How Do You Know You’re Making Progress After Betrayal? Understanding Safety, Awareness, and Real Change (Episode #115)

Welcome to the Human Intimacy Podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Michalis, licensed clinical social worker. Marianne, we've been talking about the Intimacy Repair Method last week, and today I want to continue that conversation. And it's interesting, as we have continued the podcast, we continue to get more and more listeners. In fact, I just want to shout out to our listeners. Thank you for being with us. And thank you for sharing this with your friends. We invite you to share it with your friends. So today's topic is something that maybe, Marianne, you've been asked this question. How do you know you're making progress? Two steps forward, three steps backward, five steps forward, four steps backwards. How do you know you're making progress? And I just love your initial thoughts on how do couples know that progress is being made in their healing and recovery journey?

So Dr. Skinner, glad to be here. And I wasn't expecting that question. As you know, we chatted before about some other conversation we might have. So I'm thinking that you probably can anticipate what I'm going to say here. So when we're looking at a couple, we're saying, how do I know if we're moving forward? Because this is a real question. I have clients ask me that all the time. And, and in this space, it can be so hard to have hope.

Mm-hmm.

Oh, I'm seeing some progress and then something happens and then it feels like, oh, I don't have any hope. And hope is the thing that I think we need so much to hold onto. But if you're saying, how do we know if we're making progress? I think it always comes down to that gut. How does this feel for me? Does it feel like my partner's engaging? Does it feel like my partner's making effort? Does it feel like we are both changing and open and having new conversations? But it comes back down to how it feels because it doesn't matter how many checkboxes I put on. I'm doing these things. I can do those all day long. I've said over and over here before, it comes down to how does it feel? Because when our partner's getting it right, it feels completely different.

So Marianne, what you just described is a visceral, physical feeling. You use the word gut.

Mm-hmm.

So I physically feel different. So if I could rephrase that gut conversation to my body feels safer in this process.

Yeah.

So I've been working on the Intimacy Repair Method, and the concept that I'm really honing in here is perceived safety. Perceptually, do I feel safe? And that's not a, I feel so. My body is feeling that I am safer than I was before. Not before discovery, but before, as we've been going through this process since discovery, am I starting to physically feel different?

So I have a question for you about this.

Yeah.

I'm with you on this. And I'm also thinking about, and I'm wondering what your experience is. How often do you have like a betrayed partner who 100% is blown out of the water, had no idea? Usually my client, they'll say, oh, now retrospectively I can look back and I can see there were some signs.

Susie.

But sometimes we have these outliers. That means just totally like, because I know we're talking about this feeling of what we feel, this sense. And I think we do have some outliers where we may have some listeners be like, I didn't feel it. I didn't notice it. Like I was so, I don't know.

I call that the shock factor. And so in my research, you know, I had an inkling, I had a feeling there. I knew there was something off. I couldn't put my finger on it. Versus out of the blue, I had no idea this was coming. That's the shock factor that I've been looking at in my newer research is trying to figure out how much of a shock was this experience to me. Interesting question there because my perceived safety at that time was I felt safe. Contrasting that with the other situation where no, I felt something was off. I couldn't put my finger on it. I questioned it. So perceived safety in that situation, this shock factor may actually be creating more challenges in the healing process because I can't determine if I'm safe or not because I thought I was. And now I'm like, no, I've totally missed that. How did I miss it?

Right. So before, if I had a gut sense or if I had a question or something in my mind periodically, at least my brain is maybe working on that and it's open.

Mm-hmm.

There could be something versus no, no, I thought we were completely rock solid. There were no signs. My gut gave me nothing. And so as you're talking about that shock, that makes sense of my world. We talk about that shattering, like the whole shattering of reality. But I think this would be a really good place. Let's define gut because I don't know that we've defined that before. And I know what you and I are referring to the gut might not be exactly what our listeners are hearing.

Yeah. And so the way I look at this is a whole mind and body. Because when I ask people after discovery, where do they feel it in their body? I hear it's in my chest, it's in my throat, it's in my neck, it's in my gut, in my stomach, saying, as some people say, my gut, my stomach. Other people say it's just all over my entire body.

Right. And when I'm using gut, and I think this is a fun part because, and I think it's important because as clinicians we refer to things in different ways, but I'm looking at all of the mirror neurons, the whole, especially the front of our body, our whole core, including our brain. But 90% of what we're picking up in our, in our environment is not coming from the brain part. It's actually coming from all of our senses in our body. And we've got these mirror neurons that are going out and kind of going like, what's going on? What am I sensing here? And feeding that at lightning fast speed up to our amygdala that then says, hey, I'm safe or I'm not safe, but our body is constantly scanning, saying, am I safe? Am I safe? Am I safe? And that's what I'm referring to as the gut.

So neuroception, a phrase used by Stephen Porges, is referring to that process. The neuroception is that your body's constantly detecting, is there a threat or is there not a threat? And if there isn't a threat, then I can socially connect and I can socially bond. If there is a threat, then I'm more likely to be in the autonomic nervous system of fight or flight.

So slow that down just a little bit. If we're talking about the individual who didn't notice or feel anything, was their system not working? Were they not aligned? What?

So he would actually argue that in that situation, the deceptiveness made it so I felt safe, but I wasn't actually safe. That also leads us to the other question. What does safety mean?

Before we go to that question, this connects, um, On The Rise podcast couple of episodes, I had Daryl Brazel, who joined me, and he talked about Dr. Minwalla's work. And Dr. Minwalla talks about that intentionally manipulated reality. And so if I'm living in this intentionally manipulated reality, when you say that deception was so, so good, it's not because my ability to pick up and sense was off, or there's anything defective necessarily about that. It's more that the deception or that intentionally manipulated reality was so good that I didn't pick it up because it was so good.

If we look at it from that angle, then when I discover, going back to what we're looking at, the perceived safety, do I feel safe? How do I know I'm safe? And that then begs that question of, I thought I was safe and then I'm not. But when couples heal, and this is why I've included this in the Intimacy Repair Method process, when couples heal, safety is the foundation. My perceived safety is that I physically, neuroceptively, I feel I can let my guard down.

And, and that ties into January of 2026, we started working. We did a podcast series really looking at intimacy and we looked at all of those levels of that psychological safety, that emotional, that verbal, that intellectual, spiritual, creative, and sexual, but all of those are built on this safety, this building block of safety to have that intimacy. We've gotta have that. That's what I'm hearing you once again. Yeah.

If you're going to reconnect, Marianne, if that's going to happen, then we have to get to the point where the body has this presence of, I feel safe with you. I feel something has shifted inside of us. If I feel safe, I'm more likely to share my emotions. I'm more likely to share my thoughts. I'm more likely to be open and receptive to what you're saying and what you're sharing with me. So from a neuroception perspective, my body is saying it's okay not to put on my fight or flight right now. I'm going to stay present in this conversation. I'm going to stay present in where we're at with each other. So I might not be in a place where I trust you enough yet to do that.

And that's super normal. And that's what I want my clients to— I'll say over and over and over again, listen to your body, listen to your gut. It's going to tell you whether you're safe or not. And, and, and this is such a hard part with repair because there is a step into the darkness. Can I trust you when you've hurt me so much? Can I let that wall down that you're talking about? It's a wall I stick up to.

And Dr. Porges uses another term called faulty neuroception, meaning I— neuroception, I felt safe and I let the guard down, but didn't, I actually wasn't. But sometimes it can go the other way. A person can be safe and I can't recognize it. And that is also a problem that we encounter after discovery is I don't know, I want to believe, but I don't dare believe because I was deceived before. And this is the conflict that most couples find themselves in, Marianne.

I would add to that, this is a concept that I hear so many clinicians struggle with, where they'll say he's doing everything, or the acting out partner, they're doing everything that they can, but that betrayed partner just can't believe it. They just can't get there. They just feel unsafe all of the time. And there's often even some frustration there. What do I do? How do I help them? Because that person, they'll stop. They go stuck in the unsafety.

And stuck in that unsafety because I can't detect safety anymore. And so that's where I've bumped into couples where like, I can't, I really can't tell if I'm safe anymore. And if they're completely honest with themselves, there's parts of them, parts, I'm going to say, that wants to believe their spouse is doing what's right. They see them going through those actions. They see it. And yet their detector is, I don't dare feel it. Because if I let my guard down, every time I've done that in the past, I've been hurt. And especially when we've had long periods of time of betrayal, that's where we find the bigger disconnect, because I don't know how to detect whether you're safe. And so in the Intimacy Repair Method, I'm actually looking at very specific things that couples can detect and say, is this currently happening in our relationship?

So I'm hearing you talk about that radar that we have.

Mm-hmm.

And sometimes our radar can, can be broken. You were talking about that because how do I trust myself? It didn't work in the past. So that's a real thing. That's, that's reality. And I'm hearing you also talk about this and I'm just processing in my mind thinking, and I, I believe this is what the Intimacy Repair Method does, but there has to be space where we slow things back down and we have to learn how to do this. Again, if we're talking about like sexual reintegration or sensate therapy, sensate-focused therapy, we slow down and we say, hey, right now we're just gonna have you like, you know, sit next to each other. We're gonna have you touch. We're just gonna have you sit next to each other and let your bodies like sit in that and learn, can this be safe if we're just— it's a very slow, very progressive with very small steps. How does that apply to the intimacy?

Yeah. So same, say similar concept, but that's way down. The sexual physical stuff is way down the road, right? As we talked about in the intimacy pyramid, right? We're gonna come clear back to a conversation. Just recently I was talking with a couple and I always do this part of, let's just have a conversation that's productive. Let's bring up something that you have not done well in the past. Let's talk about a situation where maybe a question was brought up and defensiveness came in or shame came in and I didn't know how to respond to that. And so we disconnected and we both felt like you're not there for me. You hurt me and you're not present. You're always critical or you're never gonna let go of this. And let's go into one of those dynamics and let's do that conversation right. So instead of the physical part, I'm actually saying, Let's go in and have a conversation that's productive.

So you're saying let's create the psychological intimacy. Let's like sensate focus the psychological intimacy. Let's sensate focus the emotional intimacy. Let's sensate focus the verbal intimacy. Each of these layers of intimacy that we've talked about, how do we establish, and especially as we, I feel like we're just hammering on this today, but we have to have that psychological intimacy to feel safe, and we have to learn how to feel safe with our partner again.

So Marianne, if I was role-playing this with you and I said, okay, so let's just take us to that scenario where maybe for the 10th time this week, you've asked me about a specific event that occurred.

Okay.

And my answer isn't any different. It's the same answer. I, I can't remember all the details, but this is what I remember.

Okay. Give me a second here. 'Cause let's just make this real. Yeah. What would be a, what would be a scenario that I'd ask you about 10 times in a week about my safety? So today at work, I know that there are women there that you fantasized about and that you flirted with. Were you flirting with anybody at work today?

So I'm gonna give you two, two responses here. I don't know why you keep bringing this up. Look, I don't even interact with those people anymore. Every time they're around, I just turn my head and walk the other way. So no, I didn't.

So how do I know? How do I know you're not looking at them? How do I know that you're not?

I just told you. I just, I just gave you the answer. I told you I wasn't. I didn't even see them today, but you keep bringing it up. Now, if I just push pause there, my energy, right? It's discounting.

And I can dig in.

It's offensive. And that's what couples do.

Right.

So if I looked at it from my perspective in this situation, it's like, you're never going to get over this.

Right.

And, but what are you actually seeking there?

Well, in my perspective, based on that answer you gave me, I'd say, are you kidding me? Are you serious? And I would go into deeper, trying to excavate, trying to prove, trying to, because I'm feeling like that defensiveness that you're putting up as a wall, it's, it's It's hiding something.

So in this situation, this conflict is not gonna be resolved because physiologically you're ramped up. I'm feeling attacked or shame, whatever it is, or defensive. And physiologically, I'm not gonna be able to stay in this conversation. I'm not gonna do it well.

And I don't trust you at all in this conversation.

Oh, if you did, I'd be like, what's wrong with you? Of course you don't respond.

No, I don't trust you. And I'm seeking and digging and trying to find my truth to validate what, what's going on inside of me because it doesn't feel true. It doesn't feel like you are being honest with me. So I'm just digging for that.

So take 2, same question.

All right. Kevin, you went to work today. I'm noticing something feels like it's really off. I know there were women there that you fantasize about. I know there were women there that you flirted with. Is that going on? What happened today?

So I'm curious what you, you say something in my behavior or something you're seeing or feeling right now. Help, help me understand what you're experiencing.

I don't know. It just feels off.

It feels off. I can tell you what happened. So when I was at work, I can— from— I did not have a fantasy thought today. That was not where my mind was. I did have a stressful day today that was really off-putting. And here's what I did. I didn't see any of the people that you are concerned about.

You didn't see Sheila?

Not today, I didn't. And in particular, I can tell you what my stress was today. I was interacting with my—

fantasize? Were you looking? Were you looking for opportunities to see Sheila?

I was interacting with my boss today and what— here's, so here's actually what happened. So I was interacting with my boss today and we got into this argument about a client that I've been working with for a while. And it was really stressful in that conversation. And that maybe is what you're picking up right now because I just, it was so hard.

And is that a client that you fantasized about or that you flirted with?

Yeah, it wasn't a client that I've— this is one of the business clients that we've been working on the agreement with. And my boss was so upset at me because I didn't do something right. And I had to own that. And I felt like I'd made a mistake, almost like when I'd hurt you. And I just, I hate letting people down and I've hurt you. And I feel like I hurt my work and my employment today. And I just, that's what I'm coming with today.

So this is shame. You're showing up with shame right now?

Yeah, maybe that's what it is, but I, Yeah, you're probably right. I didn't come home the way I wanted to come home today, so it makes total sense why you're picking that up.

I'm still, I'm still in attack mode. I'm still digging mode.

Yeah. Okay. What, what's, what, what am I missing? What do you, what do you need?

I'm trying to figure out how I respond here because I'm noticing that I'm still like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry that that was hard for you with your boss. I'm not sure what's going on, but I'm I'm hearing you say you've gotten this shame, but I'm still feeling like there's something unresolved. I'm still feeling like there's something going on. That's, that's what my body and my gut's telling me. And I'm having a hard time trusting you because I've heard about problems with your boss before. I still feel like there's something going on.

And I, I, I don't know what that is personally. Uh, all I know is that was my experience today. So I, I do wanna acknowledge that I've hurt you in the past. I can tell you today there was nothing in my, in what occurred today that I would feel bad about personally. And I, in the past, I would've just hidden that. But today I am comfortable with where I'm at.

So what am I picking up? What am I feeling? What am I not? What are you telling me?

All I know is I can acknowledge how I've hurt you. I don't know what you're picking up today, and I'm concerned that you are picking it up and I don't know how to help it. But I really don't know what to say. So is there something else you wanna share with me? Something else you're picking up? I'd love to hear, cuz I wanna be here for you.

I have just got this, this feeling in my gut, like, like in my lower abdomen. It feels like there's a pit here.

Mm-hmm.

And, and it's a feeling that, that I picked up over and over, usually associated with when you walk in the door with, with this energy that you have, and you walked in with that today.

I did. You're absolutely right. I did walk in with that energy today. And as I was driving home today, I was thinking about all of this stuff at work and I really did. I came in discouraged. I came in frustrated with myself. That's an accurate emotion. I was that way today.

And so you're telling me that— I'm trying to figure out in my mind whether that connects in the past, whether you've blended these two, whether they've been blended together. Or whether this is my sexual acting out energy that you walk in the door with, cuz you're telling me right now, this is not, I struggled with sexual sobriety today. You're telling me that this is more, I struggled with my boss, Shane.

I, if I reflect on it today, today was definitely not sexual tension. Not for me. And because I've lied to you in the past, I can also understand why that would be hard to detect. Because I have lied about that. But from the heart where I'm at today, I, I can confidently say that is, that is where I'm at.

Thanks, Kevin. Thanks for sharing that with me. And I don't know if this is where you, where we needed to go or wanted to go with this, but I can recognize that I'm still activated inside and there's, and I need to go do a little bit of work just to reconnect with myself.

Mm-hmm.

Because I hear what you're saying. It feels, it feels like what you're saying is sincere, but I notice that my body's still dysregulated. So I need to come back to this conversation.

Please do. And whatever you experience, I'm open to hearing.

Okay.

All right. So now breaking out of role for a second, right? So if we break— I don't know, we'll have to ask our listeners, but there's a couple core concepts here that I can't— if that is not true, if I'm lying there, then shame on me. And that is something, right? I can't lie about that. But if I do a self-evaluation and say today was not a sexual day, then I need to stand confident in that place because again, the deceptiveness makes it so every question comes into mind. But if my truth is that, then that is my truth.

Can I add on to that?

Mm-hmm.

What my body is feeling is also my truth. And that's okay for both of us to have a different truth and to say, it's okay, we need to take care of ourselves and we can come back to a conversation. But as you're saying, I can't doubt myself that that's my truth. And if my body's telling me this, I also need to regulate my body and, and work with myself as well. And taking that space and time, it's okay if my body doesn't feel it because you came in or your character came in with an energy and I felt that, and that was absolutely valid. And so I don't wanna invalidate that and say, okay, yeah, I believe you, my body feels it.

And that's the, what we're trying to get people to do in the Intimacy Repair Method is to be able to have that kind of a conversation with the full personal awareness and it not be destabilizing to the relationship. To have that kind of a conversation is an authentic conversation, a real conversation where I have to be able to have done my own work or do my own work to see what's going on inside of me.

As much as I always want to like, let's tie this up with a pretty pink bow, I know that's not always our intent because that's not how most relationships usually go. But I think as we wrap that up, for me to say, hey, I need to go take a little bit of time. But you responding and saying, take that time. I want to keep having this conversation. Like you may still having those bids to connect or even saying, let's talk about this, you know, in half an hour, retouching base.

And, and using the model that I'm creating, then I would actually want to follow up, not actually ask you 30 minutes later, an hour later, do you, have you had any more thoughts on that? Is there anything else you've learned that you'd like to share with me? Or do you have any questions for me?

How's your body feeling? How are you?

Taking the lead there is something that I could do as a way to make amends.

Right.

So, so when we understand this process, it's so easy for us to stay disconnected. That first example we give is probably what most of my clients experience repeatedly. Right. But the interruption of that is why I think most couples are getting stuck because they don't know how to interrupt that pattern. And that's what I want to teach people to do.

We're not saying discredit your truths of where you're at for you.

Oh, either partner.

No, we're saying we gotta figure, help you figure out how to maintain and work on your emo— your own emotional regulation. Mm-hmm. And how to connect in these spaces with the vulnerability to have these hard conversations, to recognize here's what's going on with me. Here's—

Yeah.

Here's my experience. Here's my system. And to hear that from our partner and let that be theirs and to be open to supporting them if we can.

Let's go through this one more angle here just for a second.

All right.

So let's give a different twist on this. Let's say that while I was at work, the initial thought was to go to a fantasy thought.

Okay.

So imagine me now saying, you bring that up and after dealing with that stress with my coworker, My initial thought was to escape how I used to escape. So if you asked if I had a fantasy thought, I had a thought and this is what I did about it. And I'm still discouraged that I had the thought, but I think what I actually was able to do today is I recognized it's something I wouldn't have done in the past. Instead of me going there, what I found is I thought, oh, there it is. And I tied it to the stress with my boss. And by the time I got home, I was like, man, Am I making progress?

And that's a very different, that's interesting because I was like, as you were going through that, my defensive response wanting, oh great, this is the pattern in the past. Here it is. Great. Now you recognize it and here's where you're at, but something you did in there softened. So like I felt softening in me as you were. Going through.

What was that?

I think it's the part where you said, this is where I'm connecting this. This is where you were sharing, here's part of what I'm learning about me and what I've experienced. This is where you stepped into some more vulnerability right there.

And there's self-awareness there. There's not this pattern of maybe I've been deceiving myself and maybe I did. So my point then is if I did have that kind of a thought, and I responded effectively to it, then I also get to share that with you. Again, it's a vulnerability. My point then in this whole process is perceived safety actually started with myself.

And as a betrayed partner, I am digging to find that safety. Because when you said, oh, I had that thought, I had that thought about going there. You're like, oh great. How often is that happening for you? Now you're not acting out, but you're still having the thought. That's still a wedge there.

And so if you ask that question, I'm gonna need to reflect on that. How often that usual escape hatch was coming into my life. How much recently? I need to really think about how often it's there, cuz I don't know if I'm even aware that that is there, but I know that happened today.

And as a betrayed partner, I'm filtering through that hearing, not necessarily saying, great, he didn't act out, but this is a pattern and great, he's recognizing the pattern, but doesn't mean that I'm necessarily safe. Like that, that's not creating the safety for me that I need yet.

So we wouldn't expect that. And that's where both partners have to come in and say, I don't expect that that's going to be there. I'm going to continue to have that insight and I'll share as I get that information. So maybe the next day or two I ponder on that and I come back to you and say, you know, I've been thinking about your question there. And again, then I'm taking the lead in this process.

So I wanna go back to that initial question that we started with when you said, how do we know if we're making progress?

Mm-hmm.

If, if I'm this betrayed partner in this, in this place, then I'm saying this is a pattern and I don't feel safe in that moment. That's okay. However, how we know we're making progress is that if I can sit with that, say, Okay, here's how I'm feeling. Here's the information. As I watch the behaviors, as they are consistent, as we build consistency, that's when I'm gonna start saying like, oh, there's progress here. Oh, every time you walk in the door and we have a conversation and you're still maintaining, here's where I'm at. I'm like, oh, okay. I'm seeing that he's making connections. He's having self-awareness. He's able to be vulnerable and share it with me, and he's owning and doing his work and working on his amends. That's how I start to feel and see, like I start to feel safe, and that's how I start to see and feel like we're making progress.

So that's what we're trying to demonstrate today, is this process. Both partners have the opportunity to, in that experience, to understand what's going on and to be able to communicate it. I still am struggling with safety or trust, you say. And instead of becoming a defensive me, I am able to lean into that. The Intimacy Repair Method is actually designed to teach couples to express those truths. And this is just one of the examples that we have to go through, because it's not just the emotional and the fears. There's other forms that can help us build that safety with one another. And that's the part where I really want people to understand. This is just one small example. There's so many other possible examples that we could go through.

Yeah, there are.

Perceived Safety Scale. And it's really called the Perceived Relational Safety Scale, so PRSS. And I actually have it for both partners take it. What we're gonna then do is look at this perception of how I'm experiencing the relationship. So couples can then begin to talk about these types of issues in a productive way. And if you can do it in a productive way, then safety actually gets measurable. We had more conversations that were productive. We had more emotional expression that was productive.

So let me back this out just a little bit. You're saying as part of the IRM, the—

Intimacy Repair Method.

Thank you. The Intimacy Repair Method. As part of that, if one of these assessments is this personal safety, Scale. So I can take this assessment and I can look at it and it's gonna help me understand how safe do I actually feel?

Mm-hmm.

How am I showing up with my safety? So this is personalized for me and what I'm hearing you say is this could be such an incredible tool to sit down with my partner and say, hey, here's some data. Like 10% of the time I'm feeling safe. 90% of the time I'm, I'm not. And for, you know, the other partner, that's really good information to you, for you to understand.

That's right.

For me to understand my partners. This is once again about the relationship. Okay. If I know that my partner is really low on feeling safe, that's gonna be really important to me keeping that in mind of how I'm showing up.

If I want to repair the relationship, if I want to help it heal, that awareness can be a game changer.

So this is a tool that's a game-changing tool.

If we're willing to step back, but again, before all this starts, we have to stabilize first. Like for me, that second example, to come into that conversation, how much awareness do I need to have about myself? So when I come into that conversation, I can hold strong enough, which is another core pillar of this model is I have to be able to differentiate myself enough to say, this was my day. Not being overwhelmed by, yeah, I was stressed and why are you so upset? I just had a stressful day at work.

And there's probably a relational dynamic where I'm on the attack. I'm because I've been hurt and because there's been so much deception and I haven't known my reality.

That's right.

I think we were probably showing up in, you know, like on a scale of 1 to 10, we were pretty mild.

And, and that conversation goes for hours and hours and hours at night, unproductive, wasting time. And we're both burned out. We're both tired. We have to go to work, take care of the kiddos, whatever it is. And that's the battle to the point where we're finding that over 50% of all divorces are coming because people don't know how to resolve these. But if they knew how to resolve them, I don't know what the divorce rate would be, but there are skills that can be learned if we're gonna repair it, learning how to do that. And that's my biggest concern is I don't think couples know how to do it, Maryanne.

If I were boiling all of that down, I think what you're talking about is just awareness. This is awareness of self. If I can learn to be aware of myself, then I can be aware of how I'm showing up and see how that interplay is happening.

Yeah. And that's why your own work has to be there so I can be able to do that in a relationship conversation. So safety starts with self. Then I can present myself to the relationship in a safer way, and I'm more likely to be able to see what's actually going on. So perceptual safety, when I'm stuck in a place where I can't determine safety, Marianne, when I can't determine it, that's a very scary place for everybody because I don't know, I really don't know how to detect safety. And that's part of the repair process.

And I wanna highlight something you said earlier about that, that earlier example about how you had to come in in a space where you had a lot of self-awareness.

Mm-hmm.

And I think that that's probably an under underlying part of this as well, is we need to do individual work so that when I am triggered and say, I gotta, I still gotta honor this feeling in the bottom, this pit in my stomach. I need to have the tools, the supports to be able to do the work to recognize, well, I'm struggling with, with where I'm at right now and I need to figure that out.

That's what I refer to as in the model as the stabilizing process.

Okay.

Because stabilization is a prerequisite for complete safety.

Right.

And personal stabilization. Yeah. All right. Final thoughts for today, Marianne.

This has been a great conversation. I appreciate this conversation because I know that it's needed. I know that it's needed for so many of our, of the individuals that we work with. And this is hard work. And I'm hoping that this role play hasn't been triggering. I know that it can be like, oh, this is how it could be, but this isn't where I'm at. And that might feel hard. And it might feel hard as we've talked today about what progress looks like and saying, oh, maybe I don't feel like that's really happening for me. And so if that's the case, please reach out for support and please give yourself a lot of compassion. And there is a lot of hope. And this work takes courage. If you're on this journey, please acknowledge the courage that it takes for you to show up and be.

And thank you, Marianne. So to our listeners, the Intimacy Repair Method is an online course at humanintimacy.com. We're gonna be going through a 12-week course, working to instruct much like what we just did, role-playing, taking scenarios, taking your scenarios, role-playing it, helping you understand this process. So we invite you to join us, and that's something that Marianne will, and I will be doing as we go through this 12-week course, working through, you'll be able to take the assessment, you'll be able to go through the role plays, ask your questions. And then go through the material step by step to help you work towards a deeper level of intimacy. So we'd invite you to join us and thank you so much for being a part of today's podcast and listening to us. You've been listening to the Human Intimacy Podcast with Dr. Kevin Skinner and Marianne Michels.

Thank you.

Something's around you. It's like you're shining. You're a star in the night.