Facing Fear: What’s Holding You Back from Healing and Connection? (Episode #75)

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Something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh.

Something's around. Welcome to the human intimacy podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner, Marianne Michaelis. Marianne, today's topic, fear. And I want to just give a little bit of interest to this and why it matters to me personally, and then I'd love to hear what you have to say. I have been thinking about how fear dictates almost everything that we do. Fear of being deceived, fear of being caught. Fear of not knowing how to do something and feeling like a failure. So if you are listening today, I'm going to ask a question. How much fear do you live in day to day? Marianne, that's my intro. What's yours?

I am so glad you said fear of. I think you said not knowing something. Something.

How to do something, to do something.

And I. I've been stuck all week long and I've got this question, Dr. Skinner, and I'm going to guess that our listeners or our viewers might have it as well. I know it's not exactly on our topic of fear, but last week when we were so dying, minds are wanting to know. Dr. Skinner, last week in our podcast you referenced roguing potatoes. Yeah. All week long my brain has been like, did I? Because last week in the podcast I was like, did he say Rogan, what's wrong?

Yeah. So want me to tell you what it is?

Well, yeah, but last week you said that and I like hit this. Like, I don't know what that is. Did I hear that right? I don't know what. But we kept on going and it never got addressed. But all week long my brain's been going like, what is roving potatoes? I mean, I can Guess what it might be. Yeah. I think as we're talking about fear and fear of not knowing how to do something. This is a great. Even just like being able to say, I didn't know what that was. Could I even speak up and ask about it? And I'm curious. My brain's been working on it all week. So, yeah, jump in there.

Okay, so this has nothing to do with fear, but it has to do with something about me. So for two summers during high school, we would meet at a gas station, and we would get up and we'd meet at 6 or 6:30, depending on how far we're traveling. We'd get in a truck or a Suburban and we would drive about 45 minutes to an hour. And then we would walk up and down the potato fields with a shovel. And when potatoes are. They actually have what's called leaf roll. And that's when the leaf begins to roll and discolor. And if it's not taken out of the potato field, it can actually ruin the entire crop after it's harvested. So it's called leaf roll. And so we would walk up and down potato fields. We take five or six rows of the potato field, and we would take out the potatoes that were starting to show the discoloration, what they call leaf roll. So it wouldn't ruin the farmer's crop when it had been harvested.

Okay, let me clarify this. So you would get up at 6 or 7 in the morning, you would drive for an hour, and then you'd.

Walk up and down rows Monday through Saturday. In. In 55 days in the field, I recorded 555 hours. That does not include travel time.

Okay, so we're going to tie. I want to tie that. I think this ties in. And so leaf roll is a disease.

It. Is it that? Yes.

It can wipe out a whole field of potatoes.

If you harvest it, it then can. It can literally ruin an entire crop.

So there's multiple parts I think that we can tie into this. That as a farmer, as a potato farmer, I am fearful of leaf roll.

Leaf. Oh, for sure. I mean, if you harvest the crop and the leaf world, which is really a bad potato, and if you've ever smelled a rotten potato, oh, it's awful. Take. Take that exponentially because it's in the entire cellar. There's nothing worse than a rotten potato smell. I mean, I. I have PTSD from the smell of rotten potatoes.

So you have a fear. You have something that motivates you to make sure that potatoes never go rotten and you don't go near them. Oh.

So, yes. So the reason why I have that is we would be walking up and down the field. But one farmer, he took his previous year's potatoes that were excess and he put them in this big pit. And we had to rogue around that and that walking around it, the stench was so bad. Marianne, I still to this day have a recollection of rotten potatoes that I don't like.

It's just your brain has a neural pathway that says avoid that at all costs. So I think that ties into what we're talking about today. But you had something that was important enough to you to drive for an hour, to go out and spend 550 hours walking in the hot sun in a middle of a field. And this farmer also had incentive. Motivation. Fear of leaf roll. You wanted money. This is all about motivation. As we're talking about fear. Fear is a huge motivator. It motivated that farmer to hire you. Fear of not having money or meeting your needs motivated you to do hard work.

Yeah. So my first year, I mean, it was perfect conditions and we were so, so busy. I. I walked literally. When you. We would leave on Monday, we'd get back in the evening, about seven or eight at night. And that happened Monday through Friday. And then Saturday we would get up, do the same thing, and we would go till 5, 6, 7 in the evening. So it was literally six days a week for my summer. So that, that was what I experienced for two summers.

And you were how old?

I was 15 and 16. 16, 17.

Okay. So you learned how to do a lot of really hard work because it was important to you. Because that doesn't sound like easy work or pleasant.

No, it's not easy. But we had a group of guys and there was a lot of fun memories and fond memories as well. But the concept of fear. So the potatoes themselves, the farmer themselves, if they didn't take care of that and they lose a crop, they're talking millions of losses. So financially that's huge, right? Extremely big. And for me, it was a nice job. And I learned how to work in a potato field, which is maybe not the most ideal, but I absolutely will never trade those experiences. What I learned.

Thank you so much for sharing that, Dr. Skinner.

Yeah.

Your brain can now rest.

Yeah. So now you can rest. Now let's put it into application in a few other areas that we talk with in every relationship, in every part of our life. Let me just speak to fear in as many ways as I can for a second. What would you call social Anxiety.

Fear.

Fear, for sure. Right. Fear of saying something wrong. Fear of being ridiculed. Fear of doing something that makes you look like a fool. Right. What would you call when you are talking with somebody and you're afraid you're going to say something wrong, or you.

Don'T know what roguing is, or you.

Don'T know what roguing is. So. So a fear of. I'm not. Maybe there's something. Does everyone know what roguing is? No.

Did I hear that right?

Yeah, you did hear it right. So then you went chatgpt. What is roguing? That is what we do today. Right. At the end of the day, I could go through sexual betrayal. Right. The fear that I don't know the person that I'm married to. Let's look at the other side. The fear of being cop. So now I've got this fear, both directions. And as a couple, the fear that we don't know how to solve this problem. Maybe it's going to lead to divorce. And so this fear that we don't know how to have difficult conversations. We don't know what to say. So I feel like maybe I'm a failure because I don't know how to do something physiologically. Marianne, you know what that does to us?

That just kicks right on into our autonomic nervous system. We are, as I'm hearing you talk about this, you're talking about couples that are stuck in fight orf flight and.

And don't know how to get out.

Yeah.

And then the person who's been living in a deceptive world of hidden behaviors, that fear of being caught. So when someone is caught, then the lies, the deception, the minimization or gaslighting as we often refer to it, I really think the root of that is the fear of being seen. And when we see people in recovery, they're no longer living in fear. They're actually living in confidence and hope. Because what you see is what you get. This is me.

I'm wondering if it's more than fear of just being seen. I'm wondering if it's fear of consequences.

Oh, fear of loss, for sure.

When I have done something to hurt you and you find out about it, you might want to not continue the relationship because you don't trust me anymore. I think that fear is really tied into a lack of control for the outcome. So if I'm controlling the narrative with my lies and I can keep it hidden, I'm okay. But the minute it's out in the open, oh, there's so much to lose. And so I think it's really this fear of lack of control.

Right. And so now I've lost control, which also is how you're going to respond. So from a physiological perspective, if we looked at fear, fear is our body's way of saying, I don't know how the. How to deal with this. I don't know what the outcome is going to be if I'm safe. Looking at that from the lens of somebody who's been betrayed or somebody who's been deceived, I don't know what to do with what I'm experiencing here. And so I begin to feel unsafe. Fight or flight. And if it's really intense, I might even freeze. So from an autonomic perspective, yes. Fear is our body's way of saying, you need to prepare for fight, to flee, or it's too intense, you might need to shut down.

Yeah. I think there's so many levels, and I want to just raise up. Usually I'm like, let's zoom this down and slow it out. But zoom it out or slow it down. I want to go up a little bit more. Today, though, I think we're living in a culture in a time where fear is becoming more and more present, just even culturally, even, like the borders of our nation. I've talked to several people lately who've said, you know, I wanted to go to la, but there's riots, and because of the color of my skin, I'm afraid to fly. Or somebody who travels all over the world. And they came in and they were detained at the border for no reason because of the color of their skin. And the questions, they're saying, I don't know that I'm going to be even traveling anymore. We're living in more of a culture of fear, I think, at least in the US than we ever have before. And we look at, how does that impact us? How does that impact what I'm doing? How does that impact how I'm spending my time or who I'm spending my time with? It brings in, like, isolation and avoidance.

Because the data is simply overwhelming. There's so much information that it begins to flood our autonomic nervous system. And so, yes, we are living in a heightened state of stress. Whether that's economically, whether it's boundaries or borders you're talking about, or sometimes it's just with the people around us, we don't know, are you trustworthy? Can I trust you? And when we look at social media, and I really believe it is an instigator of this because we're getting inundated with so much information, then, I mean, if you just took the news. I heard this a long time ago, but people who watch the 10 o' clock news, I don't even know if that exists anymore because I haven't watched it. But those who watch the 10 o' clock news by research are more depressed than those who don't. Well, what is it about the 10 o' clock news? This. This thing happened. And this thing happened. And this thing happened right before you go to bed. Right. So all of a sudden I've got this adrenaline, this fear inside of me. All what do I do with that? Now go relax and go to sleep.

So let me take that a little further. So we're looking at, if we're looking at, we've got this cultural fear and, you know, talking about our economy, talking about inflation, talking about finances, there's so many things that we can have different concerns, fears and worries over. And they may be just kind of like ratcheting up. Here we are a little bit of ratcheting up. Sue Johnson talks about, you know, when we are in more of this hyper, vigilant, anxious state, you know, somebody can say something to us and what normally would just come through like a gentle breeze and we're just like, oh, that was kind of annoying. When we're already ramped up, we respond differently. We respond like it's a hurricane. And this absolutely applies to betrayal and in our relationships. But I think it's important to also just look at the whole context of this whole system of where we're at and understanding that we are living in much more heightened fear than I think we maybe have for quite a while.

Yeah, I completely agree. So I want to go down a channel here for a second. Fear. If we really break it down, what is has to be an interpretation of some event or events. You would not feel fear if you didn't have a previous experience.

Right, right. If I was living in a country where there were no police with lights, if somebody pulled up behind me with an ice cream truck, like, I'd have no concept. I wouldn't know. My heart wouldn't start rapidly beating. I wouldn't know it's the police and be anxious.

So fear is an interpretation of a previous event. So when I'm an infant or a child and I'm a toddler walking around, if I see a snake, by the way, I have an incredible picture of a rattlesnake I saw the other day. Maybe I'll find a way to post that. It's. I mean, it was huge rattlesnake not too far from.

Did you feel fear?

Oh, for sure. I mean, when you're walking and you hear about five feet from you, you don't not have that emotion. But had a toddler been with me, the toddler would not have felt fear because the toddler didn't know what that meant.

So I have a personal connection with that. A couple of years ago, we were out hiking and going along the trail. My husband was behind me, and I just kept on going. And my husband said, did you see that? And I was like, no. And he said, like five inches from my foot, there was a rattlesnake. I didn't see it. I just kept walking. He was behind me, freaking out. And so exactly what we don't see or know or intuitively pick up, why would we have fear? So I think you're saying fear can be learned.

Yes. But once we have experienced fear, something has. A dog has bitten you. I've shared that story of me being bitten by a dog in the past. When you've been bitten by a dog, rattlesnake, you hear something and instantly you have what's called a reaction sequence, from literally a stimulus down into a response. Feeling the fear.

Sure. This is your brain. It's encoded and said, I know what this is. This is danger, Pay attention, run away, whatever.

Yes. And this is where I think our society has become over fearful. We become so fearful because we don't know what's safe and what's not safe anymore. In some cases, maybe even desensitized because there's so much around us that we've been inundated. Like, should I be afraid of this? Should I not be afraid of this? What do I do? I'll give you a few examples of that. I was talking with somebody who was related to sexuality. That's just what men do. I guess that's just what men do, Marianne. They, they, they do something sexual or, oh, that's just how this person is. And so I, I tolerate it because that's how this person is. And I'm not even talking sexual there. Maybe they're angry or maybe there's something. So that's just who they are. And so I almost am inoculated with, oh, I guess that's the way it is.

Yeah. And let me. I want to speak to that, that first example you gave Dr. Skinner, because even if, as you said, that, oh, that's how men are or whatever that was that you Said, hearing that instantly, I can feel the invalidation. Oh, so does that mean everything that I'm feeling about that isn't valid? Like, what happens to me when I'm saying, this isn't okay with me? I feel betrayed. My trust has been broken. I feel so hurt and heartbroken and scared about the future. And you're saying, well, this is just pretty normal. Oh, okay. If this is normal, then what do I do with all of this that's going on inside of me?

A lot of confusion because I'm feeling one way and being told that I shouldn't feel that way. And so now my interpretation. Am I wrong? So I have a lot of confusion. And let's look at this from the other side. When we look at it from a sexual perspective, we are sexual beings. And so a child having early sexual experiences is not atypical. But now let's say that they're being told that their sexuality is wrong or bad. Now what? How do I make sense of that? Because it feels this way, but now it's bad and that I'm bad. And so now there's this fear of being caught. And that's what I see with a lot of people that I've worked with who have been trapped in unwanted sexual behaviors is because they have been told one thing and they're like, okay, now I'm so confused. And now I've got the secret, which, again, creates fear. Fear of being caught, fear being discovered. And so we live in a world, Marianne, where we're so confused, and then what comes in is this fear. And it could be a fear of being caught. It could be a fear of being socially rejected. But when we pause and say, what are we so afraid of? Let's just say, for example, I'm afraid. I don't know who my spouse is anymore. This is a common thing that we hear in our office all the time. I don't know who they are. Are they capable of this? Are they capable of that? Well, they've done this. So where are the boundaries?

And I think what you're saying is, I don't have a template. What I thought I knew is safe. Suddenly that, like, I thought that was a safe path, and suddenly there's rattlesnakes all over the place, and I had no idea. And I'm dancing among rattlesnakes now.

Well, are there or aren't there? Right? I mean, because again, I don't know. So maybe there aren't as many rattlesnakes as I think, because my mind goes, worst case, Scenario, because that's how our bodies function. And maybe it was just a little tiny rattler, but wait a second. There has to be more rattlers around. Cause there's a tiny one, right?

I think this is so important just to dissect even a little bit more, because we're talking about the validity of fear versus the. What I mean by that is our bodies are equipped to have natural responses to certain things. The hair on the back of our head, our gut feels uncomfortable. Our bodies are listening and hearing and picking up data in our bodies before we can even encode it in our prefrontal cortex. Our brain is already figuring out. It's already filtering and saying, this is safe. This is not safe. That's happening at such a subconscious level for us. And there is a part where we do have to sometimes stop and say, hold on a second. Do I listen to my body, or do I engage my prefrontal cortex and recognize what's going on? And then I need to pull it apart and really understand what's going on?

And I think what you're talking about is a really important solution. See, if our amygdala, which is the fear center of the brain, our emotional center, what happens there, Marianne, to me, is so incredibly important, because my fear could overwhelm my body to the point where I stop thinking. I stopped really analyzing a situation, because I have come to the conclusion already that I know the answer. I know this is happening when it may not be happening. And that's the confusing part, because I think I know, but maybe I don't know. And so when we have grown up in an environment where there's a lot of fear, maybe it's a childhood issue, and we don't know who to trust. And then we experience those things as an adult, and it's a trigger of the past. And now it feels like everything. There's not safety anywhere. Everything's a threat. When we slow down and allow the rest of our brain and body to connect, then we get more questions, more observations, more insight, more awareness, rather than instantly drawing conclusions. To me, that is a part of the therapeutic process that we have to do with our clients to help them separate from the fear that is overwhelming them. Because when you live in fear, you're not living in a state of mind where you feel calm or relaxed. You can't. Your body doesn't relax in that state.

I absolutely agree with you. And one other maybe facet or way that I want to look at this. I see fear as a gift. If we can slow down and say, my body is designed to give me information, and right now it's giving me a gift of some information. Now, I can doubt myself, I can listen to myself, or I can slow down and I can look at it, but when fear shows up, it is a gift. My body's giving me something, saying, something's not right, pay attention. And rather than pushing it away, avoiding it, saying, like, I'm so stupid, I shouldn't feel that way, second guessing myself. Can I look at it and say, oh, this is a gift. Yeah, me understand it.

And what's interesting about what you just said is if I look at it that way, then that is an observation. What am I supposed to learn from this feeling of fear? So it is a gift because it's designed to teach us that something feels off, accurate or inaccurate. I'm still feeling it.

So if we break that down, because it's going into our amygdala, it's going into our. Our part of our brain that is designed specifically for survival.

Yeah.

That's the first filter that it's running through. And so if we look at and say, oh, I'm feeling this and this is my body is tr is red flagging it. There's something about survival here. Yeah, it's a gift.

So let's be very specific here for a second. One of the things that I have really enjoyed watching throughout my entire career is people who confront their fears by either confessing or taking accountability and responsibility. Yeah. Talking with other people. One of my favorites is when individuals have this tremendous fear. What if I go to this 12 step meeting? Or what if I tell my spouse? What if they can't handle. What if I get to that meeting and I know somebody and walking them through that fear and then they go, face that initial fear, and then a few months later they're like, this was the best thing I've ever done in my entire life. So what had prevented them for sometimes years of coming clean now is like, I am free. I don't have to live in this place of darkness and deception and that double life that comes with that world. That, to me, Marianne, is how fear can inhibit and prohibit growth. And when we do overcome that fear and we jump, literally pole vault over that fear into that place, the freedom is powerful and palpable.

I agree with you. It's one of the most beautiful parts, I think, of our work is watching people overcome their obstacles. I love looking at fear through this as you're talking about, like, it's the getting over. It's the pushing through. But if we stop and really look at it and say, hold on a second, I'm feeling fear, can I slow down and say, what's that fear trying to help me with? In IFS language, internal family systems language, fear is a protect. So if I say this fear is showing up and it's trying to protect me for something, what's it trying to protect me from? Is it protecting me from hurt, from pain, from being rejected, from being abandoned, from being alone, from feeling unloved? Like, what is the purpose of what's showing up here? We need to understand fear comes through our amygdala, our survival center, and then it goes up, and it's not our prefrontal cortex, which is our logic and our reasoning and our thinking. And so we need to say, I notice I'm feeling fear. And then that's our name it to tame it. We're naming the emotion, we're recognizing it, and then we want to engage that prefrontal cortex and start looking at it and understanding it. There are obviously life and death situations where we don't have the time to do that. But a lot of times when we're talking about relationally, we do have times to stop and say, hold on a second. What's my fear underneath this? Because what I find is we often have a lie. We're telling ourselves a story, or there's a belief under there. If this happens, no one will love me. I'll be sad and lonely the rest of my life. And I love to confront my clients and say, well, that's not true. Let's talk about this person in your life. Let's talk about these people that you've told me about who love you deeply and who you love deeply. And then we'll go, wait a second. I'm living my life running on this narrative, this script, that I'm going to be alone and sad and lonely, and that's really not my truth. And so then we can start to really do some work.

And yet, if we don't challenge it, then we do stay in that place of fear, and we really get stuck there. And then what happens with the growth of anxiety is it grows and grows and grows to the point where you don't ever question it or challenge it. You just accept it as a truth. I will be rejected or my partner will always be this way. This is how they're. This is how they are. And so when we live in a world of fear, let's look at it from the other side. What is the opposite of fear, I think it's hope, and I would say safety. And with fear, you can't determine if you feel safe or not. And if I feel safe, then I see predictability, I see accountability. What you see is what you get, who I am. So for me, when I feel fear, I don't feel safe because my body doesn't feel that way.

So here's where I think you're right. I think you're talking about that survival level. I think it's more the prefrontal cortex, Whereas safety and fear in that space, I think you're right. I think it's talking about just that, can I survive? Like that inherent internal survivability versus can I think about this mentally for the future?

I would say. I would say, Marianne, that hope is also a construct that fits with fear. If I feel fear, I think hope is still there.

Well, I think it's still there, but I think it's a different level. I think it's more of like the prefrontal cortex level versus the amygdala level is what I say.

Sure, but safety, Safety may be the dominant, but hope is a process that maybe I'm mistaken. Maybe as I go to this 12 step meeting, the hope is that I will develop friendships and that I'll overcome my fears. Right. And so that may be a byproduct of facing your fears. Is that the hope is that it can be different. Yeah. So from a clinical perspective, I think fear is way more prevalent and not addressed. Because if I said to our listeners, name me your top three fears, write them down, they probably wouldn't have a hard time doing that. I am afraid of losing a child, my spouse's behavior. I'm afraid that people are going to see me. I'm afraid that I might have an uncontrollable addiction. I can't stop sugar.

I'm afraid that I will, if I do anything, if I leave this relationship or if I push the relationship, that I'll end up alone and no one will want me. I hear that one so often. And so we may say I have this fear. But fear of being alone may be a greater fear than facing what's going on in the relationship. And so I may stay stuck there, like it may be a secondary gain. It's easier for me to stay here than to face being alone in the future. That's a huge one.

So fear, I think, is very pervasive in our culture. And the saddest thing about fear is that we don't realize it's fear. And it then dictates for years and years and years of our lives because we haven't addressed the root fears that maybe came early in life. And so the challenge is, how do we address our fears? Or sometimes they're unspoken. We don't even know what we're so afraid of, but we feel fear. And I think we genetically can pass down fear. I'll give you an example of this. I was talking with a friend many, many years ago. We lived in the same neighborhood for quite a few years. And she said something really profound to me. She said, I grew up in a family where we were afraid. I mean, money was a big deal because our grandparents really struggled with money. And so it was passed down. And it's like, no, we can't do that. We can't buy that kind of a car, or we can't go on that kind of a vacation because then we will be taking too big of a risk and we can't take financial risks. You could lose everything. Now that fear had grown with them, primarily because their grandparents grew up during the Depression.

Yeah.

And so everything is extremely financially tight and conservative and everything like. And so she almost felt guilty going on a trip. The fear that I'm going to run out of money, lose my house and I'll be homeless.

And it was so ingrained. It was her culture. And she probably didn't even superconsciously think about it. It was just the script that was running in that had been pre downloaded before she even showed up. And it was the flavor of everything and that she grew up with.

And the funnest part was when she took a trip to Europe. And like, that was fun. And you just, it was fun to hear her just describe the story of how she countered it over time. But it took time to get there because there was also a counterculture like, can you go on this trip? Can you afford this trip? And so that's when society adds in to our fears. Right. Because of the mindset. So I think our society can actually intensify our fears. And I think it is even worse when you get online and you hear about this and this and this, and you're overwhelming your autonomic nervous system. I would suggest if you feel a ton of fear, a lot of anxiety, turn down or off your media for a few days and notice the tension and tightness in your body.

I have a very. I just want to add one part of that. One of the things that I just intellectually want to bring to that part of this conversation is I realized Years ago that radio hosts who are conflictive, you know, political commentators, people are paid. Our news is paid by advertisers. And it's about ratings. So if I can create conflict, if I can create fear, that grabs our attention because we are safety seeking. And so wait, I need to find out about this. Recently there were some riots in la. And the reality is, my understanding is it was a small area, but things get blown out of proportion oftentimes by our media because they want the ratings, which means money, which means advertising. And so really looking and saying, like, what are the inputs that I'm bringing into my life and maybe what's their motivation? Some critical thinking about what it is and the whys behind it.

That's so interesting you say that. So I want to give an example of this that just. I was reading a book called Survivors Club by Ben Sherwood many, many years ago and the author talked about plane crashes. Now, for some people, they can't get on a plane because they're afraid that they're going to die. And the author said, most people don't realize this, but more people die from car accidents. Not even close, in contrast with airplanes. Then people say, well, I don't care, you know, if I'm in an accident, then I'll automatically die. And the author said, do you know that most people survive plane crashes? Well, I'd never heard that before and I'm like that really. But that's actually true that plane crashes. Many people, not obviously, not all. We have some cases even recently where people have lost their life. We live in a world where if I watch the news and I heard about that, I might not ever get on a plane because I'm afraid it's not safe. And yet I'll go drive a car. And so we can create our own prisons by the fear that we have. And when we do, what we don't realize is what we're missing. The opportunities, the beauty of maybe another location, or the fear of being coming clean, or the fear of giving our partner a chance or a fear of how society is and how society. Right. I can start to listen to you, Marianne, and we might have a different, say, political view, but if I really get to know you, we probably have way more in common than we ever imagined.

Yeah, I love Dr. Skinner. I think coming back to the conversations as we're talking about, we can talk globally and culturally and then coming back into especially our relationships, especially for our listeners and our readers. I'd love to invite you to think about what are the conversations that you fear what's the conversation that you need to have or the conversations? And what is the fear that's holding you back from it? Because as you said, I a hundred percent agree. When we sit down and really talk to others and we allow ourselves to be seen, we connect through our emotions. We all have sadness, we all have joys, we all have griefs. And those are places as human beings that we connect. Fears are built into us. Oftentimes when we begin to see people as others, they're not like us, they're the others. And then we begin to have distrust, but slowing it back down and saying what are the fears that I'm dealing with right now? Like what, what is holding me back? And, and really like maybe what's their purpose? How are they trying to help me and are they really helping me? I like find it, face it and flip it is, is a quick way to look at that. Let me find the fear, let me face it and challenge it. Is it true? And then face it and say what is really true? And what do I want to do with that?

You just walk through a process that could really be its own. You know, literally step by step by step process of how to face our fears. The only thing I would add to that is when you get into a mental space where you can assess your fears and you have that kind of a structure that you just said, okay, let's, let's identify, let's assess it. What's it doing? Is it true? Is it not true? When you go through that process and you do it often enough, you often realize that the things that we're afraid of rarely do they ever happen. They may be sometimes worse than we fear. Right? That's a possibility. But a majority of the time I heard this, don't know if it's completely true. They say that 90% of the things that we worry about never happen.

I agree with that.

Accurate, inaccurate. I believe that's probably pretty true.

20% of homicides are from strangers. 80% of homicides are people we know. Yet how often are we worried about some stranger that we don't know? And so that, that tracks for me. But I want to talk just about one other aspect with this and, and I think you touched on it briefly earlier. But we are inundated with information and there is often this analysis paralysis. And I see this with my clients, I see this with friends, people looking for, let's say for therapy, for help, for betrayal, trauma and unwanted sexual acting out behaviors. There's so much information, it's like where do I go? Who do I go to? What's the theory that I need? What are the interventions that I need? There's. It can feel so daunting. I'm going to trust my life and my future of this relationship with the therapist and how do I even know where to find it or who to find? It can feel so huge and overwhelming and that in itself can be the obstacle. I don't know where to go. So I'm going to get shut down and just kind of frozen because it's too much.

So what would you suggest if it's feeling like too much?

I think this is where we do need people that we can trust. And so I would suggest renting somebody else's cognitive space and saying, hey, can you help me with this? This feels so overwhelming. I had potential clients, next door neighbor call me this week and say I'm just reaching out for some information. My neighbor's going through this betrayal and it's so bad. And they're in such a state of crisis. I'm just trying to help make some phone calls because they can't right now. Yeah. And so starting at least there with other supports.

Yeah. And so now we're talking about having someone else to help us regulate our fears, what we call co regulation, dealing with someone else to help us with that. But might I suggest, and this is just something I truly believe the best outcome is when we identify our fears, give them a voice and we learn how to do that process. So yes, I may need to borrow someone else's brain until I can, but ultimately it needs to be me. Looking at what am I so afraid of here? And I, I found many years ago an individual who had really been hesitant to get group support. Just so hesitant. And we worked together for quite a while and finally I said, you know, I just want to share some research that has, as I've been reviewing recently and it had to do with successful people and overcoming any addictive behavior. And you know, the research alone on going to a 12 step group does it, it's not great. Right. It's not showing the most phenomenal outcomes. But what is showing phenomenal outcomes is working the steps, having support and accountability. And I said of the things, and I listed out what's called the recovery capital, the things that people do to overcome addictions. And I said of these things, which ones are you doing? And literally listed many of them except accountability and group support. I said what's preventing you from taking those steps? And he did a self analysis and finally determined I need to go do that. And that was like this shift and it was so perceptible. It was like, I didn't know I could do that. And he had. Finally, he's talking about it. And I just saw so much acceleration in the healing and the recovery process.

I wish I had that magic formula, Dr. Skinner, because I do have clients who we have these conversations over and over and there's something that. Where they're stuck and it is a challenge. I can't jump into their brain and help them pull out what it is. And. And so I love that you were able to help him walk through that. I think that's so important to have that outside help, because there is. I want to go back to your earlier question. I do think that we can, if we can get into that cognitive place, I think it's important to. To notice where we're at and have some self compassion. If I'm overwhelmed, if I can't function, it's okay for me to say right now I'm overwhelmed and I can't function and to give myself some grace in that space. But I can't get to my prefrontal cortex if my body is so shut down and if I'm in a frozen state, I can't think, I can't function, even connect with myself mentally to make the decisions that I need. So may need to slow down. I may need to just be with the emotion, let the emotions be there. There's an also an exercise that I think can be helpful and it's worries versus concern buckets. It's taking piece of paper, drawing a line in the middle of it and saying, is this a worry or is this a concern? Or is there things I can't control that I have to just let go of and give to my higher power. Concerns are things that I can say, oh, here's one thing I can do, here's a tangible thing I can do. And that at least can help me sort of sift through the heaviness and give myself maybe a starting place. But I do think that allowing the emotions and giving myself some kindness in this place. You're really overwhelmed, Marianne. It makes a lot of sense. What do you need right now to just help you understand what's going on in your body and sit with it and come back into the present and what are you going to need to help you maybe move through this? Like, those are some introspective questions that I think that can help us in that space.

And you know, Marianne, there's a lot that we could talk on on this topic. We've talked previously in a previous podcast where we talked a little bit about the fear of intimacy. And to me, that's kind of maybe as we get ready to close up shop today. Unfortunately, people, I use that phrase fear of intimacy, they typically think fear of sex. And if I could reclaim the word intimacy as letting people to see us. So fear of letting people in to see me, that is what I really think we need to conquer. Who, who are we? What's happening inside of us? And when we are at one with ourselves, we allow people to see us. Because I'm not afraid of what you see. Even the dark spots, even the places that aren't perfect, my mistakes, those parts of me so acknowledging I don't know how to do something or I, I made a mistake or, you know, my anger has been over the top or whatever it may be. It's the choice to be a better human being. And when I am living in fear, I'm not reaching my fullest potential because I'm living in a state of protection, fight, flight or freeze. It's not the ideal place to live. It's the deceptive place to live. I'm living in a world where I'm not able to have human intimacy. If we're going to reach and aspire to be better, then all fears have to be understood and dealt with. Otherwise we will be dictated how we live our lives by our fear. And that would be my greatest concern for all of us, is to face our fears so we can form true and deep intimacy.

As you're saying that, I'm thinking about just going back to fears of survival mechanism. If I'm walking through a minefield, I need fear. I need to be very aware and alert and there may be some present danger. And in some situations, for some of our listeners, some of our clients, fear is an important part of figuring out once again, am I safe? Going back to what you talked about, that opposite, am I safe here? And if I'm in a relationship where I'm walking through minefield and it's pretty explosive, I have to find other places where I can re regulate and connect with myself and connect with others so that I can navigate that.

Okay, so Mary, I'm going to leave our listeners and leave you with something to think about and you tell me if I'm wrong. Okay? When I have appropriate boundaries, what happens to fear? I'm going to say it goes down. I don't have to live in fear. When I understand who I am and I create appropriate boundaries. It does not mean that this person I'm with or this situation is going to be resolved the way I want it to. It means that I understand myself well enough to say, this is how I'm choosing to live. Either you can join me here or not in a relationship or my personal boundaries in overcoming an addictive behavior. This is who I am. I'm not going to live in fear of my addiction or how you choose to respond. So I would say healthy boundaries reduces fear.

Do I get to respond to that now, or is this like, we're thinking about?

Like, you can. You can respond, man, I'd love. I'm sure the listeners want to hear your response.

You know, Dr. Skinner, that boundaries are near and dear to my heart. And I absolutely agree with that. I. I believe the way that I look at boundaries is they're not consequences. They're not punishments. They are created with me figuring out what I need, what I'm not okay with and what I need. And boundaries are all about me creating that safety. And that might be. If there's a minefield over here, I might have to have some boundaries for some space so that I'm getting my support. When we're talking about attachment, sometimes our partner can't give us the safe attachment that we need. And so we need to find that other places. And so that might be the boundary of I can't. I can't be as vulnerable as I want or need to with you right now. Because it's not safe. And I need to get support in other healthy places. So, yes, I love boundaries. And you. You know, I can talk all day long about boundaries.

Yeah. So proactively, then, do I have to live in fear? My answer to the question is, is there's appropriate times to be afraid. But if we are living in a world where we constantly feel fear, there's some work that we can do. And we've talked about some of those strategies today. But go talk with a therapist, get help, so you don't live in that state. Because constant state of fear. Anxiety begins to weaken the body. Because your body's not getting a calm that it needs for healthy living. Healthy food, digestion, sleep. Everything's in a state of stress. So we have to address fears. And that's really my hope in talking about this today, is we can't live in a constant state of fear and not have consequences. Eventually, it will catch up to us.

Yeah. I want to end with another personal story. I lived in Guatemala for a while, and it was during Their civil war. There was one night that we were coming home and somebody was dropping us off. As we were getting into our home, I was opening the door with the key and a car drove up and six guys jumped out with guns. And they said, this is an assault. And as I froze, what was going through my mind was a million things like, should I throw open the door and throw myself in? But I turned and the guy put his gun on me and said, don't move. Obviously, I'm okay. Obviously we walked out and we were okay. However, this experience that I had back in the 90s was something that has caused, you know, out at night. Like, my body has heightened. Like, am I safe? Look around a little bit more. And the reason why I bring this up is we can have some experiences where our body has reactions and we might need to do some trauma work. We might need to have some help resolving some things because we like. It's a valid fear. I went through something that created some PTSD that was pretty significant, and it can show up and haunt me. But there's value in doing trauma work around our fears as well. Because when I walk out, that's one time, one moment in my life that has never happened again in my entire life, but that one time, it's flavored a lot. And so my brain has that pathway. When I walk out at night, am I safe?

Yeah, I am safe cognitively, but the fear is still there in certain situations. It's triggering.

Yes. Yes.

So I'm going to validate that and honoring that. Yes. So I know we need to end today. So in the next podcast, I'm going to ask you to prepare how it actually resolved. Not just I'm okay, but in the next podcast. So to our listeners, stay tuned for the exciting finish.

This is the Rogan potatoes.

This is the Rogan Potatoes. For you. It's next time we're going to finish the story of what actually happened to make it so you were safe, hopefully. To our listeners, we've given you a few things to think about today on Fear. We thank you for your time. We genuinely appreciate it and we're excited to let you know that upcoming we've got some fun things that we're working on. If you're not on email list, send us your email@questions humanintimacy.com and we will get you on our email list where we announce new activities and we'll start announcing more of those on our podcast. But questionsumanintimacy.com if you're interested on being on our mailing list.

All right, just as we wrap up, thank you to everybody for being here, and may you go forth with hope and joy and curiosity and looking for the gifts.

All right. Thank you very much. Have a great week. We'll see everybody next week.

Bye.

Bye. Cam, It's like you're shining, you're staring.