Defining Your North Star: Understanding Core Values in Relationships (Episode #87)

There's something about you that I can't help but smile. When you smile and laugh. When you laugh, something's around you.

Welcome to the human intimacy podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner. Marianne Michaelis, licensed clinical social worker. Maryanne it's the fall, and it's absolutely beautiful outside. I know I often talk about weather, but it's hard not to when it's this beautiful.

Dr. Skinner. Thinking about chatting today, I thought, yeah, we do talk about the weather. It seems like a starting point, but for me, I noticed today, I was really just noticing a lot of gratitude there. There's a lot of chaos in the world. There's a lot of fear. And I was out working in my yard this morning, and even just driving today and just looking out and seeing some sunshine and some blue skies, and I just. I was grateful to just be here today.

So today's topic. Marianne. We're going to be talking about what drives us, our core values, how we see our lives, our world around us, and especially when we approach relationships, when couples don't understand or aren't congruent with their core values or have differences in their core values, we see a lot of conflict, maybe more deception and hidden behaviors. And really, when we talk about human intimacy, what we see is you understand yourself well enough to express those core values. So I understand who I am, and I can articulate the kind of person that I want and maybe certain things that I don't want in my life and in our relationship.

I think as we're beginning to unpack this, we have to take the elevator down a couple levels. This is something that's been coming up for several of my clients just this week. But one of the things that I've been noticing and finding is we really have to start with figuring out who am I and do I have value? It's really hard for me to figure out my values if I've been going through life just kind of not really having a voice, just kind of going with the flow, trying to avoid conflict. If I ask the client who's in that state, what are your values? What do you think about that? They'll say, I have no idea. I have no idea. And so some of the work that I see individually that has to be done is really figuring out, wait, where. Where is my voice? What do I feel about that? Where have I been hiding? What. What's been going on that I've been keeping quiet and starting at that space. I know today we're going to be talking about a lot of development, because figuring out what our value system is, has to do with normal human psychosocial development.

What's interesting, I would say that even there, when we're younger, we establish our identity and encompassed in that identity our. Our values that we may not have fully understood, like, why do I choose to do certain things or not do certain things, for example, to go to college. Why do I choose to go to college, get an education? What are my goals? Or what's my purpose when I'm at college? Do I choose to drink or not drink? Why do I do that? How about our sexuality? How do I choose to be sexually? And so we have to make these decisions on what we value and how we see things as important or not important. And one of the things that I have observed in working with many of my clients is growing up. If you grow up in a certain environment, it's just normal. So if I grow up with everybody in my family drinks, then that's what we do in our families. We drink. Or if all men look at pornography, then all men look at pornography, and that's just what happens. Or maybe the worst or most difficult situation I dealt with was an individual where everybody in his family had cheated. Grandma's, grandpa's, parents, grandparents. I mean, everybody had cheated. And that was the world that he grew up with. That's just what you do in relationships. So, ultimately, Marianne, I think the question we're trying to get at here is what is your North Star? What is guiding you in your life? And how do you make the decisions about who you're going to be individually, and then how that influences how you show up in your relationships?

Dr. Skinner, I love the examples you used, and I think if we pull those out even further, what we're talking about or part of the conversation here really has to do with the rules that we've been raised with. And part of this work is really deconstructing our rules. So, for example, if I was raised with the belief that it's wrong to be cocky and I have to be respectful and I have an internalized understanding of what that means, or I have to be good, like, it's my job to be good, these might be values that I have been living my life by, and part of the work that we do in therapy is stopping and saying, hold on a second, where did that come from? One of the maybe quick and easy ways to figure out for our listeners and viewers, if you're saying, like, how do I. How do I get there? How do I figure this out? I love looking at the. Shoulds well, you should. I should. Anytime we use that word, should, that is a really quick red flag of saying, like, hey, here it is. Here is one of these rules that we have been raised with that somewhere we adopted that we believe this is the way I have to live. It's this rule, whether it's been spoken or unspoken, we've internalized. This is a rule that I have to live by. This. And that's a really good place to start, is looking at our shoulds.

Yeah. And I think then we're looking as a part of that, we're looking at the social, cultural expectations. You should do this, you shouldn't do that. I remember a friend of mine, just delightful friend. But growing up, anger was a sin. And so anytime there was anger in herself, it was like, oh, that's a sin. I can't be angry. And what that does is it dampens emotions, like, I'm not allowed to do this, and if I do it, I'm a sinner. Just as an example, and I think we have a host of other examples that we could give there about the cultural, social expectations. When we step back and say, what is it that I value myself as a human being? I want to be this way, whatever that looks like. And I think that then it can be our guide. But how do we get to that awareness? Is it culturally, is it cultural expectations, or is it something that I am personally choosing because this is the type of person that I want to be?

Yeah, you're talking about some deep introspection. This is work where we have to really sit down and gain some insight into ourselves. Where did that come from? Because we can talk about our family, we can talk about our culture, we can talk about our faith, we can talk about institutions, organizations. There are so many different values that we kind of like a magnet that we absorb without even really recognizing it. So my family may say, we do this this way. And, you know, if we're talking about relationships, if we're talking about sexuality, it gets really murky, and there can be a lot of conflict pretty quickly, especially if we're saying, well, I was taught this by my church or by my family or from my friends or wherever it came from. I was taught that this. This is the norm, and we don't talk about it. It's bad. That might be something that I'm carrying into my relationship that can really create a lot of difficulty and conflict as we're trying to figure this out as a couple.

Yeah. And I think it's important then, when we look at that understanding, the messages that we received and that are a part of us. And some of those I think are extremely healthy and really positive. But if I've grown up, for example, saying sex is bad, and that's not uncommon in certain cultures, until when? Let's say that sexual feelings are bad until you get married. But sexual feelings are not related to marriage, they happen to us. And so I could internalize this concept that I am bad because I had a sexual feeling because I shouldn't have these feelings until I get married. That's just an example of things that I've heard in my office of people being confused about natural sexual feelings that they're trying to weed out. I shouldn't feel this way or have these inclinations when in truth you don't just turn on the button with marriage.

Well, let's take that even a little bit further back. Going back. Developmentally, young children often touch themselves and they may be touching themselves because it feels good to them. It's not because they are being overtly sexual. It's just like, oh, this, this feels nice for me. They don't know what it is. They just know, oh, when I touch myself here, it feels nice. And then you take a parent who sees that and says, oh my goodness, we can't do that in public. Stop that, that's bad. Jimmy, don't do that. Like that right There is a message that a child can carry and oh, I can't do that. That's bad. Mom gets mad or dad gets mad at me. That's something that this is going to shape how I view when I touch my body in a certain way.

And at that age, not even understanding.

Exactly.

So when eternal life, not understanding it, rather than educating and informing. Okay, so let's talk about body parts and sensations and feelings and age appropriate. But that's just one message, you know, talking about sexuality. But now I feel like I'm a bad person. And now we've moved it away from the acts of touching yourself into I'm a bad person. And that felt good. Now I'm really confused at the meaning of this, right?

And so then take a 10 year old or a 12 year old who's starting to develop sexually because that's what our bodies do. And this internalized belief that I've been carrying, I can't touch myself, but it feels good. But I might be, then what? And I can't talk about it because I already got in trouble from it. And nobody's talking about this, so what do I do with that? I don't even know what my value is about that. I just know that it's bad.

So it's undefined because I know that it's bad, but I don't understand why it's bad at that younger age. And maybe I get more older and more mature and understand. But at some point, then we have to make that personal decision of understanding why do I choose to engage or not engage in that act. And that's what I'm looking at here, what I would call our sexual container in this situation. What are my sexual values? I also have to have an emotional container. So what I'm saying there, Marianne, is we have to put containers on all of our experiences, sexual behaviors, our emotions, and even there, our thoughts. There has to be a place where we say these types of thoughts. I'm not going to stay in these types of thoughts or in these kind of emotions or in these sexual behaviors, because if I don't have a container, then there are no boundaries. And that's really what we're talking about. If I have core values, it's because I'm choosing to put boundaries upon myself. And I understand that by choice, not by any cultural or social expectation. I'm choosing this because this is the type of person that I want to be. That's what I'm referring to. So my client, who said anger is a sin, decided, no, actually, anger is a normal part of a human emotion. And when I feel anger, I'm not going to feel like I'm sinning. I'm going to understand and go get curious about what I'm angry about.

And I would ask where that person learn that anger was a sin? Where did that come from?

From a parent.

Okay, so there it is. As a child, a parent says, you're sinning, you're being bad. There's that. Good, bad. And as children, we really. We really think in concrete ways developmentally. We think good, bad, black, white, that that's how our brain works at these young ages, before we're about 8 to 10 years old. That's really how our brain's processing because we're trying to sort through and make sense of our world. So we have these beliefs that we've been carrying that we've been taught. And what I love that you were talking about, Dr. Skinner, it really comes down to finding our why. What is my why? And my why has to be something that I'm sitting down and saying, like, does this bring value to my life? How do I feel with this? I'm always working through A lens of attachment, I think you are as well. But looking at how, is this helping me? Is this helping me turn towards my partner? Is this helping me turn towards other people? Or am I turning inward? Am I turning away? Am I disconnecting? And so even looking at my sexuality, is my sexuality something that I'm connecting with my partner and turning to them and figuring out together, or am I disconnecting? Am I moving away?

And when we understand ourselves well enough, and I think this is the exploratory thing that we probably talked about in many of our different podcasts, again, there's so much introspection, understanding more about self, that is required for us to really show up in relationships. But far too often I hear people say, I don't even know what I value. I think you mentioned that earlier. I don't even know. Well, that's the work that we're talking about. In order for us as human beings to show up in relationships and to truly maybe even be aware of ourselves, we have to understand why we're doing what we're doing and making the choices that we're making. And without that awareness, then I might go here because that's the voice that's going on right now. Or I might go here because that's the voice that's going on. It's understanding ourselves well enough to say, I understand who I am and now I can present myself in a relationship. And that, Marianne, is where I see so many times with young couples who are just getting together. There's this space where I'm afraid to talk about what I am feeling or what I'm experiencing, and I don't know how to do that. And so we enter into relationships in a place of secrecy, where, in truth, I'm not allowing people to see into my world because if you really knew me, I'm bad. And that is where I see a lot of younger couples, in particular Marianne, as they enter into these committed relationships, are struggling because they're afraid to really be seen.

Dr. Skinner, I keep coming back to the development. And so we're looking at these developmental stages. We've talked about the really young ones. We talked a little bit about the adolescent in the young adult stages. We have this plot of land and our parents have put some trees on it and some nice shrubs over here and some boulders here. They've planted their values and their beliefs and they've taught us, and it's a very normal part of young adults development for us to say, well, wait a second, this is my plot of land. What am I gonna have on it? And sometimes we raise the whole lot. We get rid of everything that's on there, and then we have to figure out, my parents planted that tree there, but I don't know if I even want that. I don't know if I even want trees. Maybe I want a xeriscape, my land. I don't know. And so we have to spend some time figuring out, what do I really want? What's my why? So my parents taught me this, My faith taught me this, My culture taught me this. But where does it come back to me? Especially if we've got couples that are really young, I think most of the time they have no idea. They don't know. And what I see in my office oftentimes are couples or individuals who might be in this state of saying, well, I thought my partner was this way, and now they're figuring out that they're not that way. And now what do I do when my partner suddenly is a stranger to me? And they're a stranger to themselves as well.

Right? A stranger to themselves. Because when we enter in without knowing ourselves or being able to communicate, I think we see individuals who hide parts of themselves. I've seen people do eating disorders and sexual behaviors, and so they bring into this relationship sexual secrets or mental health secrets or other challenges. And so when you enter into that relationship, you're entering into it because this person is probably aspiring you to be a better person. Right? I'm inspired to be this better person, and I'm not being the real me, because you are inspiring me to be better. And yet I'm not letting you see this part of me that's struggling with an eating disorder or a certain sexual behavior.

A.

And so I enter in with deceptiveness. And at least in my experience as a therapist, the repair part is more difficult because we've entered into this without understanding or really knowing this person. So we're not being seen.

So what do we do with that?

That's a great question. What do we do with it? And my answer to that question is, I think we need to step back and understand ourselves well enough. And that's the personal journey. But I think we need to start earlier in our parenting, and as we educate people in relationships, we have to understand what are my biggest fears, what are my biggest challenges? And I think if we were to start off our relationships with more meaningful conversations and really have some really difficult conversations, so we are actually entering into this relationship being seen, I think we would understand each other on a really valuable level or an important level because we're allowing ourselves to. To reflect. And let me just give an example of that. I think it's really easy for us when we're in the infatuation phase of an early relationship. I think that we could call it that when we're in that we look over this problem or this problem, because, man, you're my person. You excite me. And I'm really excited to talk with you, and I think about you, and you're on my mind. And, yeah, you've got this little problem, but what I don't see is the other parts of you. And so I think we've got to learn how to communicate more about those parts in us that maybe are a little bit more difficult. And I've heard many people say, but if I would have told them this, they would not have married me.

And this is tricky because you're Talking about what Dr. Gottman calls positive sentiment override, where we choose to give the benefit of the doubt. And we're also talking about that early stage of infatuation where our brain's, like, on cocaine. And we're just. We don't see a lot. We're just in this euphoria of this new relationship, and so we can miss a lot. It's usually around three or four months in. In a relationship where we start to see, oh, now I'm starting to see how this person really may be. But I want to fast forward because I work with a lot of individuals either side of the couple, who, as they begin doing some of their individual work, trauma work, they start to discover things. So maybe they haven't known how to say, no, I'm not okay with that, or they haven't been able to say or even figure out their value system because of the trauma, because of some of the core beliefs. And so as we go through and we work through these core beliefs, like I'm bad or I'm unlovable, when that starts to shift and change, that can cause a lot of disruption in the relationship. When the partner starts to say, hold on, I'm not like that anymore, and that's not who I am, and it can become really difficult for the other partner. Wait, wait a second. Our agreement. I came into this relationship, and this is who you were, and this was your values, and this is what I've been planning on. And now you're telling me that something.

Shifted and changed, and that's a really important one because I think we've seen that a lot. But both directions Some people, as they start to identify what's important to them, sometimes it's their sexual behaviors. Like, I would like to be more exploratory. And maybe earlier in our marriage, that wasn't okay, but now I'm starting to think about that or the other direction. It's like we were doing this, and I was really uncomfortable with it. Now I'm getting my voice, and I'm not comfortable with it. And so I think it can go both directions. But this really then boils down to, can we, as a couple, respect each other and understand each other well enough and be vulnerable enough to have that kind of a conversation? I'm going to say, Marianne, I think most couples are afraid of that conversation because they usually fight about it.

What I would add to that, what I've really seen, even recently, is if an individual can come from a space of saying to their partner, hey, I've been learning a lot about myself, and this is where I am. If they can come in a vulnerable place, boy, there's so much power to that vulnerability. Most of the time, my clients want their partners to show up. They just want their partners to show up and be emotional and say, here's where I'm at. And the other option is to hide, or to be defensive or to blame or to be a victim. But instead of shutting my partner out, if I can come from a place where I'm really just inviting my partner into my world and wanting them to see and understand, this is what I'm going through, I'm confused. I'm trying to figure this out. I don't know how to do this. Most of the time. A partner who understands that's going on with their partner can be patient. They've got some compassion. They can work with that.

And I think we could give a couple of specific examples here. As I work with individuals, I see many people that are uncomfortable. And I'll go back to the concept of anger. They're uncomfortable with their partner's anger, and so the anger is there, but because they're uncomfortable, it's like, don't go there. And they will either pull away or they'll go into a shame spiral. And so it's a place where a person can't express anger or sometimes even emotion. And so because of my discomfort with that, I shut it down. And in the example you're giving, can I be with this person in this experience, whatever that experience is, can I at least understand it, that emotion that they're experiencing? I could say that's true of Other things. Let's say that you wanted to move to a new part in the country and you said, I want to accept this job and it's a great opportunity. And you were so excited about it and your spouse shut you down. No, we're not going to move. Our kids are here and this is it. And there's no discussion. Then we aren't having vulnerable conversations because I'm instantly shutting it down. And in that context, we can find it with emotions, we can find it with sexuality. And we are uncomfortable with such strong things, emotions, sexuality. And that was a decision about do we move or do we not move. But if I shut it down, I'm not enabling us to have a really important conversation. And you may say to me, but this is an opportunity that could help improve my career and help me move forward. And it was something that would give me a great opportunity. I value having that opportunity and I'm able to hear that that's important to you and at least acknowledge it. Or do I shut it down?

And here's so many places we can go with this, Dr. Skinner. I think with that example, I might have a knee jerk reaction and can we slow it down and can say, and I value the people that we have in our close circles here and I value what's happening for our children and I value our roots that we've been putting down here. My knee jerk reaction is about me. It's about my response. If we go back to that earlier example that you were sharing, if I'm reacting to that anger that you might be experiencing, what happens if we slow it down? And I can say, hey, when you're angry with me or when you speak to me that way, my reaction to that is it's not okay at all. And it's because this is what I experienced as a child. And it's because when you talk to me that way, this is how I feel inside. And that is so hard for me. My value is that I can't be talked to that way because it takes me back into some earlier trauma and my body starts to shut down and react to that. And so I think this is part of our conversation too, of figuring out what, what am I not okay with and why? And being able, if I can share that with my partner, I'm not okay with this. And here's why. And can you please, will you please do X, Y, Z? I think that's really important.

Yeah. So when it's emotionally charged, I don't do very well. Obviously, there's a lot of energy with what you're saying, can we at least have this understanding what it's doing to me as well? I know this is important to you, and in the energy you're bringing here, I really feel like I'm going to pull back. Right. In contrast, I could respond to that. Look, we were never going to talk about it, Marianne. You never let me talk about these important things. Things. And you're just shutting me down again. Here you go, going to your childhood issues, and, you know, it's like, we can never have a hard conversation.

Oh, you're throwing knives at me here. Wow. And so I'm so shut down because you just told me how messed up I am. And it's always that I'm going to my childhood stuff, and you're the victim here. Boy, I can hear that, and I'm narrating what I'm hearing. And if I were in a really healthy place, I might respond to that and say, yes, I hear you, and I know this is important. I'm wondering if you might be willing to email it to me, and that might give me a few minutes to see it in another way when I'm not so emotionally charged or defensive. Because this is important to you. And yes, I have some trauma, and yes, I've been working on that, and I'm trying to work through that. But, yes, sometimes I do have reactions. So this is important to you, and I want to have a conversation. I want to understand what's important to you. So is there a way for you to email that to me and then we can have another conversation about that in a different space and time?

Yeah. And so what you did is you've made a request and you validated. I want to hear it. I want to understand.

Yeah.

So, again, that's because you understand yourself well enough. The core value is I'm not going to be in a conversation that is attacking or there's criticism or contempt, and I'm choosing not to be there. So, again, when we talk about our core values, the things that drive us, again, it's the way we're going to show up in relationships, and maybe the way that we're going to choose not to accept certain things in relationships, and so we have to understand ourselves well enough. Can we go into this space of personal awareness intentionally saying, you know, I think this is a good idea for us to explore this conversation. This is important to you, and because it's important to you, it's important to me, and I'm gonna go back to the moving situation. What you're saying is really important. I know the kids are here, and I know that we're settled here and we got friends and all of that. That's important to me as well. And I'm looking for this opportunity thinking, I wonder what to think about it. So I would love your feedback on that, and I'd like to explore that as a brainstorm together of what are our options and how do we negotiate around maybe some differences we have in this area?

Because you're important to me, and we're a team, and it takes some time. It takes us some personal time. Usually we don't just have it right offhand. It takes a minute, oftentimes to sit back and go, hmm, what was going on in that conversation? And then we can have the repair. I think it's really important for us to be able to recognize what's going on with us. It takes so much courage also to be able to say, hey, this is what was happening for me. And, hey, I didn't do that the way that I should have or the way that I wanted to, to take responsibility, to acknowledge it, to bring it to the table and say, you know what? This was what was going on, and this wasn't you. I had something that I didn't want to tell you, and so I managed some information, and I was gaslighting you. When you did notice that something was wrong, you tried to label it, but you couldn't figure it out. But when we acknowledge it and when we see it, and for me, it's a process to get there, I figure out my values by how I feel. If I feel slight, like, ooh, I feel slimy inside, I feel that is not how I wanted to act or behave. That's how I figure out my values. My value is that doesn't feel good for me. I didn't show up the way that I wanted to, and I don't want to do that in the future. And that is part of the defining our values is how am I showing up? How am I presenting? And it really is coming, at least for me, it's coming in and noticing internally how did I just feel in that interaction? And what do I need to learn or change from that?

So, Marianne, two thoughts here. One is, when we value our relationships, we will spend time figuring out how to solve, how to have meaningful conversations, and, may I say, even difficult conversations, because I want to hear you, I want to understand you, and I want to be understood. And so if my most important thing is my relationship with, say, my spouse, or my children, then my actions need to be consistent around that value. And if I haven't been doing that well, then I need to work to figure out how to give the most utmost attention to the things that I value the most. And whether that is effective communication or whether that is that we're going to spend time together. If I say I value our relationship, then I'm going to spend more time. I'm going to have more difficult conversations. I'm going to lean into these things that I've been afraid of. Because if I value this, then my energy needs to be put into it and I need to figure out how to do it the best possible way I can. I like that a lot. So I want to shift in our last couple minutes today, I want to shift to maybe a little bit different. Different part of this I can hear our listeners saying, but what happens if our values aren't aligned? What do we do when you value this? Whatever that is. And I can't go there. And sometimes as a clinician, I see this is a common barrier to connection because I feel threatened that your values aren't my values or we aren't on the same page with this. And when I hear that, it feels threatening because. Wait a second. How do you not see it this way? Or why won't you consider this as an option? And so what do we do when we have difference of values that are no longer aligned or maybe they once were, and maybe I've shifted into it, maybe a little bit different, and I'm more open or tolerant to certain things and you're not.

I think that is such an incredible question. Maybe looking at it through betrayal, sometimes I might feel betrayed. Wait, this is what I thought we had both agreed on and now you're saying you don't. And so I might be having some really big emotions. I might feel crushed. I might feel so betrayed and have so much grief and loss that's going on here. If something suddenly changed, this isn't what I was planning for. And this is a space where I do think we have to step into grief and loss. And one of the things that I've learned from you over the years, Dr. Skinner, is sometimes we have to sit down with a couple and say, what? What are we doing here? What are we doing here? You've got different value systems going opposite directions. What do you want to do about it?

And that leads to. It doesn't mean you don't love each other. It may simply mean this issue right here is a hot topic. We don't agree on it. We don't align in our values on this. What does that mean? If we really did a self reflection there, does it mean you don't love me or does it mean in this area that we don't align and can I respect that or do I want you to do exactly the way I want you to do it? And so you only love me if you do it my way? And do you see what we're doing there is we're now imposing our value or values on another person. You only love me if you align with me or agree with me. And we have to step back and understand we are going to have differences. Now, some core values, for example, I value fidelity. And if my spouse breaks that agreement, then yeah, they have to choose if they're going to be with me. Are you going to realign in this value of fidelity or not? Right, but that's a bigger example. There might be smaller examples where I value more saving more money and you value spending. You don't mind buying a new vehicle. We might have those kind of differences. But my point here is I need to understand, and we need to understand ourselves in relationships of how to best communicate these things without shutting the other person down trying to understand that.

Yeah, I think there's a lot of room here to talk about boundaries because that example that you use, I've seen this with clients before where I've got a client who's married and then their partner says, hey, I decided that I want to start swinging. I want to start inviting other people into the relationship. My clients had to say, that's not how I want to live. That doesn't work for me. No, I can't do that. I can't live that type of life with you. That doesn't work for me. If this happens, here's what I will need to do to take care of myself. And boy, I think we can superimpose what's going on socially right now in our country as we're talking, like we've been talking about values in the bedroom or in the home life. But boy, doesn't this extend to people who might have a political difference of opinion? How can I view somebody as another human being and look deeply into them and maybe just want to understand who they are without having to say, I reject you, I have to cut you off. You can't be in my life right.

When we understand this, we almost are aware that we are going to have differences. And I'm not threatened by that difference. I want to be clear. There Are some things like infidelity, and I'm not saying that, but in many instances, our value differences are not going to be that far misaligned. And if they are, that probably means we aren't going to be a good fit. Like you gave the example of I wanted to swing. Well, if that's not my value, if that's where you want to go, we're probably not going to be a good match moving forward.

Right. Because how does that work?

Right. For me, it doesn't work. So I understand that well enough. But more often than not, when we stop and listen to certain things and desires, it's like, let me put this into what you're actually asking here. You want that new car to help me understand that. And so we can actually have a dialogue around these difficult conversations rather than shutting it down. And that is an important part of. Of when we understand our values well enough to articulate them in a relationship and respect the other person's opinion, even if we don't agree. But when we're in a committed relationship, then we're going to have to lean into those hard conversations. And I'm going to tell our listeners there may be some of these conversations you can't have on your own because it's too emotionally charged. That's when you really need to say, we need professional help to navigate through these things. Recognizing I'm not going to take personally that you have a value difference on this, I'm going to try to understand it, and I'm going to say, can I live with that or no?

You know, to be very simplistic, Sometimes I step into this just very simplistically with my clients, and I'll say, you know, what's your favorite ice cream? Oh, you like Rocky Road? What's your favorite ice cream? Oh, you like mint chocolate chip? Why is it upsetting to you that your partner likes Rocky Road? And I know it seems so simple, but we have to look at it and say, what is it about your partner liking Rocky Road that is upsetting to you? What. What is happening for you? Obviously, as you said, relationally, this can really impact some areas of our lives. But I really believe that deep down, we all want to be seen, we all want to be loved, and we all need and crave and want and desire connection. And the more that we can slow down and listen to each other, it's that vulnerability. Can I show up with you and say, here's where I'm at. Can you see me? And from that space, if we can see each other. I think that's where we can find the compassion and sometimes even the patience as our partner or as others are trying to figure out, hey, I've gotta unravel some things from my rules that I've been living by to figure out how I want to live. And if I can see my partner making that effort, can I be soft and kind and try to go with them, not necessarily on their journey, but just to be with them, turning in towards them as they're trying to figure this out, rather than saying, I can't do that, cut you off.

I think what you're saying there's important, Marianne. I think, honestly, if we look at this right, I want to be with you on your journey. I might not agree with everything that you're feeling and experiencing, but often I think we're threatened by other people's feelings and what they're experiencing and allowing them space. Because I want you to choose to be in this relationship. Because you're choosing to be in this relationship. And committed. We often get into relationships with assumptions. A couple final thoughts. I was reading this book, Marianne, and many people, they expect certain things in relationships, but they really never talk about them. Right. I mean, how many couples talked about fidelity before marriage?

Oh, yeah, yeah. There's just this assumption. I go into this relationship, I assume that we both have the agreement that we're going to be faithful.

Yeah, yeah. That's usually an assumption. Right. And normally that's what we expect. And yet in our culture today, I think we need to have important conversations about, not just that. I've had people say, well, I didn't know you wanted that many children or wanted children. And then we could go on and on. All right, so, Marianne, key points. Something that we're going to start doing on humanintimacy.com, we're going to create a human intimacy podcast link where our listeners can go get show notes and maybe assignments from each podcast. And so today's assignment is designed to help you identify some of the core values that are guiding you. So if you'll go to humanintimacy.com podcastshow notes, we will give you some assignments and things to think about.

Awesome. You know, Dr. Skinner, I've got three thoughts as we wrap up. First of all, I just see this from both. Both sides of a relationship. I think it's really important. We all have to figure out what our values are. And that might take some time, and especially if we've had some trauma. And as human beings, most of us have experienced Some hard things, and we have to work through our stuff. And that just comes with being alive and living. But we have to figure out what do I value, what's important to me? When we have that, that kind of acts like our guiding star. It's so liberating because I can say, nope, I can make this decision because I know who I am. I know how I want to interact and interface with the world. So we all need to do that work. And if we're in a relationship, that second part, I think, is that we also need to recognize we need to give each other space and time. And if we can slow down and if something's coming up for us about our partner and their values and. Or their process, where they're at, can we slow down? Can we get some support for how that's impacting us? And so there's. There's those two sides of that. And I think just the third last thing that I want to end with is has. Every relationship is an adventure.

And.

And if we can look at it, we can choose to be threatened by it, or we can go into it from this open mindset of saying, you're a completely different human than I am. How can I see the world through your eyes? What does it look like for you? I don't have to be threatened by what the world looks like through your perspective. It's an adventure getting to know you because you don't even know yourself. All of life is all, I think, for all of us. We're having new experiences. We're seeing things from different vistas as. As we do insight and personal work. It's. Sometimes it's like we're stepping up the stairs. It's like, oh, my goodness. I'd never seen this from this perspective. And if we can let our partners in or let them go with us, what an adventure. And this, this is talking about the attachment and the intimacy rather than being threatened by you changing. Can I learn about you and grow with you?

All right. Great topic today. And to our listeners, we appreciate you letting us share our thoughts with you. And may you be blessed as you pursue human intimacy in all your relationships. Well, Marianne, thank you for your time and to our listeners.

Have a great thanks, Dr. Skinner.

And laugh. When you laugh, something surround you. It's like you're shining, you're siren.