Guilt After Betrayal: How Remorse Can Lead to Relationship Repair (Episode #128)

Something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh.

Something's around. Welcome to the Human Intimacy Podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Mykolas. Marianne, today's topic— we've talked about shame, we've talked about how shame prevents people from healing. We've talked about how it influences both the betrayed and the betraying spouse, but something that we have not yet talked about is guilt and its appropriateness and importance in the healing process. So Marianne, your initial thoughts.

My initial thoughts, I always go to Brené Brown when I look, when I think about guilt and I go to Brené because she was kind of like my world, my opening door to understanding the difference between guilt and shame. And the way that she describes it, or as I've learned from her, is guilt says, I made a mistake. Shame says, I am a mistake. So shame is an internalization. There's something wrong with me. As guilt is, I did something wrong.

So I want to talk about guilt today in a way that it may be a driving force to the healing in individual and couple healing. And here's why. We understand that shame can shut people down, but what is the power of guilt? And do I feel guilt? If I was to define it, if I'm feeling someone else's pain, that would be the empathy. And if I've created that pain, then if I can feel it and not become overwhelmed by the emotion, then guilt should be then changing a behavior. And guilt also comes— very important to understand— is because I don't want the relationship to be harmed or damaged. So I'm afraid of losing this relationship. So guilt then drives us to turn towards a relationship, whereas shame is internalized and it's more about me than it is about the pain or the hurt that I've created.

Right. And I think in the space we see so often when there's been betrayal, we always see shame. We often see the power of shame. It's often tied into roots of beliefs that often stem from our childhood. And these tie into, if people really knew what I've done, they wouldn't want me. They tie back into feelings of being unlovable. And so that once again, that's a belief about self. So there's the, here's the, I feel bad about what I've done and I feel like I'm a bad person because of it. We actually see the two layers together with that.

In that process, when we have those two layers, an individual who feels guilt, usually, but not always, they want to repair. But when they don't want to repair, shifting into this concept of, I don't feel guilty for what I did if I've hurt you, or I feel the guilt but I don't know how to repair it. Those are some of the things that I'd like to talk about today, because in our conversation we often go to the point of shame. But how do we effectively use guilt in the healing process?

I want to go back to Brené Brown for just a moment. She tells a story about her dog and her son. And she talks about the dog did something. I have a dog and, you know, just 2 days ago, he pulled something off of the counter and he took it out. It was my husband's lunch. And I looked outside and was like, what is that Tupperware doing on the lawn? What is that? And later on, my husband said, Where did my lunch go?

Was that not good for the dog?

He seems to have a stomach made of steel. Oh boy. So in a similar fashion, something happened with Brené's dog. And she said something to the dog. She said like, bad dog. And her son, who, you know, is a product of his environment, his mom, who's a shame researcher, said, no, mom, he's not a bad dog. He's a good dog. He just made a bad decision. That is, I think, maybe the answer to the question you're asking. And I do believe that we are all good people. We are all worthy of love and connection. And we make really bad choices. And we make choices that oftentimes hurt each other, especially when we betray our partners.

So when we understand that, you just, as you just said it, when we've hurt someone, let's say betrayal, or let's say it doesn't even have to be sexual betrayal, let's just say that it's some form of betrayal, a lie, a hidden behavior. I've done something, misplaced something that I knew was important to you and it was my fault and I lost it, whatever it may be. If I feel guilt rather than shame, because guilt is reparative. I want to repair. So generally speaking, so if I feel that, then I recognize this could hurt my relationship. Concept number 1 of guilt: this could hurt the relationship. Empathy: I can see that it hurts you, and I'm now feeling that I hurt you. Empathy, which can easily turn into shame, which we've often talked about. Then the third part of that is the reparative process. So those three in harmony, right? And one can overload the other. Like, I could feel so much guilt turning to shame that emotionally I can't stick with your pain. That's what we see often.

I think what I'm hearing you say, this is like a three-step process.

Three parts.

Three parts.

So Marianne, I've been reading this book called The Power of Guilt, and it's been fascinating to me to read. Because I really want to understand the reparative process. And we've talked so much about shame that I want us to go into this repair. But the author's talking about when we feel guilt, we truly, if we feel the pain, we want to repair because we're afraid of losing a relationship. And that can cause guilt, the fear of losing a relationship. I've done something, or something I did, it was hidden, And I feel the guilt for it.

Can we take that word guilt and is that synonymous with pain? So I recognize that I did something to hurt you. I did something wrong and I feel pain. I feel bad. I see that you're distressed. I see that you didn't like it. And I feel so bad about that.

And in the reparative process, when I've seen couples succeed, Mary, and this is why this is so important to me. Because a lot of betrayed partners say they just don't get it, they don't feel my pain, they don't understand, they don't— they just can't be with me in this pain. I wonder how many betraying partners can express their pain as you just described it, the guilt, the feelings, I've harmed this person, and do it in a way that can be felt, be received, be vulnerable. I wonder how often that's happening. Because I believe it's felt. I just don't know if it's coming across in a productive way.

I'm curious, Dr. Skinner, as we're just exploring and circling just in this space, I'm curious. The first thing my mind goes to is a little boy falling down, getting hurt, something, and being told, you're a big boy. Boys, don't cry. You're fine. Just ignore it. And so I'm wondering if some of the cultural attitudes that we teach our children, or that especially boys and men are taught, if they're taught to not feel that, because I'm hearing you say oftentimes I, my clients may not know how to, and I'm wondering if we've taught them not to. If that's part of what we're talking about here.

Okay, so Marianne, let's just play this game for a second. When's the first time you felt guilt for doing something? For me, I'll tell you if I'll go first. Second grade. I have no idea. We were waiting in a line and all of a sudden something happened and the teacher called me up to the front of this line and said, you shouldn't do whatever it was to a girl. It's like pulled her hair. And I do not recall pulling that girl's hair, but it was in front of everybody. And, and she made an example of me. I apparently pulled this girl's hair. I don't even remember. Even that very day, I didn't remember it. But I remember the emotion of that experience, like I did something bad. I don't think I've ever talked about the story, but here's this experience. I'm in second grade, probably 7, working on 8 years old. And I'm pulled up in front of this whole class and she was upset at me.

You were publicly humiliated for it.

Yeah. In that situation, I mean, the prior year my teacher used a paddle on us if we got in trouble. I never, fortunately I never had that experience, but I had a good friend who did. My point is that's what I was like, you know, you gotta be good, right? Think back to that memory, what it taught me about, you know, don't, don't hurt girls. Don't, right? You're right. Don't, right? And so it was like I was very tentative for a period of time around girls because I just like, I, I don't want to be accused of doing something. I honestly don't remember pulling the girl's hair. First experience.

I'm sitting here drawing a blank. I, I guess I've never felt guilty. I'm not sure.

Man, Marian, you're way better than I am.

No, no, I was a little alien. Well, the one that comes to mind, I'm sure Dr. Skinner, there were bajillion before this, but one that comes to my mind was my friend Brenda. Her family used to collect night crawlers and sell them for fishermen. She got on the bus and she's like, hey, check out this night crawler. And I had it in my hand and she slapped my hand and flipped it back. And, you know, flying night crawlers on the bus, you can imagine the pandemonium. And people were shrieking and she blamed it on the boys in front of us and they got kicked off of the bus. We kind of had a war with a couple of kids and they had to not ride the bus for the entire rest of the year. And I remember their parents standing outside the bus talking to the bus driver and how mad they were. And I remember looking out the window and I felt guilty about that. I had had the nightcrawlers in my hand. My intent was never to kick them off the bus, but I'd been part of that. And so, yeah, I felt really guilty. I felt really bad because it was cold and snowy and their parents were really mad and they got in trouble for causing problems on the bus.

But it wasn't them. Yeah. All right. So now that we both confessed that, or whatever our stories are, the key point to our listeners or viewers, what about you? What have you learned about a behavior that hurts another person or people in some way? What is your response to that? Because it can draw us to reparative. I want to work towards healing, repairing this relationship, or I pull away because in some situations I feel so bad, like I can't repair that. And physiologically, It overwhelms me to be in your presence because it reminds me of my bad, the bad thing that I did. And so you can pull away from a relationship because you don't believe it's repairable, or you're so embarrassed that you don't think that they'll ever forgive you. So core point to our listeners, the question we have to ask is formative years. What did we learn about guilt? How has it influenced us and how we approach relationships and other people? And do we have a template or know how to repair if we've hurt another person? I think that's such an incredible part.

And Dr. Skinner, I didn't hear you talk about you pulling girls' hair, like how that influenced you later on, but I can, I can tell you to this day, Bryce and Kirby, they were the boys that got kicked off the bus. I could tell you their last names, but I won't. I don't think they're—

You wanna tell 'em you're sorry?

Yes, Bryce and Kirby, I am sorry that you got kicked off the bus.

Mm.

Was not ever my intent, but I can tell you that those relationships never repaired, ever. And they lived in my neighborhood. I went to church with them. I went all the way through junior high. I went all the way through high school with them. I saw them. On a pretty frequent basis. And those relationships, it was never addressed. And there was an enmity that just existed. There was an avoidance because there was never conversation and there was hurt feelings.

So in that situation, repair didn't happen. How do we live with the fact that like Did I ever say I'm sorry to that girl? I think about the story and how do you repair? Now, especially, you know, years later, or in our situation, how do couples repair a relationship when harm has occurred in whatever version? And it's such an important question because really the research is now suggesting, and this is an interesting thing, the book I'm listening to talks about this concept I wrote in my book, Rebuild Your Relationship After Sexual Betrayal. The I'm sorry doesn't work by itself, right? What am I sorry for? Am I aware of how my behaviors hurt you? And do I do what I do to make amends because I want you to feel that I care and I want to repair with you? Marianne, to me, guilt then is a driver of I want to be better in this relationship. I want it to heal. And to me, that is, I think, a missing piece. When we talk with the betrayed, they're saying, "I don't feel my partner feels my pain." I think the ability to speak to the guilt and actually how you feel about the pain you've created is an incredibly important part. But then I ask another question, Marian. If I'm the betrayed, do I too feel guilt?

I'm wondering if that empathy that you're talking about, I think that it might be an equalizer. And what I mean by that is Malcolm Gladwell talks about this in one of his books. It might be Outliers. I'm not sure. It might be that one, but he talks about oftentimes in really big lawsuits, like when somebody's died because of medical things and there's a really big lawsuit, he says, oftentimes just someone coming in saying, we really made a mistake. We are so sorry. That's oftentimes what someone's looking for. And when I work with my clients, oftentimes there's a, a need for the other person to feel pain. I just want them to feel this pain. I just want them to get this. And we've talked about it here before. It's almost like I want to exact that pound of flesh. Like, I just want them to feel my pain. And so as I was hearing your comments a moment ago, the thought occurred to me that maybe what we're actually talking about is when the other person has this empathy that shows up through the guilt. This remorse or this pain, I am positing that that might be an equalizer. And I mean equalizer in that it starts to assage the— validating the pain that's being felt on the other side and kind of doesn't wash it out, but it somehow softens it.

And the book I'm reading speaks to that, right? It's this reparative process. And can I feel the pain? And not only feel it, can I express it in a productive way?

Hmm. And so this is when we're feeling felt, it's almost like it neutralizes it. I feel felt and then my nervous system can say, oh, they get me, they feel it. I'm understood. Okay.

And I don't believe that's a one-time thing. It's done multiple times. And when that sequence begins to stack up of one of those experiences and now two and now five and now 10 of those non-defensive responses, because what I'm understanding here is guilt is driving me to repair this relationship. Shame is turning me inward. Then feeling the pain, literally feeling the pain without overwhelming my nervous system means I can stay with you in the pain. And as we work with individuals and couples, that's where I see some of the greatest progress because the betrayed spouse feels heard, feels felt.

And I would also posit that if I am coming towards the betrayed partner and I'm able to feel their pain and be there, it's not just like I'm darting out and feeling it and pulling back in. Like a little crab out and into my shell, but I'm coming out. And because I'm feeling that and I'm being there with you, it's changing how I'm interacting.

Mm-hmm.

I'm seeing you and it's changing. I'm changing also. So I'm not retracting and going back in. I'm staying. And then we're moving forward, both in a new place.

As you said, there are many times when I've heard a betraying spouse say, I don't know what else to do. I've tried to express through— I'm sorry, it's through apologies. I've tried to go through this process with you. I don't know how to do this. I don't know what else to do. I can't tell you how many betrayed partners I have heard say that. And it brings up an interesting question. Are there certain pains that will just be with us as a couple? And then when they come up, maybe it's not that you have to do more. You just need to be consistent with what you're doing. And over time, maybe these episodes that come up, the pain experiences of the betrayal come up and you respond well enough that your partner says, yes, you're still here and you still feel my pain. And you do that consistently over time. It's not that it's gonna completely go away. I don't believe that the pain completely goes away. I think what happens is our awareness of it, when it comes up, we respond better to it.

I recently recorded a podcast that won't come out for a while, but for the Rise podcast, and we were referencing Michelle Mays's book, The Betrayal Bond, where she talks about just her journey of some of her own healing from betrayal. And as she describes it, this is all a journey and working through pain takes time. We often use the analogy of being hit by a car or a bus or a truck. But when you think about broken bones, they take a long time to heal. You have to learn how to re-walk. You've gotta do some physical therapy. It takes a long time. And so as you're saying, we are talking about this principle, and this is a principle that has to be learned. And applied and utilized and recognized and relearned. And oh, here it is again.

So I've got a question. I don't know what to do with yet. So I'm just going to bring it up and to our listeners, maybe you can help us out with this. The betrayed partner, do they feel guilt? And here's my line of thinking here. If I'm naturally a loving and a caring and a kind person, and that's who I naturally am, and I want to give, I want to I just, that's who I am by nature. After betrayal, when I can't be that because I don't wanna be hurt again, and so I'm holding back from who I naturally am, do I feel guilt for not being able to be the person that I've naturally been and would like to be?

For me, that's not a hard question to answer at all. I would say that in almost every single impact letter that my clients have ever written when they've responded to a disclosure that's come up.

Hmm.

I don't know if they've said the words guilt, but they've talked about not being able to be the mom they've wanted to be, not being able to be the wife they've wanted to be, not being able to be fill in the blank in so many places that they wanted to be.

So what do they do with it?

I think that's the grief.

Hmm. Say more.

I think that's the grief of this is what I want. This is what I expected, and this is what I've had to grieve. This is my loss. I felt my guilt that I lost out at my spouse. My guilt is that I have been Angry. And I distinctly remember one of my clients talking about driving down the road with her kids in the back seat, fighting and yelling. And she, with tears running down her face, saying, Marianne, I didn't have the energy. I couldn't be the mom that they needed. And because of the things that were going on with my husband, just didn't have the energy.

Mm-hmm.

That I think is so much guilt. I think so many women, I, I, I can't speak for the men's side. I'm gonna guess it's probably the same, but there's so much mom guilt about, I want to be there. I see how this is impacting my children and I'm living up to my own expectations. That's huge guilt.

So Marianne, I'm looking for a solution. I hear us talking about this and I can, if I'm the betrayed spouse, I'm thinking, you're right. I haven't been able to be the mom I wanted to be. I have been angrier than I've ever been. What do I do? Because I need help to not do those things because I feel guilt for not being myself. Core concepts that we want them to walk away with.

Core concepts. First of all is to give yourself grace and space. You are doing the best that you can with the tools that you, that you have right now. And this is where the self-compassion comes in. And this is where we take a deep breath and we say, I am lovable. And yes, I have some guilt right here. Where do I notice it in my body? It's okay for me to notice and recognize what I'm feeling, what I'm experiencing, and I'm lovable.

Hmm. And for me, if you're a loving person, be that loving person. It may start with a child that's sitting on your lap. And they may have come up to mom or dad and said, hey, what's wrong? And maybe you didn't have the patience. Reparative processes are just being loving. It's good for you. It's good for them. Letting that internal light of love shine within you and out. Now you may hold back from your spouse, but I can also say you can communicate so much more effectively with that love and speaking to your pain. Than you can in anger. And I know that's not easy to hear, but I have found the most effective communicators of betrayal are the ones who speak directly to their pain. Not that anger's not— it's gonna happen. It's more productive when you speak it from the heart of emotion of pain.

If you're a betrayed partner and you're listening to this, or this principle also applies to any of you who may be feeling guilt or any other emotion as well. In the, in the Rise: Hope and Healing After Sexual Betrayal podcast, 2 weeks ago, I had the opportunity to have Dallin Brun, a mindfulness expert, join me for a conversation. And he brought the concept of mindfulness to a whole new level for me. And he used the analogy of a mother, and he talked about the way that a mother goes in the night when a child cries and scoops up a baby or scoops up a child and just holds it and rocks it and is with it. They don't run away. They don't scream at it. So they don't go into fight or flight either way. They just hold it. And it's very natural. It's very instinctive. And it's easy. It's what we do when a baby cries out. We reach out, we pick it up. And he talked about this is what mindfulness is. Mindfulness is holding and comforting. And so finding that part within us, that's motherly love, fatherly, big fatherly arms, motherly arms, and just saying, yeah, there's that pain. That's okay. That's okay. You're lovable. I'm here. And just sitting with it. And so I think that really encompasses when we have that guilt, when we have that, I shouldn't have thrown those worms, those boys shouldn't have gotten kicked off the bus. That's haunted me for however many years, or whatever it is. We all make mistakes as human beings. We learn, we make mistakes and we don't get it right. In our relationships, we say things, we do things that hurt each other. Oftentimes that's not our intent. And oftentimes we don't know how to fix it. And sometimes we can't. And oftentimes we fall short of our expectations and other people's as well. And that is a time where I really think we can slow down and come back and say, let me find that crying baby that's within me. And find those motherly arms and say, that's okay. You're lovable.

That's okay.

Here, here. And just sit with it.

And then what happens is that feeling of guilt of not being able to be ourselves, we have that ultimate self-compassion, Kristin Neff's work on self-compassion, core concepts, healing from guilt. Is it gonna drive us towards repair? Is it not going to? Can we learn how to be with people with empathy? And then what do we do to make repair? Those are concepts I invite all of our listeners to think through. Hopefully we've given you, our listeners, some things that will help you consider how guilt can be productive in your healing journey. Final thoughts, Marianne?

Well, I think just as we're wrapping this up, Dr. Skinner, I think we do need to start with ourselves so that we then can do the relational work. All healing is relational. We've gotta do that relational work with ourselves as we're also doing it in our other relationships as well. So, and you're worth doing this work and thank you for being here. It's been a great conversation.

All right. Thank you, Marianne. And thank you to our listeners. Have a great week and we will be back with you next week. And laugh when you laugh. Something's around you. It's like you're shining, you're a star in the night.