Exploring Sexuality: Navigating the Line Between Healthy and Unhealthy Behaviors (Episode #22)

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But smile when you smile and laugh.

When you laugh something surround. Welcome to the Human intimacy podcast. I'm Dr. Kevin Skinner with my friend and colleague, Marianne Michaelis. Marianne, how are you today?

I'm pretty good, thank you. Glad to be here.

You know, we have, over the years, we've worked and we've done lunch and learns for many years now. One of the common themes that we talk about in our work is individuals who are struggling with sexuality in their relationship with, you know, a lot of people ask us the question, what is sex addiction? What is healthy sexual behavior? What is unhealthy sexual behavior? Because I can't tell the difference. So today in our podcast, we're really going to be discussing what is addictive sexuality and what is healthy sexuality. And I'd like to just get your initial thoughts, Marianne.

Well, my initial thoughts are I'm so grateful to have a place to have this conversation. I can't tell you how many clients, when we start to talk about this, when we start to talk about this, is what addictive sexuality or unhealthy sexuality looks like. This is what healthy looks like. I've had so many clients just burst into tears and say, why didn't anybody ever teach me this? Why isn't anybody talking about this? I had no idea. And so I'm really grateful to be able to have this place, to begin sharing this information with all of our.

Listeners today, you know, and our culture today. I think a lot of, there's a lot of hesitancy, to use the word, word, sex addiction, addictive sexuality. And I think part of it is because our sexuality, we normally, we're sexual beings. And so at what point does it Become excessive? And what point does it? Is it. Can it be too much? And there'd be people who would argue, absolutely not. It can't be too much. And yet here we are in our profession. We're talking with individuals whose lives have been destroyed because of their sexual behaviors. Their families have been destroyed. They don't have trust in their family. And if you ask those individuals if they would say that their sexual behaviors is compulsive or addictive, more often than not, when we ask the question, the answer is absolutely, how could it not be? So, Marianne, let's get started here. What, in general, would you say, the difference between healthy sexuality and addictive sexuality? How would you compare the two?

So, a couple of really simple ways to look and say, is this possibly addictive or is it not? We might want to look at, is it compulsive? Like, can I stop it? We want to look at the shame factors. Is this somebody that you tell your mom, you tell your mom about it? Is this something that you feel like goes against your own value system? And have you tried to stop it and haven't been able to stop it?

And let me add to that. Right, so if we're looking at actually addictive behaviors in and of themselves would say, how about withdrawals, irritability, restlessness? My mind is racing. If I can't. If I can't act out in a sexual way, then I begin to experience what we often refer to as withdrawal symptoms. Or perhaps it's, I need more and more of it. So I start taking risks that I previously would not have taken with my own sexuality. And those are typically what we would say is addictive symptoms. Now we add that to what you've said, and we're like, okay, that would be what we would refer to as addictive sexuality, where you are experiencing withdrawals. If you don't have it, you are irritable, you are grumpy, you've tried to stop when you can't. It's influencing many areas of your life and. And maybe you're not even aware of it until it's like, wow, what just happened?

Absolutely. And I, I would, you know, we're looking at, like, the healthy versus the non healthy. Just taking it back to that place, really. I think consent is really important and, like, the respect and connection. I often have clients tell me, well, my partner has a different sex drive than I do. There's. I just have a low sex drive. And what I really find when I'm working with betrayed part is if their spouse has some addictive behaviors with their sexuality. It's not that my clients, the partners, have low sex drive. It's that they want connection, they want healthy sex. And when it isn't healthy sex, they're not turned on, they're not aroused, they're not feeling connected, so they don't want to have sex. And then they blame themselves and say, there's something wrong with me because I'm not meeting his needs and because I don't have that drive that he does. But they're really wanting, connected, healthy interactions that are intimate.

So let's go back to maybe more specifics of healthy sexuality. You used words like connection.

Yeah, absolutely.

Feeling heard, feeling understood, participating. Being a part of this experience.

Yeah, absolutely. Usually eye contact, mutual consent, Feeling validated. Yeah. Being present. Both people there in that moment, in that space and time, attending each other.

And we work with individuals where there's been infidelity and sexual betrayal. And this is usually one of the more difficult elements after discovery down the road, they may be working on recovery, but reintegrating sexually after a partner has been betrayed is a whole, you know, this is a part of the conversation. We'll continue to have this over different podcasts and the services that we offer because it's such an important topic of learning how to have healthy sexuality. I often say, using David Snarch's work, he. He said something I think is absolutely fascinating. He said, sex is like a window into the rest of the relationship.

I love that.

And, and I really think it's indicative of what we see when, when we're sexually misaligned or we're not aligned. We see it influence every aspect of the relationship. And, and so I think it's really important for us today to talk about healthy sexuality versus what we would say, addictive or compulsive or out of control sexuality, whatever you want to call it. So let's break it down. What would you say? And let's just start with some healthy sexual behavior. What would you. Let's just start there. Marianne, what would you say? Healthy sexuality, number one.

The first word that comes to my mind is always connection and being present and the counter to that, disconnected in the head. What I mean by that is maybe acting out a fantasy in someone's mind. Well, their partner is there. So using someone but not being present.

There with them about my needs being met, but not being attuned or aware of your needs would be another. Another way to explore that or discuss that. And I think if I was to look at a specific cases that I've had. Over the years I've had many individuals say, you know, I, I am, you know, I've never really enjoyed sex because it's always about them and their needs. So I've had people who I've met, been in married for 20, 30 years and they've really never had an orgasm.

Yeah.

And you know, and part of that started off early and they really have never felt what I would say, sexually safe, to really open up and completely allow themselves to enjoy the experience. And, and after you have years and years and years of experience of that, you begin to feel like, I guess I, that that's just not in the cards for me.

Yeah, I think one of the phrases that I hear pretty often from my female betrayed clients is that that's my wifely duty. That's my duty as a wife. My duty is to be available for my husband sexually, to meet his sexual needs, which is not mutual. So going back to that initial question, when you said what, what. How would you define this? I think I would really want to add that mutuality onto this, that it's two people present, connecting.

All right, so let's look at the other side of that non connecting. It feels maybe selfish. It's not, it's not attuned or aware of your partner. And in that situation, if there's no connection, what's the alternative? If it's not connected, what would you say? That, how would you describe that?

The words that I use, if it's not connected, and these aren't maybe clinical terms, but the word that comes to my mind is, is using someone. It's maybe we might go to the word exploitative, that I'm exploiting someone because I'm using them for my sexual gratification without it being mutually beneficial or enjoyable or arousing connecting for them.

All right, so let's keep going because now you're talking about, if we're talking about maybe unhealthy sexuality, but there's a time in where we find individuals who, they've hired sex workers talking about exploitive sex. They've hired people for sexual, their needs. Sexual needs to be met, in some cases taken advantage of people because of the power differential in their relationships. And so we start to look at it from that version. And, and I'm, I'm, I'm going to assume that in your office you've seen individuals who've hired sex workers. And, and my question is, when they come to you, we're talking about healthy sexuality versus unhealthy sexuality. Do you think they see it as unhealthy sexuality, and if so, why?

I think that they see it as transactional. And I think that also when we're talking about sexual addiction, there's a lot of denial, there's a lot of minimization, and there's a lot of rationalization, justification around the behaviors. And usually my clients have a story or a reason why it's healthy for them. Well, my wife isn't available. My wife's not interested, whatever that is. Therefore, I need to get my needs met over here. In their mind, they might think that it's healthy, but that doesn't mean that it really is.

Well, and yet the individuals that have come to my office, as we start to explore that, I think it is part of it is the need, their perception of connection and maybe justifying the behavior. But sometimes it's even more than that. It's. They are. I'm going to use the word wanting to be in control, being able to tell somebody how they want their sexuality. Maybe my partner won't do certain sexual acts. And so my. My fantasy is that this. And so I live in a fantasy world. And. And this person, I can hire them to act out the fantasy that's been running through my mind. And so what I've found is individuals become fixated on a certain sexual act. And that's often one of the reasons why they are hiring somebody, is they want to be able to act out the fantasy of what they're longing for, what they want.

Absolutely. And I would take that even further, stepping into that space. Oftentimes I find clients who are reenacting trauma from their childhood, and they're trying to find a different outcome, but they're reenacting that same sexual experience that they had through some abuse or they're trying to find a voice.

You.

You started to allude to that. But maybe I don't feel like I have a voice, but with a sex worker, I get to call the shots. I get to have my voice completely and explore whatever I want or need to.

Yeah. And. And there's a term we typically use here with, you know, hiring sex workers. Part of it is il illicit sexual relationships where the sexual activity is deemed unacceptable or illegal by social or ethical or legal standards. Now, every culture may be this, but, you know, more often than not when I talk with individuals, they don't realize the risk they're taking with hiring a sex worker or going to a massage parlor and having sexual acts performed. And so they don't recognize, in some cases, you know, the risk that they're potentially taking. And yet when we've met with individuals, maybe they've sent thousands and thousands of dollars. And. And then if you've had somebody who has been caught in a sting like that, well, that, that's a whole different journey in and of itself. Because at that point they're waking up and realizing, wow, what I was doing was actually illegal. Didn't even realize it. And again, that that goes into the risk taking that you're not even aware of.

Yeah. And there's two parts of that that I love to comment on. First, I attended something with a National center on Sexual exploitation a little while ago and they, they talked about even taking the term sex worker or prostitute that we've often used and shifting that to sexually exploited individuals because what we're looking at. So there's that part of it. So it's never healthy to exploit another person. And most of the people who are being sexually exploited aren't there because they really want to be. It's a situation they get stuck in. So there's that part. But I also have clients who've come into my office, whether they were working with these sexually exploited individuals or their spouses were. And there's now an std. And now I have to deal with either telling my partner that they now have an STD that they're going to have for the rest of their life and that's going to impact their childbearing, that's going to impact even if they get divorced, that's going to impact all of their future sexuality. There's some really big ramifications that come with that. And so just looking at from that health pers, like healthy wise perspective, there's an awful lot that that carries with.

It, you know, and, and just a real quick summary, right on one side, we have this illicit sexually exploitative. In contrast with healthy sexuality, it has no victims, it has no exploitation. It doesn't require me to fear that I might have an std, because in healthy sexuality, there is that not only there no victims, there is a specific relationship that I'm bonded to this person. And when we start seeing couples in the reparative process and we start seeing them work through the building their awareness of how they got down the pathway of engaging in those behaviors. And as they start to come clean and as they start to come out of that, that I really see individuals, I call it waking up. And they're actually. Patrick Carnes used a phrase. They're in many situations, they abhor their former behaviors.

Oh, yeah.

And I think that that's the way that I've seen individuals as they come through the recovery process, as they begin to look back at themselves, often with a lot of shame and embarrassment, self disgust, self loathing. And as they start to come clean, I start to see their lights turning back on and that confidence returning. And in. In many ways, they. They recognize the difference between where they were sexually, what I would call it a sexual trance, in contrast with awakening and being attuned to their own. Own sexuality, not in a compulsive way, but in a way where they start to understand their own bodies and their need for connection.

Yeah. And as you're talking about that, having no victims, it really is that deepening of the relationship. This is where the intimacy happens. This is where deep bonding happens, when it's healthy, safe sexuality. Because this is where oxytocin is showing up. And we are having deep neurochemicals that are helping us to bond and Dr. That. So deep. This is my purpose, and I'm safe here.

Yeah. And what begins to happen is in the recovery process, they begin to operate within their own values.

Absolutely right.

They begin to establish their values. My expectations of what I'm going to do sexually and where my boundaries are. A conversation that you and I previously had, understanding who I am and what my core values are, and when we act consistent with it, that leads to healthy sexuality.

Absolutely. For both partners. Part of figuring out, who am I as a sexual being, because we're all sexual beings, and what are my values? Where do I stand? What am I comfortable with? What am I not? And that is that healthy bonding of, hi, partner. I'm. You want to try this? Oh, okay. I can, but. Oh, maybe I'm not comfortable with that. Okay, let's take that off the table. But we can be free to explore some other things.

And. And ultimately there's conversations there in comp. In contrast. Right. If I don't. If I'm not clear on values, if I'm not clear on what my core sexuality is and what. What fits into what I would say healthy versus something I'm not comfortable with. I've met many individuals who, after acting out for an extended period of time, they realize I. I didn't even like what I was doing, and yet I found myself doing it. And it's going against my values, my traditions. And I. I've. As I've talked with them, that's when they start to realize that it has overcome them and they've acted in ways that are incongruent with who they want to be.

Yeah, absolutely. When you say that, I'm reminded. I'm going to guess you've had this happen hundreds of times. But I don't know how many clients who I've talked to who've been in affairs or who acted outside of their relationships who've said, yeah, the sex wasn't even that great. It wasn't really even about the sex. Or once they. Even if they're using pornography, they orgasm and then they're filled with shame and remorse and. But it doesn't even feel that good.

Right? That's right. All right, now let's keep going along here. I. I think one of the things that often happens when we look at healthy sexuality versus unhealthy sexuality, there's a concept here of excitement, satisfactory versus excitatory pleasure. And. And Dr. Norman Deutsch, he talks about this in his work, talking about the difference, pornography or fantasy in contrast with something that is satisfying. And he suggests that pornography and extended fantasy, meaning I continually fantasize about something. It creates this excitatory arousal or excitement, but it doesn't create the connection, real lasting satisfaction like having sexual relations with your partner would have. And he equates it. He says, you know, it's like having something that is empty. You feel that temporary excitement, but it doesn't really fulfill you.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think you're also talking about like, or you didn't mention, but I think it's part of this is the intensity. There's usually an intensity factor. And I know a lot of my clients will talk about who use porn. They. They talk about edging, where porn is created. Like, just as you start to finish the video, something else will pop up, and something else will pop up to keep it going, because it's that seeking the intensity and that novelty that fuels.

The brain, you know, and maybe this is a good point to bring up. You know, a lot of people ask, what are our thoughts about pornography and how it influences our lives, how it influences relationships? And, and I can just tell you, I've been. Been a clinician through the beginning of the Internet, early 90s, as it began to come really forward. 95, 96, when it really started there. And I've actually watched over time how pornography has influenced individuals and how it's influenced relationships. And just from an observer, over the last almost 30 years, I have witnessed the transformation of our culture. And, and so when people ask me, you know, what's really wrong with pornography? How do you know, what are your thoughts about it? My. My Initial response is, rarely, if ever have I seen pornography be ex. Used consistently in healthy interactions between two people. And, and, and I would just say if you start looking at the difference between the connection. Using Norman Doidge's work, there's a book, Hardwired Behavior, and we're talking about the different chemicals that occur when people are viewing pornography versus being sexually intimate with their partner. We're not talking about the same intensity of chemicals. In particular, vasopressin and oxytocin are hormones that bond us together. And when we are being active with our partner, those are more likely to come forward, not as intense with pornography. And so I think it's important for us to understand that there are, there are differences.

Absolutely. One of the porn researchers, Donald Hilton, he's a neurosurgeon. And I remember several years ago him saying, you know, if porn hasn't affected your family yet, it will. And I remember thinking, what, what? That's crazy. But I've, I've seen that. And, and it's, it, it is ubiquitous. It's the wallpaper of our society. And so many times or so often we just kind of go, oh yeah, that, that's, our society has said that's really normal. But if we're looking at it from like the neurological standpoint or what it does to our brain, not even the relational part, but it actually shrinks our gray matter of our brain, it changes the way that we think. And so from a deep level, not just the relational level, it's changing our brains. And I don't know if you want to talk about porn induced erectile dysfunction here, but boy, that's just shot up.

Oh, incredible amounts. In fact, some of the research that we've seen that, again, 2530 year olds having porn induced erectile dysfunction due to their excessive use of pornography. Now again, that's just one part of it. Then trying to compare themselves to what they've been viewing, many feel inadequate. And then if we take it even a step further, Lawrence Tancredi in his book Hardwired Behavior, he suggests, and, and again, he's really done research, some of the research on this and he suggests that if you get two excessive hormones, so you basically have four chemicals, and he refers to these four chemicals, testosterone based dopamine, and I think it's norepinephrine and, and oxytocin and vessel vasopressin. One of the things that he talks about is if you have excessive, in one of them, you don't need bonding. And, and that is one of the things that I have found when I've worked with individuals who are engaging in excessive porn use, their need for connection is dampened and, and, and it really influences their desire for social connectivity, which again, we're talking about human intimacy. I think that's the antithesis. It is exactly the opposite of what we're trying to, trying to create.

And isn't it sad when you have a client come into your office that says I can't get aroused with a human being, it doesn't work anymore. And they're young and shifting just a little bit away from that. But also talking about how it's impacting even society as a whole. If we're turning to porn for education or our sex ed, which often happens, that's where it's being talked about. Because oftentimes our society has a lot of shame around talking about sex, sexuality, what most porn is based on violence. Over 90% of what's depicted is usually violence towards women or females. And looking at how that impacts the relationships that. This is what I learned. Now let me take this into my relationship. It creates some pretty big problems for our relationality.

You know, I, in my book Treating Sexual Addiction, I share a story of an individual who, who I asked them how it impact pornography had influenced their life. And it's one of the more sad stories that I've heard. But this guy said, you know, it's 40 years I've been involved in this and it's oh, basically been so much a part of my life that at this point I'm still married, my wife and children don't want anything to do with me. And he basically then concluded spending thousands and thousands of dollars, 40 years of my life and the deep regret that I wasn't present for my wife and my children. And you know, I know a lot of people who, younger. That won't happen to me. That won't happen to me, right? I mean I can stop, I can quit. And yet if I could put up the cautionary red flag here and say, when will you stop? When will you start to engage in relationships and when will it not be a part of your life? I'll never forget another man that came to me. He was single, in his 60s, he looked at me single, never married. And he said 45 years it's dominated my life. I'd like to be in a relationship, but I don't have the confidence, I don't have the self worth. And it's all because of my consuming pornography. I, I think about the sadness of that person's life. And I think about, I mean, just looking at him, I mean, he was a good looking man, never married, never in a committed relationship that lasted. And his, his internal dialogue was nobody would want me because I've been involved with this for most of my life.

And that, that shame dialogue is so, so deep. I have so many clients say if people really knew what a monster I am, they use those words, monster. They couldn't love me, they wouldn't want me. And so I have to keep this hidden, which creates part of that unhealthy dynamic. Because if it's something that's shameful, that goes against my value system that I can't talk about, that means I'm not showing up. That means I'm not showing up. Enabled connecting, honestly.

So if you're listening to this podcast, I, I just wanted to say two things here. First of all, there is help. If you can't stop, there are people who are trained professionals who are supportive. There are groups that you can create a connection with people and have accountability, have find a sponsor. There are answers. And I have just even this week talked with a person who's a fear of losing his wife, fear of losing his family. And honestly, in looking at him, his demeanor, scared, afraid, hopeless. And so if you're listening to this, you don't have to do it alone, you don't have to do this all by yourself. So if you're stuck in that part of life where pornography's consumed your life, there is help. And if you want to reach out, you want support questions@humanintimacy.com I'll give you as much support as I possibly can to get you the resources you need. So, you know, if you've got questions about this where you can get help. Questionsumanintimacy.com we'll give you information to help you find the right resources.

Absolutely. There is so much hope and it's so beautiful to see clients and individuals who are, I'm going to take one of your words, Dr. Skinner, but like recovery is going back through my life and recovering and picking back up the things that I lost that I didn't have. So recovering relationships, recovering self confidence, recovering self worth and self compassion, those are such a beautiful part of the journey.

Yeah. All right. As we continue down this path now, getting back to, you know, maybe addictive sexuality, healthy sexuality, what are some of the other core parts you'd say healthy versus addictive. What are some of the other core parts you would want to add to our conversation? Marianne?

I think it'd be great to talk about the self destructive impacts or when it's dangerous. Those are some themes that often come up with the clients that come into my office where they're, they don't go to, they don't go to work, they don't get out of bed, they get into some cycles where they're just self sabotaging and they lose their family, they lose their spouses, they lose their jobs. There's some, sometimes I see clients who are, you know, hook using apps where they're hooking up with somebody once again looking at what goes with my values and suddenly I am in a situation with somebody and, and if, if anybody saw me, they'd be horrified, I'd be horrified, I'm horrified afterwards. But even putting myself in really dangerous.

Situations, you know, I often ask individuals who come to my office seeking help for this, you know, are you surprised at your behavior? Are you surprised that you got to this place? What, whatever their sexual behavior is, that's a common question I ask, are you surprised by it? And as they start to look at their story and one of the core things that we do when I work with individuals is we go back and we create a sexual history timeline. And as we do that sexual history timeline, inevitably they're like, oh man, maybe I shouldn't be surprised because there are building blocks, building blocks that were never, they never did, they didn't get help. There were secrets and there's hidden behaviors. And as we start to explore that, many times I, they sense a relief. It's like I'm finally able to talk about these things. And really in that process, the risk taking gets reduced. They no longer are taking the risk. Because when you're, I again, I call it the sexual trance. When you're in that trance, you don't think about your partner, you don't think about losing your family, you don't think about losing your job. That is one of the indicators that I say. That's why we look at it as addictive. Right? I mean if it were alcohol, some people are inebriated with their sexuality every day and, and they're spending money that they don't have. They're putting their life at risk, their, their family at risk. And if it were alcohol, they'd be drunk every day, they'd be inebriated. Sure.

And then if we're flipping that and we're looking at what, what does healthy look like? Healthy is always about safety, it's always about consent. It's always about two people. They're connected and communicating and attuned. And this is the eye contact, this is the verbal contact. This is the being aware of the minute changes in our partner and their body to make sure that it's always safe for both individuals.

And maybe a little bit of a contrast here. I talk about a individual in a sexual trance. We could almost say it's a form of disassociation, disassociating from reality, in contrast with being present, being with a person, being attuned to a person, that they're very different type of sexuality. And when individuals work through their trance, that. That separation from self and they come into healthy sexuality. It's amazing to me the people who've said, we haven't had that good of sex in years, because finally they're attuned and aware and connected in meaningful ways.

As you've probably heard. Dr. Skinner, as we meet for our lunch and learn and we discuss different things, different topics, our friend Brett Williams, I remember something that he shared at one point, and he said, good sex starts in the morning. It starts at breakfast. It starts at the beginning of the day because it's, hey, here I am, and I'm connected to you, and I'm aware of you, and I'm interested in you. And it is all about that attunement, that communication, that presentness. And it might not happen until the evening, but it's about aligning with each other throughout the day.

Yeah. So what we would call foreplay, in. In multiple versions, it's emotional foreplay. It's really setting a table for connection throughout the entire day. Again, in simple things, but they are messages of connection. And again, I think it's really, really important. When we have healthy sexuality, we are comfortable being flirtatious. We are open to healthy touch. Not in inappropriate ways, but in healthy ways where, you know, it's a hug, it's eye contact, it's a smile, it's a wink, it's. It's a question that's legitimate and being present, how are you feeling? What's going on? What's. What's going on interesting in your world? That's. That is human intimacy. Sexual intimacy is like the icing on the cake when we truly put it in that context, you know?

You know, as you said that, that reminded me of a. A parenting book by Glenn Latham. It's called the Power of Positive Parenting. And in there, he says that with our kids, we need to have 20 positive interactions every hour. And I remember the first time I read that, I was like, that is just not possible. That's so many. But he talked about, it's the smile, it's the touch, it's the look, it's the nod, it's the hand on the back and the pat. And when you look at it, it's actually not that hard when you break it down to, to just do these simple interactions. And if we look at that, if that's a powerful tool for children, that's. Think how that, just as you were saying, how that can impact our, our relationship with our partner.

Yeah, I, I want to shift just a little bit. It doesn't change the topic a whole lot, but, you know, we were talking about healthy and unhealthy sexuality. The first rule of all human connection is safety. And if we think about the human body and we look at it from what a term we've used with Dr. Stephen Porges, the polyvagal theory, you know, when I feel safe, my body relaxes in your presence. And I think that that should be the foundation of our healthy sexuality is, is really creating an environment that feels safe for, for each other. And safety then becomes a beautiful foundation where in each other's presence, we allow ourselves to relax and be present. And, and it's not a state of obligation, it's not a state of fear, it's not a state of rejection. Even in, even if we have a sexual desire discrepancy. And this is a very common issue. I'd love to have a podcast just doing on, on sexual desire discrepancy, because it's such a huge issue in our culture. And yet when we have differences, most couples, they don't know how to communicate. They don't know what to say. And so one partner leaves frustrated, rejected. The other partner feels like all my partner to sex. And so we create an environment where we don't know how to communicate it. And no longer are we talking about safe sexuality. I'm feeling rejected, I'm feeling abandoned. I'm feeling like, you don't love me, all you want is sex. And we got this couple going back and forth. Very problematic, huge issue. And I invite all couples to think about how we're communicating about this sexual desire discrepancy. Because if I can have couples talk about it, and again, sometimes they need help, sometimes they can't do it on their own. They need to role play. They need to figure out how to communicate it effectively. But I, I would just say safe environment. Even around difficult conversations, even differences, we have to create a safe environment. That's where couples make the most progress.

And that makes so much sense because we're. When you are in that safe place, you're open, you're curious, you're creative, you're connected, you. You can explore because you're saf. Minute it starts feeling demanding or shut down or argumentative or defensive, I need to protect myself. We instantly are in that fight, fight or fight place, and that's where we can connect well.

And I think, again, going back to the polyvagal theory, again, if you're not familiar with the polyvagal theory, general concept is we connect when we feel safe. When we don't feel safe, we go into fight or flight or freeze mode and. And we put it in the sexual relationship. And that's really one of those core things that every couple needs to explore. Create a saf. If you don't know how to create safety in your relationship, you need more support, you need help, you need people to guide you through that so you can create a safe environment for human connection and human intimacy.

Absolutely. I think there's two other. Two other areas or topics that I think we want to address here. Are you okay if we move on?

Yeah, let's extend just a bit.

Yeah, yeah. So I think the next one that's really important is. Is numbing. Anytime that sex is used to numb to medicate. So I feel some shame, I feel hurt, I feel bored, whatever it is, I feel stressed. So I'm going to turn to something sexual. That absolutely is not a healthy behavior because I'm turning away from my relationships. I'm turning away from human connection and intimacy where I want to be vulnerable and say I'm hurt, I'm tired, I'm sad, I'm lonely. And that's where in that vulnerability we connect and attach. And so understanding that oftentimes that's when we're looking at sex addiction, it's often the tool, the go to tool to numb and medicate.

Yeah. And if I was just to add to what you're saying, in our profession, we often see individuals who. Who have learned to numb out because they don't want to deal with the stress or the pressure of life. And. And so their sexual. Their sexual behaviors are. Is really a coping mechanism. And this is something that maybe in our advanced course on sexuality at human intimacy, one of the things I talk about is, is really related to this. If you're fighting anxiety, anxiety may be the. Actually the root of it, and you're sexually acting out is actually the manifestation of your anxiety. And a lot of people are, you know, misattuned or Misaware of that. You know, they focus on treating the sexuality, but really they need to focus on their anxiety. And many of the individuals I work with, they're highly anxious, and their sexual behavior is only coping mechanism to deal with her anxiousness.

Yeah. And putting that another way, what I'm hearing you say is the sexual behavior is actually like the symptom. It's. It's the symptom of what?

Right. And. And more often than not, people focus on, I want to stop the sexual behavior. And I have found more often than not, when we work, help them work through the anxiety, help them work through the emotional, what we call emotional regulation, their ability to deal with our sexual behaviors is enhanced and increased significantly. So, again, going back to this, if you're numbing out sexually, you might check into anxiety and get some support and really explore your own anxiety. And it's not just racing thoughts. The human body, it's anxious body. I can't settle down. My mind is racing. And physiologically, I feel like I'm in a constant state of stress.

And I would add, I also see clients oftentimes with trauma and shame. Also at the roots of this as well, that it's a symptom of those also.

Yes, absolutely. And we could go on with ADHD and a whole bunch of other things, but. But again, that's for another day. All right, what is the final one that you wanted to bring up today, Marianne?

I think the final one, and we probably touched on this in different ways, but it's about the honesty. Anytime that I have to hide any behaviors, that's not going to be healthy. It's not going to help my relationships grow. It's going to feed to my shame. And so anytime that we've got dishonesty or there's a double life, anytime that I have to hide anything or there's secrecy, that's not connecting, that's not bonding, that's not attaching.

Yeah. And again, I think there's a really critical component here. You and I both are in favor of disclosures, taking what has been hidden, behaviors, behaviors that have never been disclosed, and. And having open, honest conversations, rigorous honesty, core concept. But when individuals can't be honest, they have secrets. Patrick Karn said most people continue to relapse when they have secrets, and then they have a lack of structure. You put those two things in place, lack of structure, and then you put into it secret dealing with secrecy. You're going to get better outcomes.

Yeah, absolutely. And there's that toll that you carry, and it carries on into the relationship because I'm not being authentic. I'm not showing up authentically in my. My spouse or partner saying, what's going on? It seems like something's off and no, everything's fine. And that. That leads into gaslighting because my partner's picking it up. But because of that dishonesty that I'm carrying, because I often think, oh, they can't take it or every. I'll lose everything. It causes a lot of psychological abuse to the partner who is sensing it, is recognizing and noticing it, but. But can't put their finger on it because of the denial, you know, And.

I just want to close today's podcast with the other side of this. When we see individuals coming clean. When I do men's groups online just and in person groups, I absolutely love it. I truly. It's one of the most amazing things when I see these individuals being open, being honest, not afraid of even their own thoughts, and they're open and they're reaching out for support to each other and to the group. It is so, so much fun to see the lights turn back on where they begin to have hope, they begin to have this energy, and they're like, I've never. I haven't felt this way in years. And. And you know, I know we're talking about healthy sexuality versus addictive sexuality, but when you are in that trance and you're stuck and you feel hopeless and you're in those secrets and you're deceptive, that is so stressful on the human body. And that when you're authentic and you're being seen in, to me see, you're not afraid to. Of people looking into you. It is absolutely beautiful. And the reason why is you're still beautiful even though you've been where you've been. Don't forget who you really are. And so to the listeners, I would say healthy sexuality. You can be a healthy sexual person. And it really starts with being honest and congruent, not being afraid of your past and then developing a way to connect in a meaningful way with your partner.

I would add, as you were talking about that formal disclosure process, there's so much vulnerability there. The word that encompasses that process, as I've been able to witness it for so many of my clients, is it's a sacred process. It is sacred. And it's just so beautiful to see that here I am. Here's everything. It's out on the table. Do you still like me? Can you still be there for me? And to see the partner saying, oh, I can see that pain. I can see how hard that is, seeing being able to see each other deeply in those moments. That's where we start to build from when there has been that deception, that dishonesty, and it gives us a place to kind of put the edges around things. Now I know what I'm dealing with. Now I know what. How to make sense of things. And now I can start to let my physiological system relax so that I can begin to heal, because now I can start to trust and there can be safety because there has been this vulnerability. And that is just a sacred, beautiful process. And it's such an important part of the healing journey.

All right, thank you, Marianne, for joining today. What a great topic. Again, to our listeners, we want to express our appreciation for you taking the time. We understand that your time is valuable, and so we genuinely appreciate it. Our hope is that you will share this podcast with friends and others that you feel would benefit from it. The difference between healthy sexuality and potentially addictive sexuality. The end result, human connection, human intimacy. We invite you to join us in creating deep and lasting and intimate relationships. Because ultimately, the fabric of our society is based upon the health of our relationships. I'm a huge advocate of healthy sexuality. A huge advocate. It healthy sexuality. Boy, I tell you, when we get it right, it is absolutely delightful. And when we don't, it's the most painful we can experience. Anything you want to add, Marianne?

I just invite all of our listeners to just consider the things that we've talked about today and look at. In what areas can I become more healthy in my own sexual sexuality and my own sexual expression and really in my relationships? Because that is where our joy comes from. It is through healthy, safe connection.

All right, well, thank you so much, Marianne, for your time. And to our listeners, may you be blessed in finding and creating the deep, intimate relationships that you long for. Thanks so much for being with us.

Thank you.