How Do We Create Safety in a Relationship? 10 Keys to Rebuilding Trust and Connection (Episode # 123)

Welcome to the Human Intimacy Podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Michalis, licensed clinical social worker. Marianne, last time we started talking about questions that couples should be asking themselves as they work to either rebuild a relationship or in some cases, maybe even decouple. Today we want to continue the conversation by talking about what I think is probably, for me, it's one of the foundational questions. It's like, how do we know if safety is happening? How do we, how do we determine that we're safe in this moving forward in this coupleship? Your initial thoughts.

Well, Dr. Skinner, I'm glad to be here again. And this is a topic that when we are looking at relationships, it is always about Are you there for me? And is it safe? Those are, I think, the two main questions when we're looking through attachment. Are you safe enough for me to feel like I can open up to you? And I know in our last lively conversation, we were talking about whether or not we step into the vulnerability. We were talking about building that trust, and that's part of that safety. Attachment theory says— Mm-hmm. That we do need to have some courage. And as we step into being vulnerable, when our partners are there and can receive us or they can be there for us, then we create trust and safety or trust and connection. And then that just builds on itself. And the perspective that you were coming from, that also fits here, but is a little bit of a caveat to that. Do you wanna speak to that, Dr. Skinner?

Well, I think I had said in the previous podcast that trust precedes connection.

Mm-hmm.

But when we look at times when safety has been breached in somehow, in some way where I don't know if I'm safe, then yeah, trust is going to precede connection because I'm gonna be more hesitant, cautious, because I don't know if I can turn to you or rely on you, or if you're gonna be there for me. I think it's both directions and we said chicken and egg. I think it fits depending on the nature of the relationship. Are we, are we connecting? Are we rebuilding trust? And in this situation, we have to ask, everybody has to ask the question, how do you know that you're safe in a relationship? If there was a measuring stick, what would it be?

I think that brings us back, Dr. Skinner, to the questions that we want to ask or that we're sharing today for the conversation saying, What are the questions as a couple that we need to be asking ourselves? And that question of how are we creating safety? Are we creating safety for connection or are we having behaviors that are taking away and reducing the safety and the connection? And so as we're talking about that, I wonder what would that mean for you?

I think Marianne, the concept of safety has to almost be understood from a physiological perspective. And why I say that is the body's nervous system is the lead indicator of whether I'm gonna relax in your presence or not. So safety should be considered not just, do I feel safe or do I think I'm safe? It simply is what's happening inside of my body. I remember many years ago, Marianne, I had a colleague and he was talking about parenting. He says, if there's a stranger or somebody who comes up and they're trying to talk with your child and your child draws closer to you, he said, and I think this is important, he said, you don't need to push your child to connect with that person. That child may instinctively be saying, I don't know if I'm safe and I don't want to have to go shake this person's hand or give them a hug or whatever it is. He said, trust your child's instinct and never make them do something that they don't want to do. And I think that that was great advice for me to hear, just in understanding, because normally we want our children to be friendly and they'll go shake their hand or be nice. You may need to talk with them later about what they were experiencing or what they're feeling, but maybe they won't even have a language because they're not even that old. But what he was indicating there is we want to make sure that we don't push people out of their safety zone. And I think that's maybe a starting point for this conversation. Is physiologically, how do you know you're safe?

Dr. Skinner, I go back to one of my earliest camping trips as a child. It was my dad, my sister, and I, and we were sitting outside around a campfire. And my dad told— my sister and her friend were saying, hey, let's— tell us a ghost story. I didn't really know what a ghost story was. I was really young. And my dad told a ghost story. I don't know if it was a ghost story, but it was a scary story. And I don't think we were sleeping in a tent. I think we were just sleeping out in our sleeping bags. That story scared me to death. I did not sleep all night long because I could hear a twig crack. I was hearing things in the environment that just made it so I could not sleep at all. And I'm not a huge fan of camping. 'Cause I know when I'm laying down, like I'm listening for that twig cracking, even though it's been years and years and years.

Mm-hmm.

That, that set some things into motion for me. I have CAMS, but it created an environment for me that felt so unsafe. And I, and I think this is a good example of what happens with betrayal. When we have had an experience where our nervous system gets keyed up, I didn't have the words to say, that was so scary. Like, I didn't even know what had happened. I didn't understand it, but had somebody, had my dad maybe comforted me or said, hey, what's going on, Mary? And I noticed something like there could have been some repair there, but that didn't happen. And so that was something that carried with me kind of, it never really resolved.

Unwittingly, your dad scared you to a place where you didn't feel safe.

Right. And I carried that. And so every experience after that had that flavor.

And Marianne, I think that that's interesting because you talked also about maybe the reparative process. Because had your dad been able to say, Marianne, are you doing okay?

Come sleep over here next to me.

Yeah, right. Come on over here by me. Put your sleeping bag right next to mine. I'll be right here. I'll protect you.

With a story I just made up, no one's coming to chop off your head in the night. Kevin Skinner.

And maybe even a fun part of this is, are you kidding me? I have the Dragon Slayer. I have the Monster Slayer. I have that in my hand, right? And carrying that too as a part of the story to help that younger you feel safe. See, safety then is an awareness that I don't feel safe and I can either share it or someone else picks it up. And says, hmm, this may have been a trigger for you. If we go back to what we're talking about with sexual betrayal, this may have been a trigger for you. Can I help you? Can I forecast that you're not going to feel safe?

And I think this is super important. We've talked about that Zeigarnik effect before where things are left open and they're not resolved. And with that, if there's been betrayal and it hasn't been addressed, then I'm still in that unresolved state. And so even if you're trying to do some things unless we're talking about it and addressing it, making it really, really clear. I think that narration of really being able to say, hey, here's what's going on for me, and our partner responding where that can be the reparative. It doesn't fix everything. Acknowledging it, which allows the system to start to settle. So then we can begin to move forward. If not, we're stuck in that open unresolved state that just heightens everything. And that's that hypervigilance that we often see with the PTSD.

And Marianne, I think it's important to note that when you've had extensive trauma from either childhood stuff or other relationship challenges, and then it's brought into this current relationship, it's not uncommon for individuals to truly not know who is safe to whom. They can trust or put their trust. And so we also have to recognize there may be individuals that are listening to us that may have never ever felt safe with another human being. And having done intensives, I've talked with individuals about that concept of like, if you step back and you analyze who, with whom you felt safe and they say nobody, which has happened, that to me is a very strong indicator that of course they're not gonna know who to turn to because of life's traumas. they haven't had that experience of somebody being able to soothe them in a healthy or productive way. And it really important there because safety, then it becomes even riskier because I don't have the bandwidth to be hurt again. And so I'm scared. And so I hold back. And yet I hold back from what I want. And so it's a very difficult place when you have complex trauma. to knowing who to trust. Even in the research that I gathered, you know, over these last 20 years, I asked that question, have you struggled to trust people even with whom you used to trust? And in many cases, like, I don't know who to trust anymore. And saying that another way, I don't know who is safe anymore.

But I often see individuals and clients in that state and they'll say, Nope, that person hurt, hurt me and they cut 'em off. Can't be in my life anymore. They're not safe. And they end up severing relationships because they haven't learned or seen that reparative process. I think one thing that I'd really like to invite our listeners and viewers to take away from this is maybe at least in this junction of the conversation to stop and say, what are the things that haven't been resolved for me? Like, what are the things that— I haven't talked about that need to be resolved. And I would invite you to write them down and just start noticing what are the key parts? What is it that I need my partner to hear or I need to share? What is it that we need to talk about that at least for me would help me to honor that experience, honor what I was feeling, and to be able to share that with my partner.

And here's the thing, in order for me to get there, I have to have enough awareness, really asking personal question. So if I can't ask that question, then I'm almost approaching relationships without, can I say blindly? Because I don't know what questions to ask myself. I don't know what questions, how do you even determine that? I'm gonna give you my favorite things and then I'd love to hear yours, Marianne. of what people do when I hear them create that safety.

Mm-hmm.

And one of the things that I have found is to identify somebody in your life who has been a nurturer, somebody who has helped you feel safe. It could be a grandparent, it could be an aunt and uncle, it could be just a teacher, it could be somebody who is a coach or somebody who just made you feel like you matter. But When I ask the question, "How did you know that you were safe?" The fascinating thing that comes up is there are memories or moments. It was sitting on a grandma's lap in a rocking chair as the sun was setting. It was those stories where I just felt their warmth for me. They cared. To me, that is— if you really want safety, that's what was needed. is an environment where you can say, that person genuinely loved me.

And so if we take what you're saying there, I hear that and say, how would I apply that? If I'm of the trade partner, how would I apply that to a relationship with my spouse or my partner? Because that safety that you're talking about with that attachment figure, I might have felt that at some point in my relationship with my partner, but that's gone.

So Marianne, could I, could I do it this way? Let's list 10 things that betraying partners do to create safety.

Great.

Ready? Great. I'll do the first one. First of all, they are willing to take ownership and accountability for the behaviors that they've done. Usually that comes through disclosure and doing the kind of work to identify the ways that they acted outside of the relationship agreement. That's number 1.

Your turn. Number 2, I would say, is effort. Your spouse or partner is not going to get it right. They're not going to say the right words. But I guess I would say intent and effort. And so If I'm coming with defensiveness, that looks a lot different than I'm bumbling through this and I'm not doing it right, but I wanna try and figure it out. So let me back up. I'm giving you 3 right here. I'm— intent, effort, and humility. Okay.

All right. So I'm gonna grant you all 3 of those because they're extremely important. The intent is I want to repair. The ultimate capacity to be humble, it means I'm willing to acknowledge my mistakes and own it. The second one, effort. Well, clearly effort. I'm willing to put in effort. I'm willing to do this.

I'm willing to try. I'm willing to not get it right, but I am committed to trying to figure this out. Yeah.

All right. So you got 3, so now I get to add 3, right?

Great.

You talked about defensiveness. I think learning how to work so I'm not defensive, but I'm more capable of hearing what's being said without becoming defensive is a big one for me. That can create safety all by itself, is being open to what my partner's saying. The other part besides defensiveness is the ability to be— and I'm gonna shift words— compassionate. Because as we've talked previously, empathy can be the overwhelming part. I can be a calm place in your presence. And to me, that's actually the crux. That is the heart of what we're talking about. It's that one, is compassion.

I think that's really important.

So that's now number 6. Now let me do number 7 too, real quick.

Okay. I gotta comment on 5, so.

Okay. So you do 5 and then we'll go on.

So you did 5. So I connected with number 5 where you talked about an openness to your partner's perspective. Just branching off of that, Dr. Patrick Carnes talks about provisional perception. I think those might be the words that he uses, but having to recognize and say, I see things this way, but I have to recognize that my perception of things may be provisionally not quite right. And so I have to be open to the perspectives of other people, to— of my counselor, of my spouse, of my groups. I have to be open and set— willing to set aside my perspective because my bad choices are the things that, that got me to this space. So I think that ties into you too. Yeah. To that number 5 that you were talking about.

Yeah. And so defensiveness, compassion, and what should probably have been listed earlier on is I've got to be in recovery. I've gotta be avoiding those behaviors. I've got to create a safety— it's hard to create safety when I'm still in the acting out behavior. So I think if I'm gonna create a safe environment, that it has to be a part of our list of 10 is working towards sobriety and recovery.

So we've got recovery, we've got compassion, which is not defensiveness. We've got the effort, we've got the humility. This might sound a little bit simple, and I think I referenced this recently, but there are skills and tools that have to be learned for communicating. And so if I'm trying to create safety, there are some skills and tools that I'm going to have to learn to utilize to create that safety.

Cool. Yeah. And if I was to add to that, communication is again, a foundation. So these are, these are all, if you, if you were to add to the couple healing and recovery process, to help a person feel safe. We want to put as many of these together in the same bucket as possible and let them mix up together for productive recovery and healing of the coupleship, rebuilding trust. So now we've got 8. Now we go to 9. And for me, when individuals do their own work, they're more likely to show up in a relationship. So in order for me to help you feel safe, I have to do that internal work. And all the things that we've listed could be a part of that work. But I've heard many times betrayed partners say, "I just don't know what they're thinking. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know. I don't know." I think it's not just doing the work, but manifesting it in, "Hey, I learned something." So being proactive in talking about what I'm doing. And I think that that to me is sending a message of, "I'm in this. My heart's in this and these are the things that I'm learning." This is how I'm growing. I think that that's an important part of creating a safe nervous system.

And I would say, I'm gonna add one other one, just kind of crunch it in there together. But this is a, a takeoff of what you're saying. It comes back, I think, again, to vulnerability and courage. I'm ready to have that conversation where I'm gonna show up really exposed and I don't know what's gonna happen. I'm willing to step into that exposed, terrifying state of, if I tell you this, if I share with you what I'm really thinking, what I really want, if I can connect with my emotions and be really honestly vulnerable about where I'm at and let you see everything, that takes courage and that takes vulnerability. And I think that is the space. Mm-hmm. Where it doesn't matter how much you bumble through that. That ties back into that humility and that willingness. As you said, it's all a big grab bag and they're all interlaced and intertwined. But I think those are essential to build safety.

Mm-hmm.

Because if my partner has been hiding secrets, having secrecy, having dishonesty, what I hear over and over and over again is I just wanna know what they're thinking. I just wanna understand what's going on. It's okay if they're not perfect immediately, cuz they won't be. That's not my expectation and I can handle the truth, but I just want to understand. And when they shut me out, that doesn't create safety at all. That tells me that they're not willing, that they're not ready to connect.

That part of it may be a summary of everything, the 10. And I'm gonna call it being attuned, right? If I'm attuned to you, if I've betrayed you, the attuned part is a recognition of your emotions, your fears, your worries, your triggers. And if I'm attuned, it's being able to be responsive to that. And then what happens there is you no longer do you feel alone. You feel like, wait a second, I am trying to hone in on what you may be experiencing. That attunement is a skill. In fact, I often talk with betrayed partners and they feel misattuned by their partner. They like their partner doesn't understand them. While they long for their partner to truly understand them, I really don't think a betrayed partner can fully understand the depth of the pain of the betrayed. But I think what they can do, and I really think this is important, Marianne, I think they can be with that and attuned to it without running away. That goes back to that compassionate part. And then I am more responsive. I do have humility. I have all these things that we've talked about in how we can create a safe nervous system. Now, again, to our listeners, I'm sure we've left some of the things out. You'd say, but you forgot this one, or I'd like to add this one. Well, great. Send us that through an email, info@humanintimacy.com, because we would love to hear what you're learning and your thoughts as you go through our podcast.

If I can add on to that. We also have a YouTube channel and it's youtube.com/@human-intimacy. So feel free to access our videos, access on YouTube and put some comments there as well. We'd love to hear your input and your comments on this experience and what it looks like for you.

Yeah. And, and so Marianne, as we get ready to close up today, I would like to invite those who are listening or watching do me a favor and step— do us a favor and step back and ask yourself the question, how will I know that I am safe with myself and with others? What is it that I am doing, thinking, feeling, so I can actually have something that's more concrete? This goes back to the Intimacy Repair Method. One of my core approaches there is we have to be able to understand and measure what success is. It's not guesswork. It's these things help me feel safe. If you don't know what helps you feel safe, then you can have an experience where you really live day after day without really making progress because you don't know what you need to feel safe.

I think a tool for that would, as you were talking earlier about a grandparent or somebody who felt safe, even taking a moment to close your eyes and to go back to that moment in time and notice. What was I smelling? What was the temperature like? Use your whole entire body to visualize being back in that space again, and then just start scanning your body.

Mm-hmm.

What's going on with me internally? What's my heart rate look like? What does my breathing look like? What is my gut telling me? And so when we can start to recognize, oh, this is how it feels for my body when it feels safe, that at least gives us a guidepost. Oh, now here I am trying to figure out how do I know what safety feels like? Most of the time we'd say, I don't know. I'll let you know. I know it when I know it.

Right.

I know what it looks like, but I might not be able to describe it. But there's a chance that you felt that somewhere at some time in your life. So make that a touchpoint where I can go back and say, that's what it feels like. That's what I'm looking for. Okay. Am I there? Am I close to that? Or am I the opposite of that? And this is using your experience, your life experiences that you've had, learning to listen to your body, because your body is wired to help you feel safe to connect or say, no, I'm totally not safe.

Interestingly enough, this process of safety is a, in a relationship, both partners need to understand that concept of safety and both partners need to work towards creating an environment where it can be present between them. Otherwise we find ourselves one directional. Usually doesn't work in a relationship, meaning one person's trying, the other person isn't. Safety is, is a physiological feeling that two people feel in each other's presence. So your nervous system, my nervous system says, this is safe to approach. And learning how to do that as a couple is a skill. And I think that's why many times couples get stuck because they don't know how to create that safety. Learning how to do that is a skill, and especially after betrayal, couples need to learn how to do that. And usually that's what I do in my office is actually work with couples to develop safety between them. Sometimes really simple things: eye contact, a smile, an acknowledgement, owning the pain that's been created. All of the things that we've talked about today. All right. Thank you, Marianne. Any final thoughts as we close up today?

What we're talking about today, these are skills, these are tools. One of the things Dr. John Gottman says is these are things we have to practice them. We're not gonna get them right immediately. And so taking this question, how are we creating safety? What do we need to do in our relationship to create more safety? You can do it.

Mm-hmm.

It starts with a conversation. It starts with the, the 10 that we talked through. These are tools for you to start utilizing to make your, your relationships better. Thanks for being here.

And thank you very much, Marianne, and thank you to our listeners and those who are watching. May you be blessed this week, and we will continue this conversation next week. Have a good one.