Gaslighting, Lies, and Healing: The Path to Rebuilding Trust After Betrayal (Episode #54)

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But smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh.

Welcome to the human intimacy podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner and my friend, Dr. Sherry Denham Keffer. And. And I'm going to introduce her in a second. She is a regular co host of the nationally syndicated radio talk show New Life Live with an audience of more than 2 million people each week. That's incredible. Dr. Kevver.

It's fun. There's a lot of people that call in. It's kind of like free therapy, actually, you know, because there's usually three of us that are talking and answering questions that people have about all kinds of stuff. But I tend to be the one that people call and ask questions about betrayal of all kinds. So.

Yeah, well. And you are the author of Intimate Deception, Healing the Wounds of Sexual Betrayal. I just want to make our listeners aware of that. Dr. Koeper and I met back in 2016. We were in Seattle and I was just being brought on as a faculty member for the International Institute of Trauma and Addiction Professionals. And she came up during a break and she said, oh my gosh, you're doing what I want to do and I'm doing. And so we started talking about gaslighting. We started talking about something that she was working on and passionate about and I was passionate about it.

It.

And we have done some collaborative projects since then and I wanted her to come on the show with me today just to talk about some of our experiences related to gaslighting. We're going to talk a little bit about some of the common mistakes that people make when they attend therapy and some of the things that you can expect from a therapist to really get a positive outcome. So Dr. Keffer welcome.

Thank you. I appreciate it. And I, I will never forget that treat training that we were in together, because I remember listening to you thinking, this guy is really passionate about betrayal and about partners. And like, you got it. And I was in the middle of doing some research, which is in my book, but I ended up after that training with you, I talked to you about the deception piece because my book is called Intimate Deception. And it was the lies and the gaslighting and all of that that I is offending behavior that's harmful behavior. Psychological abuse can be a part of that. But as I brought it to you, we decided. I decided. We decided together. I threw my research out and I started all over again with you. And that research is actually the research that's in my book. And I think it made a huge difference to add that intimate deception to the work that we did. So it's not only the sexual acts. And that, that's one of the questions that I ask, Betrayed partner is I say, okay, while both of these things are horribly painful, not trying to judge either one, right. Let's just say they're both horribly painful. Which one is more devastating or more painful to you? Is it the sexual acts that have happened in your relationship or is it the continue lies, the. The lies and continued lies that happen? And 65% of the women that I surveyed said it's the lies, it's all of that that erodes the foundation of the relationship. And, and I'm telling you, this list of all the sexual acting out behaviors was everything from porn, cyber sex, emotional affairs, sexual affairs, even illegal sexual activity was a part of that. You just hear that list and you're like, oh, like it's so weighty. And so why is that lying, deception, gaslighting, deflecting, blame shifting so damaging to the individual who's on the other side doesn't know that the one they love is sexual acting out. They have, you know, been outside of consenting to that. But, you know, how is that damaging to us as betrayed partners? And so I'm looking forward to talking about that with you.

You know, and since we've been gathering research, I mean, honestly, I've been gathering research for this for now work. It's crazy. It's been 20 years since I started working on this project of looking at, you know, betrayal and the post traumatic stress symptoms. And then it's kind of a crazy thing how that even came about. I don't know if I've ever told you this story, but I was sitting in my office and I was looking at the PTSD symptoms and I've been thinking, being trained as a researcher, what is it that actually would increase this, this, these PTSD symptoms? And so I sat down, I'll never forget that day many years ago. And I'm like, well this is something I've heard and this is something I've heard and I just put these ideas together and I called it my blame and denial skill. So it's just a simple blame and denial. And I started gathering research on it and that's really was the genesis of this whole looking at what I later learned, the term gaslighting on which I didn't even know that term until probably 2013. I'd never heard of it. And then I'm sitting at this training, I'm like, they're talking about, they use the word gaslighting. I'm like, man, I have a scale for this. I wrote this many years ago. I just didn't have that term gaslighting. And so then when I met you, it's like you added some phenomenal components to this on looking at the deception and the gaslighting and adding things like financial deception is a part of the acting out. Right. And we just, I think just that collaboration was really helpful for, for me and for the scale that now literally thousands of people have taken that, a new and improved scale on gaslighting. And I think it's influenced our work and it's influencing our whole field because now we're starting to gather research about the long lasting implications of gaslighting.

Yeah. And you know, I think for me, Kevin, I honestly, as someone who's experienced it firsthand, lived for years in a situation where I was duped. Right. I was under deception. I did not know there wasn't an agreement between me and my former husband Connor. And I talk about him in my book and tell the story story. But I also talk about the road to recovery. But I think when you see something as a betrayed partner, let's just say I noticed, you know, I found pornography. And then you would bring that to your significant other. And then they, they say, I don't know what you're talking about, or that's not mine. Maybe one of our kids got on the computer. You know, like I think about back in my situation, like I got into the car one day with Connor and I just noticed that not the driver's seat, but the next passenger seat, it was reclined just a bit like we were going to go somewhere, just run an errand. And I remember thinking that's weird. Normally I don't sit back this far. I can't, you know? And then he forgot his wallet, so he had to run in the house. And so I got out, and I was trying to just make the seat go up a little bit more, and I noticed a long black hair on the headrest. And immediately, like, flashed through my mind, okay, like, could that be one of our staff? Because he was a pastor and we had staff that served along with us. And I started thinking about the gals that had long black hair. Maybe that was Thea. Maybe it's. You know. And then my whole body went through a reaction. I felt numb. I could just feel like the blood drain out of me. And then Connor started coming back out. And you know what I did? I just swallowed all that pain like a coyote swallows rancid meat. It just went so deep inside of me. I didn't know what to say. I was afraid to ask. And I had other times where I had caught him, caught money, you know, missing out of an account. And he was like, our bank account, like, $200 coming out, $200. And he's like, I don't. I don't know. I. I don't know where that. Where that's coming from. And there were times that he owned, you know, like, I would find him 900 number lines. He said, yeah, I made some calls. It's a sex line. So between him admitting to sometimes and the other times, you know, the 200 was for a prostitute, and, you know, I didn't know what was true. And between the lying, the hiding, the denying, the blame shifting, making it about me, you know, so often we feel the one we're with will say, you're just getting triggered. I don't know. Or you're just jealous, or. It's always something, you know, that there's this quick answer, and it comes so quickly. And then you begin to question yourself. You begin to go, well, maybe. Maybe I. That. Maybe that is a trigger and I need to. What am I doing? You know? And then we turn inside trying to figure out. We turn. We. We. We actually turn ourselves into pretzels in order to try to figure out what is going on and to make sense of it. And oftentimes the pretzel gets focused inward because that's the only thing we can trust is, well, maybe it is me instead of. It's not you. It's what's happening around you that is so disorienting.

And what generally, at least in my experience what happens is you begin to question everything that you think you understood. And am I seeing this right? Am I not seeing it right? And there's so much confusion that when you do finally find out what is really happening, at least you think you know what's happening. That's when I see the deeper rage. And I also see people shutting down, because now they're like, I thought I knew, and now my instincts are off, and I can't predict this. Now what do I do? Because I can't trust myself, my own feelings, because somehow I missed it, or I had the instinctive response that I knew what was going on. And I. And I. I did try to confront it, but they lied to me. They looked me in the eyes and lied to me. And that's where we see the deeper levels of trauma manifesting. And that's what our research shows. You have deeper levels of trauma when you have higher, elevated levels of gaslighting, what you just described.

And. And this is a crazy thing, and I love that you mentioned the word rage, because you know what I think? As betrayed partners who get spun out, we get mad. We feel enraged. We go from zero to a hundred in a nanosecond, because whatever's being put on us, like our gut, our. Our whole body is like, what? No, no. You know, and when that happens again and again and again, it's like. It's just. It's like volcanic. We just get more enraged. And this is what's even more painful, is we go in for help, and now we're sitting there in front of a trained therapist or counselor or clergy, and we're fit to be tied because of all the gaslighting and the minimization and the blame shifting. And so we go in, and this has happened to me, you know, going into a session where there's gaslighting that's going on, and. And the one who's acting out. Right.

Alma's a cucumber.

Yeah, they're. They're making it. Well, I just. You know, every time I talk, you know, she gets upset or defensive. And so it's happening right there. And. And I would react. And then I have been shushed. Whoa, whoa. Back up, back up. You need to calm down in here. And even the clinician begins to see me as the one who's got some quote unquote issues and isn't really seeing the harm that is happening right under their nose. And. And they're. They're also duped. And. And they can align. I'm unknowingly aligned with the one who's deceiving and blame shifting and hurting me. And that just feels so. Like it's another level of crazy making when I'm reaching out to get help and being missed.

I have a term for that one. I. I was social gaslighting.

Okay, say more.

Well, put it in the context. So now I've done it in this relationship between me and you, but now I'm leading other people astray, making you look like you've got a problem. And so socially, I'm now out there, putting you out there, making you look like the bad person because I don't want to deal with this. And so I'm manipulating other people socially. So I call it gaslighting.

And it makes so much sense. And it makes so much sense to hear about it. I've heard the phrase smear campaign, which is a smear campaign is when somebody makes you look bad to other people. But what is a smear campaign? It is what you just called it. It is social gaslighting. I have a narrative about you that I'm telling families, I'm telling friends of ours, and we don't often know that is going on. I mean, I've seen situations where, you know, I've gotten a screenshot from someone who was able to see what their, you know, significant other was sharing to other people. And they're not talking about the truth. They're not talking about the sexual acting out they're doing. They're not taking ownership over any of that. They're saying, oh, well, this person, she's really, she's got some issues. She's really got some anxiety problems. And if you could pray for me, brother, you know, if you could help me, if you could. And. And so then people begin to look again at the betrayed partner as there's something sadly wrong with her. Instead of there's some secret acting out that is. Is being hidden. And they're again, unknowingly colluding with the social gaslighting. Because it sounds so believable when the story hasn't been honestly told.

Well, and taking it in that context, I might even hear someone admit, well, you know, I did, I did some things wrong. And I have to acknowledge that. But, but. And then they continue. Here's the transition. But if you just knew all the anger and the hatred and I've said I'm sorry, I've all these things, and I just. She's for won't forgive. Or in some situations where it's men, they won't forgive. They're always angry at Me. And I, I honestly, I've done everything I can. I've said I'm sorry over and over and over and over again. And what they're truly not doing at home is helping their partner feel felt. Using that Dan Siegel phrase, you know, feeling felt. And I think in this context, many times, many betrayed partners, what I hear them say, betrayed spouses, I just want to be heard. I want, I wanted them, I want them to understand my pain.

Yeah. And I have to say this, Kevin, as I just listened to you, I felt my body. Can I just be vulnerable?

Yeah.

I was talking to you and my heart was pounding in my chest. Honestly, I was hearing the very scenario that you were talking about. And I can appreciate this idea of feeling felt because she wants that. And this is where the insanity happens is she wants to feel felt. But even more than that, she wants him to own it, to own capital O W N. And you can't feel felt without there being integrity and honesty over what you are doing and not doing. And, and this, Kevin, is where I see in the work that I do with couples. I've been trained in something called urcm, it's Early Recovery Couples Empathy Model. And basically what it is, is it's having couples come in at some point and the betrayed partner having the opportunity to bring to the one who betrayed her the nuances of what's going on and the harm. And then I get to work with him to help him to what you just said, feel, or you know, work on feeling her. Not just thinking, not defending, not blaming. Because there's often shame pop ups that come up for him in the work and he begins to move away and minimize and restore the story. But she knows when he's restoring the story and she's trying to be as brave as she can or he can to talk about what happened. And, and so in that, what I'm noticing, and I've added this, I have something called an empowerment wheel that I developed a number of years ago. And I've. It's in my book Intimate Deception and I'm working on a book just on that right now. But this is what happens in the coupleship because of the shame pop up that's coming up for him trying to tap that down. Things began to change and I have added the word self deception to my list of things that can happen. It's not just when they minimize or ignore, avoid or you know, spiritualize or make excuses about what they're doing. There's sometimes when they're actually deceiving themselves. They're lying to themselves in order to not feel bad about the behaviors that they did or about their own, the strategies. And I'm not even saying they're doing the strategies on purpose, but there is a scaffolding that deception serves to keep themselves intact or safe from having to be exposed and to take ownership. And so ownership, feeling felt, is like how you begin to take in the pain. And then I would say that ownership over what they've done is like a bedfellow of that. Because if it's just empathy, without that ownership, it falls flat and she ends up the betrayed partner. She or he ends up con continuing to be activated, not because they're in trouble or they're doing it on purpose. Something isn't lining up on the inside of them and they know it.

So I love the way you're describing this. So 2023, the fall of. I published a book, rebuild you'd relationship after sexual betrayal. And I have a chapter in that book titled Gaslighting no More. And what I do is I actually take the questions from the gaslighting scale and I have the couple go through it, how it was manifesting in their relationship from both of their perspectives. And then we lean directly into the specific actions that were that you were gas lighted on or gas lit on. Because if those aren't addressed, and this is again from the research that we've done together, if we don't address the gaslighting, I'm not sure the couple can heal.

I, they can't. I was just like, I, I, I'm with you, you know, and I would, I just go, they can't. Because. And, and why is that? Why is it? It's because we are still in fear that I can't trust you. I can't believe you. I have seen more healing happen because the one who betrayed and was using the gaslighting, blame shifting, whatever that didn't feel good, whatever those behaviors are, has come to a point. They're not blaming it on the addiction. They're not blaming it on the alcohol. They're not blaming it on. Well, I was. Da, da, da. Or you and I were. They actually say I did it, right? I was lying to you. I, I had a precious couple that I was working with. We went through something called a therapeutic full disclosure and a polygraph. It's a part of, you know, what we do to help people get into truth. And it's a phase that I, you know, talk about in my betrayal recovery roadmap. It's phase two and three. Which is basically processing the betrayal trauma and then restoring integrity and getting the relationship back into realignment. So he was dishonest with her. He was dishonest with the. The CSAT certified sex addiction therapist. He went all the way to the Polygrapher and was hedging his bets that he was going to be able to get through the process. And this was a thing that he was going to take to the grave. He's just like, you know, she'll never survive this. I just don't even want it out there, you know? And what happened in the 11th hour, he decided to not hedge his bets, but just come clean. And, you know, the, the thing that he was feeling so ashamed about is he had acted out not only with females, but with men. And that's not so uncommon. Right. And you know that probably from doing the disclosures and not. But there was all this tremendous shame that he was like, it's gonna just. It's just too big to get honest about post that. So he was brave. You know, we ended up getting the information. We were able to share it in, in the coupleship. And of course, she was impacted by that. They were both impacted. They continued to, to go through treatment. Right. And care and do the hard, hard work. And he got to a place early on where he said this to her. And I, I was a witness of this. He said, I knew I was gaslighting you. I chose to do that because I didn't want you ever to find that out. And I'm telling you, it was a wild goose chase that she went on based on a physical condition she got. And that one thing, that one piece of information, she couldn't let it go, but for him to actually own it. And then now he's gone out to different SA groups and SAA groups where he's talking to the guys about doing polygraphs in, in the structure. Not just going out to Acme Polygrapher, but going through the process that we went through. And you do, right, because he says, I'm free. Like I am finally in. In integrity and I'm not hiding anything else. And the couple was able to move into integrity. And the couple is still together. They are six years down the road and they are moving in a place of just really rebuilding and restoring forward with a different foundation. Like, he doesn't want to go back there again.

And the ownership, as you described, right, that ownership, the humility, the willingness to acknowledge. So when I have clients working through this, the capacity to say, I did lie to you, in fact, I looked, you in the eyes and lied to you when I was in the thick of my behaviors and acknowledging that and owning it, and that was wrong. The healing of those honest statements can be so profound because now I'm. I. I can be free if I'm the person who's been doing that. And the person who was betrayed now has a sense of. This person is finally telling me the truth. Because they acknowledge that not just the behaviors, but the deceptiveness, the hidden behaviors, the manipulation. These are the things that I did to manipulate you to do certain things. Boy, when you do that, you make tremendous progress.

Huge. Huge. And it's like a huge hot air balloon that's been like. Like that's been in that relationship. If you. If you just imagine a hot air balloon, and then one person is on one side of the hot air balloon hanging on for dear life, and the other person's on the other side, and there's just all this hot space in between them. And it. It's just an impossible. It's. It's impossible for them to even hold hands and. And get to the other side of this. You begin to see that how do everything in the basket, like, collapse? And then pretty soon they start coming down to earth like they can actually get in the basket again. It lets so much out of what is in between. The coupleship. And the partner feels a sense that maybe now I can begin the repair process of starting to trust what he's telling me. Did you hear that, Kevin? Maybe now I can begin the process of starting to trust what he's telling me. Now there's like four hoops that she's got to jump just to get there. But it is a big shift, and you and I are not having this conversation so that people are writing down, oh, I just need to tell her this. I just need to tell her this. I just need to tell her this. Don't do it. Just don't say the words. We're talking about a process that is a real process of coming to terms with what has happened and what you've done and taking full ownership over it so that the partner has been. Who's been betrayed can believe you going forward.

And then you see the repair process begin. Begin using that phrase again to accelerate. Because there's truth that's being told. I see couples take their step. I mean, sometimes in the change process, it's so gradual. And then when you do things like that kind of restitution through honesty, you begin to see this accelerating. It's like we're pushing the Gas down on the gas pedal and we are moving forward. And I have seen couples and that when they do it right, when they do it right, it's, it's almost like there's a renewal to this relationship. And again, yes, it's the beginning. And yeah, there's still lots of challenges, but it's like I have been begging for this, begging for it, and now I'm finally getting it. So thank you.

It's so true. There's such a redemptive component in it. You said that so well. It's, it really is a, it's probably the biggest shift that I look for hope for, believe for long for in folks that I am working with. And, and it's, it, it's. We can share that, right? I know you have, you have lots and lots of images and people and stories in your mind where you see those shifts happen and, and they become hope bearers for me. They become hope bearers for you. Like they, these are the types of moments and relationships that keep you and I doing what we're doing. Because this is hard, right? It's, it renews our spirit inside to go. This is possible. It happens. Yeah.

And I lean into this for just a second because I've often thought, especially when we see the positive outcomes and we hear the, we hear the resistance, they'll, they'll reject me, they'll divorce me, they'll hate me. They'll never be able to get over this. Notice those fear based statements that are dictating whether you're going to be completely transparent, honest, and about how you lied. Contrasting that with what we are describing here, the freedom. And there's no other word that is as descriptive, it is freeing when you have no more deception, no more hidden behaviors. And truly I think that's where the accelerated healing occurs in your own recovery as well.

Couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. And you know, it was interesting when I think about the story that I shared in him, gathering his freedom, finding it, getting grounded in that. It felt so good to him. He didn't want to go back. You know, it's, you know, he just didn't want to go back. It was like when you buy your freedom with, with bleeding it out, through having to walk through the pain and, and realizing that maybe they'll stay, maybe they're, they won't once they know. The tr. Folks we work with, I see like the high 90s of people that end up staying through the process, even post disclosure and polygraph. It's shocking how how much the truth helps people restore the foundation of trust and safety. You know, when you see a free man or a free woman that isn't hiding, all the energy that goes into covering up and all the energy that goes into the one who's trying to figure out what's going on, it's so soul sucking. It depletes. It depletes energy. It, it, it's, it makes it difficult for you to focus in on what's right in front of you. On your family, on your work, on your relationship. It's, it's like there's a hole in your boat and there's just, you know, energy spewing out. You can't function. But once that is restored, it's literally like someone has patched the, the bottom of this boat and we're working on building and, you know, putting steel belts around that and, you know, yeah, we had, we had to restore and put brand new boards down there, but we are, we are not taking on water anymore like we were.

And, and then the true intimacy can begin.

Say more.

Well, okay, so I don't believe we allow ourselves to be truly intimate when we're living in deception. You used a word earlier. Self deception, relationship deception. When we can be authentic with our spouse, then they can see into us. That phrase, into me. See. See, intimacy. You don't want someone to see into you when you're being deceptive or you're deceiving them in some way. So really the, the beginning of depth of intimacy comes when I'm you. You look into my soul. You can see me. You can know me. True intimacy begins there.

I wish you all could see me because I'm. I'm smiling right now. I'm smiling as I hear your words, because I really. They ring true. If I was a violin, you would have just like all the strings were playing at that moment, as in my heart as I was hearing you. Because it's so true. We can't be intimate. No matter how much we want that. We can't tap it down. We can't have the one who betrayed us take it at us out to these meals and, you know, wine and dine us or, you know, do the dishes or take care of the kids or all those, you know, trying to patch it up kind of behaviors to just get past the past or past what happened. It's impossible. And until there's a place of true intimacy and that comes out of, I have nothing else to hide. I'm.

This is who I am, and that's it. That's who I am, right? What you see is what you get. A friend of mine used the phrase old computer drum wysiwyg. What you see is what you get. And when. And that's when we. That's who we are in a relationship. It's. It's predictable. I really believe human intimacy is based upon safety. And safety comes in honesty and authenticity. And when it's not present, when it's missing, then the suffering in both parties begins in some way. Because usually, not always, betrayed partners have a sense that something's off. They can't put their finger on it. That's where the gaslighting comes in. They sense it. Are you okay? Yeah, I'm fine. And. And so in safety, what you see is what you get. This is me. I hope you can love this part of me, this me.

So appreciate that. It's funny. You and I are very similar that way. I call this the two pillars. I talk about the two pillars in my Brave One community that I do with betrayed partners. I talk about it in my book. I don't think a betrayed partner can actually feel safe until she has safety. That's the one pillar. And the truth. We absolutely try to feel safe, but until we have those two things, we don't rest inside. And once we have that once, like you said, the other one person says, okay, I'm being honest. I'm being truthful. This. This is it. Not trying to hold back. There's nothing else I'm trying to, you know, keep from you till death do me part or whatever. And it, you know, take to the grave. It's like, I think that point, they can. They can rest and the partnership can begin to rest, like you said. So.

So I know we're running out of time today, and I really appreciate your time. I love this conversation. You said something about your community. I'd love our listeners to learn a little bit about your community, the Brave One Community. And then I would like to introduce everybody again to the. You're going to be coming to our Human Intimacy Conference and presenting, which I'm sorry, so excited on going to be talking about gaslighting and healing from that process. So if you could share with our listeners the Brave One Community, and then we'll talk a little bit about the conference.

Yeah. I'm honored that you invited me to be a part of your conference. So my Brave One Community is. You know, when my book came out, very shortly thereafter, Covid happened. And so it. Lots of people were reaching out to me to. Can I. You Help me. Can you help me? I got your book. Da da. And it was like lights out. We all remember that, you know, so friend of mine, Karine and myself, locked arms and we built a virtual community for sexually betrayed partners, females. That. And I wish I had a wing for men, because men, y', all, if you're hearing me, I. The impact to you is so far reaching and I feel like you're a group of individuals that are very underserved right now. I have had to, you know, just keep it females because they're so triggered by men because they've been hurt. Right? And so I just. It was too much for me to try to navigate all that within a community. But it's for females who've been sexually betrayed in any way. And I have women in there that are married, separated, married again, engaged, divorced, every. Every place on widowed, you know, I. All of the different women, but they're working through a process of healing from the sexual betrayal. And I am not one of those people. And I hope in our conversation today, those that are listening can get a sense for you. And I, you know, I am not one that just sits around sipping soda, hoping people will get better and heal. I'm not. I am an activist. And from the moment that woman gets in our community, my goal is to help her get stronger. And I have something called a brave one Journey. It's eight steps that I walk her through within a very safe community, accepting. And I do live Q and A's. I hear your stories. We just get up close and personal. Lots there for you. And if the listeners that are with us right now are interested in a month free, I wanted to offer that to you, your podcast listeners, so you can do that. Come in and check it out. It's a membership. It's $37 a month. And you can. If you don't want to be in it anymore, then you just can tell me and I will. You know, we. You. You're not committed to any, any kind of a contract, but it's brave one.com forward slash, intimacy. So it's B, R A V O N E.com forward slash, and then the word intimacy, I, N, T, I, M, A, C, Y. And I'm doing that because that's what your conference is called. So that's how you get it. And we'll give you that information so they can get it from you in the show notes if you're.

Yeah, great. We'll put it. We'll put it in the show notes. So Dr. Sherry Denham Keffer has been with us today. She is going to be presenting at the Human Intimacy Conference where we have over 20 guests with a total of 400 clinical years of experience. I started doing the math with some of, you know, putting it all together. Incredible amounts of experience at this conference. If you are stuck, if you are looking for more support, if you'd like to get a different understanding from different professional professionals who have so much experience. This conference, March 14th and 15th, 2025, we have an opportunity for you to get 50% off registration. And this is for a limited time. So all you have to do is type in 5, 0 off, 50 off and you will get 50% off of the conference fee. And you can come listen to experts who can give you extra guidance. Every session will be recorded so you'll be able to come back if you miss something, if. If you want to review something. I. We encourage you to join us. We are going to, and I say this, I love interacting with others and I love the professional camaraderie and just we've already had some meetings together. These experts are excited to share. And Dr. Kafer, thank you so much for your time today.

So welcome. Looking forward to it.

All right, and now to our listeners. Thank you for taking time to be with us today. Always grateful for your time. I know that your time is precious, so thank you. And we hope that today's show will give you some ideas on how to take your relationship to the next level. Thank you very much.