Create Boundaries Based on Your Values: How You can Improve Self and Strengthen Your Relationships (Episode #11)

On behalf of me and Marianne Michaelis, I'd like to thank you for being a listener of our Human Intimacy Podcast this year. It's always a privilege to spend time with you and I want to express my deep gratitude. If you are ready to take your healing and recovery to the next level, you're ready to deepen your healing and strengthen your connection and gain real tools for meaningful change. I invite you to join us and other Experts at the 2nd Annual Human Intimacy Conference where myself, Marianne and many other leading experts will come together for powerful teaching, live question and answer sessions and provide insightful pre conference conversations to help you get the most out of your conference experience. And right now, you can save 50% when you register before December 31st. Please don't miss this opportunity. Visit human intimacy.com and reserve your spot today. Something about you that I can't help.

But smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh.

Welcome to the Human intimacy podcast. I'm Dr. Kevin Skinner with my special guest, Marianne Michaelis. A little bit about Marianne. She is a licensed therapist who is practicing in the state of Washington, many states. Do you practice in Marianne?

Right now I practice in four Washington, Hawaii, Idaho and Oregon.

And she is a certified sex addiction therapist, a certified partner trauma therapist. She does art, EMDR, and emotionally focused therapy. Marianne, glad to have you with us today.

Thanks. I'm so glad to be here.

All right, you've been on with me before. We were talking about communication and your course on communication@human intimacy.com and if you haven't had a chance, she's got a free course. I would strongly recommend that you go if you want to improve your communication skills. That course is fantastic. Today our topic is really important because it is a huge barrier to intimacy and relationships and it can also be an enhancer to intimacy and relationships. Marianne, let's start this topic by or this conversation by talking about boundaries in relationships. So my, my initial question to you is what are your thoughts on boundaries and how they influence relationships?

Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here to join you. And this is such an important topic. One of the things that so many of my clients and even people I know will say is, I, I don't know how to do boundaries. I just have no boundaries. I, I don't know how to make them, I don't know how to create them. I really need them, but I just feel stuck. And so boundaries are the parts of the relationship that are about who and where we are in our relationships. And so we get stuck sometimes with boundary violations, which is I work oftentimes with betrayal, trauma, and addiction. And addiction is a. Is a boundary violation. It's an issue of not having boundaries. And betrayal trauma is having boundaries broken. And in all of our relationships, we need boundaries, even within ourselves. And so this is a really pertinent topic, and it can be really confusing because there's a lot of information on it.

Yeah. So let's talk about it. If you were actually had to define boundaries, if someone came to you and said, okay, Marianne, what do you even mean by boundaries? How would you define it?

Oh, so one of the simplest ways I would define boundaries is a boundary is a tool that I use, like a rule that I use about how I interface with the world. So an example of that might be a fence around my yard. A fence around my yard, that's a boundary that creates the limit of between where my yard is, what I need to take care of, and where my neighbor's yard is what they need to take care of. So the boundary can be like a fence. However, we also want to use a gate. I can decide what I let in and what I let out of that fence. And so the boundary is the gate. So that's a general, like, maybe foundational way to look at a boundary. I also look at a boundary when I work with my clients more as a tool that I use to create safety for myself. Let me share an example. Where I live, I have a green space behind my house, and so I have a fence, because we have coyotes that live in that green space sometimes. And so the fence behind my house keeps the coyotes out of my yard. And I feel pretty good and safe about that. So my. My back fence keeps the coyotes out. Now I also have a gate up in the front. I have two gates where you can access the backyard. And so people who I choose to let in can come in through those gates, but that's what I'm choosing to let in. So I have the boundary that keeps unsafe things out, and then I have gates that let good things in that I want to have in. I do have a guy who comes and mows my lawn, and I have a sign on my gate that says, hey, I have a dog here, and I need you to let me know when you come, because if not, he opens the gate, and then my dog runs out. We have already arranged days and times when he should show up or he's planning to show up. And so I make sure my dog's inside my house when he shows it up. At other times when My dog is outside in the back. Then the dog gets out and goes and runs down the street. And then I have to really evaluate my relationship with this person. He is coming in my gate, but it's creating problems for me. And so I have to look and say, hmm, can I have this relationship with this person, or does it need to change? And that's where the boundary is. So we've got the boundary of the back fence, We've got the boundary of the gate of who I let in. And then I've got the boundary of how I'm interacting with this relationship with this person about what's working for me in my life. Do I want to go chase my dog all the time? That doesn't really work for me.

Yeah. So what I'm hearing there is. There's a lot of dynamics to our boundaries. Right. I. I've got a fence, I have a gate, and in every interaction with people outside, I have a conversation. Right. These people are welcome. Coyotes, not so much. Right. So they're. They're to protect us and in our own individual lives. If we're looking at application, you know, how does a boundary help an individual in their personal life? Because you mentioned earlier this idea of I have to have individual boundaries. What does that even look like? What does that mean for us as a culture? What does the individual boundary do for us?

So the boundaries are as. As we utilize boundaries, they are really about how we interface with people and also how we interface and interact with ourselves. So on these two different layers, how do I speak to other people? How do I allow other people to speak to me? What. What will I allow? What will I not allow in both ways, internally and externally? So if I allow somebody to scream and yell at me or abuse me, I get to choose whether I allow that or not. And the boundary when I work with my clients is about learning about what's actually healthy for me and how do I create a safe, healthy place where I can thrive versus being stuck and abused.

All right, so, Marianne, what about the individual who grew up in a home where they weren't allowed to have boundaries? Throughout our career, we both have heard of stories, stories where they grew up in an environment where boundaries were violated in. In many different ways. I. I'll never forget the story of a client who said when she was a teenager, her. Her dad and mom didn't like something that she did, so they took the door off of her room so she had no privacy when she was changing. She. Because they were afraid of, you know, whatever that she was going to be doing. And. And so they took the door off, humiliated her, embarrass her in front of the rest of her family, her siblings. And I think about that she wasn't allowed privacy boundary. I think about a case like that, when you've grown up in a home where you can't have boundaries, what's a common outcome?

So that is such a great question. And I think it has, once again, a lot of layers to that. One of the things I often see with clients is when we are taught that we don't have boundaries, when we're taught that we're not allowed to say no, when we're taught, you know, stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about. So when we are, our boundaries, our own ability to have boundaries are removed or we don't have them, we can turn a couple of different ways. One, we can turn into caretakers, where we learn, oh, it's my job to make sure everybody else is okay. And we kind of turn almost like into a chameleon, where we just blend in. And that's really a survival safety tool. I don't have any boundaries. I've been taught that I don't have any boundaries. And so my job is to make sure that other people are happy and okay so that I'll be safe and okay with them. With that, we often learn that we can't say no. We learn that we can't say, I disagree. I will not. I choose not to. I'm not comfortable with that. So when we aren't taught that we are able to say no, then we end up in relationships and situations, oftentimes abusive relationships and situations that perpetuate maybe the abuse from our childhood. But we often end up in abusive situations, again because we can't say no. We haven't learned that we have the right to say no.

And that's such an important point, Marianne, because if you. If you've grown up in an environment where it's not okay to say no, and. And now all of a sudden, even as a therapist, I can't tell you how many times I've started role playing boundaries with clients. And many times I hear something in the fact. Can I say that? Is that okay to say that? It's almost like they feel guilty saying no, or, I don't want to do that, or that's not okay, because they were never taught that it's okay to have these kind of boundaries. Those are the cases. So it's so hard, my heart just hurts. As you were Mentioning earlier hurts for those individuals because they've been in an environment where boundaries weren't allowed.

Yeah, I. As you say that I think about a client in a group. We were talking about boundaries and talking about boundaries and marital relationships and it got brought up. We were talking about marital rape. That happens when there's not consent, even in a marriage. And I had a client just burst into tears saying, I can say no. I had no idea I could say no in my marriage. That that wasn't something I wanted to do right then. Just buckets of tears. Oh, just so much for her. And so we often don't. If we aren't taught that we can say no. How do we interface with the world where everything has to be a yes and we lose ourselves, we lose our identity of who we are, we don't have a sense of self, we don't know who we are because our job is to survive by saying yes to everyone else. Yeah. All right.

So I know there's another thing that you have talked about in the past and it's internal boundaries versus external boundaries. Could you give our listeners an idea? What do you mean by internal boundaries, external boundaries and how it actually applies to our lives?

Sure. So with an external boundary, I have external boundaries with my clients. In my intake paperwork, it says, here's when I'll be available for you. In my emails, it says, here's when I'll be available for you. I have clinical hours where clients can reach out and contact me. Now, if a client sends me an email or a text or calls me outside of those hours, like, those are my external boundaries, I've let other people know. Here they are. Here's when I'm not available, My clients can still contact me during that time, but I also have an internal boundary where I have to say, here's what I will allow myself to do. So I also create boundaries not just for how I interact with other people, but I also have to create boundaries for how I interact with myself. So even if a client calls me and it's 9pm on a Friday, Friday night, they can call me at that time. But I also have to have the boundary of no, this is my personal time. I have some boundaries set to protect myself so that I don't burn out, so that I can balance my life. Along with that, I think there's also a boundary of how do I talk to myself. Oftentimes we may hear ourselves, like our inner chatter that's going on. The voice in our head may say things that we would never say to another human being, yet we might allow ourselves to, to say things to ourselves that are really unkind. And so stopping and saying what do I allow myself to do internally versus externally? I've got to look at that sometimes that might look as simple as for me, one of my internal boundaries is that I, I honor my emotions. So when something comes up my internal boundaries, I need to say that if I feel uncomfortable with that, I need to say something about it versus not saying something because I need to have.

A voice and I want to emphasize what you're saying there. I have to have a voice or I need to have a voice. When we don't hold true to whatever that instinctive or that feeling is or that thought is and we aren't true to that, we don't voice it, we don't express it because of our fears or our worries or that somebody's going to be angry at us, then what ultimately happens is we internalize it. I feel like there's something wrong with me. Right. We don't even, we lose self trust because we didn't take action when we felt like we should. We didn't say what we thought we should say.

Yeah, it's like we're gaslighting ourselves or betraying ourselves. We are attacking ourselves oftentimes more than anybody else. And I think one of the things you're, what I'm hearing with what you're saying is we also create these core self beliefs. We have an experience, we interpret it oftentimes negatively about ourselves. Say oh yeah, I, I am dumb. Oh yeah, I did that right? Or I'm, I wasn't good enough. And then something happens later on we say, oh there it is again. And it just builds and it, we just build this belief over and over and over again. And oftentimes these core self beliefs, they're not true, but they do come from a self betrayal of what we, how we speak to ourselves or what we believe about ourselves.

Yeah, and that makes a lot of sense to me. I, many times I've talked with clients and when they, they've said something to this effect, why didn't I say what I was feeling? Why didn't I share that thought? Why did I hold back? And then they, you know, they go stew on it for a few hours or a few days and they feel that, that sense of why don't I have this voice, why can't I, why can't I say what I'm really feeling? And when that happens, we lose this inner confidence, this, this belief that we can protect ourselves or even express ourselves because we haven't done it.

Yeah. And oftentimes it hasn't been modeled. Oftentimes we don't know how. We may have come from an environment where we've never seen anybody do that. Like, it's just never even entered our mind that somebody could push back on that. And along those same lines, I think we look at betrayal trauma. You and I work in betrayal trauma, oftentimes in relation to a marital relationship or a sexual intimate relationship. But there's also betrayal trauma that occurs just in the dynamics of a relationship and especially in an abusive relationship with a child. We have the betrayal blindness, which I believe was. Is a term that comes from Jennifer Fraide's work. And it's really when there's a power differential, especially as a child with an adult saying, hey, this is how things are, or if there's abuse, we learn, there must be something wrong with me, because this person who's smarter than me or bigger than me or has more power than me may be doing something that doesn't feel okay to me, but it's not my place. I don't have the power to say no to that. Therefore there must be something wrong with me. And so if we believe that there's something wrong with us, then it still gives us a sense of power. I can fix something, I can change something, I can do something. It still gives us a sense of control. So we're either blind to what's happening, we can't see it, we can't acknowledge it, or we say, oh, well, there is something happening, but it must be something, something wrong with me that lets us try to manage your control, which is oftentimes when we say, oh, I can just keep that person happy and then I won't get hurt.

Right.

Does that make sense?

Yeah. Yeah. And so now in some ways, I'm managing this relationship but not being true to self.

Exactly. And that's that internal betrayal that we're talking about.

Yeah. I want to bring another topic because I've seen this so much. When individuals use boundaries in ways that really aren't boundaries, it's more of control. It's more to self protect, but it's trying to force another person. Let's talk a little bit about that because I know you've had some thoughts on that.

Yeah, absolutely. So sometimes we get confused about what boundaries are and what they're not. So once again, it comes back to the things that I do to keep myself safe. That's how I define that. And Oftentimes boundaries are misunderstood as punishments. Well, if you do that, then I'm doing this. If you can't do that because of this, and they're just put down as punishments. And that's not a healthy boundary. Because boundaries are about keeping me safe, it's not about punishing you. There are natural consequences to everything. But my job is to figure out how to honor myself, honor my needs, and to keep and create safety for myself. It's not a punishment. It might be uncomfortable, it might be a natural consequence, but I can't use a boundary as a consequence or a punishment.

Yeah, and I think that's a misunderstood concept. In a lot of the work that we do where people make a list, you're going to do this and this and this and this and this. To regain my trust. That is what I refer to as a one directional boundary. In other words, it's coming from me. You may not be agreeing with it, but I think that by me creating this boundary that somehow that you're going to live up to it or you're going to do this. But if you don't agree with it, that's a one directional boundary. And that's one of the biggest mistakes that I have seen in the work that we've done with sexual betrayal is where people try one directional boundaries, thinking that somehow that's going to create change. It really needs to be bi directional or an agreement, an accord where we both are on the same page. And I say, I can do that, I agree to that, I'm willing to do that. But if it's one directional, you're going to be let down. And that's where I see so many betrayed partners feeling like, why isn't this working?

So let's take that a little bit further. So then what happens in Dr. Skinner when it's two people coming together and the person saying, here's what I need and the other one says I can't do that, then what?

That's a great question. Because now I can't do that. At least we have an open conversation because I now know I want this. You're saying no. Now we're either a at an impasse or we have to make other adjustments and negotiate to come up with an agreement. Now again, I can't force another person. There's. There may be consequences, you may choose not to do that, but if I've got a healthy the boundary, then in essence I'm going to say, well, if you choose not to, this is how I'm going to respond. And now we're both having clarity of how we're going to respond based upon an action occurring. Let's be a little bit more specific here for a second one that we often deal with a person acting out sexually outside of a committed relationship, whether that's with pornography or some other way. And if one partner says, I. I don't want that to be a part of our lives. And this person says, I can't guarantee that I'm going to be consistently sober and clean and stay away from it. And this person over here, person A says, okay, well, if you're telling me that, then I can't predict how I'm going to specifically respond. I may not want a closer relationship. I may ask you to leave the bedroom or I may leave the bedroom. But I can tell you from emotional perspective, I won't feel safe. That open conversation. We're not guessing anymore. We're not. It's not a hidden outcome. It's specific. It's clear. And I'm telling you clearly, I may not be able to be emotionally close for a period of time.

Yeah.

Because I don't feel safe.

Yeah. What's tricky, and I. And I love that approach, what can be really tricky here is we're talking also about attachment and trust and betrayal. And so getting to a place where we can have that conversation or we can feel safe enough to be vulnerable in having that conversation after being betrayed, that's also one of maybe the boundaries or barriers that gets in the way of some of that repair that you're talking about. That can. That can come through that.

Yeah. Because that's a mature conversation. Right. That role play I just go through is a very mature conversation. Two people who understand themselves well enough, not blaming, not accusing, not belittling, not putting down, not ridiculing, but having an authentic, real conversation about outcomes based upon my personal values. And that's one of the core things that I emphasize when I talk about boundaries, is you have to understand your values, and boundaries should actually be derived from your core values.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Can I share with you? Let me share with you a couple. Couple of ways that I help my clients with that that I found to be really helpful.

Yeah.

In all the years working with the trade partners, I've. I've usually started with a Bill of Rights, but I've recently, in probably the past six months, realized there's another backup tool or maybe, maybe even further back where I start with my clients. And that's the I'm not okay with. And so, because when I say, hey, let's create a bill of rights. My clients just kind of look at me with glassy eyes like, I know what that means. You want to make boundaries. I don't know what that is. And now you want a bill of rights. So this. We're just getting in the weeds. And so when we start with just a simple, I'm not okay with. And I say to my clients, what are you not okay with in a relationship? What are you not okay with? And I'll say, I'm not okay with being lied to. Oh, okay. And so we make a list of things they're not okay with that helps to define those values that you're talking about. Then I do work with my clients creating a bill of rights. I have the right to be in a relationship where my partner's honest with me. I have a right to be in a relationship where my partner's faithful to me.

Yeah.

And those are the places. Then I can start to create the boundaries to create my safety, because now I know what I'm not okay with, what I do need. And then the boundary comes as a way to protect that value or that right that I have.

You know, it reminds me, Marianne, of a concept that many years ago, I was talking with a colleague of mine, and he. He said, you know, most times when you've grown up in a family where you don't know how to create boundaries and you start implementing them, you almost feel guilty or like you're doing something wrong. And this really leads into this conversation of, why are boundaries so hard? You want to expand on that a little bit?

Absolutely. So boundaries are so hard. Like we said previously, and just like you just said, if it hasn't been modeled, we haven't seen it. And oftentimes we may be punished for trying to have boundaries when we're growing up. What. What do you mean? I'm. I'm in charge of this. And so there's those power differentials or that. Betrayal, blindness. But we also have to look at the attachment I had. I had a client a while ago say to me, I can have great boundaries with everybody, that I don't really have a relationship with people that I negotiate with in my business or whatever, deliver, you know, whatever I can say, nope, that won't work for me. But, boy, when it comes to my interpersonal relationships, I. I can't have the conversations. I can't say no. And I think it's because these are the relationships that we value. And if I say no, that's not okay with Me, that might mean that that relationship may change, which it probably needs to because I'm looking at a boundary with it. But I'm afraid to make that boundary because what if I lose that relationship? And we need connection, we need that belonging. So if I say I can't do that, then that might mean that my relationship has to end. Or it might be as soon as I make a boundary and I put it out there, it's. I. I lose control of the outcome. And so not having control of an outcome, especially related to an intimate relationship.

Terrifying, because it will create change. Right. And I. And in many ways, we are so comfortable with the way things have. I don't know. Comfortable is the right word, but we're accustomed to the way that things have gone. And. And I don't want to. I don't want to rock the boat too much because that scares me. What if they leave? Or what if this happens? Or what if that happens? And so we don't have that internalized voice, and so we suffer so long because we don't know what to do or say in a way that will have the desired outcome we want.

And what I often see happen is, especially with somebody who hasn't learned to have that, they can say no, or they haven't learned how to use boundaries in a healthy way. It just builds and builds and builds and builds. And then they hit resentment. The resentment builds and they hit a point that's a breaking point, and they just cannot do it anymore. And it has to be done. It almost. It's like an all or nothing.

Here's a dilemma that I've seen over and over where people. It's like the buildup happens and then it grows and it grows and it grows and finally the dam breaks and it just. Out comes everything and they're confused. Partner says, where did this come from?

I've never seen this before.

Yeah, you. You're right. You've never seen this before. Because I've been storing it up for 10 years.

Yeah.

And that is one of the most common things that I see with people who pent it up, who don't let it out. And it builds and it builds an intensity. And when it does come, I've actually seen relationships end. Surprising to the person who didn't know that their partner was that disgruntled or that upset or that worried because they were so misattuned to their partner. Whereas if we could have communicated these boundaries earlier and communicated effectively, then. Then I'm openly talking about these things that aren't comfortable for me. But we're able to adapt and we're able to understand each other. That's a very big difference.

Yeah. And I think that kind of going back to that conversation with our values and like our internal boundaries of really looking at, if I can have my. One of my clients write down, here's what I'm not okay with, and here's what I need or my. My bill of rights. Boy, it is so powerful when they can sit down with their partner and say, sharing with you what I've been working on. And oftentimes I'll invite them to write them with a Sharpie or a dry erase on their kitchen window or on their bathroom mirror. Because oftentimes we don't really exactly know when boundaries are even been crossed until we have a big emotional reaction. Something feels like it's an attack. And I look at that with my clients, say, oh, that's your body, that's your system. Letting you know that one of your rights or your values has been violated. So let's stop and figure out what happened there for you and what you need to start making some boundaries around with that for your safety. Because something clearly happened there. But if I'm talking on the phone and somebody says something to me and then I look up and there it is on my kitchen window, I have the right to say no. Like, oh, yeah, I have the right to say no. I don't have to get stuck in this conversation. I. Oh, wait, no, yeah, nope, I'm not. I'm not going to do that. And so oftentimes when we are in situations, we often are emotionally flooded and we're not thinking clearly and logically. I've had clients say, I know I have these rights. I know that I figured this all out. And I can say, I can use boundaries, but I forgot what they all are. And so having places to share them with our partner, share them with other people, having accountability with them, and then also having them in places where we can remind, review, and adjust and adapt and add more.

And when that, when we do it that way, it's mental rehearsal. You've practiced, you've thought through how you're going to say something. Many times when I have clients who really struggle with boundaries, we will rehearse and practice to the point where they're. They're more comfortable. Because again, if you haven't done it, you need mental rehearsal. You need to think through how you're going to say something. And when we do that properly, we feel more prepared, which gets me to a topic that you have here that I'd like to address. And it's 32 ways to respect or say no respectfully. Tell us a little bit about that, Marianne.

So for my, my communication course that has, I think, five chapters that are addressing boundaries, some of the topics that we're talking about here, one of the tools I was creating was a just a. Here's 32 ways to say no respectfully. And what's interesting about it is, is I think we could all sit down and say, how. What are the ways to say no respectfully? Some will fit for you, some won't fit for you. Silly enough as it is. Right after I had put this document together, my daughter called me and said, mom, you'll be so proud of me. I just used a boundary. And I was like, oh great, what did you say? And I'm like ready for it to be one of these great things on my list. And she was just like, I just said no, I'm not comfortable with that. And I was like, oh, that wasn't even on my list. How did that not make the list but for her? And I've, and I've also shared this list with some of my clients. And we'll look through and say what feels comfortable for you, what are the words that you would use? And so oftentimes we don't have the words or we haven't learned what the words are that we can actually use just to say no. I tell my clients five words. I'm not okay with that. Those five words. And sometimes they just kind of look at me and go, what? Yeah, you can say, no, I'm not okay with that. No, that doesn't work for me. And giving somebody that permission or that tool can be really life changing because they may not realize that they can say that.

And when we have learned how to say no, something happens inside of us. It's an inner confidence, it's a self belief, it's an idea that I'm okay, I can actually stand up for myself. And almost our confidence grows not in a way that we're controlling people, but we feel better about ourselves and our own safety in our own mind. And some people really are uncomfortable with somebody who's starting to establish these boundaries because it's so, so new.

Yeah.

And in relationship dynamics, like what, what's changing? Well, what's changing is the dynamics where it's unbalanced, where there has been gross neglect of the relationship or taking advantage of a person or harming a person through betrayal in some way. And now a person is taking a stand. I. I'll never forget this story. This is one of those stories. A few years ago, my colleague and I were preparing to do a course called behind the Dating Mask. And so we interviewed 12 divorced people and asked about from the very first date through their divorce, just the dynamics. We look. We're looking for red flags. We were looking for the interaction patterns. And this one case was really hard to hear. But as the story was told, this person said, my husband was abusive. And after one really difficult episode where he had physically hit me, he was standing in the doorway, and I was on the bed. And I don't know what came over me, but I looked at him and I said, I don't believe that's who you are. And he started weeping. He just started weeping. So ashamed of his behavior. So ashamed of hitting her. And she said, I know you're better than that. It was the most interesting way to create a boundary I've ever heard. He never hit her again. They ended up divorced, but it was the last time that he physically hit her.

Sounds like she identified his core values as a human being.

Yeah. And. And it was interesting because it was this. It was almost through the side door. It's like, that wasn't. Don't hit me again. It was more of, I don't think that's who you are. Almost helping him identify a boundary.

Yeah, that's beautiful.

And I think about that story often. I mean, it's hard hearing somebody who experienced that talk about that pain and the emotion of it. But, oh, my goodness, it was. It was so powerful because it was something that I didn't anticipate. And that's one of the cool things about when we start to understand boundaries. She realized, I don't have to tolerate this, but she did it in such a way that it's like it shocked the system.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna have to think about that one for a minute. That's beautiful. Such a beautiful example. And I think that you also bring up the point that every person's boundaries are different for themselves. They are deeply personal about how we interface and interact with ourselves and with others within the world, which is a.

Big concern I actually have with the population that we've worked with throughout the years. You know, you can go on the Internet and you can find a list of boundaries that you should have your own, you know, another person's Bill of Rights, and you can go find a whole bunch of those things. They have to be your boundaries. You have to Know why they're your boundaries? Because to model or mimic somebody else when it's not them living in your relationship, you may look at it as a kind of a guide, but you have to find your boundaries based on your relationship.

Absolutely. I. I think that. I think about one of my clients who, as we had been working on her boundaries, One of the boundaries that I often encourage my clients to use if things get heated, if abusive or criticizing language starts to happen, for my clients to be able to say, I'm not leaving you, but I'm leaving this conversation, and I'll come back in 20 minutes. Because at that point, like having that boundary to realize, one, I'm not. I'm not going to be talked to like that. That's not okay for me to be spoken to in a way that's demeaning or unkind or unrespectful people. But two, we're not in a place when we're heated and we're in that fight or flight place to actually have anything constructive. But this client had to actually write down what she needed to say and put it in a note card in her back pocket because she defined what she needed. She knew what she needed, but she would get into this place and freeze.

Yeah.

As we often do. And so recognizing that, as you said earlier, we have to rehearse, we have to figure out what's authentic for us. And there are great ideas online. When I work with my clients, one of my favorite boundary work and Bill of rights is one of my favorite parts of the work that I do. When my clients say, this is what I'm not okay with and here's what I need, I'll actually have them close their eyes and say, say it out loud. And they'll just listen inside to see if it resonates. Sometimes they'll go, no, that doesn't feel quite right. And we'll spend some time getting the wording for what feels right for them. And when it does, it's just this rock solid foundation of this is how I navigate through the world now, because this is authentic to me. It's so powerful because I don't have to question what I will or won't do because it's resounding from deeply inside with me.

Because it's them. It's authentically them.

It is. It's so beautiful.

It's a great example. The, the thing I would add to that, many times when I work with couples, and this is, you know, we can do individually, but when I work with couples, I will Actually help them create their boundaries. And it's a fascinating thing because they haven't done it well and they know they haven't done it well. And almost they need some guideposts. I'll give you a couple of very pragmatic ones if you're listening and would like some guidelines. One of my favorites is we don't fight after a certain time of the evening. So anything after 11, it's off of thoughts, off limits. Now, the reason why is because our energy at that time of the day is so low that your mental resources. What? Roy Baumeister, in his book Willpower, he said that your resources are depleted. He calls it ego depletion or energy depletion. When your energy is depleted, trying to solve problems is nearly impossible. So I basically say, look, I'm not going to be a really good therapist if you choose to argue and fight after 11 o' clock at night because I know your energy is going to be depleted. You're going to say and do things that could damage your marriage for the rest of your lives together. So I, I give guidelines and then I hear people say, yeah, but we have to talk through it. And I'm like, yeah, and you're trying to solve a problem when you're flooded and your body doesn't have the energy to do so. So I'm telling you right now, and I'm helping them create a boundary. I'm saying, look, if you do that, you're going to be at greater risk.

That's beautiful because your, your glucose levels are also really low at that time as well. Yeah, you're just not in a great place to make good decisions at that point.

So then I add to this, this is the other guidelines I give. And I say, okay, so I don't know how to do it well, right now I'm exhausted, I'm tired, so it's. I'm not going to do this. Well, that's an acknowledgment that I not going to do it. Well, the second part of it is, but I'm committed to coming back to resolve this. That's the missing point of most adult timeouts.

Absolutely right.

We don't set the time. Can we talk about it tomorrow morning after we're, we've had some sleep or I've had some time to think through this. Can we talk about it tomorrow afternoon? Can we talk about it later on this evening, knowing that we're gonna have a deadline?

And what's beautiful about that, if I just want to interject what I As I hear that, what's beautiful is it's reparative. It's saying, this is still important to me. I'm not brushing you off. But it's reparative because it's. It is acknowledging and it's just giving space, and it can help the partner's nervous system to begin to settle. Now, if there's a pattern of, yeah, let's talk about it tomorrow, and then we never talk about it tomorrow, that can be even more triggering. But we're just regulating. But, yeah, I can see how that can just be so regulating for somebody to say, okay, I can see that they are recognizing that they're not in a good space. And I can appreciate that. Yeah.

And if my. If my spouse has a fear of abandonment or we've never resolved things, or we haven't worked through things in the past, then that fear is what. We aren't going to resolve it. We're never going to talk through this. That's why those other components are so important. I'm committed to figuring this out. I don't know how in this moment, I need to think through this. I. I'm committed to that. I just don't know how right now.

Yeah. I love that. That's beautiful. So one of the tools along the same lines. I don't know if you do this the same way or not, but I invite my clients, my couples to do. To create fair fighting rules. These are the rules that we will use when we argue and have conflict. And there are so many of those. I just have them go to the Internet and say, you can go look at some and then figure out for you what works for you. I don't know if you use that or not, but, yeah, I call it.

Seven rules for fighting. And I have just a template that I utilize. It's just seven rules for fighting. And I. It's just something I created. Like, look, here's a simple. I don't know which one I want to call road map of how to deal with conflict in. In a meaningful way. I walk through the seven rules.

Yeah. Boundaries for us, for our fighting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Again, it's essential. It's so funny. We live in a culture today where we just think that somehow we're going to know how to solve problems and we just haven't learned. We don't know how we end up doing the same thing. And at the end of the day, it's discouraging because we're not changing outcomes.

Yeah. Can I. Can I. Let me just add to that kind of circling back to, you know, because as I hear you say that I think, oh, yeah, that it hits our abandonment needs, it hits our abandonment fears. And that's. We don't know how to do it. We haven't been taught. And then we get really activated when we think about, oh, I got to use a boundary, or they're going to use a boundary, and this is. This is going to change. And I don't know what to do with this, But I wanted to circle back around also to. One of the myths that I think also often comes up when we look at boundaries is we're often taught in to be good people that we have to say yes or that we can't say no. And this might lead back into the conversation we had earlier about how about abuse or growing up and not having a role modeled or being taught. But we're often taught we can't say no if somebody calls up and says, hey, can you do this? Hey, I need this. Will you. Can you help me out with this? We're often taught no. Good people don't say no.

Right.

We love our neighbors. So if, especially in a Christian society, well, if I want to be Christlike or Christian, then I need to say yes and turn the other cheek. And. And so we often get a little bit confused about how to have boundaries while being a, quote, good person.

One of my favorite lines with that is this. I want to say yes as much as possible. This is a scenario where I have to say no, otherwise I will be violating my own self. And I don't want to do that.

That's beautiful.

So I'm sending. I want to say yes, but in this situation, I. I just can't. I can't. And again, it's just understanding ourselves well enough that we can communicate authentically from who we are. And when we do it from that approach, it's effective. It leads to positive outcomes because I'm still sending the message, I want to say yes. I'm going to say yes as much as I can in this situation. It doesn't feel right to me.

That's beautiful. Can I take that just a little bit further? Several years ago, I remember a colleague discussing boundaries with some clients in a group. And we were talking about, like, the people who don't know how to take no for an answer. And what I just saw you modeled was so. Was so beautiful. And sometimes we just don't have modeled or we don't know quite how to say it. And I remember this therapist saying very clearly, you don't Ever have to tell somebody something that you're not comfortable with? And when someone comes and says, hey, I want to know this information. Hey. And they're very badgering. Sometimes we can even use boundaries that sound like, I wonder why it feels like it would be appropriate for you to ask me or also even just to say thank you so much for asking. And then shifting, saying, how are your kids? And recognizing I don't have to just because someone asks me something. I can have the boundaries around what I feel safe sharing with someone and not sharing and it's. And I could say, I don't feel safe sharing that with you. Or I could just say, thank you so much. That means a lot to me that you've asked that. And how are your kids? So recognizing I I don't always have to be direct about it, but I don't ever have to feel like I'm in a situation where I can't say no or I have to give more information than I need to. Does that I hope that makes.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. As we get ready to close up today, Marianne, any, any final thoughts that you have on this conversation of boundaries? Very meaningful conversation to our listeners. I hope that this these have given you some thoughts about the importance of boundaries in your life. Marianne, final thoughts from you?

Maybe just my final thought would just to be to share one of my favorite examples of boundary setting that I learned from one of my clients. We had been talking about creating a bill of rights, and she said, I just have two, but so she said, it's important for me to have a spirit of peace of my home, a spirit of my home. That was what she felt like she needed. That was her value of how she needed to live her life. And from there, she said, my husband, he can choose to look at pornography. That is his right. He can choose that. And I can't change that for him or things that he can look at whatever he wants to. I can't change that. But because she had that value or that bill of rights that I need to have the spirit of peace in my home, she said, my boundary therefore, has to be, you can look at that, but either you or I have to leave the house. And so for her, creating safety was I can't control what you do, but I can control what I do. So if you do this, then this is what I will need to. This is what I'll need to do to create safety. And so once again, it's it. I can see the boundary as an if. Then if you choose this this is what I need to do. For me, I don't control you, but I control me. I control what I do, and then I live with myself. I'm not betraying myself, and I can find the space that I need to thrive, you know?

And my add on for that is this, because I, I, I love that example. My add on is this, I hope you'll choose not to because I want to stay connected with you.

Yes.

However, I will respond that way because it's incredibly important that I value my feelings, my thoughts, my desires. And so that's just the open communication that couples have when they get it right. It's a mature conversation. It doesn't have to be filled with anger. It doesn't have to be filled with animosity. It's just the realities. And that is an authentic relationship that we can actually build on.

Yeah. What we can and can't live with, and then how we get to a place where we can hopefully live together, making sure that both of our needs are being met in healthy ways.

Absolutely. All right, Marianne, thank you so much for your time today. Any final parting words?

Yeah. My parting words would be that you, to each listener listening to this is that you are worth creating boundaries. You have the right to determine what feels right for you and how to live your life in a way that you are authentic and you're not betraying yourself. And as you do so, to find really deep, meaningful relationships which come from having boundaries and saying that doesn't work. And so we need to find some other ways to meet our needs. And I hope that you'll take the time to look at the things that Dr. Skinner and I have talked about today and apply them to your lives and hopefully have healthier, deeper relationships and intimacy.

All right, thank you. Marianne, to our listeners, thank you for your time today. May you be blessed in your desires for finding and creating true intimacy in your life. Thank you so much for being a part of the Human Intuition podcast. Marianne. Thank you so much.