. And so we might use unkind language, have unkind thoughts, or be judgmental. So just as you said or alluded to, we lose our compassion. But what we do when we fight is we push the other person further away and they feel attacked and so they also feel defensive and so they, you know, throw something back. And here we are moving further and further and further apart from, from each other when really what we all want, need is attachment and connection, but we don't know how to get it. And so in these cycles of conflict, we just push each other further and further apart.

You know, I want to give a very specific example that I recently had. So throughout my life, I've studied, over the last 30 plus years, I've studied the language of Chinese. I've lived in Taiwan, I've lived in China. I minored in Chinese. I actually did my dissertation with Chinese families, my thesis and dissertation with Chinese families. So I have grown a deep love for the Chinese culture and the Chinese people. And recently my wife and I, of all places, we Were on a cruise down to Mexico. Now I don't speak any Spanish, but here we are in a cruise. We're in a beautiful place. We've gotten off the ship and we're going to, I don't know, it's, it's a beautiful Catholic cathedral. We're on this walk. So we get off the boat and everybody wants us to get a taxi and do this and this, but we wanted to walk. And so we're walking with my in laws and all of a sudden I hear a couple behind me speaking Chinese and I'm like, what a great opportunity for me just to speak some Chinese and get to know some people because I love talking with Chinese people. So I start up a conversation and they're like, oh, you can speak some Chinese. I said, I can speak some Chinese a little bit. And they said, no, you can, you can speak more than a little bit. So we just kind of conversed in Chinese for probably 30 minutes now. I, I, I, I, I didn't hear everything they, I didn't understand everything they said, but I understood a lot of it. And, and at the end of our conversation they were going to be going, doing something else and I was, you know, trying to find my wife and my in laws because we got separated a little bit during this conversation. And he said something profound to me. He said, I know that our governments don't exactly see eye to eye. They don't get along. But you're a friend, right? And we can be pungyo. We can be friends. And I just, we had a conversation and it was a great conversation, it was fun. And I got to know him and his wife and to me, when we take out all the barriers of this, we see people and yeah, our government leaders, they may, we may have conflict with them. But, but here's this person who's just genuinely, I like, he said we don't need that, that other stuff. We can't. We just be friends.

That's beautiful.

I thought so. And every, and since then we had a conversation. We both came back and, and I've had a chance to talk with him and we exchanged emails and, and so again he said, come stay my place in China anytime you want.

From a 30 minute conversation.

From a 30 minute conversation.

Yeah.

He said, bring your family. We'd like to. China is beautiful. Bring your family. Bring your family. We want. Right. And, and that, that's again, when we see people. People, right. I mean, I don't care whether you're a Democrat or a Republican, when you could sit Down. And if we could have civil conversations, we have way more in common than we have apart.

And I think that part right there about civil and having more in common are so important. It is about sitting down. I know I sit down with my clients and we all judge. We see somebody and we make a judgment. It's just our brain trying to make sense of. Of something. But I sit down with my clients and I hear stories and boy, sometimes I just think, how. How are you even standing upright? We all have stories. And when we're willing to put down our. Our weapons or our armor and just see and hear another person fully, there is so much connection that happens. And so I love that story that you're sharing. I know Mr. Rogers, Fred Rogers. There's a. There's a quote that he shares, and I might be misquoting a little bit, but he says something to the. To the fact that we can always find conflict, we can always find enmity, we can always find that, we can always find the negativity. And he says, look for the helpers, because there are always helpers. And I think it's the helpers that I want to be the helper. I want to be the one that can sit back and say, hold on a second. Can I just zip up my judgment for just a minute and try and see this person in here? There's a video that was made, it was done by a hospital. I've seen it in a couple of different iterations, but says, you know, what if as you were walking down the street, every person that you ran across, you know, there was like a little blurb that said, this person just lost their parent. This person's worried about cancer. This person just lost their job. This person is dealing with self worth, images or whatever it is. If we saw what the other people in our lives or even on the streets we're going through, I think it would change the way that we treat them. I think it would bring about some compassion.

You know, that reminds. That reminds me of that story of this guy who was. And I may have shared this at a different time, but he was at a mindfulness training that was ordered by. I mean, he was. His job basically said, if you don't go do this, we. We're not sure we can retain you because you're. He blew up at his boss, and his boss said, look, this is not acceptable. So he's now basically his bo. His work is saying, you need to get help. So he goes to this mindfulness conference and he's doing this mindfulness training. And, you know, he. Honestly, his whole opinion was, this is just fluff, and it's, you know, wooey, gooey and yucky and whatever. I'm here. So right before lunch, they gave him an assignment. And the assignment was, you know, we want you just to go observe people during lunch. Be mindful of the people. And. And really kind of what you were just saying, like, I wonder what this person's going through. And I wonder what this person's going through. He's like, oh, whatever. So he goes and grabs something at the grocery store, and he's waiting in this line. And, you know, the. The lady in front of her's got this little older lady, you know, it looks like a grandchild. And the clerk is talking, and they're interacting and playful, and he's like, oh, my gosh, here I am waiting, and I'm. I'm trying to be mindful. They're driving me crazy because this line's getting longer, and here this woman is and. And playing with a child, and just, I mean, come on, let's go. Come on, let's go. But trying to be mindful. He's like, okay, mindfulness. I'm practicing this. He gets up to the front of the line and he says, oh, that was a cute, cute baby. And the clerk said, oh, you think so? That's my child. And that was my mom. My husband got killed in Iraq last year, and that's the only time I get to spend with my daughter. And all of a sudden, right here it is. That moment, that moment he took, set aside that. That perception, and. And again, I could have been angry. Instead, he says, that's a beautiful child. He now gets the story that you just described.

And Dr. Skinner, I want to point out something to our listeners that I just saw happening as you were telling that story, because I can see you as we're talking, we're having this discussion, and our listeners can't. But I saw in your eyes. I saw your eyes change. I saw your whole face change, especially as you were talking about that part. Like, I can see the sadness.

Oh, if that doesn't bring tears to your eyes. I mean, I mean, seriously, when you start to see people, right, like you said, this person's dealing with cancer. This person just lost a loved one. This person's got a child who's dealing with whatever it is, being bullied. When we stop and see people, we put down these weapons of verbal assault, and. And now let's apply it to a marriage. Let's apply it to this person who I'm. Who I've committed this, my life to, this person. Boy, when do we stop seeing them as the friend? And when do we start seeing them as the enemy?

Yeah, when does that shift?

So that's part of the question is how do we get from this place of, you are my friend, you are my lover, you're the person I care the most about. And now I'm scared, and I'm afraid, and I don't know you. And that's why deception is so painful. It's because I want to trust. I want to connect. And now I don't know if I can.

I have a quote.

Oh, yeah, go.

I've got a quote that just ties into that so much. And I love Patrick Karn's book, the Betrayal Bond. I. I know that I share things from it quite a bit, but it's. It's one of my favorite books. It just has so much information. But he says betrayal serves as a catalyst. For centuries, cultures took pride in their tolerance. Ethnic groups lived as neighbors and friends. Then there is an isolated act of violence. People suddenly feel betrayed. Feelings escalate, more violence occurs. A vengeful spiral ends in genocide, and atrocities, irretrievable hatred and trauma follow. And then he says, unless we learn how to handle betrayal and the tortuous, obsessional relationships that evolve out of treachery, we add to the betrayal of the planet. And then this is the part that I. I think is so important that you were just touching on. Trust is restored when we learn to trust ourselves, build trust with others.

That's beautiful. You know, and. And as a culture, is that not what we're trying to do? I mean, I. We live in a world that there can easily be conflict. But again, when we pause and we look at how we are approaching relationships, recently, I was talking with an individual, and he said, I grew up in a home where conflict was just. That's just what we lived in. It was just always fighting. It was criticism. It was. It was. It was like. It was like over dinner. I mean, we would just be fighting all the time. And. And, you know, going into a marriage, those expectations and the fighting was actually their way of. I don't know if you want to say it this way, but it was their way of playing.

And. And I can speak to that. Dr. Skinner. I grew up in. In a system where issues were discussed and conflict was healthy. And I know that we'll hopefully be talking about that in a little bit, but I grew up at Sunday dinners, going to my grandma's and. And hearing my aunts and uncles like they were in each other's faces about fluoride in the water and about what somebody said at church. And. And there's a part where it was like, wait, what's going on? But that was normal. I married somebody who did not learn how to have conflict like that. And I'm so comfortable saying, well, I see things a little bit differently and not necessarily having the same emotional investment, but saying, hey, let's look at this from five sides. And we used to have a friend years ago. He would come over to our house. We'd give him dinner a couple times a week. He was single. And. And he and I had different political views. And we would spend an hour or two just exploring and discussing. And my husband would just be like, just stop. He felt like we were fighting all the time. But this other person, we. We weren't. It was intellectually just so stimulating to see and hear and explore other ideas. And for us, it wasn't fighting, it wasn't conflict. But to my husband, who grew up in a different system, it felt very uncomfortable.

Yeah. And. And that's. That's exactly what talking about here. When, when we grow up in different climates, different environments, that's what you're talking about here, then we don't know how to perceive it. I don't know how to make sense of this. And in healthy human interactions, there's something that's noticeably absent. We've talked about the four horsemen, right? Criticism and contempt. There's probably something different in that interaction with your relative. There. There is still an underlying respect, and.

There'S a stability of the relationships not going anywhere.

If we disagree on something, we're bantering ideas. But. But we can. We can agree that, you know, I don't agree with you, but that doesn't mean I don't love you. And that is a huge difference. When we get to the point where we have. We can't cross the aisle and say, I see this human being. And, yeah, we don't agree on everything, and that is okay. Boy, that's a different way of looking at it. Right? It's okay that we have differences. In fact, we might be better because we have differences.

And I. I have so many thoughts on this, Dr. Skinner. When I think about what's happening right now in the US with the political system, with the election that's coming, and just the division that we have, that's so great, it's hard to think about and to also think our country was created because of conflict because of ideas and because people said, hold on a second, we don't love these ideas and conflict. I believe conflict is healthy. It's good. It helps us change, it helps us explore ideas. It helps us say, let's do something different or better or try something else. It doesn't keep us stuck in one place. However, I think there are unhealthy, healthy behaviors that can get caught up in the conflict, which is when it becomes personal, when we become attacking, when it becomes other oriented. What are your thoughts on that?

Yes, absolutely. I mean, I could go through multiple examples, but I always want to go back to relationships. When we no longer see or hear or listen to what somebody's actually saying, then really we're preparing, we're defending. We feel like we're under attack by what they're saying. In reality, we are going to have differences. And the more healthy marriages. This is an interesting thing. You look at John Gottman's research, you look at the research, couples who can have conflict and work through them are the ones that are the most resilient ones. It's the ones where we can't absorb the differences when we can't and don't listen to each other. And we then become enemies because we're on different sides. But when we see each other, man, I, I don't agree with everything. I, in fact, one of my, one of my good friends, we have different opinions on current politics and we go back and forth. Like I remember in Nebraska, I had a professor who was very adamant about one issue and I had a different opinion on it on the same issue. And we, we were good friends, but boy, we didn't agree on the way that things were going to be solved. And I thought, and I. And again, to this day, I'll never forget these really good conversations because that's what they were. They were good debates, good conversations because they're.

It sounds like they were healthy and there wasn't the attacking you as you said that I thought about the other side. Sometimes we get into conversations where we're digging in our heels and oftentimes I'll see my client. Where they're really invested is probably like the best word for this. Or they're just really invested in something that I'm right. And I think it's important to notice when we have really big emotions about something. We may have some wounding or some trauma. We may have some work that we need to do that comes from our past. And I say that several years ago, I remember hitting a period in my Life where I had probably three interchanges with people where it was almost word for word just the same scenario. It was very conflictive, it wasn't healthy. And I was stewing over it. And I was, you know, taking two or three hours to write an email or a text because there was so much emotional energy. When we notice that we've got such high emotional energy, I think it's really important for us to take a step back and go, hold on a second, second. What's going on inside of me? Because you were discussing a conversation with somebody where you had very. Sounds like pretty polar.

Yeah, for sure.

But you weren't. It doesn't sound like you were getting so energetic, like so much emotion.

You know, I. I actually look at it this way. I can learn from everybody. Everybody has something that they can teach me. And if I. If I see people that way, I'm always amazed at what they teach me. I really am. A few years ago, I was sitting with this person who. I honestly believe that nobody had sat down to truly understand what this person had been through. And as I sat and I just asked questions. I love asking questions to get to know people, how they think and why they think the way they do, and. And just truly trying to understand this. This person and their thinking. And as I did this, their spouse was sitting there and said, how are you doing this? My partners never talked this way. And all I was is just listening. I was asking questions, I was trying to understand on a deeper level. And when they were done, he said, I gotta learn to do what you just did. And I was listening and asking questions from a genuine place of wanting to understand. And. And that's really what I'm trying to do during this political cycle. That's what I've tried to do, is try to understand how do I understand both of these sides? And yes, there are even other opinions, but how do I understand what they're actually trying to do and say. And when I hear people coming and saying the end of this or the end of that or. Or this person in charge will do this and this, I'm like, do we not have political offsets? Do we not have a Senate? Do we not have a House? Do we not have this Congress? Do we not have. I mean, the reality is, is we have. We are very blessed in the United States to have checks and balances.

Yeah. Because I'm hearing you talk about the fear I think we often get, or maybe this is an aspect we haven't talked about yet. But fear often gets involved and Then. And we get really invested because this feels like it's going to impact me. Kind of going back to that conversation about COVID Like, it. For many people, it felt like it was life or death. And so suddenly, that fear just really. We get stuck in it. We get so much energy from the fear, and it's. It blinds us. It makes it really hard to see this is going to impact me this way. Therefore.

Yeah.

And.

And so then that's the concept. When I'm in fear, I stop seeing people. And that's, I think, honestly, that's why in our work, when we see people who've let down their partner and their partner's like, who are you? It's because the fear of, I no longer know who you are. I no longer. No longer know what you're capable of. And our. We're designed to protect ourselves. And so all of a sudden, this person that we once trusted and gave everything to, now we're asking a question, can I. Can I trust you?

And so as you're talking about betrayal, you're talking about a whole world that's been built on that trust that suddenly erodes. Which, boy, doesn't that throw off your whole understanding of, wait a second, do I have a bad picker? How did I not see this? There must be something wrong with me? And so we often internalize, even once again, that fear just jumps in and really does some good damage.

So let me give a couple of stories, or one in particular stands out to me. And that is when I, as a therapist, when I have the opportunity to hear people's stories. And we, we, we. I mean, that's one of the best parts of being a therapist, is we are able to witness people's stories. And I don't. Again, anxious, depressed people have been sexually acting out, people who've been betrayed, people who've been abused as child, people who've been bullied as children. Again, when we start and listen to the stories, one of the things that I found in my work in working with couples is they don't understand the story of their partner. And sometimes it's because they were afraid to share their story. Sometimes they are. Have had so much difficulty and trauma in their past that they don't bring it to the forefront as they're pursuing a relationship because they're embarrassed or ashamed. And in some cases, they've disassociated and don't even remember their story. But now here I am in an adult relationship and we've got conflict. And I'm realizing I'VE got to confront some of my past so I can be in the present in this relationship. And I've had people say, I, I, I've never looked back there because it was so dark and so ugly and so painful. I don't want to go back there. And yet when they do go back there and now they're presenting it to a spouse. Well, why didn't you tell me this earlier? It would have helped me understand you. There's a power in personal exploration and, and not being afraid to share it in a safe environment.

Yeah, you're, I, I, I hear how you're talking about the wounding that we all carry, and that wounding we can get stuck in shame or inability to access because we don't know how, we don't have the tools or know how to access it. But as you were telling that, I'm just thinking of so many of my clients who have, you know, part of the therapeutic work that I do with my clients is helping them to show up all the way to be authentic and to share their stories with the people around them, as you said, who are healthy and safe. But boy, do things change when stories.

Are shared in a beautiful way. Right. Because we start to understand people now. I, I want to, I want to say something here because I, I can, I'm going to guess that some of our listeners and people who will never listen to this podcast, if they were to listen to this podcast, would say something to this effect. But you don't understand. You really don't understand. You don't understand. XYZ is going to happen. XYZ is going to happen. You don't understand. My partner did xyz. You don't understand. You're right. I don't understand your very, your specific situation. But do you, do we really understand people? Do we really understand why people do what they're doing? Do we understand why they're thinking? Because I think we make assumptions that, yes, we know the answer. How many times in my life have I thought I understood something and I was wrong?

You're talking about, like, the stories that we, we tell ourselves, stories to interpret things. We assume and make assumption of assumptions about other people, about their intentions, and then we shape our world around that. And so I love how you're talking about, as we slow down, as we listen to the stories, we have meaningful conversations. I think it's such an important and difficult part to put away our own hurt and pain for just a minute and to be able to, I call it, you know, putting yourself in your Back pocket and say, right now, my. All of my stuff doesn't matter. I just want to listen, to learn. And one of the tools that I love that I've learned over the years is to say, say more about that. Tell me more. Just trying to climb in to the other person and see from their perspective. And I just want to keep hearing more of that story. And then what. And then what happened? And what did that feel like? Trying to figure out, wow, if I were in that situation, what would that have felt like for me? And, oh, there's so much connection that comes from that. Because if I'm not arguing with you about it, if I'm just trying to learn from this open place, I think we usually find that we have so much in common, and that's where we feel people.

A few years ago, I was running a group just to kind of illustrate your point here. And we were talking about the importance of understanding. And the group's whole, whole goal for that group, my whole purpose was to help them understand their partner. Now, I've done domestic violence groups. I've done SA groups, alcoholic groups. I've done groups with substance groups. I've done all kinds of groups. And this universally, this is one of the core assignments that I give to people, is to seek a deeper understanding of what your partners experienced because of your behavior. And in this particular group, I'll never forget it, the assignment was, I need you to go home and I need you to listen. Just ask your partner a question. And it was this. Help me understand how my actions have influenced you. And. And there was a lot of prep for that, because going into that, if you. If you're not prepared for that and you've got a lot of shame, you're not, you know, you're not going to be able to hear your partner's pain.

Yeah.

And. And so we did a lot of prep work around the shame and helping them withstand. And. And. And this person, you know, he says, every time I get close to this type of question, we fight, we fight, we fight. And I said, okay, so I'm going to invite you just to stay present and listen. Try to understand what your wife is saying. And he said, okay, I'm gonna. I'm. I am gonna do that the best I can. Okay, so here we are the next week, he comes in and he raises his hand. First he wants to share what he learned. He said, okay, I took. I took it to heart. And so he said, I didn't just ask once, because you told us to keep asking to Learn more. To learn more. He stayed with her in the story. He said, we've not had that kind of a conversation in probably years. It was probably the best conversation we've had. And I said, well, what. What happened? He said, I went home and she. She started. I said, I really want to understand you. She started sharing. And he said, and I tried listening to what she was saying. I said, so what you're saying is. And he was reflective in what she was saying. And she kept on going. And he's like, by the time she's done, it was the first time I've actually realized how painful my actions have been. And he said, that changed me. It changed her. She's actually more open with me now, and I'm understanding her, and I don't feel as much shame because she shared her pain. I mean, and he was just modeling for the group, just a beautiful example.

And what, what I think is super important about that, Dr. Skinner, is, is you highlighting the work. He had to work so hard to be able to put himself on the back burner and to be present with her.

Well, for so, for so long, he was the victim. He was the victim of her anger and the victim of her frustration. And, and he shifted and, and, and truly, it wasn't that he wasn't trying, but in that occasion, he. Instead of him becoming defensive, he was curious. Powerful.

Yeah, that's. That is powerful. One of the two topics I want to make sure that we touch base on today is. Is when I think of top of. Of conflict. Years ago, my husband was working on his master's program, and he was given a. An assignment or one of his courses was built and focused on a book called the Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni. And so remember I had mentioned earlier that my husband's culture that he grew up in was conflict avoidant. And, and it was fascinating to observe what happened with my husband as he was taking this course, as he was learning that One of the five dysfunctions of a team, as according to Mr. Lincione, is fear of conflict and avoidance of conflict. And what he said is, if you are in a. If you're on a team and there's only one voice, and everybody says, okay, great, that's what we'll do. If there's not healthy discord, if there's not healthy discussion, if there aren't differing opinions, it's actually an incredibly dysfunctional state, because you know that everybody there does. If you've got five people in a room, you can have at Least five opinions. And if only one person's talking and everybody's agreeing, that's not healthy. Oftentimes what I see as a therapist is where somebody say yeah, that's fine because we're, we were taught that it's bad to say I have a different opinion, it's bad to have conflict. And so we are often trained to be very conflict averse. But I wanted to share one of the quotes that I really appreciate from there. He says it's important to distinguish productive ideological conflict from destructive fighting and interpersonal politics. Ideological conflict is limited to concepts and ideas and avoids personality focused, mean spirited attacks. However, it can have many of the same external qualities of interpersonal conflict. So passion, emotion, frustration. So much so that an outside observer might easily mistake it for unproductive discord. And then he goes on to say that many people avoid conflict in the name of efficiency. But he says it's so contrary because then we end up not saying something or we avoid conflict to avoid hurting other people's feelings. And that's the other concept I really want to make sure we touch on. But that ends up creating this dangerous tension because when we don't openly debate and disagree about important ideas, we often turn to back channel personal attacks. So I can't say it to your face. I can't say that I don't like what you said. I can't, I don't know how to disagree respectfully. And so then I'm going to turn around, I'm going to talk about it to other people and nothing gets resolved because nothing's brought to the table to work together on. What are your thoughts on that?

You know, there's something you just said there that really just rings true to me. When we think that conflict is bad, we limit our understanding because differing opinions help us. But, but when we can't receive differences that, and I think that's a major challenge in our society today is we can't receive people that we have differences with, with whom we have differences. That's a problem. The like he said there, then we don't talk about it because we're all in agreement, which is a problem, or we avoid it. So I think you take those two concepts. If we are afraid of conflict, we've got to learn how to communicate effectively. That's our job. And that means that we stand up and we, we do say things that are uncomfortable, recognizing that we're going to have differences. But that, that also means that we have to receive people and seek a deeper understanding. Why do you Help me understand why you see it that way. Help me understand your thoughts. Those types of curious questions get us into a place of deeper awareness and understanding. I firmly believe we have way more in common than we have differences.

And I agree so much with that. Especially we haven't gone here quite yet. But it's, I think there's so much to learn about ourselves. So when you say something that I really disagree with, what is it in me that disagrees with that? What is it? Do I have something unattended that I need to address or like, why does that feel threatening to me? There's so much to learn there. One thing I have to show you this mug. I know our listeners can't see it, but I, I had this mug made because I reference it so much with my clients. But it says someone's therapist knows all about you. And I use, I, I use this with my clients because when we avoid disagreeing or saying, I see things differently when we avoid. Because I don't want to hurt your feelings. I don't want to say something that you won't like. That's not letting somebody else. We've talked about this previously, but it's, it's, it's a false world. It's a fantasy world. But it's okay for somebody to not like what I say and to have to figure, figure that out. It doesn't mean that I need to be mean spirited or unkind or, you know, we've talked about those four horsemen. But it's okay for people to say things and for me to have to really work through. Why is it that that bothered me so much? What is like, it's such a great opportunity for us to look inside of ourselves and to also really learn how to manage our own emotions. What, what do we do when someone says something that I don't like or I disagree with? And is that something that I need to talk to a therapist about and figure out what's going on inside of me so that I can resolve that, so I can show up in a different way.

Absolutely. So as we get ready to close up today, there's a couple of core things that you just said that I want to illustrate. There are questions. If we have differences with people, we would be best to say, I wonder why they see it that way. I wonder what their life experience has been that brought them to that conclusion. Help me think through that. Help me understand, because now I'm seeking that awareness. People are going to have differences of opinion, but when we can lean into it and not Run from it, we're going to have better outcomes. That's one concept. The other is when we do this as a society, then we embrace differences and people, and we treat people with respect because of our differences, not because they always align with us. That's the type of society that thrives because it's based upon people of uniqueness, not complete similarities.

I love what you said right there. Usually you ask me like, what's your takeaway? How do you want to end up today? And as you, as you were saying that, the word that came to my mind was facets. And I think I'd love to end today by inviting our listeners to look for the facets. All of us are just so multifaceted. We have stories, we have reasons behind everything. And this, the more we can slow down and listen and look for the different facets in, in each other, the, the deep down things that give reason and meaning, that is where we find the connection. That is where we find intimacy. And that is what we're all really looking for. I'm not black or white, one thing or another, I'm multifaceted and so is every other human being. And so as we slow down, I, I want to thank our listeners for being here with us and invite them to look inside once again with self compassion and then look outside looking for the facets with compassion.

Ah, thank you, Marianne. Thank you so much. Been a great dialogue today to our listeners. My hope, our hope is that we've given you something to think about when it deals, when you're dealing with conflict and differences. Our hope is that we'll all, all of us have an open mind to the world around us so we can learn. And as we go through this political cycle and as we go through conflict in our lives and our relationships, our invitation is that you'll look at it in a way that helps you see people. That's when we see people and we allow ourselves to be seen, then intimacy is a possibility and a probability. So thank you so much, Marianne, for your time. Thank you for our listeners for joining us. And as I have said before, have a good, fantastic, outstanding, marvelous, extraordinarily great week.

Thank you.