Crucial Moments: How Couples Can Navigate Triggers Without Destroying Connection (Episode #116)

Welcome to the Human Intimacy Podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Michalis, licensed clinical social worker. Marianne, we are in a very interesting stage of helping Our listeners go through this process. Last time we did the role play, maybe a little bit of intrigue, like, okay, can we do that as a couple? And today we want to continue that conversation, especially as it relates to when one partner is triggered or either one of them are triggered, how to help them respond in those— I'm going to call them crucial moments. And last time, as we were doing this role play, there's parts of this conversation like, okay, there's a trigger. How do we respond as a couple? That underlying question is where I think most couples are getting stuck. We're gonna call 'em crucial moments. Trigger hits. What do you do?

My first thought is, even though we're looking at this or we're wanting to look at this as a couple shift, if I am dysregulated, I'm not in a space to really be relational because that means that I'm probably hijacked and I've got My amygdala's firing. I'm not safe and I'm in that survival mode. And so I, I've got to regulate myself before I can get relational. Usually shame, it usually has a big component in this dynamic and shame is completely— we only heal relationally, but we've got to get ourselves to a place where we can see ourselves, where we can have accountability. Where we can have some humility, where we can have hard conversations. And we can't do that if we're triggered. We can't do that if we're in a fight or flight place. And so my first thought is, in order for us to do this relationally, we have to do it individually first.

I can hear many people say we can't do that, right? Because if I'm the betrayed partner and I've been triggered, I'm looking for information, I'm looking for data. And if you're saying, hey, we gotta calm down, I can just see the betrayed partner in that situation saying, are you kidding me? You stay in here. We gotta talk through this. You need to answer my question because I need to understand what actually happened in this scenario.

Great. But let me push back just a teeny bit on that and come back at me if you need to. That's fine. I would say part of my getting to a regulated state, I still need relational help, but it might not be from my— so. That would be where I might have to say, I need a minute and I need to check with my sponsor. I need to check in with somebody else and get some perspective and maybe help bring my, my heart rate back down and have the conversation with my partner. Where do you feel?

And so I hear what you're saying there. My experience as a clinician is that couples will have marathon conversations. They'll spend time trying to work through You know, I don't know, multiple scenarios. Why did this happen? And so what happens in situations like that is it's, I think they have good intent, but what happens if we're not ready for it? What happens if I don't know how to respond to that? So for example, if I'm the betraying partner there and you come in and ask a question and I thought I answered that question yesterday and today it just feels like a different angle, but it's the same question. And now I'm triggered because I thought we had resolved it. So now we've got two people triggered. What we're saying here, and I think this is where you were saying earlier, is I may— it may not be your spouse that can hold you on this one. You might need to reach out to somebody else in your group, a sponsor, somebody to help you work through that rather than your spouse. That's what I'm hearing you say.

Absolutely. Let me give you a personal example. I remember years ago, I was sitting in a Costco parking lot. And I was so triggered and I was just so emotionally dysregulated. I was really angry and really frustrated and really hurt and so many emotions and probably just had a conversation or had a disclosure or something. I remember I turned to a support group and I messaged somebody. I don't remember even who I messaged, but somebody responded to me. And they gave me some words that were really important. They said, who are you fighting? Who's your enemy here? Because in that moment, my husband was my enemy. That, that's how I was seeing him. But I needed somebody on the outside, somebody to help me go like, hold on a second, Marianne, you're not thinking clearly right now. Your husband's not actually your enemy, so you need to figure out what's going on inside of you and figure out who is your enemy? What are you really fighting about and for? And that perspective helped bring me back down to a place where I could start to think really clearly. My husband wasn't in a space, or I wasn't in a space to receive from him. If he had asked me that, like, I was in fight mode. I wouldn't have been able to hear that from him. And so I do think that we need some other support sometimes to help us get to a place where we can see clearly to reengage.

And if I was to poll our listeners, I would guess that many of them don't have what you just described. They don't have that person to talk to. They don't have, you know, a support group, a sponsor. They don't have that friend that they can turn to in that time of crisis. So the situation is, is where are they going to turn? Naturally, they're going to turn to the person that they're in this relationship with. So I'm reaching out to you, triggered, flooded, whatever term we want to use here. And that's where couples are bumping into it in the most ineffective way. One partner's triggered and it doesn't matter which one. When you come in from a triggered place, your body's nervous system is simply saying, I'm overwhelmed by your emotions. That's where I think that what you're describing here and what we're trying to talk about is, I call it personal stabilization. If I can't stabilize my own emotions, then I have to find a way to do so in a productive way. Because if I'm unstable, and meaning I'm angry or yelling, upset, irritated, and I'm coming across to you, the probability, just from a statistical standpoint, MaryAnn, you're probably not gonna be able to hear me very well.

I'm willing to bet some money that you've heard this before, but I hear this a lot from my clients where they'll say, hey, our therapist said to do this, let's try this. Or they'll try to pull out a tool that their therapist has taught them in couples counseling or individual counseling. And the other partner will say, don't you try to therapize me right now. Don't. And so even if they're bringing in the tools, there's this digging in the hills, this resistance, this pushback.

Yeah.

Because that other partner doesn't necessarily feel safe in this moment. So I, you don't feel safe. I'm not gonna be open to anything that you're putting on the table.

And so now today, as we're talking about different triggers and our emotional responses, This is frustrating for many of my clients because they're wanting to talk about things. They're wanting to work through these things. And so in it, what I've been working on with the Intimacy Repair Method here is what I call the Betrayal Defensiveness Skill. And let me just give an example of this. So this is for the person who was acting out, right? So for example, I tell my partner that I didn't mean to hurt them instead of listening to their pain.

So why are you hurt? I didn't mean to hurt you. I'm really sorry. I'm so sorry that you're hurt. I'm so sorry. I didn't, I didn't mean to hurt you. That's different than, yeah.

Right. Rather than listening to their pain, that simple distinction is not simple at all. Because when we talk with betrayed partners, they will say, I don't feel heard. I don't feel understood. So just this simple question. I tell my partner, I didn't mean to hurt you. I'm sorry. Right. Help me understand more of what you're experiencing. Help me understand more of your pain. So when a trigger hits, I can say, as you just said, I didn't mean to hurt you. That's not going to calm the nervous system of the betrayed partner. It's not going to do that.

No, it feels like an excuse.

Yeah.

It doesn't feel like accountability. It just feels like an excuse. I'm sorry. Okay.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to hurt you. What does that mean?

Right. And I think a betrayed partner would say, well, actually you did, because you kept doing that thing that, you know, hurts me every time you do it over and over and over again. And that just doesn't even land.

So, so now there's the trigger, right? So I hear you saying, and this is where couples get caught and they don't know how to do this. Just even this simple thing that we're just talking about here. Because how do I listen to your pain when, say, your pitch, your elevated tone, is triggering me? Like, it reminds me of my dad or my mom or somebody who used that pitch or that tone. And now we're talking about two people who are in such different conversations. I hear you, but the way you're talking reminds me of my mom or my dad.

Can I get a little bit deeper into the weeds here?

Yeah.

And I'd love to hear your perspective on this. Oftentimes there is, there's a power differential that's going on here. The betraying partner has information or has had information because of the secrecy and the lies and the dishonesty. And so they've been in a power place where they've had control of the information and the betrayed partner is in a lesser power state. Not having the full truth or, or all of the information. So there's an imbalance happening oftentimes already there. And in recovery work, it often seems like that power differential has to shift completely to the betrayed partner can have all of the emotions, which I wanna say, I, I am fully in support of honoring your emotion, but also doing that in healthy ways. Oftentimes I, I sense a, a sense of the betraying partner just Their job is just to constantly be in a humble place, always in a lower position, and always in a repentant place. And it seems like there's a shift, but it doesn't seem like it's always the healthiest shift either to always—

I see. I see.

You go from here to here. And it's this total flip. And yes, we want accountability. Yes, we wanna be rebuilding trust. And I think that the betraying partner also has their own emotions as well, that they still need to figure out and honor and work through. And it, this is where it gets hard. So I can be kind of like a doormat. I think that's what I'm trying to say is the betraying partner now needs to be a doormat. And what do you—

that's an interesting take. That takes me, you said getting into the weeds. I think that's a very interesting thing, because when I withhold information, I am, I'm putting myself in a one-up position. After I've hurt you, I can, I can go back, I can go into the shame-based, you're in this one-up position. My, my overall conclusion is that power differential either direction is not going to lead to connection long-term because it is not a power differential. It is a combined coupleship where there's truth and honesty both directions. Let me just give an example of this. This is also a part of the assessment that I'm working on. Which again fits perfectly here. I sometimes feel hesitant to open up emotionally to my partner. Mm-hmm. Right? So just taking that question by itself, if I'm hesitant because I'm in, in a one-down position either way, then I'm not gonna have intimacy. I'm not gonna have this connection in this relationship. So again, I, regardless of which partner is in this position, if I can't come emotionally to you, I can't open up, then the relationship's limited. The connection is limited. So yes, there is a time where if I have betrayed, I need to be in a position where I am open and humble and willing to listen. But there also needs to be a transition where both partners feel heard and understood and both partners feel validated if we're going to heal this relationship.

And I think that takes a lot of what we talked about, that humility of being able to say, can I set aside my hurt for just a minute and to hear my partner?

Hmm.

For, for either partner to say that, can I set aside my defensiveness, my shame, or my hurt, my pain? Can I set that aside for just a minute just to hear my partner, to see? And when I say hear my partner, this is that intimacy that we're talking about. Can I really see them fully as a person through a compassionate lens? As we referenced before, most of the time we're running scripts, we're running patterns that we've been running for a really, really long time. And most of the time we don't wanna hurt our partner, but we make some really bad choices.

There's a part here that I think is really important though. If I back up in this timeframe. After discovery, there is a timeframe where the betrayed partner's emotions are intense. And that period of time I've seen extend for extended periods of time where I can't let it go because it, maybe it's my protector. Maybe it's that part of me that says, you're not gonna get hurt again. You're not gonna hurt me again. You deceived me so much. You're not going to hurt me again. That space is not helpful for the betrayed partner to stay in either, because to carry that consistent protective mode, it's not gonna just influence the relationship. It's probably gonna influence how you interact with other people.

Can I add to that though? We normally don't have all of the information out at one time.

Right.

So for a betrayed partner, I'm gonna keep that protective armor up and that distrust up because, oh, there's another lie. Oh, here's a little more information. Oh, here's a little bit more. And so especially if you've had staggered information coming out, it just reinforces that need for the armor, for that defensiveness. And so I fully agree with you that it's not helpful, but I also wanna validate and acknowledge that when all of the truth and information isn't out there, it makes sense that it is.

Right. And that then goes back to the phasing of a healing process. Until there is a disclosure, a formal disclosure, the truth is out there. When we've done an impact letter by the betrayed partner, we've done emotional restitution about how I lied, how I gaslit you, how I manipulated the situation. From there, the foundation is built upon, if there is more, then you didn't disclose it in the full disclosure, has the intent with the word full disclosure and on purpose that there's nothing left to be hiding. But once we get to that point, that doesn't mean it's over because now we're still, there's still questions that are going to come up. There's still these fears and these worries. That's where couples get stuck and they don't know what to do. And that's where I think we have to really emphasize slowing down this process and looking at the patterns that have, so to speak, crept in or stayed in after the discovery that may have even been there from the very beginning of the relationship, but they were never talked about or never addressed.

And I think this is a place where we can have so much more compassion for both partners who are doing the work. The partner who's disclosed their behaviors and is working on the roots of it now and the partner who has shared their impact letter and shared where they're at, that is a much more vulnerable place for both of them where they basically opened the curtains and said, let me let you into my life and let you see me more fully. And that is definitely this basis of where I think we're talking about for these mutual conversations. So Can I be triggered and can I come to the table now and have a deeper conversation?

And in order for us to do that, Marianne, I think that I, that goes back to where you were talking about is the personal stabilization, right? How am I now presenting this information? Am I working towards moving on? And when I do intensives, Marianne, I often find this is the state where the couples are in. They've tried the disclosure, they've tried the impact letter. But even then, usually it's usually done in their format, not necessarily guided by professional therapists. I find that many people that come to me, some of them have done a full disclosure. In fact, everybody who comes through intensive, that's what I require, that as a foundation point. But what I find is they try to do those before. In fact, I've seen people do, well, we did 3 or 4 disclosures.

Oh.

And now they're years into it because it wasn't done properly. That's hard to watch because if we do this right, we can stabilize the ship early on, at least earlier on. But when we try to do it ourselves or we half-bake things or we, whatever version we tried and that partial truth, that's why it doesn't work. If you give a trickle truth disclosure with partially this and partially that, or you're trying to do that on your own, you're going to extend the healing process. It's just going to take more time. Because when you do it that way, a year later, it's like, well, why didn't you tell me about that? Well, I hadn't even thought about that. I thought about that 6 months ago. Well, why didn't you tell me 6 months ago? Because we'd already talked about it and I didn't want to bring it up because I didn't want to fight. And so that's what I've seen over and over, Marianne. And that's where both partners just get so discouraged. It's like, here we are again. I thought we were through this and now we're 4 years into this or 5 years into this. And we're still just pulling out our hair.

I think there's such a power that comes through becoming honest, honest with yourself, honest with your partner. So much of this work takes courage to be able to see yourself. You know, I had a client recently share something with me that they'd never spoken out loud. They've never said out loud, and I'd been working with them for a while, but watching their reaction when I asked a question and seeing their reaction, I could see by their body language, wow, this is super tender. And to do this work, it takes like this inner reflection and this ability to say, this isn't something I've never ever wanted to admit. And that's part of the work that we're talking about. Doing here in this space. And so if we can get to that place and then can we show that up and can we show that to my partner? That's a, that hopefully can be a really soft and tender place where if our partner can see us through a lens of understanding and a lot of compassion.

So Marianne, the question, how am I showing up in this marriage? If I'm hiding behaviors. I'm not gonna be able to be authentic if I'm hiding behaviors. I'm not going to be there if I'm constantly triggered by my partner's behaviors and I'm just, say, flying off the handle and I'm in that space. Those are not places of connection because autonomically your body isn't gonna do that in a fight or flight response. So personal stabilization is a part of this journey. Learning how to do that, learning how to deal with triggers so I can be emotionally stable in my interaction with you. I role-play this with my clients on a very regular basis, both, both the betrayed and the betrayer. I role-play it and role-play it. So let's take a scenario. How would you want to respond? Even just today I did that and it was a betrayed partner and it was, how do I communicate what I'm actually feeling in a productive way? Because I can speak to you until I'm blue in the face and it can be unproductive, or I can learn how to do it in a productive way and we can have a conversation that's gonna lead us to a better outcome. And so they get into this repetitive cycle and that just wears couples out.

I do think it comes back down to that emotional regulation of self, but being able to recognize if I show up to my partner and I'm really hot, meaning I'm really hijacked and I'm super dysregulated with my emotions, as you're saying, like we can have the same conversation over and over and over again. With the same, my partner then gets dysregulated or gets defensive and here we go again. This is the dance that we go through. I do think it comes back to, I've got to learn how to be honest with myself about my own emotions. I've gotta learn how to be honest with myself to see myself and saying like, that behavior that I'm doing is not okay. I've gotta figure out what to do with that because I'm, I don't feel comfortable. Coming in and accusing my spouse all of the time over and over again, or even just with the way that I'm showing up. I wanna be really careful saying that because I know as a betrayed partner that can feel hard to hear because yes, my emotions are really justifiable, but I am also responsible for how I show up with my emotions and it's really important to not add my own shame to this mix. My shame that I'm not behaving in ways that go against my value system.

And my experience is this: almost inevitably you're going to have those thoughts and those feelings. And truthfully, you may say, but they need to go first. They're the ones who hurt me. They need to understand my pain. They need to be the one who's accountable because they hurt me. That's true. That's absolutely true. They do need to. So if I'm the betraying partner there, and as you said, my partner's hot or angry or upset, my capacity to hold their pain is a skill that's learned. It's not inherited. Either partner here can change the game. Either partner can show up differently and learning how to do that takes practice. It takes compassion for self and for partner. But again, we need to create that foundation. This kind of a conversation is not the probability early on. This is down the road. We've done some work. We've been to group or we've been to therapy. We've done all of these things. We're still struggling. And that's where most couples are getting worn out because it's like, why can't we make progress? They want it to go faster. And yet you, when you don't have the skills to make it go faster, it's so hard and so frustrating. That's the skills. So imagine, let's go through this one more as we close out today. Let's say that you did come in angry and your spouse said to you, oh, Marianne, this is obviously important to you. Could you help me understand more? Help me understand what you're experiencing so I better understand you.

Sorry, I don't know how to speak it that way. I can go a lot of different ways with that. If I'm coming in hot, Yeah. That was a really good response, Dr. Skinner. But if I'm hot, I, that's, you know, that's like, so go there.

Let's role play it, Maryann. Let's role play it.

Yeah. Okay. Can you do that again, Dr. Skinner? I'm sorry. Yeah.

So, so obviously this is important and I want to understand, 'cause I haven't done this very well in the past. So help me understand so I can better assist or support you.

Are you kidding me? So now you want to be the good guy. Now you want to understand and support me. I can't. I just can't. I don't care. One day you betray me. The next day you want to support me. How do I even believe that?

I'm not asking you to believe it right now. I'm just trying to do it in a better way because I haven't done it well.

Yeah, you haven't.

Yeah, I haven't.

Yeah, you got it.

And so I'm here if you'd like to talk about it. I'd like to understand what you're feeling.

Right now I'm feeling like I can't trust you. Right now I'm feeling like, like I can't rely on you to show up this way. And, and stepping out of this for just a minute, I may have more distrust showing up right here because What do I do with you showing up this way when you've been betraying me, when you have a history of betraying me? How do I even dare start to trust this guy that's showing up?

'Cause right now you're prob— right. So right now you're not going to, right? And that's what you're saying. And, and I have to be okay with that. If I, if I'm the betraying one and I have to recognize that is okay. That means it's okay for you not to trust right now. I desire at some point that I will earn that. At some point, my actions will show you that I, I'm, I'm trying to be here. I haven't done this well. I need to own that. And I haven't been available to do that. And in that, I need to acknowledge I've let you down.

And that was so good. I wanna just point out that that state for betrayed partner is so confusing. So I'm hot, I'm hurt, my defenses are up. Because of whatever has happened, there's great distrust. And when you come in in this state of openness that you just came in with, that vulnerability, with that understanding, with that, I want to hold your pain. It's so confusing. Mm-hmm. Who are you? How do I go into this place? You've already hurt me so much. How do I even go there again? Because I don't trust you. And if I trust you, You're going to hurt me again. And so I just want to validate how terrifying that state can really be. Because I don't want to get hurt again.

And so this is where the couples get stuck, right? Because what you just described is the natural response, especially in the beginning, especially if the betrayal is fresh and we are really close to it. No, I'm not going to trust that. That just does not make physiological sense. My body doesn't trust that. If we're still there 3 and 4 or 5 years into it, there's some issue that we have that's underneath it that we haven't seen or addressed yet. That part that says, I still can't trust you, because they're going to get worn out there. Both partners are going to get worn out. I mean, imagine a year, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and we're still doing the same loop. You're never going to trust me, I say.

And so this is where I think we build up scar tissue. When couples get stuck, we say, we don't know how to resolve it, so we're just going to try and move on. And then it gets bumped and activated and resurfaces in the frustration of the relationship again, even though it's this wounding that's deep that we've got layers and layers on.

And that's why in my intensives, I go to the deeper part there to get to that root and literally show couples why we're not addressing it, why it hasn't been addressed. So if you're a year, 2, 3 years into the same cycle, that's where the intensives become more effective because we're finally showing you how and what's guiding it. Because if you don't know what to do there, you're again, it's just, it wears you out. That's when I see couples like, why don't we just get divorced? Neither one of us are happy. We're not moving forward. We are stuck. And that's the part that is hard for me because, well, it's actually, for me, I actually enjoy this part because I understand how to help them get out of it. If you have the right tools, you can get out of it. That's the part that's exciting. So the role play that we just did here, let's say it is 3 or 4 years into it.

And I was saying 3, 4 years into it where we've actually been doing a lot of work and work like the healthier way, but where did you want to go with that?

Well, I just want to say, if I'm 3 or 4 years into it and we're still in the same place, then I really need to stop and say, what is it that's happening inside of me that I'm still in this place? And that's both partners, because if I betrayed there and I'm still feeling like we're still in this pattern, if I come to you and say, Marianne, I'm scared. I've honestly, I've been clean and I can confidently say I've been clean for this amount of time, whatever it is. And I'm confident in that. But what I'm not confident in is, is how we're solving problems. I'm scared because I don't know how else to earn your trust, and I don't know what else I can do. And I'm feeling scared because I'm starting to find myself wanting to pull away, and I don't want that for our marriage.

And when I hear you say that, Kevin, My alarm bells go off. Oh no. Am I not progressing fast enough? Oh no. I'm not quite ready to trust him all the way yet. Oh no. And now he's saying, because you're not healed and better, he's not sure if this is gonna work out. That's my initial response to that.

So thank you for sharing that. And the last thing I want you to do is say you have to rush where you're at. I'm saying I'm discouraged because I don't know how to show up different for you. I don't know how to be there in a more productive way. I want to be, and I'm not going anywhere. I'm just saying I'm getting discouraged because I don't know how to take us to that next level.

And my soft response to that would be, yeah, me too.

So what are you experiencing? Now, now we'll push pause there, right? Because in that transition, what are you experiencing is the curious question that I was referring to earlier.

Right.

And to that you would say, I'm feeling discouraged as well.

I don't know what to do. I don't feel like I can trust you yet. I'm still struggling. Feels like we're still stuck.

So help me understand what you're experiencing. Like, I know there's, you said discouraged. Walk me through some of the things that you're feeling, right? So that's the role play that we would do with the couple. And let's get deeper. That's where literally there's, they're almost there, right? They're both being vulnerable, but they don't understand what's underneath it. And that what's underneath it is actually the secret to getting him out of it.

And I would say there was definitely a vacillation point that I hit where I was like, ooh, I still feel a little prickly here. I could still be a little defensive. Or I like, I think there's also a point where we get to choose, am I willing to step into this space and be vulnerable, or do I need to keep my walls up? And I think that's part of the couple's patterns as well, because it is hard to choose to trust.

And that's the space where we ebb and we flow. And that's a very important thing. As a part of the Intimacy Repair Method, I'm talking about the resiliency of couples. Because that too is a part of it. Being able to say, that's okay, we're still there. And you being comfortable with me saying I'm scared, that because both partners are scared, okay, that is a vulnerability. It doesn't mean we're— we have to end this relationship. It means we're both scared because we recognize that we want more, but we don't know how to get more.

Yeah, I was just gonna say, that's about the honesty, each partner showing up and being able to really be honest about their emotions, like emotional honesty. I feel XYZ, and can I share that with you right here, right now? And can you hear it? And can I be comfortable with you having emotions right here? Or is that dysregulating to me? Do I dip into shame? Do I dip into fear or anxiety?

Yes. All right. There's much more we can say on this. That's why we're doing the 12-week class, the Intimacy Repair Method course. Because we want to take your relationship to the next level. So we would invite you to join us at the Intimacy Repair Method course starting May 7th, 2026, and thereafter it will be continued. So if you're listening to this after then, there will be continued courses. If you want to role play, if you want to take scenarios from your relationship and practice the skills to help take your relationship to the next level, that's what we're doing with the Intimacy Repair Method. So we'd invite you to join us. Marianne, thank you for the great conversation today.

You're welcome, Dr. Skinner. I would just add also, as we wrap up, to our listeners and viewers, if you have something that you want us to talk about, if you have questions, please feel free to email us. Let us know at human— info@humanintimacy.com. We'd love to hear your questions, comments, and we'd love to dive into topics that are important to you.

All right. Thank you very much and have a great week. We'll see you next week.

Thank you.

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