Consent, Communication, and the Core of Intimacy (Episode #65)

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There's something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh. Hello and welcome. My name is Marianne Michaels and I am here today with my friend and colleague Dr. Skinner here on the Human Intimacy podcast. And we are so grateful to to having to have you join us today. Dr. Skinner, let's just check in with how are you today? Where are you at?

You know, I Marianne, I am in the lovely city of Philadelphia. I just finished doing a conference which has been phenomenal with the Catholic Psychotherapy Association. So really great, great conference. And interestingly I had a lot of people who I just highly religious people that are friends of mine that I've been talking with about just giving me some feedback and just things to present and anyway, so it's been a great day for me being able to spend time with a lot of Catholic therapists and just, just really honored to be here and then really enjoying the city of Philadelphia.

Oh well, it's. I love that technology allows us to be able to connect from anywhere in any place and especially to have this opportunity to meet and have our conversation today together, you and I and also with our listeners that will be joining us. So thank you to those who are joining us today as we get ready to dive into today's discussion. Today we've been talking about, we've been talking about what, what can we talk about that might be helpful for our clients and for our listeners? And one of the topics that has been coming up for me with several of my clients recently is the topic of consent. And so today for our listeners, we're glad that you're here and we welcome you to dive into this topic of learning about consent, what consent is and what Consent isn't in a relationship. And so when we, as we start out, Dr. Skinner, what are your initial thoughts with just when we talk about consent, what comes to your mind?

First, I think two parts for me. One is the individual who has come to my office and they, you know, they aren't, aren't satisfied with their relationship. They feel rejected. They feel like their partner is, you know, misleading them. And so I've seen it from the individuals who like, I think we're going to be sexual and then, no, we're not sexual. I think we're going to be and then we're not sexual. So there's that part of it. So the confusion on the, on one partner and then I've heard it from the other end. It's like I feel like my spouse doesn't respect any boundaries. I can say no. And they keep pushing and they keep pushing and they get upset and they get angry. And so, you know, I eventually either give in, so maybe consent, but it's, it's really maybe coerced or pushed, forced. And then there's just cases where it's like my partner won't stop touching me, right? They, they're incessantly pushing me and pushing me and pushing me and I just, I finally, I just, I, I don't want the fight and so I give in. And so it may be resistant consent. I'm, I'm resistantly or resentfully consenting and so I have a built up frustration. So I think there's different, different venues or av or ways to look at this. Marianne. And I think a really important topic is consent because for healthy couples learning how to communicate about are we going to be sexual or not be sexual, that maybe the type of sexuality. All important topics that we want to address today.

Oh, wow. I, what I heard you talking about was communication and agreements and oftentimes couples don't have that. I know for many of my clients there's a belief. I hesitate a little bit even just to say this, but I hear it so often. But there's an idea that there's a wifely duty or for me to be a good wife or a good spouse. Then there are specific expectations regarding sexual. And there are a lot of misconceptions or things that are taught culturally about specifically women and their roles sexually in relationships. And I, I hope that today as we have this conversation that we can maybe clarify some of those things because as you talked about, you, you, you mentioned a couple of things that I think are really important and that is you didn't say these words, but what I heard you talking about is self betrayal. That comes up when I maybe don't want to do that or I feel like I have to. I'm obligated to. And, and I think. I think we get to do two things. We either self betray and we say, okay, yeah, I'm going to do this because especially if my partner has an addiction or a compulsive relationship sexually, I might just say, oh, you know what? This will just make him stop pestering me. So I'm just gonna, you know, it'll just. It'll fix things. And so I can use sex maybe as a band aid. Not because I really want to, but because it's my job or I need to. I'm using it as a band aid. So I'm not really willingly giving it or wanting to give it, but I'm engaging that way or I can just. And part of that, sometimes we have even some dissociation. I'm just gonna be here, be used, close my eyes, get it over with. And that's not consent either.

Well, not only is it not consent, but I've. I've actually had people say, well, let's just get it over with. Yeah, right. And. And I think that speaks more to a sexual dynamic. Like I'm doing this out of duty or obligation rather than I'm doing this to enjoy it. And I think that form of self deception is I. I'm not having a voice for what I really want. And the question is, why don't I want to enjoy this sexual experience with my spouse? Right. What are the barriers? And often we see that there's some kind of trauma or some kind of betrayal or. Or maybe it's the expectation that it's just. Just I can't meet your expectations. It's, as I often have heard, it's insatiable. I can't give you enough. And so, you know, we. We get into this. These relationship dynamics that are very complex. And, and let me just give you an example of this. So what's the difference between that? Well, I, I just. I want to make sure my partner's happy versus I do it because they. They're pushing me. And I. Right. So there's this b. I want them to be happy in contrast with. I just, I resent it. I don't. I mean, I feel pressured all the time. And it's. It's. It's really. I don't even feel like I have a choice because it's. There's just so Much pressure.

So I hear you asking that question, what's the difference? And I think that difference, when I hear you ask that, I hear that and say, I think the difference is communication. I think the difference is respect, mutual respect, and probably a lot of communication. If I am busy with kids and work and menus and laundry and all of these things and I'm just so busy and at the end of the day I collapse into bed and then my partner wants to have sex, that might not even be on my mindset and I might have to look and say, do I have the reserves for this? But that's a conversation. It needs to be a conversation with mutual respect and understanding versus maybe an expectation.

So, Marianne, do me a favor. Let's do, let's go through this. How would you define consent?

So for me, consent. So let's talk about sexually. Most of the time, especially if we're married, we don't, we don't always say to our partner, hey, would you like to have sex? Usually it's a touch, it's a look, it might be a comment, but usually it's a lot of nonverbal language. You know, if you share a bed, you know, you roll over you the bed, you put your hand on your partner's back, something like that, there's, there's usually touch. So usually in a marriage, oftentimes there's, there's a, or a relationship. There's this ebb and flow of non verbal communication regarding sexual intimacy. And so I would say if, if I'm looking at it from that lens, consent would be returned engagement. It'd be not resistant, not reluctant, but it would be a forthright engagement. It wouldn't be a coercion. It wouldn't be, let me just see if I can get them warmed up. If I just keep going, maybe they'll get there. But it would be a look, it would be like a confirmation between two people.

So you're describing a word. It's voluntary. I have choice.

There we go. Yeah. Yes. You did it. I, I did everything but use that word. But yes, but.

So I'm voluntary. I'm choosing to, to engage with you in this act.

Yes. Yes.

Right. So, so really important part. Informed. Right. And if we look at this, I've had many times people have come to my office a little confused and, and there's a lot of dialogue going on. This, I've heard this over the Internet. You know, I wake up in the middle of night and my spouse is touching me.

Yeah.

Or in some cases having sex with me. Right. That's not feeling informed.

Right.

And yet going back and forth, some people say, well, that's rape. And. And maybe in the context of some relationships, it may be. And maybe couples have an agreement like, you know, if you're aroused in the middle of night, wake me up and we'll go. Right. So it depends on going back to this communication. Right. So. So I think it's really important that couples even. I mean, if you're. If your spouse says, hey, I don't want to be touched, and especially while I'm sleeping, that's a. Respecting a boundary. But some couples may not have that at all. They're like, yeah, if you're feeling aroused and it's the middle of that, I don't mind you waking me up. So I think we have to informed. It's a choice, voluntary. And I think that that's part of what I think is missing when consent is not present is there's a relationship dynamic. You said it earlier. It's communication. Can we conversations and can we have these harder conversations about what happens when I don't want to be sexual? How are you going to respond? How am I going to respond in this. In this dynamic between us?

Absolutely. And I think that, man, there's. There's so many points that you bring up here that we could hit on. One that I really try to emphasize with my clients is it's okay to feel sexually frustrated. It's okay for your partner to feel sexually frustrated. It's okay for you to not be aligned with what your partner desires, either direction. And even in the middle of having sexual intimacy, it's okay to say, wait, I changed my mind. So just because we have consent one time doesn't mean that it means every time. And there's not an implied okay. You know, we had it on Saturday, so Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, it's great too. It's. It's an interaction, and it is that communication. But even in the middle, if there's a trigger or something happens or it just doesn't feel genuine, it's okay to say, I need to stop. And to expect that your partner will respect you enough to say, oh, okay, I'm going to respect that you're not able to be here right now and this isn't working for you. And to stop, even if they're. They might feel discomfort or frustrated.

And. And let's talk about this for a second, right? This is really important because from my perspective, in those moments, how the couple responds is really critical. In fact, in relationship Repair after betrayal. I often say that there is going to be a trigger. There's something that's going to happen. How you guys deal with those moments will actually determine, probably long term, your strength of your relationship and how you deal with sexuality. So, for example, I'm gonna give you two different responses. What are you talking about? You've aroused me and now you're just gonna pull away. You are such a tease. Contrast that with, whoa, something's just happened. Do you mind helping me understand and sharing with me? That's what I'm talking about. Two very different responses. Because if I'm attuned, something's happened inside of you, should I not want to understand rather than just focusing on this sexual outcome, an orgasm, but focusing specifically on a connection with you, my partner, something just happened inside of you. I want to be sensitive. I want to be aware. That might draw you to me all by itself. Just being sensitive and aware of something happening.

I love how you're talking about that. I would cause, like, one of the responses could be anger or pouting. And it's very selfish. It's about me. It's about my enjoyment, about what's happening for me in this moment. And you just turn that off and that's no longer an option for me. And let's. Let's talk as a human. Of course that's going to be frustrating. Hold on a second. I was ready to go here. I was, I was in the moment enjoying this and wait, what? We have to stop. It might take a second to switch gears and go, hold on a second. Let me, let me put on the brakes. I was going 70 and now we just slammed on the brakes. Of course, there might be a moment where it's like, oh, a pause. But yes, being able to come back and say, hold on a second. What's going on for my partner? I have so many partners who've been betrayed, who, in the moment of having sex with their partner, they may look at their partner and. And be triggered thinking, wait a second, he did this with someone else, or, wait a second, what are they thinking about right now? And. And it just ends for them right there. It's a trigger and it just stops. And they have two choices. Either I can just get it done with and pretend, or I can honor where I'm at and say, this is too much. And I want to encourage our listeners. I know this is a heavy topic, but the more that you honor where you're at, you honor your emotions, the healthier it will be. Because if not, then there's resentment that builds and there's inauthenticity because there's a self betrayal of I feel this way, I'm done. I don't want to be here, but okay, let me just get it done. That doesn't build connection or intimacy.

So let's talk about two, two different responses here in two different interactions. So if I'm the person who's been triggered, I, I also have choice. I can communicate the trigger. I might not feel safe doing so because in the past there's been conflict or fight. So I might just say I'm done. But ultimately what that does to the relationship, it doesn't answer a question. It doesn't. There's no information. And so some couples are. That's going to lead to more conflict because I don't know what just happened. And in a, maybe a more mature interaction it would be, something's triggered me and I might not be ready to talk about it. Let me think about it. Something's happening. Can we talk about it? And both part, both partners are able to respect that trigger has been hit and then recognize we're still. We need to address it, we need to talk about it. Because if you don't talk about it ever, then both partners. Parties. Parties are going to be resentful and that's going to create, that's going to create a tremendous amount of problems.

I want to bring in the concept of the fight or flight. When we are triggered, our autonomic nervous system kicks in saying hold on, something's not safe. That's what a trigger is. Is our body reacting to some type of stimuli. Even if it's a thought that something saying I'm not safe right now. So I either need to avoid, I either need to fight or I need to run away or I'm shutting down and freezing. And so recognizing if that's what's happening to our partner. It's not because I'm the worst person in the world or I need to go into a shame spiral because of this because it's probably. It may not even be about me, but recognizing my partner might not be able to even have that convers conversation yet. They may need some time and space because when we're in fight or flight we are in survival mode. We are not our prefrontal cortex, which is our logic and our reasoning and even, even the, the speech center of our brain, those aren't engaged in that moment. And so recognizing it might take a minute for us to be able to have that conversation. And my partner Might need to reach out to some support people to get some support to start working through, because they may not even know exactly what happened.

So, so another part here is a cue of agreement. So a cue. Something's happened, need to take a time out, need to take a break. That's it. That. Right. A proper cue is that I understand something's happened. And instead of becoming defensive, I, I maybe frustration. Frustration, sure, it's okay to be frustrated and yet respectful of what's just occurred in your partner. See, it can be both. And it doesn't have to be, oh, you're frustrated. Well, yeah, physically you're frustrated. I can respect that. And I can respect this boundary that needs to occur for you to feel safe because something's happened inside of you and the trigger. Because more than anything, I want to have an authentic, healthy sexual relationship and something just happened where safety left the room really important.

And as you said earlier, this is where relationships are built. Can you be for. There for me even when I'm triggered? Can you be there for me when I need some space? Can you be there for me when I say, no, I need to stop, or no, I'm not interested in that right now? This is where we build trust.

And, and it goes both directions, right? If I. If you're not communicating that, if you're, if it's not being spoken and I don't know what you're. What you're actually experiencing, and you won't let me into that space, then, then from a person who is trying to connect, then that feels like continuous rejection. And I don't know why. And so we have to. This is so hard. This is such a delicate part because you have to be safe. And if you fought about it in the past, then you have to deal with the wounds from the past. And that's often why I find that this sexual reintegration with couples after betrayal and maybe even sexual bonding in general, it takes time, it takes effort, it takes practice. It's just not one of those things you just easily. Do couples struggle with making sense of their sexual interactions, even without betrayal.

Absolutely. And I want to. I want to just back up. Even though this is not where we're. What we're talking about right now. I just, I want to Point out 1, 1, not caveat. But oftentimes when I'm working with clients and we're sitting down and we're going through their sexual history, just getting. As I'm getting to know and understand them, we talk about that. I've had an awful Lot of clients tell me about being the. Under the influence of alcohol or some substances. And, you know, when you're blackout drunk, there's no consent.

Can't be.

You can't be. And I have an awful lot of clients who will tell me about waking up and having no memories and realizing that something happened. And there's so much trauma with that. There's so much guilt with that. There's so much confusion with that. And so I just want to be really explicit as we're having this conversation. Consent means voluntary communication, but making sure that the other person is in a state where they can voluntarily communicate, not under the influence of alcohol or substances.

This is one of those conversations. In the book Talking to Strangers, Malcolm Gladwell has a chapter on. On this topic related to substance use and gives a scenario that was a real life scenario. Boy, I really recommend that chapter should be read by everybody going to college. It should be absolutely read by everybody in high. In fact, in high school. It should be read by everybody as it relates to substance use.

Absolutely. He talks about. Especially as he talks about the differing quantities of male and female physiology, like the amounts and how the impacts of it. I absolutely agree with that.

And I think the importance of that is we all need to understand if we're using substances, you may not be mentally able to make that decision, and yet your body is right. And so it's a very dangerous spot for everybody, especially for women. As he talks about the consumption that women are drinking so much, and really what it does to the body is the blood alcohol level. That chapter alone, I honestly think it should be mandatory at every university before. It's like an entry into our university requirement.

Yeah, that is a really important. One of my favorite books. It's got so much information in it. So I think another aspect of this that I want to make sure that we. We touch on is. Is. How do I say this the right way? Maybe the. Let's talk about the guilt. I have an awful lot of clients who come into my office carrying a lot of guilt where they're saying that might not have been consensual. And there's a lot of pain there. And I see a lot of clients really tortured by that.

You're talking about a person who feels like their partner took advantage of them or the person who they took.

They took advantage of their partner. Yeah, yeah.

So let's go both directions here. I want to talk if you feel like you have done something that was not consensual to your partner. I think an open admission and acknowledging it and a respectful apology and acknowledging that that behavior is not okay with me. And I realize that it's hurtful to me that I did that to you, somebody I love and cherish. I think that that is a starting point and it's an important one because it's owning it. The alternative to that is to say nothing. And then your partner may build a resentment and you may feel like, oh, well, was that. I guess that's okay. They didn't say anything, which is why it's so important to talk about these difficult things in relationships. The other side of that, Marianne, is if you feel like your partner has taken advantage of you and do you say something, do you not say something? Do you. Do you have that creative boundary? Or do you feel like, oh, well, I'm married and I just. I guess I have to just. That's what I have to do. Those are, again, in my experience, those are the two common ones that I deal with. But that first one takes a lot of maturity to own. You know, I don't want to hurt you. And if. If it comes across that way, that's wrong on me.

Yeah, I really like how you talk about the. Or what came up for me as you were talking about that is as you take responsibility. I can't go back and fix what's in the past. I. I mean, I can't change what happened. It did happen. But what I can do is I can acknowledge what happened, I can take responsibility for what happened, and I can change and I can have a living amends, meaning as I move forward, I am amending my life to make sure that that won't ever happen again and to make sure that I live in a better way, to create more safety and trust. And I. I think that's important.

What's interesting for me here is our biology. And what I mean by that is, is generally speaking, males wake up in the middle of the night or early morning. That's when their testosterone levels are the highest. So generally speaking, just from a biological perspective, men are generally going to be more aroused early morning. That's just a biological reality. That doesn't mean I have the right. It doesn't mean I should enforce or push my will. It's just a biology, biological reality. A conversation in a coupleship, a mature conversation, could be around the biological response. When a woman is ovulating, she wants to be more sexual because that's generally when her body is going to feel more sexual because she's ovulating. I mean, we should address the Realities of life. And we should be. We should be sensitive to each other and respectful. Just because I'm aroused doesn't mean I have to have sex.

I. To invite my clients to, to look at frustration in a different light, to be able to say, wow, this is amazing that my body, it's responding the way that it should. This is a healthy response. There's nothing wrong with me. If I'm interested in having sex with my partner, that's normal, that's healthy, I should rejoice in that. And if my partner's not interested in that, can I slow down and just be present and go, wow, I'm gonna just, for a minute, just sit here and enjoy. I can enjoy feeling aroused and just notice what's going on in my body. And usually within about five to 15 minutes, it passes. But I can just be really present and say, I don't have to do anything with this at all, but I can just go, wow, let me notice. Let me just be really present and aware of what's going on with my body, what this feels like, and can I just sit in this feeling? And it passes and it works.

And what generally happens there is. It does. And the reason why it does is when you get on with life, you move, you do things, your life, your life, your energy shifts. And so again, part of this is self awareness. Where am I at? And I would say both directions. If, if your partner and we, at some point, we're going to deal with sexual desire discrepancies. Huge, huge topic for me, just looking at the research and the discrepancies that occur in relationships and how we address them as couples, because I don't think we are. I don't think we're dealing with these discrepancies. And I know we're not dealing with them well. In fact, one of the leading indicators of low relationship satisfaction is high sexual desire discrepancies. And so we're going to have discrepancies in how we address those. Marianne, that's a topic for a different day. But learning how to deal with those discrepancies is what mature couples need to learn to do.

And so what I'm hearing you underlining here, you didn't say these words, but it's about learning how to communicate, about communicating where we are, where I am, about my partner being able to communicate where they are and to be able to have these mature conversations. I want to hit another facet, if we can, right here. And this other facet is sometimes my clients will say, well, we got Married. And it just is like, okay, any. We can do anything. Like, like, there's. There's no boundaries, basically. And I think it's important that there needs to be consent. Regarding behaviors, I often have clients say, well, my partner wanted to do this. I wasn't really comfortable with it. But because they wanted it or they liked it, I. I did that. And I know that's one of the criteria that we look at when we' looking at betrayal trauma is how often has my partner forced or pressured me to do something that I felt uncomfortable with. And. And so I think that I definitely want to make sure it's part of our conversation that it's okay to say, well, I'm willing to try it, and then say, yeah, I didn't like that, or I don't like that, or I want to stop it. It's. I believe that sexual intimacy is. It's all about communication. It's all about attunement. It's never about, I'm using you so I can be sexually gratified. It's a connection between two people, and it's. It's an interplay back and forth, making sure that both people are present.

Marianne, I'm absolutely convinced we could spend weeks on multiple. Multiple elements of what you just said. Yeah, because when we come to our sexuality, we have different arousal templates. They're not necessarily wrong or right, good or bad. There are things that arouse us. People have different things that arouse them sexually. Again, not right or wrong, just different. But when we, as a couple, and I know we're leaning a little bit away from consent, but not really. When my only way to be sexually aroused is, say, XYZ behavior, then it becomes my focal point, and I'm so focused on it that I'm actually missing this attunement with us sexually. And so it's almost like I've become so laser focused, this is the only way I can be aroused, and that maybe that's the deepest high you can get. But again, are you missing out on the bond, the attunement that sexuality creates? And that would be a learning experience. If you find that you can only be aroused this way, boy, I'm going to invite you to learn more about your body and your spouse and your connection and attune to them in ways that maybe you haven't had the opportunity or taken the opportunity to understand.

You know, as you say that, I'm. I'm just reminded of a previous client I had, and they. They told. They said, you know, for Me, the, the beauty of sexual intimacy is there is a moment when I am fully seen and when we are focused on our, Our own arousal. I, I think we might miss that.

And again, not that we can't, because there may be certain things that are more arousing, but, but again, it's a couple's dance of communication and what's arousing and respecting our partner and understanding they may or may not want to do something, and sometimes they may want to do it, and sometimes they may not want to do it. Consent is always going to be consent, including sexual acts.

As a therapist, I remember the first time I really encountered this. I was working with a group of women who'd been betrayed. And we were having this conversation and I had a client stop and say, wait, I can say no. And we said, yeah, you absolutely have the right to say no to anything that you feel uncomfortable with. And this woman burst into tears. She had been experiencing marital rape for 19 years and didn't have any idea that she could say no to things that she was uncomfortable with. And it, it changed that conversation, changed her life, and brought her into a space where she started to be able to say, wait a second, I, I can say no. And I want to make sure that we, we highlight. Sometimes there's. Especially because of previous trauma or abuse that we may have experienced. We may have learned in our past that my job is to please someone else, that my job is to. Or I may have learned that I don't get to have a voice sexually. And I want to make sure that we just address that and say that that's not true. You get to say what you are okay with, what happens with your body and what happens with you sexually. I want to be very clear on that.

And marriage or any, Any relationship in which we are committed to one another, we should respect that and we should honor that. Because at any time when we don't, then we're putting ourself, our self needs, in many ways, our selfishness ahead of this relationship. Our goal is to. Should be to have the most intimate relationship we can possibly have. And when I say intimate, I'm not talking sex. I'm talking about. It's a safe environment where I can be myself and allow each other to understand, to express, to explore, to enjoy one another. And true human sexual intimacy is truly that bond that it. I don't feel pressured. I don't feel. I might feel your. Your strong desire, but I can respect the fact that if you say no, then that's okay. Let's let's set up another time tomorrow morning. Another time. But, but that's a gift that we give to each other, is the willingness to adapt to each other.

As I heard you talking about that, what came to my mind is I, I think especially when we're dealing with sex addiction, there's a counterfeit and that there's, you know, we have lust versus love, and, and lust is not usually driven by connection and attachment and bonding. And that is the basis of, of, of a loving relationship. And so we can be striving for this sexual experience, but oftentimes that sexual experience, yeah, they'll. There may be an orgasm, but it won't. As human beings, we are all striving and deeply yearning for connection, to be seen, to be loved, to be accepted. And we want and need to bring that into our loving, intimate relationships as well.

That's very well said. One other thing I'd like to bring up before we close, and that is when we've been to a place where there hasn't been consent, relationship repair. And addressing that specifically is really important in couple healing. So if it has occurred, it is important to address it in an environment where you both feel you can talk about it. You may need therapy to do that, but it's important that we not ignore it. And so if you as a couple, you can talk about it and you can express this in an open and loving way, go for it. But you may need professional help. But don't ignore the elephant in the room. If it has been an issue of resentment and there has been conflict and fighting continuously about it, please address it and do it in a way where you both feel heard and validated. And in particular, if you have done something that has not been consentful, own it, take responsibility, and make sure that you do everything you can to avoid doing that.

I love what you said, Dr. Skinner. I would just add to that. And I'm going to guess that most couples, most of our listeners probably haven't done this. But if you're listening, or as you're listening, I'm going to invite you to think about and plan out maybe an invitation to your spouse or partner to say, I'd like to have a conversation about our sex life, about the role of consent in our relationship, and maybe look at where it's been, what's been happening up until now, but also to look at what do we want it to look like. Oftentimes we come into relationships and we don't talk about it. We just have dynamics and they just go, but we don't make them overt. And so beginning to have just a real conversation saying, like, let's talk about what's working for you, what's not working for you, what's working for me, what's. What's not, what are. You know, are there times where you felt pressured or are there time. Are there things that you like or that you don't like? These are mature conversations once again. But sitting down and saying, like, are there parameters that we want to put around our relationship sexually? It can be so incredibly healthy. I had a client recently who said, my husband always wants to do this one thing. She said, I. I've never liked it. Our whole relationship. I've never liked it. Not wanted to. To do that, but I have. So we had that conversation. What if you sit down and have this conversation and say, here's. Here's what works for me, and here's what maybe I don't like so much? Boy, it's going to make a much more loving experience when both people are on board in a space of something that they feel comfortable and safe with.

And again, you goes back to our concept of communication, Marianne. Couples need to learn how to have those kind of conversations. And I don't care if it's about sex. It could be about other. Other elements of the relationship. Sex just seems to be one of the bigger ones. But that. That's a kind of a conversation where we really have to get to the point where we can actually hear what our spouse is saying and not take it as rejection or, I'm the victim of you not wanting to be with me. You're not wanting to meet my needs. It's understanding we're going to have these kind of differences in our marriages, and it's. That's. That's going to happen. It's how we deal with those differences and how we respect each other that shows the quality of the relationship we're going to have.

I love what our friend Brett Williams says about that, where he says, you know, if we can be on the same team and make this the problem, then we can figure it out, then we can troubleshoot it, because you're not the problem and I'm not the problem. But there's. There's something that we want to understand and figure out what works best for us in a healthy way.

Absolutely. All right, final thoughts today, Marianne, before.

We close up today, final thoughts are, you know, I want. I want to just put out a shout out really quickly. There is a video online. You can find it on YouTube. It's called T and Consent. T, E, A. It's, it's. You can Google it that way and put British. The guy has a British accent. It's, it's a really great little primer on what consent is, what it isn't. It can be super helpful for our listeners if you've got teens, if you've got kids, if you're trying to figure out how to have a conversation about consent or even in your relationship sitting down and saying, oh, wow, you know, here's a quick little visual explanation that, that gives you that visual of what Dr. Skinner and I have been talking about today. But we all want to have healthy, satisfying, enriching relationships. We all need love and connection, and we, we do need to figure out how to do it better. As our world increasingly teaches violence and force and coercion through pornography and through media related to sexuality, it's so important for us to realize what is and what isn't. And so I invite our listeners to really look and say, wow, where do I stand with this? And are there any areas where I do need to take some responsibility? Or what conversations do I need to have? And is there some self compassion or some self forgiveness that I need to also address and bring into my own life? But I'm grateful to our listeners for being here with us today and for this really important conversation with you today. Dr. Skinner, thank you so much.

Yeah, like you said, it is a heavy topic, Marianne, but we need to, we need to be able to lean into these difficult issues as a society, as a culture, in individual relationships, because if we can do it right, we can do less harm. We can create a safer environment for our relationship to grow and thrive. But we've got to learn how to do this. And that, again, is a maturing process in many relationships. So please take notes. If you've learned something, please feel free to share a question. If you got any questions, please share with us. Questions. Human intimacy.com and Marianne, thank you so much. Great topic today and thank you to our listeners. And we invite you to share it with others if you find it beneficial.

Thank you all. Thanks, Dr. Skinner.