Emotional Ownership: Understanding and Responding to Your Inner World (Podcast #96)

There's something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh, something's around.

Welcome to the human intimacy podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner here with Marianne Michaelis, licensed clinical social worker. Marianne, as we go through a holiday season, there's a range of emotions that we experience. The ups, the downs, maybe the fears and the worries, the concerns. Everything from dealing with in laws and outlaws and bylaws and all the laws associated with the holiday season. So today I want to talk about a really important topic, and that is emotional ownership. Deal with our own emotions as we go into difficult emotional or potentially emotionally charged experiences. Marianne, your initial thoughts?

I think this is a really timely topic, Dr. Skinner, because there is nothing like the holidays, as we spoke about in a previous podcast, about where family can trigger so many emotions or not being with family can trigger so many emotions. And we know that oftentimes with the darker, at least in the northern hemisphere, the darkness gets to people. There's more loneliness, there's more anxiety. Yeah. So I know this is a time where people really, really struggle. And so as we're talking about emotional ownership, I think this is such a timely topic and a sensitive topic because we're talking about acknowledging probably emotions that I don't want to acknowledge, things that are hard for me.

Yeah. And so as we talk about emotional ownership, I think that there's this important part of what are the emotions that are dominant for me? And then the other part of it, what do I do with those emotions? And then maybe even a step further, what do I do with your emotions? So I think we can cover this range of topics, but first and foremost, like, I've worked with individuals throughout my career, and when I ask questions like, so how do you feel about that? How do you. I get a wide range of responses. Some people are really good and other people say things I have no idea. Is it okay to not know?

Well, Dr. Skinner, like, your question is such a quintessential therapist question, like, let's talk about how you feel about that. But that response is, I say that a little bit tongue in cheek. But that response really is. Oftentimes I haven't even thought about it. It's something that I avoid. It's something I don't want to think about it. I don't even know how to connect to this because, one, it might be too painful. Two, I might feel like if I go there, I won't be able to manage it. I don't know what to do with that. I have no idea how I feel about it, because I have been avoiding it at all costs.

And so we distract ourselves, we numb ourselves out because we're not comfortable with emotions. But by the way, my aunt and uncle are coming over for the holidays, and all of a sudden I start remembering all these conflicts and fights, and I've got to go to mom and Dad's, and I remember the conflict there. And all of a sudden I'm anticipating this difficult conversation or, oh, my goodness, how are we going to get through this? And so that, Marianne, is, I think, as we talk about it, heading into the holidays, but just in general, like, I can see other people, I can experience things, but how well do I know myself and my own emotions?

If I can just add a little bit more onto that, I might be bracing myself and saying, yeah, I'm gonna go be with these people. And oh, my goodness, I can't believe what that person just said. And holy cow, oh, my goodness. And I might really be having to suppress and really tamp down my emotions, because what I want to say is something that might get me thrown out of the house. It might be totally out of control. And so I'm trying to man navigate all of these landmines and trying to keep it together. That's a lot of pressure.

And so when we talk about ownership, I can't own something I don't know or don't understand or. Right. So that personal reflection is what is it that I'm experiencing with aunts and uncles or parents? Parents are going to this place for the holidays. Or maybe it's not even the holidays. Maybe it's like just a get together, or I'm dealing with a stressful situation with a work employee or a boss, or I'm dealing with it with my spouse or with my children. Emotions run high in. In our relationship. So that's just a typical thing, because we in our relationships, that's where we drum up our emotions.

Oh, and that vacuum of I have to work or I don't have anybody to spend the holiday with.

Yeah, Now. And now you're speaking about loneliness.

Right, Right. That's the other end of the spectrum.

Yeah. So when we want to explore our emotions, Marianne, I think the big part here is really this reflection on myself, like, if I'm going to own my emotions. See, as an example, let me just give a couple of statements that we hear that would be the opposite of emotional ownership. You made me, or I wouldn't feel this way, or I wouldn't be this way without. And so now we're shifting that responsibility you made me or you always or you never. So that's then shifting my emotions to. Towards somebody else. In contrast with that, I could acknowledge, like, when we're together, I often feel angry. Now that, that, that is an ownership when we're together, that I feel this emotion. I'm owning it. I feel it. This is not necessarily your fault I'm experiencing it, but the shift there is. I'm owning. Like, I. When we're together, I don't know what to do with that anger or that frustration or the hurt. But I'm. I'm honest with you in this. I am feeling this way. And I don't know if I'm in a relationship and I say that my spouse, still more partner or whatever, may still say, oh, you. So you're blaming me. That could still be the interpretation of that. But if I say, Marianne, at this time when we're together, it seems like my emotions, I'm angry. I can acknowledge. I need to own that that's mine. And I don't know what to do with it. But I'm. I'm acknowledging it because I. I don't like the way we're interacting. I don't like to feel angry.

And, and what I noticed there, Dr. Skinner, as you were talking, I thought about a flight. For any of our listeners or viewers who ever been on an airplane, at least for me, there's always like, okay, we're getting ready. We're coming down, and you know that the wheels are out, and you know that you're going to be landing. And what I heard you demonstrate there was a really direct, really abrupt landing that's jarring. And then I heard you demonstrate a really soft and smooth landing that had some preparation in it. And I think that's really essential here to what you're talking about. I think that the message. One of the messages that we're sharing today is understanding what's going on with me and being able to communicate that with other people. And it's probably not something that we're really great at. And sometimes it can come across bumpy and choppy and jarring for the people who are receiving it. But what I heard you trying to model was, let's figure out how to do this in a really relational way, because I heard your tone change and the context of your delivery was a very night and day difference. And, and I'm. I know that you were doing that on purpose, but I want to just make that very explicit because so much is conveyed there and that point.

Right. Because it is difficult to hear when we are together. I'm angry. I can acknowledge that. That's true. And yet the other part of it is I don't like feeling that way in our. In when we're together. I don't like that experience. Something needs to be different. Something needs to change. And I don't know how we do that, but I'd like to talk about it because this interaction is not working. See, the. The conversations that we have with each other, I think we're so afraid of difficult conversations and maybe even our own emotions that we run from them, we flee from them. So I don't come home from work early, because if I come home from work early, we're going to fight. And I don't want to talk about this problem all night long. And so I delay coming home because I'm avoiding our conversation, or do we have to talk about this again? Rather than saying, you know, I found that I'm actually not coming home because I just don't like the way we're fighting. Something needs to change.

And that's so tricky as a partner, hearing that, just hearing your partner, everything that you said. If I were a partner hearing that, I think any human would be like. Like, there's that fear factor that comes up. Oh, my partner just said they don't like coming home, which means they don't like being with me. And that's really hard to receive. No matter how soft you land that, that is a. A hard conversation. I know we've talked here before about mature conversations. And so even being able to say, like, hey, I like to talk with you about something, I have some concerns that I want to bring up with you. And I would also add to that. Is there a way to bring us both to the table and say, here's a problem that I'm noticing in our relationship. How do we together figure out how to solve this?

Yeah. And let's go to a response to that. Right? So if I go to the other side of that, your partner comes home and says, I don't want to do that. A natural response. Oh, so you're avoiding me. Right? You. You. So you don't really love me, do you? You're spending more time at work. That just illustrates that you don't care. Right. So I could respond that way, but that's still not owning my own emotions. I'm then shifting the responsibility. You owe you this.

Which is interesting right there, Dr. Skinner, because you're coming in hot. You're not as you're saying, like, this is about owning our emotions. And so being able to respond in that way that you just demonstrated, that's a hot response. And what I mean by hot response is it's reactive, it's defensive. You're attacking rather than coming and saying like, oh, man, when you say that, I feel a pit in my stomach. When you say that, I feel really scared.

And.

And I know I. I've mentioned in this podcast before, you know, my husband on a Monday, said, I'd like to schedule an appointment to talk with you on Sunday. I'm like, no way. I'm not waiting till Sunday. I'm not gonna worry for six days and to figure out what this is. But being able to say, here's what happens to my body. Here's what's happening for me. When you say that, you came in saying like, oh, no, oh, no. And you went right into that attack mode. And that's what we're talking about.

Yes. Because initial. Even if I notice I'm coming home late and I recognize this is a problem, but if I interpret that because my spidey senses are high and maybe my belief is, you don't care about me, you don't love me anymore, I instantly go into this space of abandonment. You don't. You're rejecting me. You don't. Right. Obviously you don't want to be with me. What. But what's interesting in that conversation is why were they telling me this? See, if I. If I just break that down, Mary. And there's the reason why they're telling me this. What I. Is. I'm going to call it a gift because I was so triggered by it.

Yeah. Your walls went right up. But what's fascinating is if, like, even your tone, and this is what I think. I. I feel like I'm just keeping. I'm trying to drive your tone. If you were to say, it feels like to me, like, you don't care about me.

Hmm.

I feel like you don't want to spend time with me. That's very different than, you don't love me, you don't care about me, you don't want to spend time with me. Just the tone and how we say it, that. That softness changes everything.

Because again, tone. So am I able to do that? Or is it triggering to me to the point where I am angry, I am responding with a defensiveness. See, then I'm actually not. I'm not aware of really what it did to me. Just putting it out there. Oh, you don't love me. That may be the most raw, vulnerable truth of what I'm actually feeling. But a deeper dive would give us a different emotional experience.

Right, but what I. This dynamic that we're talking about, I see this over and over and over again. It with my clients because it's such a quick trip to a shame spiral. So my partner says something. I hear it. How? The filter that maybe I'm hearing it through or the tone that I hear, what I interpret says, oh, I did it wrong. Oh, something wrong with me. And then I shut down. I. I hit shame. This is. I'm not good enough. And then we're into this whole other cycle.

Okay, so. So now let's just reverse a little bit of roles here. Say. Say I come home late from work. My spouse is triggered for whatever reason. You. You don't really love me. If you did, you would have contacted me. You would have sent me a message. You don't even love me. The energy there. What, are you lying to me again? You're cheating on me.

It.

Okay, so I'm already emotionally charged. And what's my message there? What am I hoping to accomplish in that situation? Marianne? I'm in fight response, right?

So if we were talking about healthy, healthy response would be to be able to slow down and see where we're at and see where our partner's at. Can I see my partner and say, oh, you're having a hard time. You were triggered. That makes sense that you'd feel anxious when I wasn't home on time. Makes sense that you'd be worried that I might be acting out because I've stayed late for work and I've acted out before. That makes a lot of sense. But I have to be able to slow myself down enough to be able to see that in my partner. Because if not, that is where I hit my shame. And then I'm reactive, and I'm like, why do you always go there? Why can't you trust that when I.

You're never gonna trust me. You're never gonna get over this. Why are we even married? Why are you doing it? And notice that just that blaming and the shifting and. No, neither one of them are hearing the other. So emotional ownership. I'll give a very personal example of this. Mary. And I don't tell this story very often just because it's an old story. But many years ago, when I was getting my PhD, my wife and I had a really unique situation. So we had our oldest daughter, and my wife said, hey, my cousin is in beauty school, and she's learning to cut hair. And she has asked that I come get my haircut. And she said she would do it for free and I'd like to get my haircut. And so she's like, but what do you. What's your plan? And I said, well, I have a client that I need to be with at six o'.

Clock.

So she leaves like two and a half hours before this, like 2:30. And I'm watching our daughter. And about a half an hour before, my wife's still not home. And I'm 15 minutes before she's not home. And the time I'm supposed to be meeting with my client, she's not home. And everything's inside of me is going on. Like, did she get in an accident? Is something wrong? Why is she not contacting me? Why is she not this. And my daughter's now starting to cry, picking up my emotions at this point, I'm like, I'm calling up my office saying, look, I can't. I've got my daughter here. I don't even have a car to get there. And so could you just let this client know that I need to reschedule? I have another client the next hour. And still my wife is not home. And finally she comes home. And now I'm going that evening to run a group on domestic violence.

You're a little worked up.

And everything inside of me is like, how disrespectful. You knew that I had to do this. We had a verbal agreement. Everything inside of me, I felt like she obviously doesn't respect, doesn't know, doesn't care.

And let me just clarify, I'm guessing this is before cell phones were really.

Oh, there was no such thing. There was landlines. I mean, this is the 90s.

Just clarifying for listeners, there is no cell phone.

There is no text message. There is that right? That doesn't exist. And so she walks in the door and at that point I'm like, okay, how am I going to respond when this happens? I have to choose how I'm going to respond there. And I'd worked through that in my mind. I don't know how many different versions. I went through everything from hellfire. And this is awful to this, okay, I'm teaching a class tonight on domestic violence. What have I been teaching these individuals? How to deal with and regulate emotion. And so when she came home, I simply said, we'll do something different next time. I'd love to talk with you. I've got to go now. She was anxious as I'll be. Later on as we process this. She was so anxious to come home because she knew, you know, and later on, I get the story, you know, I. What I didn't know is my cousin was in training, and so they had to check this and then this part of it, and then they had to check this part of it. And what I didn't know is it was going to be a three and a half hour experience. She didn't know that she didn't have a way to get out of the. Out of the chair. She didn't have. She just couldn't communicate with me. Now I can understand all that. She's not going to leave in the middle of this. She's helping her cousin. She's not going to do that. In the moment of it, your emotions take over.

Right.

And everything inside of me. I will say I think I handled that probably the best of most of our exchanges. When I've been heated, that's probably one of my better ones. But it required everything inside of me to just pause and say, what's the story here?

Do you know what's interesting here, Dr. Skinner? You did go through a process. I've been reading a book, the Book of Forgiveness by Desmond Tutu. And he talks about for us to give to that forgiveness place. He says. I love the imagery. He says we have to step through the shoals. So it's kind of like, in my mind, it's like the image of walking through water or river or something. The shoals of hatred and anger. And then we have to go through grief and loss. And that brings us to the acceptance of forgiveness. And I love how he lays this out linearly. I don't know if that's the right word, but what I heard you say is, I went through hellfire and whatever else. I think what I've just been hearing you say is you went through this whole process, grief and loss. Hey, move my client. Like. Like you went through that whole process to get to my best reaction.

Well, and if I reflect on it, the embarrassment of making a commitment and not being able to be there and. And then not hearing anything. There is a landline. She could at least call. Is she okay? Is she at the hospital? And so grief, loss, all of those fears come into your mind and these assumptions.

She does not care about me. I'm not important. My clients aren't important.

Reptile brain inside of me is fight, fight, fight. Fleet figured out what's the problem? What's the problem? Right. The prefrontal cortex has a Very different opportunity here to step in and say, how are you going to respond? You got a choice here. You have a choice. That's the emotional ownership. And I wish I could say that I've been perfect etiquette, but I haven't. Right. And that's a learning process for all of us. Marianne, we all have the opportunity to say, what am I really trying to communicate here? And how do I walk through this process going into the deeper self. Relationships trigger us into our pain points. And I think we aren't communicating authentically in most of our statements. We're communicating from a place of comfort or convenience or avoidance. We're not having these deeper conversations. Couples who avoid each other, couples who don't have sex for months at a time and they don't even talk about it, couples who fight and fight over the same thing, but they're not asking the deeper question, what am I really trying to communicate here? So emotional ownership, you can't own what you don't understand. And it takes time to reflect and step back and really own what are we approaching this this way? Why am I doing it this way?

You know what's coming up for me, Dr. Skinners were talking about this. I'm kind of fixating for a moment on. On that what you just said, in that there's a choice, that there is that moment of choice about how will I respond. And as you were talking, I was thinking about that. You know, I have a big saying that's on one of my walls, and it says, in a world where you can be anything, be kind. And I think that the choice that we get to make that we can make is to decide, can I be kind to myself and to other people, that that is a choice that we can make. How do I respond to myself in this way? But I do think this comes through acknowledging whatever emotions come up. And also, as we've talked about previously, Gottman's idea of this positive sentiment override, which is, can I look at my partner or spouse through a lens of kindness, through a lens of compassion, through a lens of they're probably doing the best that they could. As you explained with your situation with your wife, she was stuck in a chair with who knows what in her hair and how many people around her. That was never her intention to not be there for you and for you to not see your client. But boy, we sure jump so quickly to worst case scenario thinking, catastrophizing. When we pull it back and say we have a choice, how do we be kind to ourselves? The way that we see ourselves, the way that we honor the emotions that come up, we can say, you know, I remember I had a client, my very first, like, individual client. Just in grad school, I had to have an individual client. I'd been doing a lot of group work, and I'll never forget this client talking to me about how she would call herself names. She'd go through her day and she'd say, oh, I'm so stupid. Oh, I'm so dumb. How could I do that? And she'd call herself names. And that just really stuck with me. We get to make choices about our emotions, but also, I think part of that is our language that we're using and looking and saying, is there a kind way that I can look at myself and others as I'm allowing the emotions to be there? I'm not bad for having an emotion, but can I look with kindness at myself as I allow the emotion to come through?

Marianne, let me shift just a little bit here for a second. The opposite of emotional ownership is the shifting of emotions.

Yeah, Same word about that.

Blaming, accusing. So when I shift that, I take it away from my ownership into you. Right. And you're late, and so I am triggered. So that shifts that to you. Yes, you're. You're late. What did it do to me? Now? Two versions here. One, again, I can respond, as you said, hot. I can come in hot with that because I am triggered. But what if the alternative was, you know, when you were acting out and you came home late and I didn't know it, I still had a feeling inside of me. And now when you come home late, I still am triggered that same way. And it's hard for me. It's hard for me to interact with you. Part of me wants to rip your head off and yell, and part of me wants to scream, and part of me wants to say, I just can't do this anymore. I'm sharing that because that's what I experience. When you don't reach out, you don't call, you don't tell me where you're at. It triggers everything inside of me. That communication is using a different response because I've worked through my emotions. Now imagine the alternative response. How is the person late going to respond? A shame response. Marianne, look, I told you, there's times I'm just not going to be able to call you. That's shifting responsibility again. Right. Even with the warmth of that response, then that's going to tick me off.

It's justifying it. It's minimizing it or even when. And I think you can even push that more into some gaslighting. Like, you always do this. You always get so upset and why. This isn't a big deal. I don't know why you're making it such a big deal.

So now, even in that warm response of this is what it's doing to me, emotional ownership, a partner who's not ready is going to continue to shift that blame, shift that responsibility. You made me. You. You. Right. Minimizing it. It's not that big of a deal. That's not emotional ownership. That's shifting the responsibility. If I'm going to own that, wow, when I was hurting, that makes sense to me. And I feel ashamed that I did that. Now that's emotional ownership. I hurt you, and you're feeling that way because of my actions. Hurt you. I scared you. You're afraid. So, of course, when I'm late, that makes sense to me, that emotional ownership.

I love the example that you use because that is the format that I use with my clients for creating boundaries and for making healthy requests. So when this happens, I feel or I felt X, Y, Z. And what I need is, would you please be willing to. So that whole scenario, would you be willing to give me a call and let me know that you're going to be late or send me a text? That is like, the perfect place to be able to also step in and say, I have a need and this is a place to build trust and have my emotional needs met and bring this up partly. Also, as you were talking, I was just thinking about something a client had recently shared with me where they'd say they'd share an emotion and their partner would say, well, that's on you.

Hmm.

Yes, my client's emotions are on my client. But when my client is reaching out, sharing with their partner, this is an attempt. This is a bid for connection, as John Gottman calls it. I'm reaching out to you saying, here's what's going on with me, and I have that once again, that choice to be able to hear and be with you, or to raise up my defenses and batten down my hatches and get ready for the battle.

So what's interesting about that statement, I want to break that down, because that statement is probably 100% true. Right. It's on you.

Right.

How I respond to that is surely on me, but it's so ineffective for countless reasons. There's no validation, there's no warmth. There's shifting of it. That's on you. So if. Yeah, if you feel that way, that's up to you. You can choose to feel that way. But see, what that's not doing is that's not relational. That's personal. I'm basically saying, you take ownership of you, I'll take ownership of me, and my actions don't really matter. Shouldn't matter to you. You're right. If you continue to choose that, then I'm going to choose not to connect. So if you're. You're right, I can respond. But my natural defense there, Marianne, is, yeah, it's on me. And because of that, I'm going to choose to not interact or I'm not going to choose to communicate. I'm not going to choose to bond with you. I have that choice. Yes, you're right. So it is on me, and this is how I'm going to respond. Is that relational?

This is the challenge. Because then one of the partners says, well, I'm learning that I can't turn to my partner when I'm in pain. And so we start creating this chasm or this gap that just gets bigger and bigger and bigger. Why would I even turn to my partner anymore? And then we've got a lot of disconnection. And then, yeah, my clients are saying, like, I don't even want to stay in this relationship. I'm miserable. I'm lonely. Yes. Because I can't turn to my partner. I can't trust that they can be with me. And my emotions, if I internalize that.

Then what's happening to me is I'm losing my internal voice. If that's true, how do I want to respond to that? And as you said, I might pull back. I'm not going to trust you. I'm not going to reach out. Because what I learned from you is I can't turn to you in my concern or my fear or my worry. And so that shuts down a reciprocity of connection. It makes it one directional. You go figure yourself out. Okay. If I go figure myself out, I guarantee you, in that context, we're not going to connect, and I'm not going to feel safe. Why aren't you connecting with me? Why aren't you having sex with me? Why won't you communicate with me? Well, you told me to go figure it out. You told me it's on me. Okay, I figured it out. I don't want to connect with you. That's the outcome of that conversation.

And this gets tricky because I do tell my clients, yep, you are responsible for taking care of your emotions. You're not. Your job is not to take care of your spouse's emotions, because you can't. And, you know, if a. If a car runs over my foot, it's going to hurt. And I want to say to my partner, oh, my goodness, I'm in so much pain. Does my partner feel my pain? No. Barefoot, didn't get run over. But can they be with me? Can they sit with me? Can they hold space for me to have my emotions? I have my emotions. I have my pain. And I want a partner that I can turn to, that can sit with me, that can be relational with me, and that can hear and allow me to. And help me to honor the pain that I'm experiencing.

And if you just said what you just said in that situation as a response to, well, that's on you. You're. Then this is the kind of marriage I want. I don't know if you want that kind of a marriage, but that's the kind of marriage I want. And then. Then now we have it, you know, oh, you're being critical of me. You're right. And then we could get into that blame game. That's never going to lead to intimacy. So if I came from that space of I would like to have this kind of a marriage, that's the kind of marriage I want to have. Now we get to have a real conversation. Are you. Is that the kind of marriage you want? See, that's the kind of conversations I think we're so afraid of. Marianne, most of the couples listening to this understand our dialogue today because they've been through it. That's my belief. Because we, as we've gone through therapy, we see these dialogues all the time. We're trying to point them out to you, our listeners, so you understand the pattern has to change for deeper intimacy. You can't have intimacy when you continue to not own your own emotions, shift the blame and responsibility, and then expect somehow we're going to have a connection. It doesn't work that way.

So I'm going to take your role today. We're going to see how I do. Okay, what are some tangible things I can do? What can I take from this to start practicing? Because I'm hearing this going like, okay, yes, you just nailed it. These are challenges in my relationship. Now. What do I do with that? I think the first thing that I would say to our listeners and viewers is, you've got to stop and say, hold on. What can I do? You can't change your partner. That's not your job, but you can stop and say, okay, what do I need to do to get honest with myself and to get honest with my emotions and maybe even to do a self evaluation. How am I showing up? How am I using these concrete blanket, always you. Am I blaming? Am I blame shifting? And really also looking at what is it that I want and where are the gaps? What am I missing? So fill in the blanks here for me, Dr. Skinner. What do you want to add to that?

Yeah, so I think first we have to talk about what you just said, a really important phrase, emotional, that ownership. But. But there's something deep here. What am I feeling? If I can't be honest with myself, then I'm going to continue to find fault, blame elsewhere in every circumstance. If I'm not, if I'm shifting outward my energy and putting responsibility and blame everywhere. True, you may have hurt me. My response to that, I still have to own it. I can shift all the energy outward. But unless I'm like, how am I going to respond to this? And I often ask my clients if they've been betrayed. Why are you staying in this relationship? What's driving you into this? You have to understand your. Why your own self, your own emotions, that. That is so incredibly important. Because if you are finding yourself, you're not understanding your own self well enough. So the energy out, anger, frustration, being ticked off, blame, accusation, putting out that kind of energy, what are you really communicating? I don't want to feel what I'm feeling.

Right. Because this is all inside. And so this is, as we're saying, you've got to feel that. This means I have to slow down and I have to notice what's going on in my body. And I've got to give myself time to feel whatever that emotion is, to recognize it, to allow myself to discover it, to feel it and to sit with it, to not run away from it, but to step into the emotion, giving myself permission to feel it, which is terrifying for a lot of people.

So this. Marianne, we could go way deeper on this. This is really the beginning of where I go with, in this, with couples work, in therapy of really owning it. So this is a beginning part, but we invite you, our listeners, to really look into self and for this emotional ownership so you can be more effective and more intimate in your relationships. You can't be intimate when you don't understand yourself well enough. You can't do it. Everything will feel like a facade or you'll feel like a fraud.

So I think my wrapping up thoughts with this, Dr. Skinner are once again reiterating that be kind. You have a choice. There are a lot of choices we've been talking about today. I'll invite you to choose kindness to yourself and to others, and to choose to slow down and to give yourself space and grace to feel whatever it is that's going on for you.

And on a deeper level, if you don't know what you feel, if you're afraid of your own feelings, if you're afraid of your own emotions, if you're embarrassed by your own emotions, if you're ashamed of some of the feelings that you have, and if you feel like your emotions are out of control, that's really where therapy is going to be helpful, is really helping you understand yourself well enough and why you're communicating what you're feeling. That's a deeper work, and it really is valuable when it's done. All right, to our listeners, thank you so much for joining us today. We invite you to share this podcast with others. Our listenership is growing. In the next few weeks, Marianne, we're going to hit 50,000 downloads and we'll also hit our hundredth podcast. So we're grateful for you, our listeners. You make our time and effort worth it. And so we are really grateful for you. And if you have not yet signed up for the Human Intimacy Conference, the second annual, we encourage you to do so. We're going to have a link below and we have a coupon, 50% off that will be available to you to the end of December 2025. And we invite you to join us for a very meaningful conference with incredible experts who can help you deal with individual trauma, help you overcome unwanted sexual behaviors, and help improve your relationship. Marianne, thank you very much.

Thanks, Dr. Skinner.