Dating After Divorce with New Co-Host Amy Andrus (Episode #6)

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Something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh. Something's around you.

Welcome to the Human intimacy podcast. I'm Dr. Kevin Skinner. Today I'm excited to introduce you to my friend and colleague Amy Andrus. We've had the opportunity to work together with for more than 10 years. And I've known Amy for more than 30 years. She's going to be a regular co host on the Human Intimacy Podcast. I'm so excited to have you meet her and to have her join me. Welcome Amy.

Oh, thank you.

So much fun to have you join me, tell our audience a little bit about you so they can get to know you.

Oh goodness. Which part would you like to know or.

Well, Amy grew up in Idaho, right? So that's unique.

So something about me. I am the youngest of 10 children. I grew up on just in this little farming community where I attended school K through 12 in a tiny red brick schoolhouse. So you're probably younger, you don't understand the reference to Little House on the Prairie, but that really is how I grew up with 11 people in my class and wide open spaces. And that's what I call home. Just amazing. Loving family, beautiful relationships and wide open spaces. Watching stars and just, it was magical.

And yet you had to deal with the Idaho winters.

But when it's all you know, that's all you know, you know.

Yeah, that's true. That's true. So interesting story for our listeners. I also grew up in Idaho. I didn't have a chance to know Amy back then, but we both grew up probably about 30 minutes from each other and we went to different high schools. But anyway, so fun. We actually met at college while I was getting my PhD and she was getting her master's degree in marriage and family therapy. So we've had that chance to know each other for many, many years. And so to our guests, I'm so excited to have, have you join us. Tell us a little bit about your life, your background as a therapist. We'd love to hear a little bit about what you're learning.

Well, first, I am so honored to do this work. I, I could not, I can't imagine doing any other work. I'll, I'll DO intensives with Dr. Skinner and we genuinely will look at each other at the end of every three day intensive and we'll say, how are we so blessed to do this work? It is such a sacred, beautiful work that I love with my whole heart. I, again, like Dr. Skinner said, I went through the marriage and family therapy program at byu and my intention was I just wanted every family to have the love and the loyalty and the, that that I grew up with. And that was my desire to become a therapist is to. I was just going to change the world and help every family have what my family, how I, what I experienced growing up professionally. I became licensed in the year 2000 and that was a wonderful education. Wasn't BYU just top notch?

Yeah, really. Well, it was one of the top MFT programs in the country, so absolutely.

Yeah. Right. And it was, it was incredible. And became licensed in the year 2000 and maintained my licensure. Then began having a family. Like I said, I grew up with 10. So expectations are kind of, you have children. And that's really, that was the, the primary desire of my heart as well. And I proceeded to have six children who are just the light of my whole world. And every mother knows that. So I proceeded to have six children. Something also unique about maybe my family. My youngest has down syndrome. And I will, I will refer to her because everything I have been most afraid of, including, you know, divorce and all of this and down syndrome, the fear is the most painful part. The reality is beautiful. So six children and my life was rocked by sex addiction throughout my entire 18 year marriage. And back then we didn't really have the resources that we have today. And so I did a lot of things wrong and reacted. You know, now we know so much, but I can tell you it's exciting for me. So then I've been able to work with Dr. Skinner and I pursued my certified sex addiction therapy and I went through that which was amazing for me. And I've had training in EMDR and art and ifs. And anytime, just so you know, anyone works with the Dr. Skinner, he requires absolute best practices. And because of his. His researcher brain and his constant growing, you know, growth mindset, those continually keep adapting. And so, you know, now I am trained in safe and sound protocol. So working with him has been such an honor because he's always pushing to be able to have the best treatment for the clients. So my life's been a journey I never would have imagined in the midst of a marriage where divorce was so. I mean, that was the ugliest, most terrifying word. You know, think about betrayal, affair, pornography, divorce. I never would have dreamed that I would be so excited to be co authoring a course with Dr. Skinner about dating after divorce. So I am so excited to just be on this journey with you.

Yeah, this is going to be a fun one. So to our audience, what Amy's talking about here is we are working on a course. One of the reasons why it's. It's actually dating after divorce. And, and so just a little bit of background here. What we are looking at research. And Amy already alluded to this, but I love the research component of what we do and why we do what we do. But the research shows that about 52% of all women remarry after divorce, and about 64% of all men remarry after divorce. So those more than half men and women are remarrying. And yet we know that the divorce rate for second marriages is about two thirds, and about 66% of second marriages end in divorce. And third marriages are even higher, about 75%. So what would happen, and this is really the question that Amy and I have been talking about, is what would happen if we could actually help people post first divorce develop the skills that the behaviors understand what healthy healing is post divorce so you can reduce the odds of a second marriage not working out. And that's really what we're working on. And that's what we want to talk about in. In today's conversation and subsequent conversations about dating after divorce. Get prepared so you don't end up in the same environment where you were, because we.

We do. Dr. Skinner talks a lot. We. We operate in patterns. And again, I. I kind of hinted on fear. And we can date fearfully, which causes us to go back to the patterns that we know and are familiar. And until we really do this work and are able to reflect and date mindfully and that, I, I'm just excited because we want to help you prepare to succeed. And I personally can tell you that I've been dating for, I don't know, 11 years now. And it's great, and it's fun and it's. It's hopeful. And I will be sharing a lot of clips and stories from my clients that I've been on this journey with, who can also echo these same promises. So what you're most afraid of, the fear is the worst part.

Yeah. So as we talk about dating after divorce, I got two or three questions that I'd like to start off just asking you, Amy. So you talked about, you know, you've been divorced for a little over 11 years.

12.

12 years.

I waited a year to date.

Yeah. Okay, so you've been on this journey. What are some of the key. Your key takeaways? Because I'm going to assume that it wasn't the same then as it is now. Just your awareness, the things that you've observed, what are some of the things that you would think would be helpful for our audience to know about your experience up to this point?

It's fluid. And what I can say I have learned with every relationship that I have, you know, been involved in. I continue to learn so much about myself and really what I want. Because when you come from the marriage I came from, the bar is pretty low, you know, so first boyfriend, you know, sweeps the floor in the kitchen, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is my husband. You know, so the bar. The bar is really, really low. So I just want to. In. In. In the portion that I'm covering, I share a lot of my personal experiences with not settling. And that requires not being rushed by fear or reactively comparing. Because pretty much by the time we get to divorce, the relationship is, in my case, is pretty ugly. And so anything else by comparison seems just where we don't want you to settle, and we want you to know yourself so you really can have what you most desire in a future partner and decrease the likelihood of repeating old patterns. Because that's. That's what I see with my clients and Dr. Skinner. That's what you see. It's. I thought I was. I thought I was in the second divorce. I thought I was picking something so different. And he. He didn't have a pornography addiction, but he had a drug addiction. And it felt different and it looked different, but the patterns were the same.

So again, what you're really describing there is the question that we actually address. Are you ready to date?

Yeah.

Right. And there's a. There's a mental mindset that comes into play here, and it really Is, am I comfortable? Do I like myself enough? Have I dealt with my own fears, my own worries, my own concerns? Because when we just launch into the dating world, because that's what a society says, you know, you need to get back out in the game. You need to get out there. But getting out there prematurely, absolutely. Really? Because you said earlier, you know, how long did it take you to even consider going on a date?

It was. It was a year. And my approach, and I outline several different approaches to take with dating. And again, you doing the work that you trust you, there isn't a right, wrong, good or bad. And I honestly, in writing this course and co authoring this course, I feel so excited that I want to write three more courses to just help you along the way, because there is not a right, wrong, good or bad. I went through the way I approach dating was okay. I was very surrender to God, saying, all right, I'm not going to pursue dating, but I will tell friends and family, if you have someone think of me, and that's vulnerable. It's vulnerable to. That's Even saying that is vulnerable. But my intention was, all right, if you bring someone to me, I promise I'll say yes. And so I told friends and family, and my first date came from that. And it was a wonderful experience. And yet that's not the only way. And I have several examples of women who have, you know, gone to events and who have online dated. And throughout the years, I, you know, from that approach to some online dating, the events I haven't done just because I'm busy and I'm kind of an introvert and big events kind of stress me out. But there's not a wrong or right. But you just have to trust yourself. And in reaching out to my past clients whom I have been just privileged to be on this journey with, you know, one such client said, I. I haven't felt the need to date yet. And it's okay, too. You don't have to. You don't have to feel pressure that there is this. This is the next step. This is the next step. It's trusting yourself to really have a firm knowledge in what that is. And it looks different for everyone.

Yeah. And what I find there, at least in my experience, is because we have this expectation, maybe I should do this. But I think there's an underlying emotional need, and I think that that is a big issue. There's this. I've just come through this difficult, painful divorce. I'm scared. I'm afraid. I'm afraid of repeating what I experienced. And then there's this internal feeling of loneliness that I have observed in so many of my clients. And I think it is that unresolved loneliness. I don't know what to do with it. That gets me back out there, but also can make me minimize some of the red flags.

Oh, right.

In relationships. Because I, I, I, I'm alone. And I don't like that feeling of being alone. And so I see a lot of my clients caught in this world of I'm so dang alone. I just need somebody. I need attention. I need somebody to care.

I know. And I'll tell you, in that, in that, in between with dating, I recognized that, that just longing for, for touch, for connection. And yet I knew I trusted myself. I don't want to go find cheap connection, cheap touch. That's not in alignment with me. And so I started having a weekly massage where I had that, you know, that physical touch, touch, healthy touch. And that's how I navigated that space. And so it's just, it's just really, you know, one of, one of the most brilliant things that Dr. Skinner reinforces again and again and again is tune out all the voices and just listen to your own voice. And fear causes us to rush, and fear causes us to stay, and fear causes. And so it's just tune out all the voices and listen to your voice. I, and for some people, I don't want to be judgmental, because for some people, it's okay, Amy, I'm kind of ready to just go kiss all the boys. And it's like, okay, see me every week. And we're going to talk about this every week, but so it's trusting yourself.

Yeah. And what's interesting about the approach, and I really want to emphasize this, is there's a wide range of responses, but there are some common themes. And this is what I would really want to emphasize in the course Dating After Divorce, that we're creating. The core thing for me personally is this question. Are you ready?

Yeah.

And, and that really means you have to deal with your own negative thoughts, especially post divorce. And this is an interesting statistic. I want to share this, Amy. This is fascinating to me.

You're the statistic. Just, I, I don't do that. He can do that.

Well, okay. So the geek in me comes out because I just want to look at the, the reality. So I, I was recently reading this Forbes report, and they estimate that every year about. For about the past eight years, over 700,000 couples have divorced in the United States. So every year, over 700,000 divorce. But in that same report, they suggested that about 60%, somewhere between 55 to 60% of all divorces are related to sexual infidelity or sexual betrayal. So if you do the math on that, say, six out of 10 of 700,000, you're probably talking around 400,000 divorces are related to sexual betrayal. Now I go back and look at my research, and my research is looking at how sexual betrayal triggers post traumatic stress symptoms, PTSD symptoms. So now I'm thinking, okay, and that research shows that about 7 out of 10 betrayed partners are experiencing PTSD symptoms. So now if I take those PTSD symptoms and now does divorce. This is the question, does divorce take away the PTSD symptoms? And my answer to that is really the research that I'm working on right now, because what my experience is time doesn't take away trauma.

No, you will carry that trauma without. And you. And you learn, you learn so much about yourself, but you will carry that trauma into the next relationship. And that anxiety, which in. In the section that, that I'm covering, I went through so many in the readiness to date. Have you grieved the loss of your marriage? Have you identified your negative beliefs? What are your beliefs about men? What are you know? And identifying your triggers? My first boyfriend post divorce was. He was so patient with me, but I would be with him. And even though it was a safe relationship, every time his phone. He was an attorney and his phone buzzed a lot, but every time we'd be together and his phone would like, my heart would start pounding and I would have a traumatic response. And so then I needed that shock shed light for me. All right, I've got to work through this or else this relationship is going to be unsuccessful because he is not my former husband, but my body is responding as if he is.

Yeah. So the trigger hits. And the thing is, is you don't know what the trigger, where it's going to come from, when it's going to come. And that's been my experience over and over with my clients. So going back to the research, you're going to hit PTSD symptoms from your previous relationship. And do we know how to deal with those? Do we know how to communicate about those and do we know how to address them within ourselves? That's why this course is actually designed to help you be prepared so you. When those triggers come, not if, but when they come, you will know how to respond well.

And Dr. Skinner, I. I would like to hear your thoughts on this for me. I Felt like I had done all that work, grieved the loss of my marriage, really learned to listen to myself, really, I mean, did the work of healing from betrayal trauma. And I'll tell you this, it's really easy to feel like you're healed from betrayal trauma when you stay single. That's really easy because when it starts to really rear its ugly head is when you actually start dating and you're interrelationships, and that's when your body remembers the triggers more. Because when you're out of the relationship, I'm safe now, and I feel free now. And the vulnerability of entering into that space and sharing that space again, that's when this work begins in an. In another level. I don't know your thoughts on that, Dr. Skinner, but that was my experience.

You know, I often share a story. When I was a boy growing up in rural Idaho, we had a family move up the road from us. And they were close, within a half a mile. And in a small farm community, somebody who has a boy your age is like candy. It's like, woohoo. Somebody's my age, right?

Let's just say Halloween trick or treating took hours, you guys.

Yeah. So my mom says, oh, why don't you go up and introduce yourself? Right? They just moved up. So I get on my bike and I go up there and I get close to their house. Their dog comes out and bites me on my right leg.

Oh, and you still have a dog thing.

And I turn around crying all the way back home because I got bit by this dog. To shorten this story, I'm going on a jog. I'm now 45 years old and I'm running down, you know, I'm running on the street and I can't see this dog in Alvin. Here's. I see a. And I get this adrenaline rush like none other. And I'm like, what this a little Chihuahua, Right? And yet my emotions are just ramped up. And that's the story I share with my clients who've dealt with betrayal, trauma, or other forms of trauma related to a previous marriage. You don't know it until that Chihuahua is chasing you. And for you, you mentioned earlier that buzz of your phone. And if that reminds you of what your former spouse did, then you're triggered. And. And what do you do with that response? And how you respond to it is really the deeper question. How am I going to. Am I going to pull away? Because your phone's buzzing all the time and can I communicate it with you? And can you Receive it, my fears and my concerns and all of these things come into play. And when couples don't know how to negotiate and talk through those triggers, then really dating is really more difficult post divorce because these triggers are absolutely unknown. Yeah, it's a Chihuahua story.

Real trauma when you're single and it all comes up when you're dating and just a different type of work. And so I'm just excited to be able to, to share my experiences working with women over the past decade and, and myself included.

There's a couple other things I want to mention today. One is what I refer to as being able to look behind the dating mask. A few years ago, a colleague of mine who passed away last year, we actually interviewed 12 divorced people. And our, our goal was to actually look at the red flags and identify common red flags that may have occurred in all 12 of these relationships. And the. So those 12 interviews, we actually transcribed them, we looked for themes, and we created a course that was focusing on these, identifying these red flags and how to respond to them and how to understand them. And so parts of the course that we're talking about are some of the core concepts of looking behind that dating mask and just a couple of insights related to that. So one of which is the. It's unspoken, but you feel it. And I don't, I don't even know how to describe this except for what they told us. There would be times where something felt off, they just didn't know what it was. And so in, in the early phase, they're like, okay, I, I don't know what it is, but they would override that initial fear because they didn't have a language for it. Now that I've seen, a lot of divorced individuals, they recognize it, but they still don't necessarily know what to do with that feeling. Can I communicate it or am I going to make, you know, am I going to make this person feel guilty?

Yeah.

And so that's just one of them. The other one is an energy that I don't know if you've ever read the book Talking to Strangers. And in the book Talking to Strangers, the author, Malcolm Gladwell, he talks about people who are unreadable. And even the best CIA, FBI agents, they're, they can't predict what a person's actually doing or thinking based upon their interactions with them. And so there is a group of people that are simply hard to read. And when you can't read somebody, it's really difficult to enter into a deep relationship with them because you can't read them. And so those are just a couple of the red flags that we've identified in that, in that. And is a part of this section, in the behind the dating mask section.

And I have some too more experiential where, you know, I've gone through this journey of betrayal, trauma, divorce. And then they'll say, okay, Amy, I need you more now than ever once I approach dating. And then we really get into this work. And some of the red flags I will mention as well where clients will, I mean I really have. Ben, this is, and this is the fun part, you know, being the mirror that I can hold up because I know them so well and be able to. They'll say, okay, look at this guy. What red flags do you see? And it's like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Because I've dated a lot. I've been with the clients who have dated a lot and there are some that are just so obvious. And so I want to kind of give you, Dr. Skinner gives you, you know, the research proven methods and then I give you the red flags for dummies method. You know, and so maybe, maybe between the, the two of us you'll, you will actually, you know, get the information you need.

Yeah. And the fun part about this is, is you're going to get two different perspectives. Right. I mean I've done over 25,000 hours of clinical work in my 28 year career. And so I have thousands and thousands of hours early in my career, especially when we were focusing on, on dating after divorce and behind the dating mask and helping people recognize red flags. I wrote an assessment. That assessment will also be a part of the course, just identifying some of the core red flags. So there's, there's a lot of fun things I say. Fun, insightful things. My Amy will know that I always use the word fun. To me, fun is when we, fun is when we are not in a painful place that we've been in and we start to see the light and joy and happiness.

And the dating part really is fun. I love that part of the journey with my clients. And you know, we, Dr. Skinner and I have different relationships. He, he has a really beautiful, successful marriage. And so he, he has worked with I don't even know how many thousands of women. And I have the experience that I have been such woman. And so I just have a different perspective based on experience. So I think it'll be a fun experience having both sides.

Absolutely. A couple things and this is just, just if you could give our listening audience Today, Amy, just from your perspective, what you would say you have learned about dating after divorce, that really stands out as a. A highlight to you. It's like, before you date, do this.

What would you say, oh, my goodness, I go through in the course. I. I hope you don't feel like, Amy, you're so controlling because I have these. Okay, before you date, do this, this, this. And then I give you exercises for each area that I feel like you need to do this work before you do this. And one is really get to know yourself. Because when we are in a marriage that, you know, with children, we really can have, we really can lose ourselves. And I talk about, if you give me this list, I can rattle off 50 things that, you know, I. That my husband loves, that my children love, that I can do the order with hamburger, no mustard on this. But when it comes to me, you, I really lost myself and so really become acquainted, reacquainted with myself, for sure. Examining, like, really grieving the losses of the marriage, really doing that deep grief work, because there is love there. It's not all bad. And when we just try to seal it off and, okay, I'm done with that, we carry that grief into the relationship, which then diminishes the space that we're actually able to show up. And so I have a lot of those areas. Identifying your negative beliefs about yourself, because that will help prepare you for when you have triggers in dating. You're like, oh, oh, oh. This is that negative belief that has come from my pain. Another one is identifying qualities you want in a future partner, even if right now it's, I'm dating to have fun and keep an ongoing. And with every date, you will see another quality of, oh, I love that. And I love that. And just the curiosity. So I have. I have a lot of that in the section that, That I cover with, just setting you up for the most success by the work you need to do before. Dr. Skinner, do you remember a few weeks ago when we were doing a material trauma intensive, and we had one client there that was like, I am ready to date, and she was just approaching divorce. And I kept saying, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, slow down, slow down, slow down. And just slow down, slow down, slow down. And I was saying, I know you're so ready to move on, and I really want that for you, but I really need you to go through this work first, and then, you know, so.

That'S critical, you know, and as we. As we slow down, we're more likely to make better decisions. The whole purpose of this course, dating after divorce, is really a preparation process. Again, I'm go back to what we were talking about earlier. When we have such high divorce rates for second, third marriages, it really behooves us to get prepared. So I often say proper preparation prevents a pound of pain.

Well, and divorce you've been through is the hardest thing I have ever done. Hardest thing I've ever done. It is. You know, I just did a. A training with David Kessler, and he said it is. He's a grief expert. It is a death and needs to be grieved as a death. It is painful. It is so painful. And so doing that work is critical.

Yeah. All right, Amy, it's absolutely so fun talking with you. I love the exchange to our listeners. We are going to put a link below for the course so you can sign up. We have a disc right now that is 50% off or close to 50% off. So we absolutely would love to have you join us. This is a course that you can go through on your own, and then when you have questions, you can send us questions, and we will answer your specific questions. Either Amy or I will answer your questions, and periodically we will have a webinar where you can join us, ask your questions. We are just so excited to have this as an offering. Amy, any final thoughts for our listeners today?

I am just so, so, so honored and grateful to be a part of your journey. And I know that even thinking of taking this course, your body, you know, your heart's pounding. It's like. And so we'll help you, guide you through that and give you language for that. And I'm just. I'm excited to go on this journey with you.

All right, thank you so much, Amy. And finally to our listeners, as we finish this podcast out, I would like to just share two things with you. First, we have an opportunity@human intimacy.com where if you have questions or courses that you would like us to create questions you'd like us to address, please send them to questions human intimacy.com where we will provide extra information to help you in your journey towards finding deeper human intimacy. Amy, thank you so much.

Well, of course I want to add one more thing.

Yes, go.

We. We want to hear your feedback of what it is that you want to learn. You know, something I didn't even know I wanted to learn was, okay. I want to learn how to be flirty again, because I haven't been flirty since I was 21 years old in college. This is. I don't know how to do this. And so just give us anything, anything you want more information on, and we will tackle that.

Yes, indeed. All right. Thank you so much, Amy, to our listeners. Thank you for spending this time with us. May you be blessed in your desires to find deep human intimacy.