From Hijacked to Healing: Navigating Triggers, Sobriety, and Repair after Sexual Betrayal (Episode #86)

On behalf of me and Marianne Michaelis, I'd like to thank you for being a listener of our Human Intimacy podcast this year. It's always a privilege to spend time with you and I want to express my deep gratitude. If you are ready to take your healing and recovery to the next level, you're ready to deepen your healing and strengthen your connection and gain real tools for meaningful change. I invite you to join us and other Experts at the 2nd Annual Human Intimacy Conference where myself, Marianne and many other leading experts will come together for powerful teaching, live question and answer sessions and provide insightful pre conference conversations to help you get the most out of your conference experience. And right now you can save 50% when you register before December 31st. Please don't miss this opportunity. Visit human intimacy.com and reserve your spot today.

Something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh.

Something surround. Welcome to the human intimacy podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner, Marianne Michael is licensed clinical social worker. I'm a marriage and family therapist. Been doing it for 31 years. 31 years, Marianne. It makes me feel a little bit old, but absolutely love the opportunity to interact with people. This upcoming week, doing a retreat, be with some couples in beautiful, beautiful Utah in the fall as leaves are changing colors. Absolutely excited for it. So mark your calendars. Next September 2026 spots are going to fill up fast.

I saw some pictures of where you're going. It looked beautiful.

Oh my goodness. So last week we started off. So it's two retreats back to pack and I'm going to tell you, absolutely beautiful. Right? It was phenomenal. So doing mountaintop therapy. Absolutely fantastic experience.

This is a couple of intensives.

Yeah, marriage retreat where we're talking about helping them deal with whatever issues they may be dealing with. But more important, we're out in nature getting a different sense experience using the visual and had some fun exercises on the top of the mountain. And anyway, I go through the process where I walk people through how to meet their most basic needs together and really work to rebuild trust. Phenomenal experience. Absolutely phenomenal. So looking forward to this next one. Anyway, that's what I've been up to, Marianne, a lot of fun.

Awesome. Well, I'm glad to be here today. I wonder, Dr. Skinner, today I know we're going to be talking about sobriety and partners. I'm wondering, in these retreats that you do, are there triggers that come up? Are there couples that struggle?

You know, interestingly enough, when we're together, there's a Few things that I work through to help couples as they come to an intensive. I usually give them homework to do beforehand. But in general, triggers may or may not occur. But being present with them as they occur, helping them navigate through them, and knowing how to comfort or soothe in those difficult moments when triggers occur, whether my spouse is in sobriety, usually people who come to our intensives have a high level of commitment to the relationship and have a period of time of sobriety behind them.

So this is like step three or four in their recovery journey. Okay.

Yeah. Usually the intensives, they've done some kind of disclosure, and they're working really hard to repair the relationship. Men often find themselves stuck. A lot of people make good progress, but there's still certain patterns that need to be interrupted.

And I know you and I have been talking about doing a retreat possibly in Hawaii next year as well, in 2026. So that possibly in the works, everybody.

Utah in September and maybe Hawaii in the springtime or as we deal with winter here in North America.

Yeah, all right. I know last week we were talking about shame, and when your partner disappears because they get swallowed up in a shame vortex and they're not present. And today we were planning on talking about my partners maybe acting out, maybe not sober, not using their recovery tools, I may be triggered. So whether it's their shame sucked them in or they saw something, and I saw that they saw something, and then they hit shame, I'm still standing here, maybe triggered. And what do I do with that? So what are your first thoughts, Dr. Skinner?

You know, the thing that comes up to my mind when we talk about triggers, whether their spouse is working recovery or not working recovery, triggers are going to happen. So I think we have to start off by saying, oh, we can fully expect that triggers will happen. And I think that we could even fairly say that triggers may happen years down the road, certain times of the year, maybe certain events, or another type of trigger that you may not have anticipated. I mean, for years, you're doing okay. And I've seen that with couples where they think, well, I thought I was through this. And that's often what I hear with people who've made tremendous progress. And they'll say something like, I thought I was through this. Why am I still having this type of a fear or this situation? And usually what we do is we break it down using the Hebbian law, which is neurons that fire together, wire together. And so a trigger, by nature, it's going to trigger a previous memory or experience, both emotionally, maybe Physically. So triggers are inevitable. It's how we respond to them. And that's really what I hope we can talk about today.

Marianne, I think it might be important for us, as we start this discussion, just to talk about what do we mean by triggers. I think I'm coming to this conversation assuming that our listeners and viewers know what we're talking about. But I think it can be good to define that. And when I'm using it, the word trigger, as you alluded to, it's something that our brain reacts to. So it might be a smell, it might be a taste, it might be a sensation. When I talk to my clients about trauma, I talk about how when we experience trauma, both the hemispheres of our brain aren't online together. And so that right side of the brain that has to do with all of our experiences, our touch, smell, taste, sound, everything, that's the part of the brain that's really processing there. And rather than being put into a tidy folder, this is where this fits. Because the left side's online, because it's not online. It's kind of like the experience goes through a paper shredder and it gets spread all around. It doesn't really have a home. And so this is where I can have a smell or a sight. And we live in a world, if we're talking about betrayal, trauma, we live in a world where there are sexualized images everywhere. Whether it's in the media, whether it's somebody walking down the street, doesn't matter where it is. And if I'm somebody who's struggling with acting out behaviors, I can pull something up in my mind. I can be at church. It doesn't really matter where I am. I can probably find a suggestive or a sexually suggestive image that I can spend some time in. And so if I'm the partner of somebody who's in this space, I might see a look. I might sense, like there's that glazed look in the eyes or there's kind of this distance. There's something. There's a disconnection from reality. There's something that I might notice. It might even be my spidey senses. Something might feel off. And my body may go into this. I'm not safe. It's an alarm system. And so the trigger is our body's natural alarm system saying, I've seen this before. And I associating this, this isn't safe. And so when that happens, it usually kickstarts our sympathetic nervous system, which hits us into fight or flight or freeze. And so Our heart's racing, and suddenly we're looking around wondering what's going on. I'm not safe. So that's at least what I'm talking about with triggers. Is there anything that you want to add to that, Dr. Skinner?

Yes. So a friend of mine, Ken Patey, many years ago taught me a concept. It's not necessarily his concept, but it's a relevant concept for what we're talking about. I wrote about it in my book Treating Pornography Addiction, the E Essential Tools to Recovery. And it's what we call a reaction sequence. So usually when we hit a trigger, there's some kind of a stimulus. You gave a few examples, right? A look or something in public, or maybe it's television, maybe some kind of movie. The trigger can come in a multitude of situations. So that's the stimulus. But usually from a stimulus, there is going to be some kind of thought and emotion. The thought could simply be, I don't feel safe, as you said. But that triggers an emotional response. So a stimulus typically is going to trigger some type of an emotional experience. And that emotional experience then sends a message to the body where if I don't feel safe, it's going to trigger a chemical release. And all of a sudden I might find myself in a fight or flight, as you said, response. So my body language is going to show it because I'm already getting that chemical bath of fear or worry or apprehension. And so now I'm feeling flooded of chemicals. And so when we say trigger, a trigger is triggering a thought, an emotion, a chemical response. And when we go through that whole process, by the time I catch up to all that has just occurred, I have probably a second thought. My rational brain now kicks in and says, what's happening here? How do I respond to this? But by that time, you may already be flooded and hijacked, using John Gottman's phrase. And if I'm flooded, then I'm ready for war. I'm ready to fight. Because the trigger hits. And now the rational thinking part of me says, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow down just a little bit or it gets overridden and you're just off to the war.

I think that second one is usually pretty likely when we're talking about betrayal.

Yeah. And so here's the trigger. And either a, I'm that or I'm pulling away and I'm removing myself from the environment. So the trigger is typically going to trigger either a fight response or a flee response. The second thought, if my emotions are intense, I blow through that second thought, that could be a rational thought, like, okay, what is the best way to respond here? And if I'm really attentive, I might recognize that it hit a core belief, and that's where we often miss it. But that core belief is usually either a look, they're lying, they're cheating, they don't love you, they don't care about you. You don't matter, you're not important, you're unlovable. Typically, people aren't going to go that deep when a trigger hits. But when we break it down, that's typically what I get to. When clients start looking at, what did that trigger mean about you? What does it say about you? When I do that work with them, it's a deeper work. They usually come up with a core belief about self as it relates to that trigger.

And usually when we're in that triggered space. I like that word you used earlier that hijacked. We are not thinking logically. Our prefrontal cortex is not usually online, and we are in that fight or flight. I've just got to survive right here. And so I would add to this that it takes some time for us to get to that place to think logically. We've got to get calmed back down. I remember years and years ago, I was sitting in church and there was a speaker when they started speaking. I have no idea what they said, but it hit me and it was just like. And my body had this reaction. I felt like I needed to vomit. I was so panicky. And whatever it was, the way that they were portraying themselves, the way that they were speaking, my body had this really visceral reaction for me. I had to sit there and go, oh, I am being so triggered right now. I need to get up and leave. I need to figure out how to take care of myself and go Take some time to walk around, to do some breathing, to figure out how do I get back into a state where I can re engage my prefrontal cortex. I knew I was safe. There wasn't anybody chasing me. There wasn't anybody hunting me down. But my body was reacting to something, to some stimulus. And so it takes some time. There's just this in between space that I think it's really important that we talk about between where I'm triggered. I have a lot of clients. They'll talk about, like, panic attacks. There's a hard time breathing. And that's not a time when I'm in a panic attack. That's not really where I'm going to Start logicing through. That's where I've got to help the nervous system relax. And then later on I can start working through that cognitive piece.

Exactly. And so this process, from the reaction to the response, usually it takes self awareness of what you just described. Often what happens there is in the moment. You're not going to get there in the moment. Your first task is, as you said, let's see if we can get back online. And that may be removing ourselves for a period of time. Some people do it in journaling, some people do it in a breathing exercise. But it's slowing down the mind and intentionally removing yourself from the environment. To me, the best gift that individuals give themselves and if they're going to work to repair the relationship, it's actually a timeout. We've talked about that many different times on the podcast. But this is a specifically important time because I have found that when people are triggered, if we're not cautious, the flooded brain, hijacked brain, it can go in ways that sometimes are regrettable because it's so overwhelming that fight response or that flee response. So giving yourself permission to take a time out is essential.

And I would say if I am the betraying partner, this is a place for sensitivity. I know that there can be like, oh, great, you're triggered again. Like there can be some frustration or some exasperation or even maybe some weaponizing of that and maybe some shaming and blaming, oh, great, here we go again. We can't even do this because you're triggered all the time. I've heard clients talk to me about receiving that type of feedback from their partner, but being able to sit in it and hold it and say, oh, this is really hard for you. I just want you to know that I'm here for you.

Yeah.

And for the partner who's been triggered to be able to say, hey, I'm having some really big emotions right now. I'm triggered. I need to take some time. But recognizing this is a really great opportunity to do repair work. If we are in that space, if we're working on recovery, this is a trust building opportunity.

Yeah. I often hear statements like, are you ever going to get over this? Because I think ultimately what's happening in that moment is the trigger hit. If I don't know how to comfort you, and then because I don't know how to comfort you, out comes my fight response, saying another way, my shame. And then because I don't know how to respond and I feel helpless, out comes those fighting words or just pulling away and withdrawing. And neither one of those actually helped the triggered spouse. So the capacity in that moment to recognize this may be a moment or an opportunity for making amends just by being present and trying to understand the pain and be with him in the trigger. Boy, that's a gift to the relationship that many people really struggle with. And I've seen people say, well, I tried it for an hour, I tried it for two hours, I tried it for three hours, and the trigger kept coming. And I'm going to just tell our listeners, if you're going 1, 2, 3, 4 hours in the triggered state, you're both going to wear down and you need to take a time out. You cannot emotionally deal with that because your energy is going to be depleted. And when your energy is depleted, as Dr. Roy Baumeister says, energy depletion usually leads to bad outcomes and bad choices. So take a time out. If you're not making progress in the trigger response, go do some individual work so you can actually communicate more effectively.

And this is where a sponsor can come in really handy. Several months ago, we did a podcast talking about navigating triggers in public, which is more about the betraying partner when they see something that's triggering, how to handle that. And one of the things that we say is that would be a time to reach out. That's a time to reach out to a sponsor and say, hey, once again, I'm hijacked. I've got these thoughts going on and I need somebody to help. I need to rent somebody else's prefrontal cortex. I need their space because I'm not thinking logically and I need some help. And this same thing goes for the betrayed partner as well. We need other people to help us think through, to validate and say, yeah, it makes sense, and to also give us comfort and validation and just reassurance. And when we do that, usually we regulate together. When other people are with us, we co regulate, and that helps bring us back down. And that's a really important part here.

I really appreciate that. By the way, I looked it up. It was podcast number 50, if you want to go through that one. Navigating to your podcast number 50. All right, but Marianne, what you just said is so critically important because there's plenty of research that shows when we have someone to be with us in more difficult times, we're more likely to withstand the emotional pain or the physical pain of the experience. And there's good research to support having a connector or a bonder when you're in that situation. So again, re emphasizing the importance of having connection when you are triggered or you don't know where to turn. Borrowing someone else's brain for a little bit of time to support you really, really valuable concept.

I think there's another part here that I'd like to talk about, and that's the self compassion. As you know, I always come back to that. But I remember doing my EMDR training and EMDR is trauma work and we practice on each other. That's how you learn. And so you get to do your own work. You're getting trained in this. But I remember going through and I had pain here, and I had pain here, and I had pain here. So just all over my body, I just had these different pain points and I didn't have a memory, I didn't know what it was from, but my body was carrying a memory. And so sometimes as we're trying to sort through, as we were talking about earlier, trying to figure out what is it that's behind this. Sometimes we just simply don't know. Sometimes this is something that my body has stored, it's held onto, and it's there. And it may be generational or it may be something from when I was an infant, or it may be a memory that I just don't really have anymore. And so also giving ourselves a lot of compassion and saying, there's nothing wrong with me, that I'm responding to a trigger. My body is trying to help me out here. It picked up something that in the past was threatening or that it's perceiving right now as being threatening, and it's actually trying to help me. So can I be kind to myself and give myself loving kindness in this space and say it's okay for me to be reacting this way? Oftentimes I think we, we tell ourselves, I shouldn't, I should be better now. I should be at a point where this doesn't bother me. We might shit on ourselves a little bit here and really pulling back from that and just saying I've experienced some really hard things and my body is responding to something. I'm not sure what it is. And that's okay. But what can I do to be kind to myself? Just like I'd be kind to a child or a friend and give that to myself.

Yeah. And the thing that I would add on to that is while it is okay to understand, navigate through, deal with that trigger in recognizing I'm feeling these things, the behavior or actions is where I see most people get stuck. And that's the part Where I see I was triggered and I X, Y, Z'd and whatever the XYZ is where I see the shame. I threw something, I broke my phone, I slapped, I punched, I kicked, went and got a bottle and drank. I looked at the pornography myself. I again, I've heard all of these responses to the triggers and what we discover there. When you're doing those things, the aftermath of the trigger triggering you into that space is often where I feel so bad about what I did. I feel bad. And so that is so important for us to be able to step back before the trigger consumes us to a place where we regret. And that's why I think this podcast is so important. Helping you before that place. Anyway, I just think that's very important.

I'm hearing you talk about the shame that shows up. My partner did something or I was triggered by something and I reacted in a way that I'm not proud of. I reacted in a way that goes against my value system. And now I feel yuck. I feel really icky and I'm embarrassed and I have shame because that's not who I am. And then I kind of get into a place where I'm looking at myself going like, okay, well I'm.

No, I've heard that before. Where I feel like I'm no better than. Than what my spouse did because of what I did. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that one in my office. Marianne, I heard you almost saying it, but I've heard that statement.

I was going to edit that out, but we'll leave it in there then. Dr. Skinner. So let's talk more about that because I think that's important because we're trying to judge ourselves on my partner did this, therefore they hurt me. And so we have some power differentials at play here. And then, yeah, we get stuck in this place. Well, I did something just equally as bad and now what do I do.

With that and the concept of equally bad? Interesting perception, right? Because again, I'm not the judge. But what I will say is that self interpretation, I'm no better than speaking clearly. I don't respect my spouse anymore. I don't like what they've done. That's a real thing that I've heard over and over again. And I don't like how I responded. Take out the better or less or worse or whatever and just simply I can say despise. I can't stand what my spouse did. But when I look in the mirror, if I can't Deal with my own stuff there, whatever it is, my own actions, then really, that internalization, I'm no better than. Well, again, it's not better than there's no compassion there. This natural, normal response. I am embarrassed the way I responded and I can do that part better. That's getting to the awareness, yeah, you can respond different. Let's have some compassion in this process. Great. You learn through this, but it doesn't define you. Just like a person's actions in acting out doesn't define them. Change is a process and people can reclaim their lives, they can live better lives. And that's what I love about our work, is I get to witness that. I can tell you, watching people come through our intensives and watching the work that they're doing. I'm in awe, Marianne, of some of the work that people are doing because they genuinely are. Like, I'm not going to live the way I was living. And as Patrick Kern said in his book Don't Call It Love, he said, when they looked at, I think it was over a thousand people who had acted out that were in 12 step groups. There was one line in there that stood out to me. They look back after a year plus of sobriety, they look back at their former selves with abhorrence. That's the exact language that he used. He said many of them look back at that former self. That is self compassion, except for it's not there yet. Abhorrence is. I can't believe what I did. Self compassion. But I'm better than that. That doesn't define me.

And I would add just the perspective of looking back through that lens of self compassion and seeing the pain. I acted that way. I had that behavior. And can I give myself compassion? Because, man, I must have been in so much pain. I must have been hurting so badly. I must have been so lost, so confused, so needing to stop the pain so much that I acted in that way that I'm not proud of at all. That's not who I am. For a moment, I was flooded and I reacted in a way that I'm not proud of.

Yes. So, Marianne, as we get ready to close, I want to give our listeners six things to do. You do three, I'll do three. Six things to do. We're doing this on the spot, we're doing on the fly, I should say six things. You've been triggered. You find your mind hijacked or flooded, overwhelmed. What's your number one thing?

And then I'll go, yeah, you put me on the spot. Dr. Skinner. I think for me, the first one is I have to become cognizant that I've been triggered. Usually I have to check myself and go, oh. And one of the things I've learned from Dan Siegel that I think is so important is name it to tame it. So for me, I have to say it out loud. Oh, my goodness. I've just been triggered. I'm having some really big emotions, so I'm trying to recognize it and honor it. Saying it out loud, I've been triggered. That's my number one starting place. Okay.

So you're identifying it. You're recognizing the trigger. So for me, my number one would probably be where you went, but I would add it onto one small little element there, which would be so, like my 1A there. Because I think you're right. Absolutely right. But my a there is. Once you've named it and you're aware of it, it's actually turning inward to your body.

That's my number two.

Okay. So, yeah, so one and two here. What's it doing to me? Because you get that, as I mentioned earlier, the reaction sequence, now my body is feeling this, and that is really the body's red flag of coming up and saying, we need to do something here. Because as I go into that, I know I'm going to be in fight mode or flee mode. And often there is where I need to figure out how to more effectively respond. So now we've looked at the thoughts, Recognize that. Now we're looking at our body. What's your next step?

So I'm going to give you my next two together, because at this next space, I can go either direction, and it just depends on what situation I'm in. One direction that I might go is I might say I'm going to spend some time, and I'm just going to allow myself to sit in this emotion. I'm going to sit with it. So I've recognized it, I've said it out loud. I've noticed where it is in my body. And rather than push it away or say, I don't want this, or run away from it, avoid it, I'm going to actually see if I can pull in my focus and just say, I'm going to sit here. And this is where I might start kind of digging in. I might be writing it, or I might just be talking myself through it. But. Okay, what is this? Oh, I just felt rejected. Oh, okay. Where do I feel that in my body? Oh, I feel it in the bottom of my gut. Hmm. Okay. So I might be tracing it down, trying to figure out, was I rejected? Is that what this really is? Have I felt this somewhere before? What does this remind me of? I'm going to focus, like laser focus on giving myself permission to actually feel it.

Yeah.

And usually I find when I do that, within 90 seconds or so, my brain gets bored. Sometimes it'll be a couple more minutes in that. But if I'm just saying, where is it in my body? How big is it? How wide is it? Is it a poking pain? Really hyper focusing on it, giving myself permission. Okay, if I feel sad, I'm going to just let myself feel sad and be sad in this moment. So that's one way that I bring myself down from the trigger. That's one option. The other option is I will go find someone that I can say it out loud to. So it depends on what's available, what situation I'm in. So whether I go internally or whether I go externally, that's my number three.

So for me, what you just described, if I was breaking down what you just said, that number one is really a process, Marianne, where if we were looking at emotions, I'm buffaloing up, right? I'm not running from the emotion. I'm not burying their emotion. I'm not saying, don't feel this way. You gotta calm yourself down. I'm just being an observer. Using what we've referred to previously in another podcast is the Cole approach, where, you know, I'm curious, I'm observing, or I'm open to it, I'm accepting that I'm feeling this way and then loving kindness. But if I pause there, Marianne, and say, I can run from this emotion, I can face the emotion. What you're describing there is facing the emotion and not being afraid of what's going on inside of me. And that curiosity place, boy, that is a skill. It really is a skill. And when you learn to do that, you're going to feel more control over your mind. And in, in Dan Siegel's words, you being your whole body, you're going to feel it. And so then I'm going to incorporate some breathing exercises, some self compassion, listening to what this body's saying and say, of course this makes sense. I'm triggered. And then what begins to occur is you begin to feel a sense of control of emotions. Like, I can actually influence my emotions by being present with them and not being afraid of them or trying to ignore them. And so that's a powerful step that you just described. And then the other part of it you said getting connection. Again, if you look at the research, positive outcomes is really in connection. So being able to say, boy, I need someone else right now. And interestingly enough, I might include even an animal in that. I've had people pet their cat, their dog, and just be part of it. Some people need a little bit of a breather. They'll go outside and just be in a backyard or go on a walk. So it's an awareness of, I've been triggered. I need to just go make sense of this rather than instantly react. The goal is actually to respond rather than to react. React is a visceral fight or flight. Respond is more intentionally. How do I respond to the trigger?

And usually if we're responding, we need a second to catch our breath, even just to say, okay, I'm triggered, and I'm going to respond. And I'm going to need a little bit of time so that I can slow it down to respond. I want to add, I guess, my number four.

We said, you can do three, you're gonna do four.

I went over a G ring. I think number four for me is a really important one. And that's really exploring. As I'm sitting there in that emotion, letting myself feel sad. If I can, I'm gonna ask myself two things. Have I felt this before in the past? And where have I felt it before? So that's a whole line of thought that I can do some writing about while I'm trying to make sense of it. Cause I'm really just trying to understand what just happened. So have I felt this before? And where. And that's going to help me go, oh, this is rejection. This is abandonment. This is X, Y, Z. So I look at that. Or. Or I look at it and I say, is this a protective part? And is this part showing up? What's it trying to help me with right now? So it's got a job. If it's a part, it's got a job and it's trying to keep me alive. And then I really explore with that part, why are you showing up now? What are you trying to help me with? And then I can maybe have that conversation. And that ties back into where have I felt this before? And, oh, I'm not nine years old anymore. Oh, I'm not in danger anymore. I'm okay. So maybe I have that conversation with this part. Did you realize that I've grown up and this. This isn't actually really a threat for me right now?

Yeah. So I really like that my addition to that is Something that you often talk about. When we're triggered, something happens inside of us that we typically don't have self compassion. It's almost as if we think I shouldn't feel this way, or it's wrong for me to be experiencing anger or maybe I haven't forgiven. We often hear that one. I would step back from there. And for me, the part of this whole equation is to have compassion with the trigger, that self compassion. And I'm gonna feel this way. And. And I can acknowledge that that is a common feeling in a variety of situations, especially with what I've been through. And I don't have to be angry. I don't have to be mean. I don't have to be any of that. I can simply be triggered. And that's okay. In my emotions, I can understand it. And I might be angry and I might be able to let. Let loose for a minute and put a space in between this trigger and frustration.

And.

But maybe I'm doing it in a car or on a walk or in my journal because I recognize my partner, spouse, they're not gonna be able to handle this. They're not gonna be able to be with this right now. But I have to give it a voice. And really, what am I trying to communicate? What is this trigger? And it may be something that would be really helpful for you to explain to your spouse, but if you've properly prepared for that conversation, it's gonna lead to better outcomes. So for me, in this process, we're literally learning how to be better communicators. And that's something that we all need to be able to do, is be able to communicate effectively when we are struggling with our own emotions.

Oh, I want to deepen that. Dr. Skinner. I think we're learning to communicate with ourself, and we're learning how our body communicates with us as well. And so I know that you're a runner. I'm a musician. Some people do a lot of art or crafts or whatever it is. Some people cook, some people garden. It's figuring out for each of us when our body communicates to us. I'm dysregulated. I'm scared. I've hit something from the past that is mayday, Mayday. Now has the time to panic. It's figuring out what's my go to that helps me. Words are really important to me. And so I even have some places where I have words or sayings that I can go to. I also go to funny kitten videos sometimes when I'm just Like, I've got some big emotions, and I need a relief. I need to figure out how to get over them. And so figuring out for each one of us, what are my go tos, what do I do? And oftentimes, I do think we need to have them written down. So you're saying what are your top three? Marianne, we all have to figure out what our top three or top five, are. Where we go when we're triggered, what works. Yeah, Y.

Absolutely. Having a plan. All right, Marianne, as we get ready to close up shop, I want to just do one thing real quick. Triggers are inevitable. Having a plan is essential. And learning how to be with those emotions in a way that you feel confident that you can respond to them, that's where genuine confidence comes in. And so being able to communicate those effectively, really important. All right, one more thing. Coming soon, Marianne and I have a special announcement for you, our listeners. And I think our listeners know that we started Reclaim. It's healing from pornography and rebuilding your life. And Marianne and I are excited to announce. I'll let you announce it, Marianne.

We are announcing a new podcast and a new course. It's called Rise, Hope and Healing after Sexual Betrayal. And this is a podcast specifically focused on betrayal trauma, especially those first early stages of. I just found out that I've been betrayed. What do I do? So we're going to be talking more about triggers, more about the ptsd, more about our body's responses, and just the very early stages of betrayal trauma. And we've got a course that's also involved that you can subscribe to that's going to help walk you through learning how to navigate the early stages of betrayal trauma. And later on, we'll be adding to that and adding some other stages, but that's where we're starting right now.

Yeah. And what I'm excited about, this will begin in October, so we'll be announcing it in our upcoming podcast. But the exciting part of that is people participate in the course. They're going to be able to get on, ask us questions, and really get more personalized answers to personal questions that we can't necessarily do on the podcast. And so to our listeners, that's called Rise, and it's going to be coming soon. Rise, Hope, and Healing from Sexual Betrayal. So we're excited to announce that. And, Marianne, it's always good to spend this time as we talk about really important topics for couple healing and individual healing from sexual betrayal.

All right, thank you, Dr. Skinner.

All right. To our listeners. Have a great week. And we'll see you soon.

Bye.

Something surround you. It's like you're shining, you're staring.