Facing the Storm: Emotional Ownership as a Path to Healing (Podcast #82)

There's something about you that I can't.

Help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh.

Welcome to the human intimacy podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Michaelis, licensed clinical social worker. Maryanne. As we approach today's topic, as we were talking before we began recording the podcast, one of the core elements that we find when we do our work is people in relationships feel a need to monitor, to talk with their partner. They're scared sometimes they'll do it in ways that seem over controlling. So today we're going to be talking about this emotional ownership of learning how to be with our own emotions. And so what are your initial thoughts on this topic, Marianne?

You know, Dr. Skinner, I still remember being in one of my trainings with Stephanie Carnes, and I remember her talking about safety seeking. And I think it's really important as we start this topic. I'd never heard that term before, but it was kind of like a click moment, like, oh, that makes sense. So when we are constantly trying to figure out what's my partner doing? What are they doing? Wanting to control a situation. And this is something we see so often with betrayal. It's a trauma response that if I can control everything that's happening, then I can guarantee that I won't be hurt. I can guarantee that I'm safe if I'm controlling it. So understanding that this is a PTSD reaction, it's a trauma reaction. And it also makes sense when we realize, oh, all of your trust has been broken and you're trying to figure out if you're safe. It makes sense that we'd say, if I can control what they're doing and I know every single thing, then I'll be okay. It's also pretty smothering and not a really healthy place to be, but it's a pretty common reaction.

And I hear you say that, and I can hear people who've just discovered their partner's betrayal. And the mind is like, no, I have to do this because I can't function unless I know what my spouse is doing. And I understand that what you just said is like, we want to shift away from that. But in the beginning, I often find that what we want to say, it's a natural response long term. It overwhelms everybody in the system and makes everybody tired. So for me, this emotional ownership, the topic we're talking about today also fits with the concept of locus of control. This is something that I've talked about in my book, Treating Trauma from Sexual Betrayal, and I often use in my trainings. It's also used in business concepts. Right. It's the ability to recognize what I can influence and what I can't influence. And when we take our own emotions, Marianne and I say things like, well, you made me. And this can go both directions. Right. You made me xyz, you made me act out. You made me angry, you made me. Interesting phrase. You made me true and false. Right. Your behaviors can influence my emotions. I can feel sad, I can feel disgusted, I can feel embarrassed. I can feel ashamed by the way that we are interacting. I still have to claim that ownership of how I choose to respond to whatever that behavior is.

Yeah. I think that wording right there is so important because when someone makes me, that puts me more of In a victim place where I don't have power or control. And so even that shifting to. I felt when this happened, I felt that ownership is really empowering. Now, shifting back. I love that you're talking about the locus of control, because when you talk about that in my mind, when I hear those words, I think about me standing and kind of like, how far out can my arms reach? Anything that's within my arm's breadth, that my body can touch or manage, that is my locus of control. I don't have control over what my partner does or what my children or my friends or family members do. I can't control it. I often want to, but I have to come back and say, oh, wait, what's within my own realm of what I can really, truly control? And that's really just me.

And from my perspective, while we may be talking about this from a sexual betrayal lens, we can take it from any area of a relationship where we feel like someone is doing something that could hurt us or harm us. It could be spending money, talking with people who gamble and their family's worried about gambling or spending other money. Or it could be worrying about family members who are not taking ownership and going to work and not doing the things that they said they were going to do. And it's like I'm trying to push them to do certain things. So sometimes we feel like this obligation I need to push. I need to influence this person to go to stop doing something or to do more of the problem is in doing so, we are ultimately imposing our will on theirs. And that's where human nature is, is to be very resistant. Like, don't tell me what I'm thinking. Don't tell me how to act. Don't tell me. So it's almost like I get this resistance. I'M not going to do what you're telling me to do.

And I think that's such a normal human reaction, Dr. Skinner. I can be given a choice or like, hey, here's some things. What do you think about that? And I can very willingly be like, hey, I can engage, I can commit, I can buy into something, but if I'm told, you have to do this, boy, that's when my heels just start digging in. But if I can back up just a little bit. Earlier, you were talking about this state of vulnerability that I really just want to hone in on a little bit. There is nothing harder, I think, in the world than feeling helpless and powerless and, like, I don't have control. So if somebody is gambling away all of our family's money and I don't have any way to procure other means of money or our needs, I can be stuck in the situation where I feel so. So utterly alone and so exasperated and just so overwhelmed. And that's what we're talking about here. We're talking about often a reaction that may come from that place. But even having been betrayed myself, I can admit that I haven't always known how to do it quite right. And there have been times when I've had to say, hey, I really need this. And I do think that this is a process that relationships go through is learning how to own. Here's what's going on for me. And to make healthy requests. Understanding our unmet needs and making healthy requests, and to hear them as well. And I know you and I may be talking today a little bit more about boundaries, too, because I think this is part of this, but it's a process and it's a journey to get there.

Yeah. And regardless of the situation, let's say it goes back, going back to that gambling situation. This is absolutely. We have to create boundaries in situations, or we could lose inheritances, or we could lose, you know, a home. We could lose a lot of things. So, yes, we have to take actions on that, and we have to choose how we're going to respond to it. If I freeze up, that's not necessarily a response. I'm frozen. If I go into fight mode and I'm critical or I'm demeaning, that's also shifting away from what's happening inside of me. And emotional ownership is I still need to be in charge and understand and own my emotions. The longer I push my pain onto you, the less personal reflection and personal insight I have. And so I often work with individuals who are stuck in this place of just a hurt, it's so painful. Whatever the betrayal is and the, the hurt of that is I'm so mad at you and I understand the mad. It makes complete sense. So what do you need individually so you aren't stuck in that place of anger or mad? That's the question. I really think it's important to self reflect on what is it that I need to move forward. Otherwise if I stay in this place of anger, of criticism and if the longer I stay there, the more damaging it is to my physical well being because I'm constantly in the state of fight and that's my bigger concern. So even if I have been betrayed in whatever way that may be, or hurt in whatever way, I still have to come back to self and say how am I going to choose to respond to this information which will constantly be ebbing and flowing is a partner in recovery. Are they stopping their behavior? Are they still gaslighting? All of those things influence how I'm going to respond, but I still have to choose my response to it. And that's where talking about boundaries comes in. And that's we're talking about I have to own my own emotions and how do I best communicate what's happening to me and have that insight. So I know how to communicate what I'm experiencing.

You know, Dr. Skinner, I want to validate everything that you said and I also want to validate what our viewers and listeners may be experiencing. If you've been betrayed, this is so incredibly complex and difficult, is kind of like standing underneath a waterfall and saying, get a good deep breath and the water just coming down on you. And so if I'm in a place where I am just trying to function and I'm just, I don't know what's going to hit me. I don't know what's out there. And I'm in this survival place. It is so hard for me to pause and take a look at myself. I know for me and for many of my clients, I think this is pretty normal. I had a belief early on in my journey thinking as soon as my husband stops this behavior, everything will be fine, this problem will be gone and everything will be fine. That's the problem that just needs to stop. And so to say, well wait a second, you've got to own your emotions and look at what's going on inside of you. One I'm just trying to survive all this damage that's happening and trying to damage control. And what do you mean? That's my husband's problem. What do you mean? I need to, like, look at myself. That could be really difficult and triggering. It's true. I agree with it and believe it. But I also know how sensitive it is when I'm just trying to catch a breath. And now I need to look at myself and pay attention to myself.

And what's interesting there is I would actually even want to shift the language of that.

Okay.

Because I can be misinterpreted. As you're saying, is it my fault or are you saying that there's something wrong with my response or what I'm doing and we have to be very cautious not to go there. Contrast that with what are you feeling like? Marianne. If I went back in time and said, Marianne, could you have identified your core emotions early on? No, not what have you known?

No, I was so busy. Just my coping skill for managing. Because for me, this was 17 years of staggered disclosure and cycles. My coping skill was to overcompensate with busyness. I was involved with so many things. I didn't have the emotions. I didn't even have words for it. And so I kept all those emotions or whatever it was at bay and over functioned.

So I got busy, which I often hear it's not uncommon for people to say, I have a really clean house because that's something I can't control, or I serve in the community and it's uber serving because I don't know what to do with what's happening inside of me. I'd rather just go keep myself busy so I don't have to think. And emotional ownership is a very different construct here. I want to feel, I want you to feel, not because I want you to be in pain. It's because I want you to transition out of the pain. Because as I often share in the cow and buffalo story that I've shared a few times, right. Cows and buffaloes sharing the same plane. If you move away from the storm like the cows, you're going to be exposed to this emotional pain for a longer period of time. And the truth is, is much like the buffaloes that they've found is they'll turn and face the storm. Marianne. And emotional ownership, I think, is that it's turning and saying, the storm is here, the emotions are here, I'm going to own them. I am disgusted, I am angry, I am sad, I am overwhelmed. And that doesn't mean you're responsible for my emotions. These are things I am experiencing. It may mean I'm going to pull back because of our interaction See, there comes a boundary, and my emotion is, I need to pull back for safety purposes. So I'm simply saying I'm pulling back because I don't feel safe based upon our interactions.

And I would just add to this, Dr. Skinner, this is a process going back to where I was. And you say, hey, could you have given me those emotions? Absolutely not. Because I didn't have the words. I didn't have a template. I didn't know how. And so this is a place where I really think group support and therapy can be so helpful. I can't tell you how many times I've had clients sit in a group and say, oh, it was like she was reading my journal. When we find places where I might not even be able to pinpoint or say that's how I'm feeling, but I hear somebody else say it, oh, that gives me words. That gives me the ability to go, oh, yeah, that's what's happening inside of me. I've kept it so far away for so long, I couldn't even figure out how to get there. And I think that's part of this process. We've got to learn how to get there.

And so as we go through this, that first step really is I have to have insight.

Yeah, right.

I. I have to figure out what's happening inside of my heart, my emotions, and so then I can't own what I don't understand. Maybe that's the best way for me to say that I can't own it if I don't know what's happening inside of me. And then the other part of that is my capacity to be able to communicate it. I might not be able to communicate that initially. I might not know what to say. How do I even deal with this?

I think.

And for me, that's important.

And I know we've been dancing around boundaries. We've mentioned it a couple of times, but I think this is one of the things that can be so difficult as I'm trying to find the insight. Every book that I'll read, every podcast I'll listen to or whatever will say, oh, you need boundaries. I have so many clients that come to me and say, I need boundaries. I don't know what that is. I don't know how to do it. But everything I'm reading, it says, I need boundaries. And so I'm coming maybe not having a whole lot of insight into what I'm experiencing, and I'm being told I need boundaries, but I don't even know how to get there. And I do believe that boundaries are something that we have to create based on our needs and figuring out what am I not okay with. That's a good place to start figuring out what I need to form boundaries around. Boundaries are not unilateral punishments. They're not about you. Oftentimes, I'll see clients say, well, my boundary is that you can't do that. And I would shift that and say, well, your boundary needs to be. If you choose to do that, then here's what I'm going to need to do to take care of myself. That's very different than me deciding what you can and can't do. Once my emotional ownership is, if this happens, this is what I have to do to take care of myself, because I need to be taken care of emotionally, and I need to take care of my myself. I want to shift that just a little bit as well. Dr. Skinner.

Yeah.

I think one of the things that's so important in healing or in emotional ownership is really recognizing sometimes we overstep. Sometimes we do things where we're really embarrassed about it. Like, we feel really bad. Like, that was not me being my best self. I just did something that I'm ashamed of that I'm not proud of. I love to tell my clients, you know, it might feel like such a great idea to take a baseball bat to your husband's windshield of his favorite truck and, like, bash it in. Like, that might feel so good because you're so mad, and about two minutes later, it might not feel as good. In that moment, it'll feel good, but then when we gotta pay for it, and then every time I see it, I'm like, that's where I lost complete control. Like, there is a space there. I've gotta figure out how to also have own my emotions and have boundaries around what I do and what I don't do. So I don't hurt people or property.

Yeah. So I want to look at this in a little bit different light for a second because I also see the other side where I need you to comfort me. I need you to be the one who I turn to. I need you in our interactions while we're seeking soothing. In other words, we want our partner to soothe us. That expectation is that you're going to soothe me is a really difficult one for many people that I have worked with throughout my career, because it's almost like I need you to be the comforter. And yet when you try comforting, I don't believe you or I don't trust you. And so we get in this very delicate dance, painful dance in many cases, because I tried to be there for you and it didn't comfort you. And so now I feel like a failure because I was trying to be there, but it wasn't what you needed or it wasn't done the right way or wasn't said the right way. And I hear this from those who are acting out and saying, I tried to do that and that didn't work. And yet I hear from the person who's betrayed, I don't trust it. So I want you here to comfort me, but I don't trust it. And so now I'm mad because I want it, but I can't. I don't trust you. And now we're doing this very difficult dance of we don't know how to comfort each other. Yeah. And what I want to say to that, Marianne, is we all have the opportunity to step back and say, I may want you to comfort me. And right now, I don't know if I can trust it, but I may need a hug or I may need words of affirmation. I may need validation, and I might not trust it. See, the emotional ownership is I need comfort right now, and I still might not even trust it, but I do need it.

And if I can build on that, I think it's being able to recognize my partner may not be able to give that to me. And so I have to figure out healthy ways for me to meet my needs. Because emotional ownership is, yes, understanding. I have a need. I have an emotional need. I need. I may need just some encouragement, some validation or something to say, you're doing okay. This is really hard. Or, I understand. And so if my partner isn't the one who can provide that for me, I have to find healthy things that I can turn to, healthy ways to manage that. And so sometimes we use, you know, exercise. Sometimes we use music, Sometimes we use cleaning, Sometimes we use art. There's so many different gardening. There's so many different things that we can do as outlets to also meet those needs. And we need to understand ourselves enough to say, ooh, right now I need something. Let me go through my bag of tools and figure out who I can turn to or what I need to do right now. I might need to do a little bit of preparation beforehand to say, here's a list of things that I can turn to that I need when I need it.

And that's pre thought out. As you said, we prepare in advance. My bigger concern in working with couples, Marian Dealing with betrayal is that we are trying to find comfort. And yet at the same time, I don't trust you. I don't trust that the comfort or that you want to comfort me. And if I was the person who acted out, I don't know how to deal with my own emotions, let alone the emotions that I created in you because of the betrayal. And so whether it's the shame, it's like feeling like I've let you down and now you're angry at me and you're upset at me, and this is a very important part for everybody. And if I could just say one thing here. If you're stuck in that rut of that kind of conflict, looking for comfort, I don't want you to comfort. I want your comfort or I don't know what to say. I want to say I've tried to comfort you a thousand times. I don't know how to do it right. My best suggestion to start that journey is to go do some self work. Your partner isn't going to be the instant answer. How do I best communicate? What are you trying to say? What is it that I'm trying to say? What is inside of me that I'm really trying to say to my partner or spouse? If you've done that preliminary work, the conversations can be so much more effective. So I often find that when I get couples to slow down the process and then they try to communicate most effectively of what they're experiencing and they try to listen to each other, we have way better outcomes. Because I've owned my own stuff. First. I am feeling, I am thinking, I am concerned about. I don't know how to do this right. And it's all truth because I've thought through what the core is for me. And sometimes I'm going to turn to you, and sometimes I'm not going to turn to you. And that's going to have to be okay. That's just an example, Marianne. But when couples don't know how to do that, then they're playing a yo yo game of close, not close, not knowing how to communicate it. Will you let me down? Will you? We failed at this. Often when we get in that cycle, when I can get couples to step back their communication, after they've got personal insight, after they've looked inside emotional ownership here, they're able to communicate those emotions so much more effectively.

You know, Dr. Skinner, in 12 step traditions and most of the 12 step programs, there's a concept of staying on your own side of the street. And what that means is oftentimes, you know, going back to what we talked about a little bit earlier. You know, me thinking, hey, as soon as my husband gets this worked out, we'll. We'll be fine. Everything will be good. And, hey, honey, here's the things that you need to do so that I can be okay. Get your stuff worked out here. Here you go. And so I may be so invested in focusing on, hey, did you go to gru? What happened to therapy? Like, who did you call today? What did you look at? What did you do? I may be so focused on what my partner's doing, really trying to manage their behaviors as a way to manage my safety. And so recognizing this is something that's pretty normal, and we have to look at it and say, hold on a second. It can be an avoidance place, because if I'm focused on you, if I'm trying to manage everything about your life, I'm kind of abdicating myself from my own life. That's not my emotional ownership. That's me trying to own your emotions and make sure that you don't see something or have a thought or do something that is going to be hard for me.

And along those lines, Marianne, throughout my career, I've often seen where people don't go on a trip or they don't go with friends, or they don't even go out of the house at times because they're so concerned about what their spouse is doing. I often hear that type of an experience. And my biggest concern there is, it's like our world is getting confined. If a person's going to enter recovery, they've got to own that part of their life. I can't control you. I can't monitor it, because that wears both partners out.

It.

It absolutely just wears people out. And again, get it. It's that safety seeking. But in doing so, I am living in my own confined prison, where I feel like I have to monitor and control everything that you do or say. And to me, that's a bigger concern, because the person who acted out is responsible for creating their boundaries, communicating clear to you. If I'm going to earn trust, these are the things that I need to do to build trust with you. That kind of ownership is so important because now I'm owning it. That's how healthy people recover. I can't be responsible for your recovery. And when we try to do that as couples, it usually ends up in just a mess.

You know, one of the things that comes to mind when we're talking about this topic for me, when I was a kid growing up, there was a cartoon called He Man. And he would, like, raise his hands above his head and say, I am the master of the universe. When I talk about owning other people's emotions, trying to manage other people's emotions, that's always what comes to mind. I'm not he Man. I'm not in charge of anybody else's emotions, and I can't be. So if I'm trying to manipulate things so somebody doesn't have emotions, that's a good place to step back and go. I'm not he man or she ra because that was his female counterpart.

So, Marianne, as I think about this, when I try to monitor, read your emotions, when I try to do that, I become overly concerned about almost everything that you do. And again, that's a natural response. But as we progress towards healing, that that shift is very important to realize I have to look inside of myself, and you're going to need to be responsible for your recovery. Don't let me be misunderstood here. I'm not saying that there isn't a person who they're turning to, but someone that they can talk to, a sponsor, an accountability team, that there's certain times where a spouse, they can become so overly involved in the recovery process that you've got two people working for the same thing, and this person is not actually getting growth because their partner's doing it for them. You need to know how to regulate your emotions on your own. You need to know how to be away from your spouse. You need to learn how to do those things. So I'm not totally responding. I'm not living my life around your recovery.

Yeah, I have two comments on that. Dr. Skinner, in your book Treating Sexual Addiction, A Compassionate Approach to Recovery, one of the concepts that you share that I've gleaned from what recovery looks like is if I've been turning to a substance or to a behavior or something, it's usually to numb my emotions. It's usually to self medicate. And so we're talking about emotional ownership here. Recognizing that with addiction, addiction is the opposite of emotional ownership. And we usually get stunted somewhere in our life where instead of learning how to turn to other people or to self soothe, we turn to the addiction. And so healthy recovery from addiction is learning how to build relationships with ourself to understand, oh, I have a need right here. I have an emotion, and I could turn to the addiction, that would numb it, but. Or I could express a need. I need to have this need met. To another person. And I can learn how to build attachment and healthy relationships. So that's one really important part of this. The other part is also realizing that if my spouse or partner has an emotion that's theirs, it's not mine, I don't have to own their emotions. I remember my husband and I were out on a walk one day, and he was sharing something with me, and I said, wow, well, that sounds kind of like a personal problem. What are you going to do about that? And he kind of just laughed and was like, oh, now you know. You're married to a therapist. But being able to recognize I can't own my husband's emotions. There's. He feels these emotions, and they're his, and I might agree with them, I might not agree with them. It doesn't really matter. They're his. And so can I let my partner have their own emotions and learn how to manage them and navigate them in a healthy way? If my partner says something triggering to me, that's actually my junk. That's my junk. And my signal say, ooh, that didn't feel good. I'm feeling pretty feisty about that. I might need to go do some work and figure out what it is about that that triggered me. That's not his fault. It's. It's my reaction. It's my emotions that I need to manage.

And when we understand that concept, then we're understanding our own emotions and how to interact with you in ways that I'm not depending on you for how I'm feeling. I'm understanding. You know what? That really did that. What you said just ticked me off or that hurt. No, that's different than you made me. What just happened, that hurt me. And when we interact that way, let's say the comeback to that is, why are you so hurt by that? So if I say that really hurt me, and you say.

What are you talking about? There's no way that could hurt you.

I. I feel hurt. And I don't know if it was the word when you said, that's on you or that's not my problem. I'm not sure yet. But I did it. I. I am just sharing an emotion that I felt, and I'm trying to be open with you and vulnerable with you because it did hurt.

Now, if I say, well, that sounds like a personal problem, what are you going to do about that?

I'm going to go do some reflection because as we interacted here between us, my initial response was to pull back from you. And maybe you weren't trying to hurt me again. I'm going to assume that because I want to give you the benefit of the doubt. But when you said, that's on me, Marianne, my initial response is, wait, we're interacting here. And you see, that's on me. It's influencing us because my natural response is to pull back.

You know, Dr. Skinner, as you say that, I think I can see. I do believe that whatever is going on for you, I can't solve it for you. I can't solve your emotions or what you're feeling. I. I do believe that's on you, and I really appreciate you letting me know that. The way that I addressed that with you, it felt kind of curt. It felt like very disinvested. And I apologize. I could probably work on my delivery a little bit better. Let me try that again, because what I wish that I would have said was, that sounds like that's really hard. I wonder what your thoughts are. How are you going to solve that? What are you going to do with that? Because that sounds really difficult.

And I just really appreciate the way you're approaching this. So thank you for hearing me out there. And even your tone of voice was helpful, so thank you. See, in our interactions, I could be curt, I could be critical. I could be demeaning, I could be negative. My tone of voice and the energy, it is almost like I'm pushing it all to you now. Again, I can come from a place of shame. I can come from a place of frustration. I can come from a place of anger. Wherever I'm coming from, my emotional ownership, I'm going to be way more effective. If I said to you, and I often say this to partners who've been betrayed, the most powerful communication you have will never be your anger, because you want to be heard. But anger from a physiological perspective will push your spouse away. Because the natural human response to anger is to fight or to flee. It is so difficult to stay present when the person is yelling at you or putting you down. It's so difficult to be present. And yet I work with those who've betrayed their spouse, trying to help them understand. Stay with the pain. Yes, there's anger there. Stay with the pain. Stay with the pain. Stay with the pain until where you might get to the point where I can't do it anymore. I've often hear that at that point, it's completely appropriate to say, I really care about this relationship, and I know what you're saying is important. I don't know how to be here right now. And still respond in an effective way. Can we take a time out for 15, 20, 30 minutes and reflect on what we're both feeling emotionally so we can communicate? Taking a time out, learning to communicate effectively, can we do that? Because I wanted to do this right, but right now I don't know how to do it.

Well, you know, Dr. Skinner, just today I was working with a client and we were talking about this exact subject. And we also were talking about sometimes we can use some physical cues that can be more helpful. Like, sometimes it's like saying, my partner's saying, like, I think it's time for a timeout. If I am really amped up, like, that might be like, oh, now you want a break? Because I'm not emotionally regulated.

We always do this. You always run from your problems, right?

And so, you know, whether it's going to the fridge and pulling out a drink and saying, like, let's just have a drink right now, I'm not talking like an alcoholic beverage per se, but finding something, whether it's some lotion or some essential oils, finding something that we can both agree on that could be a healthy cue for us to say, I might need a break. We might need to slow this down. And it can be as simple as walking to the cupboard and getting a cup and saying, hey, do you want some water right now?

That's disrupting the cycle. That's the concept we're talking about here, Disrupting the fight pattern in the cycle. Yes. So, Mary, on this topic, I think we could go on and on in terms of just the importance of helping us come to more insight, owning our emotions, learning how to communicate the emotions. But if I could just leave with a couple final thoughts today, the first thought is we have to acknowledge and understand our own emotions. I think that that's going to be the most important thing we can individually do, is understand our own emotions and how we're responding to each other. So I'm more effective at what I'm really trying to say because more often than not, I don't believe there are partners who are angry, who've been betrayed. I don't believe they're angry people. I believe their hurt is what's coming across is the anger. And really what's underneath it all is, I'm so hurt. I'm so scared. I'm worried about our relationship and I'm worried about what you're capable of doing. I'm scared of those things. In contrast with, you're such a liar. When we communicate effectively, it's usually because we've spent enough time saying, what am I really trying to communicate? And then coming across of, here's what I've identified as my core emotions. And when we do that, then we're more likely to have that emotional ownership leads to more effective communication, better boundaries, and. And ultimately in relationships, it leads to a better outcome.

You know, Dr. Skinner, I think my closing thoughts on this are that just because we're humans and we're in relationship, we disagree, we have emotions and we trigger each other and we have expectations that aren't met. And so there's a lot of emotions, and this is really messy. And I would want just to share, as we're getting to wrap up, that the more that I can slow down and use my ownership language, it's so hard in a conflict for somebody to say, well, no, you don't feel that When I'm saying, I feel this. This is what's happening for me. The more that I'm owning my experience, it takes me a minute to slow down and go, what is my experience? What's coming up for me? What's happening for me? The more introspective I can do about that and if I can do it in a compassionate way, really curious way, ooh, what's going on? I'm having an emotional experience. Something just happened and it might even just be like, ooh, my tummy feels really upset or my chest feels tight. Even just owning those things, noticing those things most of the time, even if I don't get the words right, if I'm trying, I may be awkward and I may be clumsy, but if I'm coming from here is my experience, rather than an accusatory blaming or me trying to own or tell you how you feel about or you did this because you X, Y, Z, narrating your experience, that ownership place, it creates the collaborative place where we can slow down and hear each other. And that's what we're really looking for underneath all of this. We want to connect. We want to be seen, we want to be heard and fulfilled. That's our human experience. We want that connection. We're all worthy of love and connection, and we need to start with ourself and then learning how to express that with other people.

Absolutely. So to our listeners, I'm going to leave you with a question, and I'd love to hear your answers to this question. Here's a question. Can your partner fix your emotions? I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. So questionshumanintimacy.com please send me your response. Can your partner fix your emotions? Tell me why you answered the way you did. That's what I want to hear. So to our listeners, spend a little bit of time, answer the question. Please send us an email. And I would like to follow up with this topic as we deal with these questions. So can your partner fix your emotions? We'd love to hear your response.

I got one last thing, Dr. Skinner. Earlier. Earlier as we were talking, we were talking about boundaries and how oftentimes we don't know what to do with boundaries. How to start, we know that it's something really needed. I just want to share for anybody who's listening that we have a boundaries course on human intimacy.com and it's created specifically to help you figure out what are the boundaries that I need? How do I walk at the very walk you through? Is this a rule that I'm trying to place on somebody or is this a boundary about me it's really great at helping you define and parse that out. And so I'd love to invite you just to go to humanentrancy.com and check out this boundaries course. It's $99, it's less than the price of a therapy session and it's got about six to eight weeks worth of therapy tools that we would be using in session just in this course. So I'd love to invite you to.

Check that out and we'll put a link in the show notes for you. Marianne has done a great job in that course. All right, Marianne, thank you for your time and to our listeners, if you've made it this far with us, we want to give you two thumbs up today, thanking you for your time. We invite you to give us a thumbs up that would be always helpful for the algorithms. Two thumbs up for taking time to be with us. Please give us a thumbs up on the way out today. And again, we'll create links in the show notes for that course. Thank you so much and may you have a great week.

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