Creative & Intellectual Intimacy: Growing, Playing, and Building Meaning Together (Episode #103)

There's something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh, something surrounds you.

Welcome to the human intimacy podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Michaelis, licensed clinical social worker. Marianne, over the past few weeks, we've been talking about human intimacy in various different ways. And today we're going to continue in that conversation. And I want to clarify something, because people think, well, do we do these in order? And I want to put it in the context of. Human intimacy is a creation. It's not a specific do this step and didn't do this step. It's more from your heart. And so some days you may be more verbal in your conversations. Other days you may share more emotions with each other. Other days you'll have intellectual conversations, which we're going to be talking about today. And usually it's not just one, but we're mixing them together, and the more of them that we have, the better off the relationship. So you could do three or four of them in, really almost simultaneously. You could have ebb and flow with a very deep, intimate conversation that has emotions, thoughts. It's intellectually stimulating. So I guess my point is, is intimacy incorporates these not in a order, but amalgamation.

My husband and I were having a conversation about that just this morning, Dr. Skinner, in that in some relationships, there are certain parts of these intimacies that we're talking about that don't exist. And yes, they flow. We ebb in and out of different ones. And here is a framework to make sense of and also to be able to look at and say, are there areas in our relationship where I need to pay more attention or where we could grow, where we could expand? You and I have a relationship. We're colleagues, we work together. And sometimes we talk about our families or what's going on in our lives. And we have some levels of these intimacies. And we do a lot of creative projects, brainstorm, and there's a lot of intellectual. What about this concept and idea where we kind of plumb through it and kind of make sense of what you've learned and what I've learned? And there are also layers. You and I will never have a physical relationship because that's not. That's not our relationship. And so each individual that's in our lives, we can look at and say, where are the strengths of this relationship? Are there areas that I need boundaries around or areas that maybe I want to develop that would help this relationship foster and grow? So this is a framework to look at to understand your Relationships better.

And when I was developing it over 20 years ago, I was just trying to think about how do we educate people? And it came to me, and I'm just going to give an introduction to what I call cognitive slash intellectual intimacy. It actually came from early in my marriage. My wife and I, we've been married this year will be 32 years. In the first three years of our marriage, we didn't have a TV at that time. There were no cell phones. And so we read books together. And I was calculating how many books we read together in those first few years of marriage. Three years plus a little bit. But it was over 75 books that we read out loud to each other. And that was a foundation for our marriage. It was just truly incredible because what it allowed us to do is have conversations, Marianne, about things that maybe we wouldn't have talked about. Like one of those books was Frankenstein. I'd never read Frankenstein.

Mary Shelley's. Yeah, yeah.

But the characterization and the darkness and the energy around it. But the Count of Monte Cristo. Absolutely loved that book, right? Very intellectually stimulating. The Gift of Asher Love and the Moonstone. And I could go over some of these really fun books that we read together, and we would talk about those and the characterization and the people and what we liked. And I look at that time frame, and that was a creative foundation between us, this collective cognitive, intellectual intimacy that was a great opportunity for us to get to know each other better.

That's fascinating that you share this. That sounds a lot like the early years of my marriage as well. Lots of reading. We specifically chose not to have a tv, and that's a huge part of my relationship with my husband as well. The shared intellectual. We listen to things, we read things, we come back and then we talk about them. And there's a basis of understanding. And for me, one of the most energizing and exciting parts of our relationship is the exchange of ideas. Years ago, we read David Copperfield and we still pull phrases from that book. Part of our everyday language are the inside jokes or inside shared understanding. And that's what we're talking about today. These shared understandings where we've connected together with our spouse or partners.

And when we do have those kinds of conversations, it creates a deeper bond in the relationship that is something that you can't necessarily put your finger on. It just almost happens because you're doing it. I'll give you a couple examples of this. When I've worked with individuals where there has been sexual betrayal in couples. One of the Turning points that I often see is they're developing trust again, is they begin to have conversations in a deeper way about things that they're learning or experiences they're having. So I hear phrases like, I was reading this in the big book, or I was reading this about recovery. I was reading this and I learned this, or I listened to this podcast and I'm learning some things that may help me and help us. And so I begin to hear those conversations now. Let me contrast that for a second. So I want to be careful here, because some people say, well, I listen to this podcast and this is about you. You should read it or you should listen to it. That's not a conversation. That's like, I want you to listen to this because you got to fix yourself. They're very different than, hey, I read this, I listened to this. I was thinking about this today. What are your thoughts?

I think this is an openness. It's an openness to say, here's something that impacted me and I'm sharing it with you because I'm open to hearing your thoughts, and this is a vulnerability. I'm going to share with you the things that haven't even formed all the way. I'm wrestling with this idea. I'm not sure if I agree with it or not, but I need to talk through it. And I'm trying to figure out how it fits for me, for me to let you into that space. I've really got to have that trust that you're going to be safe for me emotionally, that we can talk about this and that you can be there for me and that I can show up with and I can say dumb things or things that don't matter or things that don't make sense, that I don't have to hold up a facade or be perfect or have all the answers.

And I might say, Marianne, that when it's done right, I think cognitive intellectual intimacy may be one of the underestimated trust builders. And the reason why is when I hear a betraying partner or I hear somebody who's hurt their spouse in some way share something that they've learned about themselves. Like, I experienced this in therapy, or I didn't realize how. How many mistakes or how wrong I was or what I was thinking or how I got down that rabbit hole, and I didn't realize how I got there from these early life experiences. And if they start sharing that with their spouse now, they're letting their spouse see into their thought processes. Because so many times betrayed partners have told me over and over. I just don't know what he's thinking or I don't know what she's thinking. I don't know what's going on in their mind. Well, when you can understand that that process is happening, and it's happening often, you're having meaningful conversations and you're starting to see into this person's thought processes deeper than just a random conversation about the weather. I think this, and I question this. I really would like your feedback on.

It with that, Dr. Skinner. You almost can't even separate the emotional intimacy that's happening here. And I live in an area where there's a lot of engineers, and we literally have rocket scientists, our friends and neighbors, and highly intellectual people. And one of the things that is a challenge in our area is that there's this really overdeveloped intellectual area. And I'll have clients say, I don't know. I'm an engineer. My job is to fix it. Just let me know what to fix it and I'll do it. I'll check the box versus oh, I have to go into having emotions about this. I have to be able to be really vulnerable. And so sometimes I think we can over intellectualize as well, where we're skipping out the undergirding of that emotional vulnerability that has to be there as well.

So glad you brought that up. Because if it was interpreted as just an intellectual conversation, the math majors and engineers among us would say, got it down right. But we're talking more about a I've been thinking about, and usually it's going to be something about myself and about the relationship or you or the kids or how to retire. So it is a conversation that is building upon life that we are sharing or creating together. Because if I said, okay, you want me to sit down and listen to somebody talk about rocket science? Marianne, probably by the second sentence, I would be like, over my head. I don't get it. I remember a few years ago, I was visiting somebody in our neighborhood, and he was a math professor and he had written a book on math. And if you know me at all, you know that math is not my strength. And he started talking about his book. And honestly, Mariana is one of those times. I'm like, I. I feel like I'm learning Chinese all over again. My point then is I'm not talking intellectual. I'm talking really stimulating conversations where it's ebb and a flow between two people that's intellectually stimulating. Now, if I got two math professors together or two rocket scientists together, I'm absolutely convinced that they could have a very meaningful conversation that would go way over my head, but they could do.

It, and it would be so engaging for them, and they would love it because they have a shared understanding, they have shared meaning, and they have shared language. And that is what we're talking about. This intellectual connection is about finding shared language, finding shared meaning. And I think one of the ways that I love to talk about this also is looking at hopes and dreams. So for me, part of this intimacy has looked like I've started several businesses. I went to grad school, and having that space to hope and dream and say, hey, I think that I might, you know, want to go to grad school. I think that I might want to become a counselor. Being able to have that conversation and for my spouse to be able to support that and to be able to say, what would that look like? Let's figure that out together. How could we do that financially? What would we do with our kids? How long would you want to work? How would that impact our family? This is an idea, and then we're really sussing out that idea. How do we make sense of that? And being in a space where I could have that, hey, here's an idea I'm having. I'm thinking about how do we make that a reality? That's pretty vulnerable. That can be really scary. But because there was safety in the relationship, I could explore some things that were on my mind.

And I would add to this something we were talking about before. Last year, my wife graduated with her master's degree in social work. And I know your husband went back and got his master's degree.

He's counselor. Yeah, yeah.

Clinical counseling. And the conversations that I can now have with my wife, not necessarily even about cases, which we could, if we had shared cases, but just the conversation. Like if she uses the words differentiation now, or she uses the word enmeshed or she uses the word CBT or EMDR or art, we have a common language. Whereas before, if I had to use any of those things, she's like, not interested. Right. I don't understand.

That's a math problem.

That's a math problem. But now those terms are just commonly understood. And that has allowed us over the last couple years to have some really intellectually stimulating conversations about how can we help with different situations or different circumstances, how can we do better work with a client? And even if it's a generalized. Here's a situation, how would you handle it? I might not know anything about the client, but A situation. That conversation is something that we could not have had before.

I'm looking at that, and I'm recognizing for our listeners and viewers, it's not always feasible to go back to school and become a counselor or get another degree so you can have these conversations with your spouse. But I think we have to come back to how do we find interests or things that we can share together that we can grow on? And I know today we're also talking about creativity that also gets tied in here. And I know that we attribute that to Dr. Hal Stewart, that he brought that idea into this intimacy pyramid that we're talking about. I think about during COVID and I may have shared this before, but we had a space in our backyard that was always dry. The sun hit the windows and the windows reflected. The sun fried our grass always. And we decided, let's fix this. And we started a very big backyard project. And so we pulled out just camp chairs, and we would just sit on these camp chairs and look at this space and go, what are we going to do here? What if we did this? Well, what if we did this? Maybe we could move this over here. And we'd spend sometimes a couple of hours just sitting down. We'd take a pause in what we were doing and trying to figure out, how do we do this? Because we're not landscapers. We didn't know how to build retaining walls and put in patios and things like that. But taking time to sit down and say, here's an idea. Now, how do we figure out how to do this together? And this is also a space where sometimes ideas clash and it needs to be safe to be able to say, I disagree with that. I don't like that. We've got to have that safety there as well.

Yeah. And now you're introducing creative intimacy combined with that intellectual. Because now you're, like, scheming about how to do a backyard. So I think we mix those two together because I think that they overlap in many ways. But the way I would distinguish the creative form of intimacy is we are creating something together. We might be cooking together. We might be planning a party together. We might be preparing for our retirement and coming up with specific goals that are creative. Like, okay, we need this much money for retirement. When we're retired, we're going to travel. These are our goals. That creative juice starts filling the mind of, how do we get to that space and planning a trip together. When you're creating any of those things together, that leads to something that is united in a Common purpose. And when people are united in a common purpose, they feel bonded. And that's the part that I think Hal brought to this, that I think is so valuable, that connectedness that comes through, that creative us together. And as you said, you're doing the backyard, right?

And I think it can be small, too. So I can say to my husband, hey, it's a Saturday. Our day's not super busy. We're going to be working on some things, but I'd like to connect with some other people. I'd like to maybe have some people over for games or go out. I need some connection. And my spouse can say, oh, yeah, I think that'd be great. How can we do that? It can be as simple as, what are we having for dinner? It can be as simple as, I have this need to connect with other people. I want to have some fun. How do we do that? It doesn't have to be retirement in 50 years. It can be just right here, right now. And then, oh, we look at our house and say, what have we got to do to get things ready? What do we need to do if we need to go shopping? Okay, you go shopping, I'll work on this. And then the two of us, as you're talking about, we're working towards this common goal together that we've connected on.

A problem solving would be another way to look at element of this creative intimacy is we're problem solving together. And sometimes, like you said, it could be as simple as we need this to make the cookies that we're making to give to our neighbors, whatever it is. But we're finding ways to let our creative juices flow together. And I have found that when my wife and I are doing that, it kind of grows like, well, what if we did this or what if we did that and what about this? And so in our time, in these 32 years, we have also started many businesses. And her being an accountant and a therapist, she provides really valuable insight and adds a dimension that there's just no way that I could. But she can look at a business and look at it from a financial perspective and ask questions that I just wouldn't think about.

So I have a question for you, Dr. Skinner. Yeah. I'm wondering what has been maybe one of the most enjoyable areas in your relationship with your wife where you have created together?

So I'll just share a little bit of our story. A few years ago, we moved from one home to another, and so we had a little bit of extra equity in a home. And so we were able to get a second home, which is a short term rental. And so we brainstormed as we were looking at the short term rental, and we looked at the design of it, we looked at how we could improve just how it appeared. It was close to Disney World. And so we flew out there on our anniversary and painted and we put up paintings. We did a lot of work together. And that was one of those creative times where we're just going back and forth on how to make a room look good. And she was able to design different rooms with different Star wars figures and Disney film stuff. It was just fun. And so that was one of those times in our marriage where we were working together for months on brainstorming and financially, how are we going to do this? How do we do that? And so we did that together.

I love that that started out with an idea somewhere, and it took a long time, and there were lots of different areas. How do we do this bedroom? What's the paint? What's the furniture? Where should this be? You had so many decisions where you were working together, trying to figure out, how do we do this right?

And again, I go back to something you said earlier. It could be as simple as baking. Some people learn to dance together. Early in our marriage, I couldn't dance for anything. I just have to acknowledge I have two left feet. And my wife said, hey, why don't we learn to country dance? And I'm like, okay. So it was really close to a campus where we're at in Nebraska. And so I learned some country dance moves. For me, that was so out of my element, but I wanted to and that creativity lends us to. Even today, there's certain moves that I still remember 30 years later that we hear a country song. And sometimes just in the kitchen or in another room, we'll just start doing some country dancing. How about you, Marianne? What about you and your husband?

That painting behind you looks a lot like an acrylic pour to me. And back when I was in grad school, I saw something about acrylic pouring, and I started watching some YouTube videos. I thought that that's really cool. And I sent it to my husband, said, what do you think about this? And so we bought some canvas, we bought some paint, we bought the supplies, and we started doing some acrylic pours. And for two or three years, we did it a lot. It was so fun. And we gave them to people as gifts, and we created some really, really cool art with them. And then we ran out of walls in Our house to put them.

So then now we started putting them in the garage. Now they're on the outside of the house.

We have stacks, though. Yeah.

Yeah.

We hit our limit. But it was such a fun creative process where it was like, oh, we could try using a kitchen colander, and it'll give this different look. And what about these colors? And being able to see his creativity and the colors that he chose and how it would turn out, and then inviting other people over for acrylic pouring parties and teaching it to other people, it just was something that really, really grew.

So, Marianne, a few years ago, a friend of mine, he taught me a very valuable lesson. He said, in relationships, there are certain principles that if we look at them as foundational for a healthy relationship, we should be able to identify things that are just a principle of truth. This principle is the principle of growth. When couples grow together, they're doing things together, the relationship grows. And he said something very profound. He said, you should want your spouse, partner to grow, not forcing, encouraging, supporting, finding joy in their joy. And so sometimes that creativity is actually watching you use your creativity. And the thing that I have found is watching my wife go through this master's degree, that creative part of her, she wanted that. And going back and doing that, I don't want to get in the way of that, because that has been so beautiful to watch. So the principle of growth is individual growth and relationship growth. That's the creative intimacy that we're looking for. So intellectually stimulating conversations, because you're growing, and we can have this conversation, and I'm growing, and we can have these conversations. We're being creative together. These two types of intimacy, these are the fun parts of a relationship, of intellectual growth.

I'm so glad you said that, because as we were talking, I've been thinking. I think play is super important. And I don't know if we need another category here for that or if it fits in here. But especially when there's been conflict in a relationship and there's challenges, it can feel like all we do is talk about recovery. All we do is go to meetings. This is so heavy. And so many times I see couples get bogged down, and we say, how do you guys play together? What do you do for fun? And I think that is where the creativity can also come in. When we're playing together through creation, whether it's in our backyard, whether it's learning to dance, whatever it is, but finding time and spaces maybe to grow together in ways that are fun. And we've Also done some dance lessons together. Dr. Skinner and boy being able to laugh together and laugh at ourselves. It. It's something that you share and you connect and bond over.

Yeah.

And we need that.

Yeah. So as we look at these two specific types of intimacy, Marianne, really, the core concept is, are we growing together? Because if we're not stagnant or silent or maybe even worse, that we don't dare to grow together, those things need to be addressed if we're going to create the kind of intimacy that we want in our relationships. So I would suggest, and to our listeners who really want to apply these concepts, can I just encourage you to go to our companionship course@humanintimacy.com it's free, where you can look at these seven types of intimacy. You can have the conversation. As I've seen more and more people going through the intimacy test and taking it. So we encourage you, go take that test. Human intimacy.com you'll find under the companionship course for the Human Intimacy Podcast and really would encourage our listeners to take it to that next level of their learning.

And the test you're talking about is the Relationship Builder Assessment.

It's a relationship intimacy test. Yeah, it's there. Yeah, it's right there with the last two or three podcasts.

Dr. Skinner, as we wrap up, I always like to give my clients a challenge. What's something you want to work on this week? And so my challenge would be to look at yourself and say, what's something that maybe has been in the back of my mind that I've thought about, but maybe I haven't shared with my spouse or partner, something that maybe I've been afraid of or I've been holding back? Maybe look at that and explore. What are the barriers? What's the fear that I have here? And see if that's something that you can share. And I'm going to also encourage you to play. Find some way to play, whether you're going bowling, whether you're doing a puzzle, whether you're cooking something together. Find some way to bring some joy and play and creativity into your relationship.

Really appreciate those invitations. And if I was to give an invitation, it would be to take the time to learn something and share what you've learned with each other. Thank you so much for listening to the Human Intimacy Podcast. Today we again invite you to stop and pause and go to our site, which is the Human Intimacy Conference, the second annual. We're going to put a link in the show notes you've got between now and the End of the month to sign up. 40% off. And it'll be in the show notes again. If you haven't, go look at all the presenters. You're going to find some topics that are just outstanding. How to rebuild trust, how to deal with shame, how to communicate as a couple, how to rebuild intimacy in the relationship. I'm going to be doing what will be the very first time, is the Intimacy Repair method. It is going to be outlining seven pillars to reclaim this relationship that's been struggling. So, really excited for that. And you're going to be presenting as well, Marianne.

I am. I'm going to be talking about grief and loss, especially after betrayal. And I was just going to mention, I also saw, I think it's Dan Oaks who's going to be talking about sexual reintegration. Wow. That'll be a fantastic one. I know I've got clients that can benefit from that. So there's so many great conversations that we'll be having with these courses. So I'm really looking forward to it, really excited about it.

Yeah. And if you can't attend during the 13th and 14th of March, it is recorded, so you will be able to have access to that. And when they sign up now, I'm also giving them access to all of last year, the first annual Human Intimacy Conference. They have access to that as well. So literally, you're getting about 40 hours of information on healing and recovery from leading experts around our field.

And just think about all of the intellectual conversations you can have about, let's sit down and watch this together. And what did you like? What resounded with you? What didn't you like? There's just so much there.

Yeah. And interestingly, you said that as we close up today, I had somebody reach out this week and said, hey, we watched this. We're still watching last year's and having conversations around it. So, yes, we are so grateful that you're with us. We know that your time is valuable. So thank you for being a part of the Human Intimacy podcast, Marianne, as always, I appreciate your time.

Thanks, Dr. Skinner. We'll see you next week.

Something surround you. It's like you're shining. You're siren.