Finding the Why: The Courage to Understand Betrayal (Episode #77)

There's something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh.

Welcome to the human intimacy podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner. Marianne Michaelis. Today, I'm excited to talk about a topic that we often get questions on, and it's from both partners, and it's why the betrayal? Why did this happen? Because the betrayed partners often asking the question, why did you do this? And the betraying partner is saying, why did I do that? So, Marian, what's your lead thoughts?

This is complex, and there's so much here to unpack. And I want to acknowledge that we're not going to hit all the facets. We'll hit a few. And there's so many directions that this can go. So as we're starting out saying, like, why does he do that? Why do I do that? Why does she do that? Why do I do that? This can be really blaming and this can be really confusing because we're talking about behaviors that hurt the people that we care about. And a lot of times we may not understand or exactly know why we're doing what we're doing.

Yeah. So I. I can't tell you how many times I'm asked the question, so why did my spouse do this? And then in their fight, why did you do this? Why did you do this? Why? Why often ask the question, why are we asking the question? Right. It's an another why. What is so important about the why? And many times when I hone it down to the betrayed partner, it's because I want to make sure that they understand how they got there so they don't go there again. So they almost want their partner to understand why they did it. So it's not a repeat. If you don't understand why you did it, how are we going to know you're not going to go back there and do it again?

This can go so many places. There's the why. Would you ever think that this would be okay or this would be a good idea? So we're talking about that questioning part, but I also want to separate this other side of it. I talk with my clients all the time about finding your why. What is the purpose that's underneath, like your underlying value of the reason why you're doing this work? So the why of my recovery might be very different than the why I did this thing that hurt my partner. They're two very different ones.

Absolutely. So in. In our podcast today, there's a couple of things that I want to make sure that we cover. One is the why people often do what they do. And because a lot of partners are asking the question, well, I can give you the answers that we've seen, what research suggests, and also, you know, 31 years of therapy, I can tell you a lot of the whys that I've heard over the years. But before we go there, I think it's really critical that we say every why is usually a justification. And it's important to understand it's how I justified my behavior. So even if you get the why, it will be how your partners got down that rabbit hole. And when they understand it. That's very insightful and very helpful. But that why will always feel like a justification. Let me give you an example of this. If I said to you, the reason why I act out is because I had childhood trauma and abuse and I was exposed to pornography at age 6, and it's just been a part of my life, and I've never been able to stop. That's my why. If I say that's why I'm still doing it in marriage 35, 40 years, 50 years later, okay, so now it's childhood. And now I'm saying that's why I did it. But why did you do it now? I mean, that was 40. Why didn't you get help earlier?

And, Dr. Skinner, that the tone that you used, I could hear that as a betrayed partner and be like, yeah, so that's your excuse now? That's your justification. That makes it okay. I think tone and meaning are super important here, too, because it could be. I don't understand this. I don't know what's going on. Here's where I'm at. Or it could be.

No.

Well, it's because of my childhood stuff, and I can't change it. It's been going on for 40 years.

Right.

Very different meanings here.

Now you're talking about the underlying emotional tone. But every why could I humbly say, honestly, when I was age 6, it began, and it has been a struggle for me ever since then. And that's still not a justification for what I've been doing.

Right.

But it is a part of my story, and that's a very important distinction. Rather than it being a blame for my past or blame for whatever reason, I still have to own it and understand this is probably my story and why I got to this point, and it still won't justify what I've done.

Zooming out. I have two thoughts on this. I think, first of all, that there is always a reason whether I know what it Is or not one. There is just always, always a reason. And I think that recovery is figuring out that reason. I'm a beekeeper, and just before our podcast, I was in my yard and. And I saw some bees flying around, and I was like, oh, they're more active than they usually are. Let me go check them out. And my bees were all hanging. It's called bearding. And they kind of hang off of the beehive in this big, huge clump. And sometimes they have a bee dance that they do, and they're actually giving directions to the other bees of where to go find the pollen or the nectar. And when they beard, it's actually a type of air conditioning system that they're using. It's too hot inside, so go hang out outside. There is a why, and there is a reason. And I can look at the insects. I can look at everything around me. There's always a why. There's. There's a reason why things happen. Just even the science in the world, I might not understand that. I can sit and go, what are my bees doing? What's going on? And I think this applies to our relationships. There's always something underneath. There's a reason, even if we don't know it consciously ourselves.

And I think if I were speaking for the betrayed partner, the reason they ask the why is because they want to see if their spouse understands their own story.

Yes, I would add on to that. Also, they want to make sense of it themselves. Okay, if you can tell me this is why, then I can have some compassion. I can get around this. I can see that you're not just justifying or using it as an excuse or trying to gaslight me. I can see where your sincerity is.

So I'm gonna give two different responses here. Right. Why did you do this? I don't know. I'm an addict. I don't know. I've been dealing with this in childhood. Or maybe I even go a little bit worse. Well, we weren't connected. We were fighting.

Oh, right.

So I can become defensive. I can minimize it, or let's try a different tone here. You know, honestly, there's no good answer. So every why I've. I've thought through. Yes, I did have these experiences in my childhood, and yes, I did have some other life experiences. I just wish I had more insight back then that I'm starting to get now. I'm starting to understand my story. It's really been a part of my life, and I wish I would have taken actions earlier, but the truth Is right now, I think I have more insight than I've ever had.

I love that insight. Take. Because that first example, boy, you know, our first work in recovery is really looking at our denial. And I might have told myself a story, and I might still be telling myself a story that I've used to justify my behaviors so that I can look in the mirror, so that I can say, yeah, this is okay. I hear often, well, you were too busy, you were too tired, you weren't interested in sex. And so I had to get my needs met. I hear getting my needs met often as a reason or why. And we have to look at that and say, hold on a second. Yes, I agree, you have to get your needs met. But I'm wondering if that's the need that you're really needing to get met or if you're using that as a coping tool for a deeper underneath. Why?

And I think when individuals do enough introspection, they realize they come to that recognition, like, that's how my mind was working at that time. As they begin to shift into a mindset of, I don't have to go that direction. I can change. I don't have to act out. That's. It's a different understanding. They start to say things like, I, yeah, I realize that I have those needs, and I still have those needs, but I don't have to do it the way I was doing it, you know?

Dr. Skinner, I want to just pause for a second. This conversation that we're having is about introspection and insight.

Yeah, for sure.

I think it's important to point out recovery. This is what it boils down to, figuring out why I'm doing what I'm doing. And for some of our listeners, this might be hard. It might be like, what I've gone through my life, I've created patterns and systems so that I don't have to feel. I don't have to really look deeply. And that's how I've functioned. That's how I survived through some really hard things. And so it might feel really daunting for us to start saying now we want to start pulling things back, slowing things down. And it might feel like I don't have the emotional tools to cope with what I might find. So this can be really daunting.

And I think it can go both directions, both partners, that the. Why. Man, this might sound a little bit, maybe difficult to hear, but when I work with betrayed partners, I often ask the question, why does your spouse's behaviors bother you? I mean, Some of the things make obvious sense. My spouse cheated. What do you mean? Why does it bother me? But still, the important part there is the interpretation what meaning they are giving to the sexual betrayal. Why is this bothering me? And usually when we start getting deeper, and this is what I'm trying to help them communicate, I feel like I'm not important. I feel unloved. I feel like I'm easily replaced. I feel powerless. And so we start to hear the deeper why, the deeper pain that we may not have heard without that type of introspection.

So how do I get there? Because I could go check, check, check, check to that list. Great. Dr. Skinner, you just said all those things. I don't know what I. I don't know. How do I get there?

So my suggestion that I often give to my clients is to take a little bit of time, get out a journal and think about what you're experiencing and just put two paper with your pen, whatever comes to your mind. And I have found that when you just start writing whatever comes to your mind without editing, just let it flow, the insight just comes in. And I have seen that over and over with my clients. It's one of my favorite tools to give to my clients. In fact, if you were sitting in my office and I said, okay, I'm just going to give you some paper and I just want you to write, it's amazing what will happen in three to five minutes of just writing. What is this issue? Why is it? What am I really trying to say, and what's it doing to me? And usually Marianne, we come up with a core belief that they have about themselves. So when you get to the why with, often with betrayed partners, why, it's bothered, bothersome. It's usually what it's doing to their sense of self.

I've got two very divergent thoughts on this. So the first one, I don't know if you're familiar with Julia Cameron. Have you heard of her before?

I haven't.

She has a workbook called the Artist's Way. And it's really about connecting with your artistic side. We are all leaders. We create things around us. We create environments. But one of the exercises she talks about, she calls it morning page. And she says every morning you sit down and you just write for three pages. And it's just a brain dump. It's not specific, it's not focused. It's just kind of clearing all the junk out of your brain. Doesn't matter, nobody's going to read it. But that helps you clear out to get to this place of insight, all the thoughts that are jumbled around the other thought I have on this is an exercise that I think I learned from you. And it's the Toyota way, I think that's. And it's called the five why. I had a client I worked with years ago, and she thought that she had to bring homemade goods to every church activity. And she was at a group that day, and she's like, I'm so stressed. I've got so much on my plate, and I've got to make cookies for this thing tonight. And so we started saying, let's dig that. Why? Why do you need to do this? Why do you need to do this? And we say, why is this important? What's that rule there? What does it mean? And as we ask that five times, like, why? What does this mean? What's the meaning? You give this. What's the meaning? You give this. If you don't bring cookies homemade to the church party? Well, it means that I'm not good enough. Oh, what does that mean? Well, the boys used to always get all the attention. The boys used to xyz. What it boiled down to was her feeling less than her brother, less than the boys. But somebody in that, those five steps down, somebody had said, this is what good women do. This is what homemakers do. So she believed that's her why our conversation shifted to, you know what, if you take Rice Krispie treats, they're going to be gone first. Or Oreos, they're going to be gone first. Donuts, they're going to be gone first. And you don't even have to make them. And it would just opened up her whole world. But going back down through the why, we tell ourselves stories and reasons and messages that often don't serve us.

Yeah, that's a very important point. So what you're describing there is when we don't have the personal insight, we don't even understand our own whys.

Yeah.

So when I work with individuals who've been acting out for decades, one of the questions I frequently ask is, all right, so in a recent relapse, what made you decide to do that? Because a relapse last week versus 10 years ago, are they different reasons? Why did I choose to go there today? What was the purpose of a relapse? And it's always interesting to see where their mind goes, like, what was happening. Because interestingly enough, when we don't have that insight, we just act mindlessly. And what we're trying to say is, understanding your why is going to not only increase your insight, but you're going to live more mindfully with more attention and more awareness. And I think, Marianne, that's what we're trying to help, at least today in this podcast, is we need to get more insight into our whys. And then in the marital dynamic, what happens there is, if I understand my why, I'm going to call it an awareness and humble way I can tell my story. Not in an accusatory, not in a blaming way. And I'll give a couple examples of this one real quick. So let's just say that we were disconnected and we had been living apart, and I chose to act out, and I said, well, we haven't been together. And I. So I just, you know, what does it matter? Why does it even matter now? Contrast that with, I don't do well when I'm alone. I realized. And it's something that I've got to work with, because when I'm alone, I realize I'm more vulnerable, and so I've got to come up with a better strategy when I'm alone. And that's what I realized in this last episode. That feel different.

Absolutely.

Insight, awareness, things that I need to work on, and it's taking accountability rather than shifting the responsibility and blaming or accusing my partner for my behaviors.

So I think we're talking about a couple of different concepts here. We're talking about distilling it down to understand maybe our belief that may or may not be faulty. And I think we're also talking about tracing out or going back through our patterns and figuring out what was I thinking or feeling that made me step over my line into behaviors that I didn't want that were harmful to me or to other people. And so we're going two different directions, but with that same question, why?

Which, again, it's this important question. So now I want to be a little bit practical for a second.

All right.

What if we said, all right, I'm going to give you some of the most common whys that people relapse. Okay. So we're just gonna. We're gonna go through and we're gonna say, here's the most common whys. Do you know the number one? Marianne Recording.

I know the first two. I'm not sure which order you're going.

Okay. So the number one reason, based upon research that people relapse or turn to drugs, alcohol, or sexual behaviors or gambling or whatever is stress.

Right?

Right. And it's the inability to effectively deal with stress. That's. That's research shows that over and over and over again, that's the number one.

So it's a coping or a survival strategy.

Yep. Okay, so if we just start there, then the tool that we have to deal with is how do I more effectively deal with my stress?

Right.

And that's a different dialogue. Like, I'm stressed, I was stressed, so I acted out. Contrasting with, I've got to figure out.

How to deal with stress more effectively and very consciously.

Yeah. And so now what would you say the number two is?

Number two is schedule. When I'm not doing my dailies, when my schedule changes. Usually we have patterns. We have things that we get up and do. Hopefully our clients are doing self care and they're working recovery. They're very specific things that we set in place to ensure that we're going to be emotionally regulated. We're connecting with a higher power, we're connecting with other people. And when we are on vacation, when we're traveling, when our schedule gets messed up, and then there's stress on top of that, because now we've got, you know, say I'm at a family reunion, say we're up late talking and laughing, and then we get up early to do something. So I haven't taken care of myself the way that I normally do, and I'm off. And then somebody says something and things start just unraveling really quickly. Did I get that right?

The way you just described that could also be blumped into the stress category. That's one of the challenges with it, is I was out of sorts because my schedule or routine was not the norm. So what's interesting, stress then can be all encompassing. But if we look at the general patterns, you're right, because the way our brains work with neuroplasticity and the way our brains work in general is we do things in patterns. In fact, Bessel Vander Kolk, in his book the Body Keeps the Score, he says, it was you. Anytime you create change, one of the biggest challenges that you have as therapists and that we have is to not take away coping mechanisms before people are prepared to not have that coping mechanism. With a child, if you take away the binky when they're not prepared for another comforter, they're going to have temper tantrums. They're going to be uncomfortable because they're not prepared for that being removed from their life.

And I think that's so important in therapy when we're saying, hey, let's just take away this coping strategy that you've been using for 35 years and you have nothing left. Good luck. That we've got to be really careful. That is why as therapists, we're saying you need a support group, you need a sponsor, you need people to talk to. You've got to find places to fill in those gaps.

That's right. Because the transition from acting out to not acting out, there's a lot of parts that you just described because if I try to just do it, say cold turkey or not prepared, that's often why. Honestly, that's why when we set New Year's resolutions, they don't work because I'm not mentally prepared for that change that's going to take place. So when people say, why did you do that? Another possible answer is I wasn't prepared for the change. I didn't have enough insight, I didn't have enough awareness. And so when the stress came or when things came, I wasn't prepared. I didn't have the tools or the resources. Now is that justification or is that just a fact? I wasn't prepared mentally for how hard it was going to be.

And I think that can be really big or really small. I, I previously interviewed over 500 women hearing their stories before they came into some support groups. And one thing that I noticed and I started really tracking and kind of just keeping note of is like, when did the betrayal happen? When did you know? When was. What did you find out about that? Overwhelmingly big things, anniversaries, holidays, babies being born, traveling, things that were not normal in the normal part of routines. And so I just want to validate that there are some significant life experiences, birthdays and anniversaries. There can be a lot of emotions that get tied to these things that can really be really painful and triggering. And so there may be an emotional component. I mean, there's always an emotional component to that. And I really believe in slowing things down and saying, you know, was I hungry, was I tired, was I stressed? When I walked in the door and I tripped over my kids bike and I started yelling at them, I have to be able to walk that back and say tomorrow I don't want to yell at my kids. Sure, I walk in the door. So do I need to meditate for five minutes before I come in? Do I need to get a granola bar or some water? I have to be intentional to go backwards through my pattern and say, how do I prevent this? So if I know I'm going on a family reunion or a trip or having a baby or there's a Hard anniversary or birthday coming up. I need to do some advanced planning saying this is going to be a potential problem. I've got to figure out my plan for me so that I can be successful.

So I've got a couple thoughts here. You just again describe stress. Right? Right. If you look at life events, Right. Moving, travel. Right. And the second part of that is Dr. Roy Baumeister's book Willpower talks about when our energy is depleted. He calls it ego depletion. We're more vulnerable to do things that maybe are not as healthy for us. So to turn to unhealthy habits or unhealthy behaviors. So when I look at that, Marianne, when your energy is lower, you're more vulnerable or susceptible to acting out or acting in inappropriate ways.

Let me add to that, I can't quote who this was other than I was listening to a Brene Brown podcast probably during COVID and she was interviewing somebody really smart. Who? I don't remember who they were, but the conversation that I remember is the individual said, you can have a plate of cookies sitting out on the counter and at 9am in the morning I'm great. I can walk past that, no problem. 4:30 in the afternoon, depending. It has to do also with our glucose levels in our brain. So there is some biological stuff going on with the chemicals and what the hormones, everything. So at 4:30 I can walk by those cookies and I might need to grab a cookie because of energy depletion. And so sometimes we might say I don't know why. Like I sometimes that question, I don't know why I did it. And I'm not giving this as like a here's a free pass or an excuse. But I think it's important to also know where was I in my day, what was going on with me?

And that is the awareness that the person who is acting out needs to have in order to prevent it from happening again. So I recognize I'm more vulnerable at 4:30. Charles Duhigg, in his book the Power of Habit, he talks about this concept of when we automatic afternoon need for a cookie or something, we get into a pattern and it's almost programmed that way. So when we're susceptible to the cookie or to acting out or whatever that susceptibility is, one of the whys is I was susceptible and I did not respond well in that susceptible environment, at risk environment. So for me, when someone asks why, I bet I could give 10 reasons for almost any relapse. I could start off with my childhood experience. I could Then say I was dealing with stress at work and then it was in the afternoon and it was available and it was accessible. And all of a sudden, which of those is the reason why all of them been doing it for this many years?

You know, Dr. Skinner, as I hear you say that, I feel a deflation inside myself going like, as a betrayed partner, hearing that, that, that sounds and feels to me hopeless. Like, oh, wow, okay, here's 10 reasons. And they might all be valid, but that sure doesn't help give me hope.

Yes, but they are the answers to why they are all of them combined.

So what you're saying is there's. This is the recipe. If I can figure out this recipe, then I can start saying at 4:30 when I know that I've got the low glucose, then I need to grab some carrot sticks.

And when I'm lonely, I need to call my sponsor. And, and when I am, something triggers my childhood experience. I need to do some self reflection and understand where to go. The point is, is that is the why. I understand there's five or ten reasons why. And for every one of them, I need to develop a response and understand that when I'm in that situation, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to call a sponsor, I'm going to have that carrot, I'm going to go for a walk. And I understand myself well enough that because I've taken the time to understand my why, I recognize the environment that I'm vulnerable and, and then I can shift my behaviors.

So I want to just be really clear. It might sound like we're talking about buckshot, like it just goes everywhere. It could be anything and that might be the case. But recovery is about going through and saying each one of those little beads in that buckshot, what are they and what's the trigger that gets me there?

Yeah, and what's interesting there is individuals who are working recovery. They know there are certain environments that, that they may be susceptible to and they know what to do in those moments. I have some phenomenal stories just recently talking with some of my group members and I'm just amazed at some of the things that they are doing to sustain their recovery. But they understand that there's certain environments maybe that I can't be in or certain things that I just don't do or I know when I need to call a sponsor or reach out to my accountability team. To me that Marianne is. I understand where I'm vulnerable and why I'm vulnerable. It was a hard day at work, it was stressful. I'm up, right? And so I have to understand myself well enough, because if I not, I'm going to go get that drink. I'm going to go do that. Whatever the behavior is.

And what I love about what you're sharing is this example. It doesn't happen instantly. It doesn't happen at first. It's a progression. It's a, oh, that didn't work. Now I got to figure it out. Okay, now I know that doesn't work for me. And I think that is where we actually have to get that deep down, why that's. This is my value. So why am I choosing to not go to the beach and to say no to this family activity or social thing? What is my why underneath it? My why is because this is not safe for me. And in the past, I've hurt myself and others. And so my why is that I can't. I don't want to go into that space for myself. Not because of you, but really because it's my value. And that takes time and energy just to get there.

So the work that we're talking about, when I ask individuals who are coming to me in the beginning, rarely do they understand the depth of their why. Because it's usually very complex. It's not one reason. It's multiple reasons. And what we have to do is identify, okay, when you're feeling this way, what we call emotional attunement, being aware of your own emotions when you're feeling this way, what is your plan? What are the alternative behaviors, and how are you going to respond? So you are intentionally doing what you know is going to work for you. When you understand that why, it's free. You are absolutely understanding yourself. Well, like, I can do this. It's freeing, I should say. And to me, that, Marianne, is. That insight is beautiful.

As I'm listening to the overall context of what we're talking about. We're talking about courage. This work that we're talking about takes so much courage to look at ourselves and to assess and to dig in and to be introspective and to say, I'm changing things and I'm finding my why. This is all about courage. This isn't easy work. It's incredibly difficult and incredibly freeing and rewarding as well.

I want to do one more. This can be a little bit more difficult. So to the betrayed partners, I want to just give you a little caveat here. This is not going to be easy, but I'm going to invite you to think about it more often than not, I hear betrayed partners and their spouses saying, you're so angry. You're so angry. And I often say, I don't believe that the betrayed partners are angry. Anger is a manifestation of a deeper why I'm hurt. I feel abandoned. So when I ask them to pause and reflect on their why, why am I responding with anger? I invite everybody to ask that question, why is anger my response? Because it's actually not communicating what you really want to communicate. It's I'm hurt, but the anger is not sharing the message that really is the most important one you want to convey.

I have another thought on that.

Yeah.

As I interviewed all of the women that I had mentioned previously for these support groups, invariably I'd have women say, I'm contacting you for support because my husband's doing well, and I have so much rage. There must be something wrong with me because he's getting it right. It's feeling safe, and I've got raid. And what I learned from that was. Or what I believe from that, what I derived from that was. Oftentimes when we are in a survival mode, when we're just hanging on, hoping, we're. Oftentimes we don't have space or room or time to process what we're experiencing. And so when things start to settle down, when they start to feel a little bit safer, we may be hit by a bucket load of emotions that may show up. And you're not crazy, right? There's nothing wrong with you, but your body's been storing an awful lot. And when it starts to become safe, we might even be testing and saying, hmm, if he's really in recovery, if he's really got this, can he handle it? If I do show up with what's really been going on underneath here, how can he handle it? Because in the past, he couldn't handle it. So that anger part, that rage part, I think is complex, especially when you've been betrayed, because a lot of times you're just on autopilot.

And that's why I'm saying understanding your why for both partners is so important. Why is this rage inside of me? It's obvious. And yet my own awareness of why I'm angry is not as obvious, because it's usually going to boil down to something about myself. It triggers a belief in self. And to me, this is such an important concept, because when I've seen betrayed partners make the most progress, Marianne, it's because they understand their why. And then they begin to create boundaries and communicate More effectively and because they understand why they're responding the way they are.

Yes.

And that's so empowering. Rather than feeling like I'm going crazy because I'm so angry all the time, it's like, wow, I understand this rage inside of me, which I think is normal and natural, and yet it's not the ending point of your healing. And I'm going to also say that there's going to be cycles where you are angry and then you're going to be aware and like, that wasn't the best me. There's. I want to communicate that more effectively, what I was trying to say.

I have one other caveat I want to add to this. Just because as we're talking about this emotional realm, I really want to validate. There are times that our body is carrying emotions that we don't understand and we can't name and we can't say. This is why I'll have clients come in and say, I'm just weepy. I don't know what's going on. And, you know, I'll work my hardest with them. And sometimes we'll be able to say, oh, I had a miscarriage four years ago at this time. That makes sense. Our bodies hold onto things, but sometimes we cannot find the cognitive reasoning. And that's okay, too.

Yeah, that's sometimes, as you described, there's seasonal feelings or there's situations that were a year ago or two years ago. Yeah. But even that can be insightful. It's like, oh, wow, I'm starting to see my story this time of the year. I feel this way. I've had clients throughout my entire career. I can't deal with this month. This month is the most difficult month. It was the time I lost my dad and I did a D day and this happened.

Or it might be when my mom and dad had a separation when I was a baby and I didn't even know about it. And I like, there's so much there. And I think that's a space where we have to give ourselves just a lot of grace and compassion and room space and grace to allow whatever the emotion is meaning.

There's going to be times where you won't get to the why. It doesn't make sense. And yet what's interesting about that is even in reflection in getting to the point and say, I can't come up with something, to me, that's the work that I appreciate because you've given enough thought and like, I don't have anything on this one. And sometimes There are not relevant or good answers. Sometimes we experience things. The description of that comes from Daniel Siegel's work where he talks about implicit and explicit memories. And he says specifically there's certain memories or things that we feel that there's not a story that goes with it. It is just an emotional experience. So there are going to be times in our lives where there aren't good whys. In fact, we often see that with people with anxiety. They might have anxiety, they might not even understand why they're anxious, but they have it. And as we start to look at it, maybe it's genetically passed down, but it could be another thing that their body is not feeling safe in a certain environment. They might not even know why.

Yeah. As we get ready to close, I think there's just one other part that I want to bring into this and that is I think it might be maybe our human nature and our needing to know why to make sense of things so that our brain can rest. Because we've talked in the past about the Zeigarnic effect, that our brain wants to resolve things. And I think it's really important to recognize sometimes we judge ourselves. I think the more we can have the self compassion to say, hmm, let me dig a little deeper, let me understand myself a little bit more. And to bring in that lens of self compassion. I just think that's a really important part here because we're talking about some really hard, like nitty gritty why do we do what we do? And I can be really judgmental towards myself because of that. And that's not going to be very helpful.

What's interesting, what you just described, I could also go the other direction. When I've done introspection and I've done a lot of work, if I come to say my betrayed partner and say, this is I think my why. What if I that's weak. That's blame, that's justification. You're minimizing. That's one potential response. But if they've done that kind of work, help me understand more, maybe be curious there, because if I reject that effort of their why, I might actually be shutting them down because they're trying to figure out their why. You still might be confused. It might not make sense. But as they start to present it to you, be aware that maybe your response is, I'm starting to see your why. It doesn't make any sense to me.

Right.

But I'm starting to see what you're saying is that was your thinking and that's the gift of Understanding. Even if you don't agree and even if they are totally not fully getting that full insight, is there more you might ask? I'm wondering about this. This is your journey. I'm going to let you think about that because I don't want to presume I know your why. So I appreciate you thinking about it. It helps me know that you're thinking.

About it or see where you're at. I think maybe two words to sum up. I think what we've been talking about today that come to me are the courage and the curiosity. Because that's what you've been talking about is the curiosity. And whether it's allowing my partner to be curious and me just to be supportive of that, of wherever they're at and giving space for that. Once again, it's a journey. It's not an instant and it takes revision and time and. Hold on a second. I gotta look at this another way. But once again, this journey, I really think is internal curiosity and courage.

Yeah. Fantastic. Fantastic. All right. I just want to thank you, Marianne. It's always. I always appreciate these conversations. My. My final thought is understanding your why is a gift you give to yourself and your marriage or your relationship, and seeking time and just getting that insight. That's the gift you give to yourself. It really is. I'm going to learn more about myself and why I do what I do.

Yeah. You know, there's that quote from Dan Siegel that says that it's about feeling felt, and we can't feel felt until we can feel ourselves and understand ourselves.

That's a great way to close that concept. So, Marianne, one more thing before we close up today.

Okay.

All right. I am super excited because you and I are working on a project. It's titled Reclaim. And starting this off, we're going to have 12 episodes just helping people understand their involvement with pornographies. And Marianne and I are also going to be doing one just for betrayal, trauma, and then for reclaiming the relationship.

And so where will people find that, Dr. Skinner?

Well, you'll find it@humanintimacy.com and just under the podcast link, you'll see Reclaim will be launched there. We do it through Podbean, but just type in reclaim with Dr. Kevin Skinner.

So what's really exciting about this that I just want to point out is we often talk about sex addiction, sexual acting out behaviors, and this series is really just going to be focused on pornography.

Yeah, it is specifically on pornography. Like, I have an assessment based on the Recovery Capital model that's really what successful people do in overcoming drugs and alcohol. So I'm going to give people access to that assessment and then an assessment that I wrote called the Sexual Stress Inventory. And it looks at the most common, what we call addictive tendency. And people be able to explore that and their level of shame. So I'm so excited. It's going to be launched July 28, 2025.

Oh, that's so exciting. This is going to be such a great tool. So I'm really excited that we're able to offer that.

And then following that, in the next few months, Marianna and I will be doing one just for Betrayal Trauma. Much like this conversation, we'll be just talking about healing some of the trauma. So stay tuned. Reclaim. And it's going to be a series, we're 12 session series on both of them, those topics and then we'll do one for couples. So anyway, really excited to announce that.

Awesome. Thank you, Dr. Skinner.

All right, everybody, thank you for being a part of the Human Intimacy podcast. May you be blessed in your healing recovery and your pursuit of human intimacy.

Thank you very much. Goodbye.