Exploring the Silent Struggle: Betrayed Men and Their Healing Journey with Dr. Jesse Piles (Episode #43)

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Welcome to the Human intimacy podcast. I'm Dr. Kevin Skinner with a new friend of mine, that is. I'm. Boy, I'm excited. Today's topic, Dr. Jesse piles is with us today. Want to welcome you, Jesse.

Hello. Thank you, Kevin. I appreciate being on here.

You know, one of the things about. Let me just give a short introduction to you because I asked, you know, for a little bit of your bio and you said, you know what, you hold a PhD in humanities, you're a researcher. And then you said something interesting that I'd like you to expound on. You said that you're keenly interested in topics that center on the intersections of human nature, cognitive awareness, and societal normatives to our listeners. What does that mean?

You know, I, I think that the most important, the easiest way for me to explain that is that we have our basic nature. We have what makes us the mammals that we are. And that's the basic nature. Right. We have basic emotions and they're governed by the most primitive parts of the brain. Right. Then we have our cognitive awarenesses. So in any one experience, we might experience it at that primal basic nature level. Then we might also experience it at the cognitive level. And then beyond that, there's the societal normatives of how society perceives of basic experiences and cognitive experiences. And there's a lot of conflict in that. There's a lot of double speak. Sometimes there's a lot of misunderstanding between what's a basic experience, what's a cognitive experience, what are the societal normatives. And that's kind of where my interest is in this topic.

Yeah. And so we're Going to talk about. And this is to our listeners, this is going. I just piqued your interest. I'm telling you the first time I met Jesse and we started talking. Our topic today is actually betrayed men. We're going to be talking about men who've been betrayed, how they respond. We're going to be looking at differences between how women respond to betrayal, how men respond to betrayal. You've spent, it sounds like years studying about betrayed men. You're interacting with betrayed men. You're running groups. You do a lot of understanding research based to help really the betrayed man have a voice, because it sounds like we haven't had a voice for betrayed men. Could you expound on that?

Yeah. So beginning in conversations a number of years ago, I started listening to betrayed men speak and can't really tell you why people decided to talk to me about it, but it's one of those things that I became interested in and one of the things that consistently just about every betrayed husband that I spoke with would speak of. There is no material for me. There is no books for me. When I read books, I don't really understand how to put that into my experience. Right. They say, and some have said, well, it says change the pronouns. Right. If we could change the pronouns, then we could understand the experience with he is betrayed and she is unfaithful. For example, I started reading the same material and I kind of compared what was men were talking about compared to what was in the material. And being a researcher, I decided, why not go into the scientific research about this material? And so that was kind of my deep dive, which began about three or four years ago, my deep dive into the scientific research, journal articles especially. And what I discovered is that essentially for about the last three decades, since the mid-1990s, there's been a tremendous amount of material on infidelity overall, from a scientific level. I have been able to locate through University subscription, 800 journal articles that I've worked through. And that's thousands of hours of research and reading and just understanding. And basically, it's been comparing men's experiences with where the science is simply because what's in the popular material doesn't land with betrayed men very much.

And so with all of that research, if I was to say, okay, Jesse, we want to understand, what are some of the key differences that you've identified, maybe between what you're experiencing in the literature and what popular culture is saying about infidelity, what are some of the differences that you've identified?

Well, I would say one Is if I read the material about betrayed women's experiences, it speaks of abandonment as being their very worst experience. It's. It's the thing they fear. It's. They fear for their own well being, their children's well being. I've spoken with several dozen betrayed men and none of them have ever spoke of fearing their wife might abandon them. And I have not yet spoken with a betrayed father whose wife actually did abandon him. So that's a. Something that jumps off the page straight away as being quite different. And then the basic emotions, the. Seems to me the ones that are. I guess one of the big differences in reading the research is the sexual psychology differences between men and women. And that's where research really bears this out. Right. We should expect differences in betrayed women than we expect in betrayed men because their sexual psychologies and their basic natures are different.

And so as you started getting into that, was it surprising to you or was it like, okay, this is now making sense based upon what I'm hearing from the men that I'm interacting with.

It was both. One is it made sense based on what I hear from men? Right? It's like, okay, that's where that is. Okay, that's the source of this. Right. And so, for example, a study of the. The basic emotions, the seven basic emotions that, you know, lie in that primitive part of our brain, right? Fear, disgust, surprise, joy, contempt. Right. A cup, sadness. That's another one that makes sense in, in. In what I've heard from men. Where I was surprised is that this material has been published in the scientific community for three decades and hasn't made it into popular literature.

And why do you think that's the case? Just, just as an observer, why do you think that's happening? Because you're talking three decades of information that could be helpful to betrayed men, and we're not talking about it.

Well, I think there are several reasons for that. One is just simply a lot of betrayed men never come forward. Right. Just. Right. Right from the get go. So, you know, I was speaking with someone recently that if the statistics on, on. On women's infidelity are correct, then there are hundreds of thousands or millions of men that simply keep this quiet. And one of the things that science bears out is that men tend to isolate in difficulty. Right? Women tend to seek community in difficulty. Men tend to isolate in difficulty. So I would say that's one reason. And another reason is there's a lot of information, a lot of suggestion, a lot of myth that men just get over infidelity Right. They just somehow, they grin and bear it and hunker down and they don't get over it, but they bury it pretty well. I'd say that's a significant difference.

And do you think that's why we're not hearing about more cases? Let me just give an example here. When I wrote an article many years ago about infidelity and sexual betrayal, and it was on psychology today, and 95% of those who completed the survey were women, 5% were men. You're based upon what you're finding in your research, the statistics are much higher of men who have been betrayed. But we're not seeing that, at least from maybe a survey. So are they not willing to take a survey? What's actually happening to these men? Are they not, Are they not coming out? And if not, why not?

Well, so there's. I, I can't say exactly why not. What I can say is in the conversations I've had with men, surveys don't really land with them the way they're worded. Right. And one of the things I, I would say there's two things that come. Every man I have spoken with, particularly every betrayed father, has asked for one or two of things first before he's willing to talk about himself at all. Tips, tricks, guidance, help for holding his family together and help for his wife. Those two things. And they will ask for that information. They will ask for approaches, for methods. How do I hold my family together? Who can help my wife? Can you guide me to someone who can help her? Right. After maybe the first three hours of conversation, four hours, then they might begin to talk about their own experience. So that's a, that's, that really always stands out.

So, so they're reaching out for their family. How do I save my family? My. How someone please help my wife. And eventually they get to their internal emotions.

Eventually. And, but you have to provide all the information about their first two, their two questions first, and then that creates a rapport, and then they get to their internal experience.

All right, so I, let's, let's talk a little bit about this because I can hear some of our listeners saying, you know, I'm not sure that betrayed, that there are a lot of betrayed men. I mean, statistically speaking, you only found 5%. But I'm going to say that based upon my conversations with you, we're seeing a lot more research is saying there's a lot of betrayed men. Maybe they're not talking about it, but statistically speaking, what is. Would you say the ratio Is betrayed women to betrayed men, just based upon your research up to this point?

Well, so the research bears out that, you know, again, in the last 30 years, the research bears out that men and women betray each other at equal rates. Men and women betray equally. Men are more likely to admit to it. Women are less likely. So for, you know, whatever the statistics are, the, the, the most reliable statistics are somewhere between a third and a half of men and women will betray at least once in a committed relationship in their life.

All right, let me reiterate what you just said, because I want to make sure that I'm absolutely clear. You're saying that we're finding equal levels of betrayal and infidelity from women and men and men to women. And basically one third to one half of all committed relationships at some point in their relationship will experience some form of infidelity or sexual betrayal.

Let me be more specific. One third to one half of men and women will betray their spouse in the course of their life. That's really in the term betray.

Are we talking infidelity or are we talking.

We're talking about sexual infidelity.

We're talking about sexual infidelity. One third. So 33 to 50% at some point in their.

In the course of their life in a committed relationship, particular, specifically marriage, which is so amazing.

If those statistics are holding true, what in the world are we doing? We are not even talking about betrayed men. I mean, as a culture, as a society, this is like, I don't know if we're looking at priorities, and we're looking. Even in my own field, this is not something that's being talked about hardly at all.

Well, I think one of the big differences here is science also bears out that a betrayed man who isn't a father almost invariably leaves the relationship. Right. And so, and they tend not to speak about it simply because they leave the relationship. The men, 85% of the men I've spoken to, maybe 90 have been fathers. Right. And, and there's, there's something you asked a question earlier, and, and I wanted to add on there. A lot of the men who've been betrayed, and especially the fathers, they speak of protective instinct both towards their family and towards their wife. And so they're very, very hesitant to expose their children to, to their own difficulty and what their mother did. And they're very hesitant to speak openly of their wife's infidelity. So they still have protective instincts towards her.

Okay, so let's, let's go into that for a second. They're Protecting their family. This is something that you're describing. What are you seeing in the terms of the difference between the betrayed man, the betrayed woman? What are you seeing the difference in terms of. Okay, we know that there's this protective nature that you're describing. Why are we trying to stay? What, what, what's the difference in who's staying and why are we staying?

Yeah, I think the, the big thing here, right? So the men I speak with have three distinct characteristics. They are bonded to their wife. They speak of the bond. They speak of knowing the bond is there. They speak of being puzzled why infidelity didn't break the bond. But they speak about bond. They speak of commitment. And in commitment in, in terms of. To their family and to their marriage. And they, when they speak of commitment, there's two words that come in there quite frequently and one is meaning and the other is legacy. So they, their meaning, their life meaning is associated with their commitment to their family. And the long term commitment is legacy. For example, a number of men will talk about their unborn grandchildren, right. That they want their unborn grandchildren to have the opportunity for grandpa and grandma to come to Christmas together. Right. So it's the meaning and the legacy and, and then conscientiousness. That's the third. Right. That I've spoken with a number of men who will simply say, morally, I know that I could leave this relationship, but my conscientiousness will not allow me to leave. And I think that's. Those are the three characteristics and in what keeps men oriented towards staying.

All right, so can you discuss some of these statistics about men who have tried or are staying. Trying to stay Again, I'm going to go back. You have in here that you say more than four fifths are fathers. Two thirds discovered that their wife had multiple sexual affairs and were still trying.

Yes.

Explain that.

Well, so most of the men who discovered their wife has. Had, has been unfaithful, discover one affair, it tends to be within the third year to the tenth year of marriage. You could even hone it down to the third year to the seventh is probably even more accurate. So somewhere in the third year of marriage to the seventh year of marriage when they discover one infidelity, about 2/3 of men discover there have been multiples. When they discover there have been multiples. So about 2/3 of men I've talked to so a lot, they discover in some cases that their wife has had serial affairs and in other cases that their wife has had serial and concurrent affairs. So the average number is women who are having about three affairs by the time their husband discovers this three to seven years into, into the marriage.

So what's so interesting is in this conversation, again, to our listeners, maybe this is just blowing your mind in terms of just the frequency, the amount, but I want to speak more for a second to the, to the man who's been betrayed because you're giving statistics that are mind boggling for probably most people listening. And yet there's research and, and you sent me the research. So I've actually been, you know, combing through some of this myself, just looking at this. I'll put, we'll put some of these, you know, some of these research articles so you can look it up yourself if you are questioning what we're talking about. Okay. Because I want to make sure to our listeners this isn't just random stuff. This is research based conversation. Jesse is a researcher who really has dug in and so I want to share this and this is one of the reasons why he's on the podcast because I think this is something that is not being spoken about enough. So for a second, let's transition. What are the man's greatest needs, Jesse? I mean, he's been betrayed, he's hurting, he's suffering and he's afraid to talk. He's not sure how people are going to respond. What are his greatest needs?

Probably the number one is to be listened to. To be listened to with an open mind. And I'll take that a little bit further. To be listened to with an open mind that is not trying to encapsulate his experience within a model. Right, okay. So like for example, I've heard a number of men have said, well, when I speak of the meaning of my family, then that is interpreted as me fearing abandonment by my wife. But that's not the same thing to them. Right? The meaning of my family is not me fearing abandonment, it's you. To have a family, you need the mother and the father together. The concept of, oh, okay, you said that. So that translate to this and you said that and that translates to this. Well, that's not open minded listening. So they really need open minded listening in terms of what matters to them. And the more you listen to them, the more you don't try to respond immediately, then the more open many of them become. Like for example, after many conversations with one husband, he said, I feel like my situation is worsened by the fact that I lost my mother to a health issue at a very early age and she passed away. And he said, so I Think I probably have. I'm very anxiously attached because I never had that strong connection with my mother because she passed away. Right. And that's a very significant emotional outpouring that this gentleman spoke about. But that didn't come in until the third or fourth or fifth hour of conversation.

Yeah. So the awareness that you're describing there, Jesse, is to sit back with openness to hear what's being said, not, oh, you must be feeling, you must be thinking. One of the best steps we can take. What you're saying out of the gate number one, is going with an open mind, be curious and try to help them give a voice maybe to what they're actually experiencing.

Sure, absolutely. Of voice and the. The openness to listen. Right. The. To the. To the greatest. Probably the simplest way that I could put this. The infidelity recovery models that exist in the present accommodate women quite well. But men's experiences are so significantly different. Like, if we read. Like if we go to the basic. Right. That women might fear abandonment, that might be a betrayed wife's worst experience. Well, betrayed husband's worst experience might be basic disgust. Now, if we consider what a betrayed wife's most cognitive damage, it would be her husband's deception. A betrayed husband's most cognitive damage might be his wife's resentfulness. So about half of the betrayed men I've spoke to speak of knowing that their wife was resentful before they discovered infidelity. Almost all men who've been betrayed speak of their wife's resentment after he discovers her infidelity, which has a significant amount of blame attribution. And it tends to go along three lines. I felt. This is the wife, the unfaithful wife speaking. I felt emotionally neglected by you. Okay. That's one. The other one is I am dissatisfied with you as a person, and that is why I betrayed you. And the third one in resentfulness, I am dissatisfied with our marriage. This is not as is. This is not what I thought our marriage would be. And there's a lot of blame attribution for infidelity that flows in all three of those. And men speak consistently of not knowing a way forward so long as the wife who betrayed them, who they're trying to hold the family together with, continues to assign him responsibility for her decisions and actions.

So much like the research I've done with women who've been betrayed, there is a component of blame that you're describing, but even the blame might be a different reason. Like men are not going to be saying in general I had the affair because you weren't emotionally available. They may be a few, but statistically speaking, you're saying that is a common thing that women are giving, or men are saying that they're hearing from their wife who betrayed them is that they were not emotionally available.

Yes, and I've done, I've done deep research on those three main blame attributions and for example, not feeling emotionally satisfied and not feeling emotionally supported. Scientific research consistently returns to, to the theme of high neuroticism. In the big five personality, right, we have conscientiousness, agreeableness, openness, extroversion, and neuroticism. And in big five, high neuroticism is directly associated with feeling neglected emotionally as justification for infidelity. In women.

In women.

In women. Because in, in men and women in the big five, low conscientiousness is the foundation when men betray low conscientiousness, when women betray low conscientiousness, but the combinations vary there. With men, the additional is also low agreeableness. That's what the science bears out. So in men, it's low conscientiousness and low agreeableness. And women, its low conscientiousness and high neuroticism. And then high neuroticism is directly correlated with feeling emotionally neglected as justification for infidelity.

All right, I can just imagine our listeners saying, okay, what does conscientiousness mean? Can you, can you give us a flavor of what that actually looks like, what it even means?

Yeah. So conscientiousness is associated with dutiful achievement, commitment, accomplishing the tasks that are in front of you, living the lifestyle that you profess to live, not taking shortcuts. Right. And low conscientiousness is the opposite of all of that. Your word is negotiable. Achievement is less important than experience. Sensation seeking, for example, laziness is associated with low conscientiousness, whereas hard work is associated with conscientiousness. It's just one of the big five personality traits. And the average conscientiousness in average human beings sits slightly above 50%. So that basically means about half of all people. When it comes to any one decision, it's a coin flip which way they're going to go.

Not necessarily guided by values or whatever. It's just a coin flip.

Whatever I'm going to do whatever I'm going to do. So low conscientiousness is lower than 50%.

Okay, so thank you for that. So now let's go to the Term agreeableness.

Agreeable.

Could you expound on that?

Right. So agreeableness is, are you actively, are you a person who looks to build alliances, looks to make friends, looks to create a, a legacy of friendship and having built something with people, are you personable, are you willing to cooperate? Right. And there is such a thing as excessive agreeableness because then you can just be rolled over by like a, you know, flattened by a steam truck. But low agreeableness is I really don't care about people, I really don't care about building a legacy. I really don't care about, you know, anything meaningful. It's me and what I want and that's what I'm going to do.

Okay, so agreeableness in this context, let me make sure that we've cover this accurately and saying it right so our listeners can understand. So agreeableness in that situation, which partner is more agreeable and is a part of that. Just quickly review that for us.

Which partner is more agreeable?

Yeah, you're saying that is more likely to have had an affair which one relates with agreeableness.

Men. So low agreeableness and low conscientiousness in men inclines men to infidelity. But low conscientiousness and high neuroticism in women inclines them to infidelity.

So agreeableness then is in men. How does, how do you see that interacting with that? How do you. Men who are acting out. I just want to understand what is that application? How would we apply that?

Well, I don't work with men who betray their wives. I, I don't speak with them often. I can simply speak to what the science says, which is the science says that low agreeableness essentially ties to me at the center. What I want matters. I don't care about personal relationships very much and I am going to do what I want to do regardless of consequences.

So in that context it is the agreeableness is I'm going to do it my way. I'm more self focused rather than other and relationship focused. Focused.

Yes, exactly. That's a really good way of putting the way the science describes men who are low agreeable and unfaithful.

Okay, all right, so again I want to go back to. We're talking about men who have been betrayed. And again, I. Jesse, thank you so much for the work that you've been doing on this. I think this is a gaping hole of bringing this information out into the public. So we actually have greater awareness of the need here. So could you do me A favor. And can you discuss experiences that men speak about once rapport is established, once we've maybe crossed over that bridge? What are some of the nuggets that you have found with the people that you've been interacting with that to you would say, I think everybody needs to know this.

Yeah. So I would say one of the first ones is this. To a great extent, the damage for men in sexual infidelity lies exactly in the sexual domain. So they are plagued by a couple of things. In, In. In the concept of the relationship, they think of two things. They bring two questions that seem to haunt them. The, the emotional meaning of the relationship is two things. What was my wife thinking and what did she gain? I hear those two questions from almost every. Every betrayed husband I talked to. What was my wife thinking and what did she gain? And so those questions, because they. They just don't stop very much. The. They. They hash them out, and they hash them out, and they hash them out, but they never report a really good answer. Now, in the specifics of. In the context of sexual infidelity, where men really suffer, is that the question, who was my wife to the other man? That's where that. That really hits them.

So that question, who was she to this other person? It goes interestingly in my mind, I think, betrayed. Anybody who's been betrayed might be asking the question, what were you thinking? Right, right. You. You initially start, you know, what. What were you thinking? But this concept of what did you gain? That feels a little bit different than what I've heard from betrayed women.

Well, I think that if you listen to men, they will say, I devoted my energy to helping build a nest with my wife to make her feel secure. We have children together. We have a life together. Right. We. We have a home together, whatever that is. Right. And then the sexual infidelity puts all of that in jeopardy. And so then the question is, what did you actually gain? What. What did you get from being unfaithful? And that's a question that seems to haunt betrayed men. I don't. I've never heard a betrayed husband say he figured that out. And they basically come to a place of no good answers.

And if you were hypothesizing that, that concept of gain, would you say that maybe it's emotional connection or somebody was giving me attention? Maybe that felt like there was more of a energy between us and there's this underlying emotion or current between us that I didn't feel in my marriage? I mean, are those reasonable answers or those answers that just Feel like justifications.

Well, to the betrayed men, there are answers that feel like justifications. Right. Because somewhere. So this is something else. I've, I've run in. I've run to ground within the science. There is in women's infidelity a myth that there are men in the world who will regard an unfaithful wife and mother as a wonderful person and will make her his beloved and give her the love and attention that she does not receive from her husband. Science doesn't recognize that that type of man exists. Science is very, very clear on that, that men's objective for engaging in any type of sexual activity is the sex itself. Now, what men will betrayed, men will say that their wife said she gained a good feeling. She gained the, the excitement of feeling, the emotional rush of what her marriage felt like to her husband, say during the honeymoon phase. That's what the wife will say. But that still doesn't make sense to the husband because the love is supposed to mature and as children come, there's responsibility. But yeah, that. So a good feeling. Right. I've then when, when the husband is told that by his wife, what, what he says is, you were willing to trade a good feeling to risk. You were willing to exchange a good feeling to risk everything we've built together, including our children and our family. And that again, still doesn't make sense to them.

And I can hear on that one, many betrayed wives who may be listening to this out of curiosity. Yeah, they, they would probably say, you, you sacrificed me and our children for that, for, for that. Good. And I can hear them saying a good feeling or a, a sexual outcome. So maybe some parallels there. But I would also want you to identify there's something that you're picking up in here. In the men, there's two looking for an answer like the, the why. Why did this happen?

Well, I can take that. It's definitely in the men. And I've run that to ground in the science. For example, I just spoke of science not recognizing that there is a man who will selflessly engage with a married woman. Right. The other man. So first off, of all the men I've spoken with about who've, who've been betrayed, about two thirds of the other men were married. So that's a huge. About 2/3 of the other men have been married. Right. So then that is a man who has a wife, presumably has a family, is a father. So that kind of rules out. And that's, that's what the men have known. Right. It might be higher than that, but that's kind of about two thirds of the other men have been married. And so the other thing that science deals with, and there was a really interesting article published either early this year or late last year, 2023 or 2024, and it's called why Women Cheat. Question mark. And it makes its statement up front real quick. It says, not from a moral perspective, but from a biological perspective, men's infidelity makes sense, women's does not. And it requires a different explanation. So these are three researchers from prestigious universities that outright state that in an article called why Women Cheat Biologically, not morally, but biologically, men's infidelity makes sense. Biologically, women's infidelity does not. And they write the whole article based on that premise.

Wow. I can just hear. I can just hear the betrayed women who are listening to this going, I don't like that article at all. Right, but, but you're saying from a biological perspective. And do they come up with explanations of why women cheat?

Their answer is that they don't come to an explanation other than it's very complicated and we still don't really understand it.

So we don't know.

Right.

We got, we got lots more question marks here.

Well, so another way of saying men's infidelity makes sense biologically is saying that scientists also say it is well understood why men betray their wives. They betray their wives for sex. Right. And it's just whether, however you word it, why men betray their wives is no mystery to science. Right. It's a mystery why women betray their husbands.

So in that sense, they're saying, we still have a lot to learn.

Yes, exactly.

Okay, so I want to go back to something you said earlier, because I think in our previous conversation, you and I have had you talk about the concept of disgust as a common emotional expression of men who've been betrayed. Can you expound on that? Because that's a concept that for me personally, has not been something that I've seen in as many betrayed partners. I've had some betrayed women absolutely say, I am disgusted by my partner, disgusted by this. You're saying you're hearing that almost all the time with betrayed men.

When you build a rapport with men, it centers on that question, who was my wife to the other man? Sexually, who was my wife to the other man? And if they know that, all right, the other man was a married father. So what does my wife. What was my wife to him? Right. And so that man has a wife. He has someone to be sexual with. He has his own family. So the disgust factor is that basic thing, right. One of the basic emotions is disgust. And within disgust there are three, three domains of disgust. One is pathogen, which is bad water, bad food, disease, open sores. Right? Pathogen, disgust. That's A, A1 of scientific domains of disgust is pathogen. Another one is sexual disgust. It has to do with the exchanging of body fluids. It has to do with a reproductive partner who engages in non safe reproductive behaviors. That's what sexual disgust is. Right. In, in science calls that fitness. Right. Your fitness is your ability with your spouse, with your partner to leave a legacy by having children. And sexual disgust centers on violations of everything around that. And then the third domain of disgust is called moral disgust. But men consistently speak about sexual disgust. Who their wife was to the other man and how the other man treated her. That she was an object to him and not someone that. Nothing more than an object. Right? And that really lands at that, that basic disgust. If you listen to men, they, and you build that rapport and with that comes images, recognition. One thing, for example, and, and this is perhaps shocking, but a, a very high percentage of betrayed husbands learn that their wife and mother of the children sent nude selfies to the other man. Okay. And there's a lot of disgust around that and, and fear that the children might come across them somehow. So a number of men will speak about that. That. That's something that seems to be fairly unique to women's infidelity. Right. A lot of disgust on knowing that there are nude selfies in the ether that another man has of. And what are the use of those pictures for the other man?

I see.

Wow.

Okay, so let's, let's. As we get ready to wrap up, Jesse, a couple key things. What do you think the key barriers in your research, what are some of the key barriers that prevent men from reaching out for help? And then really, once they do get the help, what are some of the key barriers to their healing and recovery?

Well, I think the biggest barrier right now is the, the lack of awareness that there are many of them out there and that they cannot recover in the same way that a betrayed wife can recover because their experience is so different. Right. They, they have to learn how to, they have to learn how to process their emotions. Right. Men like internally to them, men inclined to stay in their cognition and they struggle to be in touch with their personal emotions. They know they love their wife, they know they love their family. But their personal emotions, it's easier for them to push those down, push those away, and Try to rise above that thing in men probably gives rise to the concept that men just get over infidelity. It's not true. They're just really good at burying it. So from a man's perspective, it seems to be opening themselves up to learning to feel the pain, which is a very, very difficult thing to do. Right. Men are not socialized that way from, from the outset. But then in, in the communities and the support communities, it's. The barrier is not trying to translate women's experiences with betrayal onto men's experiences. And I would say that combination is where the most work could be done on building a rapport with betrayed men and helping them be in touch with their experiences and being open minded and listening and helping to create a pathway, a process that promotes recovery for betrayed men. Awesome.

Awesome, awesome. Okay, so as we get ready to close up, I'm going to ask you this question. If you could just summarize the research. You've been doing this for three years. And really, I guess I have two questions. One would, what is your, your most important takeaway? And then the subsequent question to that is, you've been doing all this work. Where can people learn more about your work?

Okay, so the biggest takeaway and, and, and this is going to land hard. And the science bears this out. When a wife has been sexually unfaithful to her husband and sexual disgust is in play, which it very often is, the person who was an object to the other man is constantly in the presence of the betrayed husband. And mentally, you're talking mentally on their mind. And that's, that's something. The closest thing that I could compare that to as a, as a, as a marker would be if a betrayed wife had to be in the presence of the other woman, that would presumably make her recovery infinitely more complex. And then the, the work that we do, I collaborate with several other people in the support community and it's research for betrayedmen.com so research for betrayedmen.com all jumbled together. And we have a blog, we have various articles that we post, we present the research. We are doing everything we can to bring awareness of what men speak about and how it aligns with the scientific research that has been available for three decades.

Jesse, thank you so much. We've been talking with Dr. Jesse Piles. Jesse, you are a trove of information. I just want to say thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Any final comments for our listeners today?

I appreciate the opportunity to be here. I appreciate the opportunity to, to speak with you, to speak with men who have this experience. I would say that no two men experience betrayal the same way. But we would be honored to walk through men's experiences with them. That's either we offer individual support, we offer group support. All of that can be found on.

Researchforbetradmen.Com researchforbetraydmen.com Dr. Jesse Pyles, thank you so much for being with us today. Absolute pleasure talking with you.

Thank you very much. Dr. Skinner, it's been a pleasure.

Something surround you it's like you're shining, you're staring.