Empathy in Action: A Path to Deeper Relationship Bonds (Episode #27)

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There's something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh.

Something's around. Welcome to the human intimacy podcast, Dr. Kevin Skinner with my friend and colleague, Marianne Michaelis. Marianne, how are you doing?

I am doing great. Once again, so happy to be here. Thank you.

Oh, I'm glad to have. Glad to have you with me. It's always fun. We always have meaningful conversations and, and today we're going to be talking about a topic that I would say that if we could help society develop empathy, which we're going to be talking about, if we could help society develop this, our entire culture would change. Yeah, change for the better. And so why don't we just start off by defining it? Because again, I want to make sure that we're all on the same page. How do we define empathy? And then how does it influence our relationships? How does it influence how we interact with each other? And really that's one of our goals today. So Marianne, how would you define it? How would you define empathy in relationships?

I think I'd look at two different definitions or two different ways to look at it. The first, I automatically go Back to my 10th grade honors English class where we talked about Greek and Latin roots. And so looking at it, I'd want to just say, how do we break down this word? And m is with or in and path is feeling. And so if I were looking at empathy from that perspective, I'd be looking at it as the way that we connect with other people with what they're feeling.

That really interesting concept that being in it with somebody. Much like compassion, the commas with as well. Yeah, right. So empathy and compassion, being with somebody in an experience, in their emotions in their suffering with compassion. But. But the capacity to have empathy. Really, It's a skill.

Yeah. It's a muscle that we have to learn how to use. It's not something we're automatically born with. I know Oftentimes young children or babies, if one of them cries, we have what's called the sympathetic crying, where the other one will begin to cry as well. I don't know why I'm crying, but that guy's crying, so I probably better cry too.

Having had twins. I think it's true. Yeah. So Ben there. Done that. But. But let's. Let's go a little bit deeper. You said there was another definition.

The second way that I usually look at this in a clinical space when I'm working with clients is the ability to hold what somebody else is feeling. So when somebody else is having deep pain, it's the ability to be able to sit with them. It means I don't run away, means I don't shut down. It means I can just sit with them and honor what they're going through. I don't feel exactly what they're feeling, but I can connect with what I have felt myself. So if you're grieving or you're sad, I can connect to the grief and sadness I've had in my life. And I can. I can get pretty close in some way, shape or form to what you're.

Feeling in an effort to feel what you're feeling. I'm trying to think of what it's like for you now. One of the reasons why we have chosen this topic today as therapists, one of the core things that we find in relationships, that there are problems, struggling, marital issues. I often hear things like, my partner just doesn't feel empathy. They don't understand what I'm going through. That's probably the more common one I hear. They don't understand what I'm going through. So our hope today in this podcast is really to introduce how we can enhance that muscle, that empathy muscle, and really apply it in our relationships. And so we want to follow and discuss a model that has been taught to us by Carol Jurgens and Sheets. She has a great model of really helping with this, and I would like to really let you introduce how she introduces that model. And then if there's any other things you'd like to say about empathy, before.

We jump into it, I would love to share. Carol Jurgensen Sheets, as a model that she uses, she shares. It's called abr. The tool that she uses, it comes from her book Help them heal. And. And it is looking at A is acknowledging, V is validating, and R is reassuring. So when I am with my partner or anyone and I'm working on practicing this empathy model, I'm looking at acknowledging. Absolutely, I can see that you're in pain right now. I just want to acknowledge where they're at, acknowledge what I'm seeing, acknowledge what I'm hearing, acknowledge that they're dysregulated or they're hurting or whatever is going on for them. Just acknowledging their state.

Yeah, and let's. Let's push pause on that one for a second, because when we're in conflict, and this is where I see people say, I screw that. I don't. I don't want to acknowledge what you're feeling because I don't agree or I don't like what you've said. And so even this acknowledgment requires a different part of the brain, because instead of it feeling so personal and. And this is. I. I know many of our listeners, when they're in conflict, the brain gets hijacked and. And we become flooded. And in those moments, to acknowledge what someone else is saying or doing, it's really not an easy thing to do.

No, it's not. We had. We had. Probably about a year ago, we had some friends over for a meal, and we started talking about a political topic that was heated, and there were a lot of different opinions on around the table, and a couple people were really just kind of going head to head, and it started to feel really divided. And one of the people who was there just said, wow, I can see you really must have some experience with this. You must have a reason for feeling this way. And, boy, it was amazing. I just saw the whole room just diffuse, and I just thought, wow, how masterful. What a. What a gift to be able to step back and objectively look and say what's going on and just acknowledge what's happening in that moment in the room.

And that's it. And that's a great starting point to acknowledge it. Getting ourselves into that mindset. Right. I mean, you think about how your friend was observing this intensity and the capacity in that moment. You must. Right. Really? This is really important to you. Now, again, that's just. It seems a little simple thing, but in the heat of a battle, it's not simple.

No, because that's. We're engaged and we're digging in our heels, and we want to be right or we want to argue for that. And it is really tricky to Slow down and take a deep breath and step back up and zoom out and look and say, what's going on? Can I just be noticing what's happening even to my body and what's happening here in this present moment?

So I want to maybe give our listeners some specific ways to help your brain acknowledge what others are feeling. Right. So I want to go a little bit deeper here for a second. And the first way that we actually do it is actually through our own awareness. Right. You, you can't acknowledge someone else's pain if you don't understand yourself first. Let me give an example of that. I was working with some individuals. They were administrators, superintendents of different schools, but this one in particular, they'd had a really tragic situation happen in their school. And one of the first things that we talk about in that kind of a training is you have to pause and reflect of what's happening inside of you. Because if we are just responding to other people and we're misattuned to self, it's really hard to find where other people are because we don't even know where we are. So it's kind of like when we're on the airplane and they get up and they do the announcements and they always say this, right. Make sure if there's an emergency, you put an oxygen mask on yourself first. This is the first thing I need to be aware of my own emotions as I acknowledge other people's emotions. And I think that step can be overlooked here because I don't know how to acknowledge someone else or be aware of somebody else if I'm misattuned to self.

That makes so much sense. Because if, if you are reacting not because you're consciously trying to, but because your brain picks up a this is dangerous alert and gives you that signal, your body shifts into fight, flight, or freeze, and you are just trying to self protect. You're not thinking about anything else that's. That's going on.

Yeah. So from a biological perspective, we talk about it from the, the amygdala is the emotional center of the brain. It really recognizes fear. And, and if I'm recognizing your, your intensity again, the amygdala, the, the emotional part of the brain says, hey, you got to protect here. Which is why even in the construct of empathy, we can get overwhelmed with other people's pain. And, and the shift from that kind of emotional intensity into the capacity to say, oh, this person's having a hard time, they're struggling. And I, and I need to see that that is not A subtle shift. That is one you have to practice and practice so you don't get overwhelmed by other people's emotions, or you'll get so overwhelmed that you'll go into fight or flight mode.

Yeah. When I. When I map this out with my clients, I often see that one sees their partner shift into some emotions, and rather than being able to follow them there with that, they immediately go to shame. Crap, I screwed up again. I got it wrong. I can't do anything right. And so that's where they just get sucked into their own shame vortex. And they. That's. That's where the empathy breaks down.

That's right. And so. And so again, if we're going to acknowledge other people's emotions again, that's why I say we have to begin with that internalized self, being aware, self aware. That's part one. The second part is once you have that insight, to act consistent with your insight. Because in that moment, I might want them to understand that my pain. I might want them to feel what I'm feeling before I actually am able to respond to them. They. They're like, wait, wait, I need you to understand what I'm feeling. Healthy communication is the ability to, in that moment, to say, I'm going to put off them understanding where I'm coming from, because this is really emotional for them. This. They. This matters to them. Let me make sure that they feel.

Understood and to make sure they feel understood. Just like you're saying, we have to understand ourselves and anytime we're doing trauma work, but I think this applies across the board. We have to get to know what our body does physiologically. So I learn, I have learned. And even right now, I can feel it. Just when we're talking about it, I can feel my right cheek gets flushed, and my neck usually gets pretty flushed. When I have. When I'm even talking about shame, that's my body's response. And so if I can notice, ooh, there's a pit in the bottom of my stomach, that's usually fear or anxiety for me. Or if I can feel that flush showing up, anytime I feel that flush coming on my body, I can go, oh, okay, I haven't thought about it yet. I'm not sure what's going on, but my body's giving me a signal so I can slow down and start saying, oh, I may be dealing with some shame or some fear, some anxiety here, but I've got to tune into my body to know what my body's telling me so that I can move through it so that I can get there with my partner.

Yeah, yeah. Awesome, awesome, awesome. I, I want to emphasize one other part here. Once I, I, I said we need to act upon that. The, our ability to act in those really important moments is also something that we learn. It's again, that is not something that comes easy to most of us. So in that moment, saying you, obviously this matters to you, this is important to you. And, and, and again, regardless of the circumstance, if you want to defuse a situation, go in with this idea of, I'm going to acknowledge, I'm going to be aware of what they're experiencing because I'm in a place where I can do that. So first step, you talked about it, right? We want to do a first step of acknowledging what's, what is the V.

So the V that we're working on stands for validate. So with the. I'm acknowledging that you are not feeling very well. I acknowledge that you're upset right now. I can acknowledge that you're triggered right now. And the V, this validating and it makes sense. And I can understand I've broken your trust and you have no reason to trust me right now. And it makes all the sense in the world that you would be hurt right now and that you would be distrustful. Just really validating the experience that the other person has. And that does take getting out of myself to go over there and see the world through their eyes and go, yeah, this makes sense why you're hurt or upset right now.

Yeah. And so again, this is where I want to break it down, because in this moment, I don't want to validate. I don't think I'm emotionally in a place where I can validate because, you know, maybe it's your emotional intensity. Maybe there's something that's being triggered from my past or maybe the past interactions between the two of us. And in that moment, to validate what someone else is feeling, what they're thinking, maybe I don't even agree with what they're saying or their emotions. That's a skill too.

And I interject, maybe I don't want to because I see how you're reacting and I don't like it. And I, and you're attacking me. And so I don't want to validate what you're saying, how I got it wrong, how I screwed up, how I, I'm a default for everything or whatever it is that you're feeling. I may feel a little bit of resentment even about wanting to validate how you're feeling.

So, so, yeah, let's talk about that then. What, what, what do we do when we don't want to? Right. Because if we play down that path, if I don't want to, then I'm going to get angry. I'm going to do something that will probably be unhealthy for the relationship. I might raise my voice, I might accuse you, or if you're, you're complaining too much, you're, you're always criticizing me. And, and so I don't want to validate where you're coming from, even though you may be right. Right. Because in that moment, I'm in the fight mode. And that's something that we have to be aware of. See, healthy relationships require us in moments where we're not relationship ready. A term I typically use. I'm not ready for the relationship right now to communicate and connect. I'm not in that emotional space. The mature people, those, those who do it well in those moments, recognize it and say, I'm not in a good space right now. I need a timeout. I need a break. And what's interesting is when people are taught that. We did a podcast a few weeks ago with Dr. Jason Whiting talking about how we deceive ourselves in these crucial moments. And even there, he said, if you look at the research, when we teach people how in those moments to take a time out, to step back, they can do it. So in order for us to have healthy relationships, if I'm not able to validate what my partner's feeling, at least be aware of what they're experiencing and validate that, yes, they are feeling that, then I need to take a time out and go figure out why not.

And you and I may have talked about this in the past, but I think in this moment, it is so important. So I just want to reiterate it over and over and over again that, that this is in that moment when we say, I need to take a break, boy, that can hit rejection and abandonment triggers. And so having the conversation beforehand, having a code word, having something so that my partner knows that, one, I am taking care of myself and I'm not rejecting them. I'm not shutting them down. I'm not avoiding. I'm just going to re. Regulate myself. And two, we have to come back to it. We heal through rupture and repair. And if I say, oh, I need to go regulate, and then we never come back, that just further deepens the abandonment that we may be dealing with.

I saw this so much in the Past that, one of the things I did is I created what's called seven rules for fighting. In other words, you know, when you're fighting, what, what's not going well. And I walked through seven specific rules. I'll leave it in the show notes to our listeners. If you want to go, you can click on that so you can watch those. But one of the core things that we are talking about here is the ability in that elevated moment to pause, to take a timeout. And that timeout, if it doesn't have a follow up to say let's talk about this, you know, in 30 minutes or let's, you know, sleep on it and let's come back to it tomorrow. If we don't do that, we're really invalidating our partner and the pain and the problem that we're experiencing. And then we get more resentment and we get into that vicious cycle. Absolutely hurts the relationship. So another critical part here is if you can't validate your partner, I really suggest you pause and, and see what are they experiencing? Just ask yourself the question. And if you don't know, go get more data either in your own mind mental bank or go ask, help me understand what you're experiencing.

As you were talking about that, that stepping away and the not coming back. I know you and I have talked about the Zeigarnic effect. I don't know if we've talked about it here. Zeigarnic effect is leaving something open and then our mind is just wanting to spend so much time and energy trying to close it and resolve it. And so if we don't have that completion or that resolution, we really get stuck with kind of like that gaping wound that just struggles to heal.

Yeah, so we've talked about the Zygarnic effect in different places. If you're, if you're interested in learning more. There's just a real simple concept. Up to 90% of the things that you and I think about are unresolved issues. And that's in our own lives and in our relationship. So if something is unresolved in our relationship and we can't resolve a problem conflict, then we're going to mentally rehearse that. Which means that we're more likely in the same scenario in the future. It's going to blow up a lot more intensely because of the situation where it was not resolved. And now it comes back and my mind goes, oh yeah, and that wasn't solved. And all of a sudden I'm up hijacked. So the Zeigarnic Effect, if you want to learn more about it. I did an entire webinar on that and it's actually in the Human Intimacy webinar series. It's free. You can go to human intimacy.com, look for free courses. You'll see the Human Intimacy webinar series and, and that I. I've actually put that zygonic effect webinar in there. So for our listeners, if you would like more resources and learning about the zygonic effect, that's how you could do it.

And it's such a fantastic concept, I think, or principle to understand that this is what's happening to us. Our brain is spending, like you said, that 90%. That's a huge amount of time and mental energy and resources that it is using, trying to resolve things for us.

And I think that prevents us from having empathy when we have unresolved issues between us. Again, I think we get so focused on the pain that it's really hard for me to validate, going back to the ABR model. Right. It's really hard for me to validate when I have so much internalized resentment. And we have it for multiple reasons, but more often than not, it's because we haven't resolved the issues that are at hand.

Yeah. Before we go on to the R, I just want to just back up just a little bit, zoom out and really emphasize that when we are stepping in and saying, hey, this is a tool I'm going to use right now because I can see my partner or this other person is having some strong emotions. It is really all about them. My stuff, I do need to put what I call in the back pocket. I just need to zip up and say, this isn't really about me right now. This is about me trying to be present, to hear and see and feel and think what's going on for them. And it's tricky because as we've been talking about, our own stuff can get in the way. But just as the concept or principle, we are really trying to make this other outward rather than our inward.

And really what one of the core challenges we have here is we want to be understood. We want people to understand our pain, our situation. Maybe we just think they don't get us. They really, they aren't listening. And so we say it in a thousand different ways. Are you listening to me? Are you. Are you really trying? Do you understand? And maybe they don't, but more often than not. I was just talking with somebody this week and I, I paused our conversation. I said, what do you think your partner was feeling in that situation? And they hesitated and they said, I don't know. And so I said, well, what would happen if you would have asked a question? I'm not sure what you're experiencing right now. Could you share that with me? How do you think that would have influenced your interaction? And this person said, I'm embarrassed because I didn't. I didn't even think about that. I said, well, that's common. But in those kind of moments, to ask the question, I wonder what they're experiencing. That is a higher level of thinking. And in relationships, it is one of the fundamental skills.

I. And. And I would add to that as you're. As you were saying that. What came to my mind is I will often have clients who maybe repeat, kind of. They talk about the same trauma or the same theme. And when I start noticing that, for me, it's a cue to slow down. And let's just really unpack that, because there's something there that they still need to say that hasn't been resolved. And a lot of times we'll find situations where we repeat it and repeat it and repeat it. And that's a really good cue that there is a lot here. Slow down and pay attention.

I love that if something keeps coming up, it's because it hasn't been understood or heard. Heard and understood. Right. And really validated.

There we go. Validated. Validated.

Yeah. Why don't we move on to this then?

Yeah. So our final one is the R, and that's the reassure. So if I have betrayed my partner, I need to reassure my partner. I acknowledge your pain. It makes every. It makes so much sense that you have this pain. And I want to reassure you that I'm still here. I want to reassure you that I am working really hard and that I care about you and that I want this relationship. Sometimes my clients will even say, and I can reassure you that I'm still going to get it wrong and I'm still going to screw up, but I'm going to keep trying. I'm going to keep working.

Yeah. So let's go off of this, because I want to. Again, I break these things down really granularly because it matters to me personally, because we get into this concept of reassurance. But there are times where our clients don't want to reassure. They're not in a mindset where they're like, I don't. Am I committed? I don't even know. Because there's things between us that are not resolved. And it's really hard for me to reassure you when we're in high. We've been in high conflict, and maybe you've done some things that have really hurt me. You've betrayed me in this case, or, you know, in some situations, you've criticized me. Maybe in. In. Not only in private, but in public, you've criticized me. And I. I just don't have that desire. And in those moments, we have to check ourselves and really explore, because what if I can't reassure?

Wow, that is such a good. I'm so glad that you went there because that's. There's like a gap there, right? There's a gap between me saying, I'm here for you and I want to hold your pain and I want to be with you. But like, you're saying, what if I don't like you right now? What if I'm not sure about the future? And how do we reassure in that space?

Friend of mine taught me a very good lesson here. Can I be authentic and honest with you and still show you that I love you or tell you that I love you? And he used to do this role play. His name was Ken Patey. And he said, I want to make you guys a bet. I'm gonna. I'm gonna tell my daughter. And we were. He was doing a role play. I'm gonna tell my daughter that I'm. I'm having a hard time loving her. That really love is hard for me right now. And I'm gonna draw her closer to me at the same time. Do you think I can do that? That was his. That was his bet. And everyone's like, I don't. You're gonna tell me you don't love him and you're going to draw him closer at the same time. I don't think it can be done. So he said, okay, I'll. I'll take the bet. And so in this conversation, he had the. Just a situation. The situation. The daughter was coming home late from a date, and she was late. And he said, okay, so she's coming in late. And he told the person who is coming home as a teenager, I'm going to tell you that I don't love you. And your role is to say, and you never have. And when you say, I never have, I'm going to actually draw her closer to me.

I'm excited to hear this, Dr. Skinner.

Yeah, it's fascinating because I watch it. I have had over and over, I watched him do this. And because it's principle based, and so they're role playing. And the daughter comes in, hey, you're late. And, you know, you're running late. You're keeping me up late at night. And the daughter says, oh, yeah, you don't even care about me, dad. And he says, you know, you're actually right. Over the past few weeks, I've really had a hard time feeling love for you, but I want to because I miss being with you. Notice it. It was an authentic truth. She had probably picked up that he was struggling in the relationship. He was truthful. If he had said. If you think about it, if he had said, oh, of course I love you, do you think she would have believed him in that moment?

No way. No. And I'm guessing that she was even distancing, staying out later, not caring as much, because she was feeding off of that distance that she was feeling as well.

Exactly. And so in that response, I have had a hard time feeling love. That authenticity is actually one of the most powerful things, because it was truth, and she knew it and he knew it. But the next step is just as important. But I want to. That. That's a powerful want. I want to figure this out. I want a connection, the want.

And that want is his deep vulnerability, isn't it? That's him absolutely into here's what I want, and laying himself open because she can say, I don't want that, or whatever she could respond to, but that is deep vulnerability right there.

And that is a mature conversation. Right my. And I. I rolled it. Play this with the people I work with, you know, can you be authentic with this emotion? I'm scared because love is dying inside of me. And if we don't create change, I'm scared because I want to connect with you. I want this marriage to work. I'm scared because these feelings are dying inside of me. Doing it before it's dead.

Yeah.

Doing it before it's dead.

And that's the intent. Here's my intent, here's what I want, and here's my vulnerability mixed together.

That's right. Right. So. So again, I want to go back to this validation. Notice that when he says I want that, that's the validating statement. He was authentic. I'm having a hard time feeling love for you. I'm having a hard time showing love to you. But I want to because I care about us. I care about this relationship.

One of the things as you're talking about that. That. That I'm noticing is that the. The gift that you give yourself in that space of not betraying yourself. So this is me being able to show up really authentically about where I'm at while I'm still reassuring you about where I am. That is the deep vulnerability. That is where we attach. But, boy, we often get into trouble when we're, as we talked about earlier, giving that lip service, and it feels inauthentic to the person receiving it, and it's inauthentic to ourselves, and it doesn't really get us anywhere.

And a few hundred examples of that we've heard over and over and over again is, you know, the people who've hurt their spouse and say, but. But I love you.

Yeah, sure. Doesn't feel like love.

Right. And. But I say it because that's how our culture has created this space where love is meaningless. It's like. It's like giving out, you know, it's like inflation. Love, love, love, love, love. What does it really mean? I think it's actually a deeper love when I say I'm having a hard time with those feelings right now, but I want to. That gets me into this space where you can actually feel my genuineness. I want this. And so every time I saw this guy, Ken Pate, do it, every time he said, bring it up, Bring up the volume, bring up the intensity. Every time the person melted because it was authentic. That's who he was as a person.

And what you're talking about there, I'm hearing you talking about the rupture for the repair. We can't have the repair if we don't have the rupture. The rupture comes from us being authentic and saying, here's how I'm really feeling. Here's the hurt, here's the pain. Letting it be seen. Here's what I want. And then we can do repair, begin to repair.

Yeah. And. And that statement. I'm scared or I'm worried. You know, the way I'm feeling, my. My own feelings are making me anxious again. I. It takes a lot of openness and vulnerability to go into that space. But I'm afraid that far too many couples are waiting way too long for those kinds of conversations. And so we've been to the attorneys. We've, you know, we've been to everybody else except for our partner, talking about our genuine feelings because we don't know how to. How they're going to receive it, or maybe they won't receive it well, and we don't want to fight with them.

Yeah. Can I just. As we're kind of looking at wrapping this up a little bit Some of the thoughts that come to my mind are part of this is also just about the ownership and taking responsibility for where we've been. And as we, as things escalate, oftentimes we just want our partner to be able to see and hear our pain. And when we do that, that is when we do or when we hear that or receive that, that is when we de escalate. I had a client who, I may have shared this with you previously, but she was telling me about a situation and I was like, let's talk about abr. You know, is your husband doing these things? And she just said, I hate it when he does that because then I can't fight. There's nothing left for me to fight with because it just diffuses when we feel seen and heard.

That's right. So let's. Let's maybe tie this up. The A stands for acknowledge.

Acknowledging where the other person's at.

All right, Vivi.

We're validating. We're validating the emotions that they're feeling, that they have every right. It's normal that anybody else in that situation would probably feel the same way.

And then they are reassuring.

I'm reassuring you that even if I don't like you right now, I want to like you. Maybe not those exact words, but.

But the reassurance is we'll. We don't know the answers right now, but we'll find solutions. We'll come back to it because our relationship matters now. Interestingly enough, you know, we. We started this off with empathy and how to do this. This model is a model of empathy. It really allows us to be with another person, walking in their shoes, feeling what they're feeling. That's a skill that, as we learn, we become better in all of our relationships.

So you and I have been talking a lot about intimate relationship, but I'm wondering, where else do you see this working really well?

I think there's probably two specific areas when couples get flooded. And I'm just going to be just general here. We know that the brain really goes into the fight or flight mode. So having a model in place in advance for difficult conversations is a powerful thing. Am I using something like a VR, right? Am I in this moment able to emotionally step back and ask, what's happening here? What's happening here? If I. If I can do that, if I can step back, I'm going to be better in most of my communication, most of my relationships. So again, having a model in place, what I call mental rehearsal, before we actually get into a situation is very powerful. The second place that it really influences is actually us, our confidence level. Because I am much more confident when I know that I can go into a situation and I can hear and I can listen and I don't have to be enmeshed in this conflict and fighting. So it actually helps me in my confidence. So that's where I see it's most effective because I could use this model with any conflict with anybody and be confident that we would be able to solve a problem or at least understand each other.

And as you were talking about that, I was thinking about teenagers that are sometimes so hard. And I love that example used earlier because it was with a teenager and a, and a parent, not even specifically with. With spouses or partners.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right, so I want to conclude with just a question, and this is for our listening audience. I'm inviting you. I typically been doing this in some of the podcasts recently is I've been asking you to do a self reflection. How good are you at showing empathy in your most important relationships? Do a self evaluation for a second. Give yourself a score. A seven. You're doing outstanding. A zero. You're really struggling. Do a self evaluation of your level of empathy in your most important relationships. Are you aware of what your partner's feeling? Do you care what they're feeling? Are you aware and attuned to what they're feeling? Just do a self evaluation. If you're struggling, I would encourage you to get to work because in this life, our relationships are only as good as we make them. All right, Marianne, your final thoughts today?

My final thoughts. I love that self assessment that you gave as you were sharing that. I. I'm also thinking that sometimes it's easier to be empathetic towards others that aren't our close, our closest relationships. And so looking, really looking at that like, where's my. Where is. How am I doing with my closest relationships versus my not so important relationships? My final thought for this would be to invite our audience to actually look at how they are doing with acknowledging, validating and reassuring themselves, even with their self empathy. Because we often, we've been talking today really about these tools and utilizing these principles for other people, but also acknowledging where we're at with our own emotions. Validating. Oh, it's, oh, it's okay that you feel that way. It makes sense that you would feel that way. So this is a self compassion probably bringing into it and reassuring. Okay, you can do better. You, it's okay that you feel that way and you keep on going, however, whatever the words are that you need. But looking at also applying this model not just to our external relationships, but I'd love to invite our listeners to apply it to our internal relationship, even with ourselves as well.

Awesome. Awesome. All right. Thank you so much, Marianne, for your time today. And we are grateful to you, our listeners, for taking the time to listen to today's podcast, the Human Intimacy Podcast. If you haven't been to the website human intimacy.com, may I encourage you to do so? Type in human intimacy.com, learn more where you can learn more about some of the services and opportunities that you have to increase your relationship skills and find the joy and happiness that you would desire in your relationships. Marianne, thank you so much for your time.

Thrilled to be here. Thank you so much.