How Unresolved Shame Prevents Intimacy in Relationships (Episode #9)

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Welcome to the Human intimacy podcast. I'm Dr. Kevin Skinner with my friend and cohort from clear back 20 years ago, Amy Andrus. So good to have you with me today.

Always a pleasure to our listeners.

I want to address something that I think may be the biggest barrier to human intimacy. It's actually shame.

Amy, is this the point I can say amen. Amen. Amen.

You know, for years we've been working together in different capacities and one of the things that I've consistently found that we don't talk enough about is shame and how it influences every aspect of our lives.

Yes, I. For the past 10 years, that is, that has been, you know, I will, I will tell individuals if there is one key, you know, if you, if you're only going to do one, focus on one area of, of therapy. It's, it's identifying your negative belief and your shame, because that will change your life in the way you show up in all of your relationships with your children, with your spouse, with your sisters, with your family, with your friends. Understanding those shame cores and those shame triggers, because we all have them. It's not everyone has them, you know.

And really I want to go through this in a developmental way for a second. You know, a lot of people say we all have shame, but why? Where does it come from? Where does it originate and why? Shame.

Right.

And I want to introduce what I believe is probably the really the overlooked element. So the opposite of shame, I believe, is intimacy. So let's just start with that. So shame, as we would look at it, is always relational, right? It's never not Relational. In other words, if I feel shame, it influences how I see myself and how I interact with other people.

Well, and Dr. Skinner, we enter into shame always relationally. And the only way we can really get out of shame is also relationally.

Right? That's right. So let's go back within the development of. Of where it comes from. And I would suggest probably would have to look back into childhood or other life events or experiences where we felt inadequate, embarrassed, something that we didn't do that we feel was wrong or bad. And then ultimately we can't come back to a state of self where we feel like we are enough or we are loved or we know how to deal with emotions. So, for example, if I'm a child and I'm throwing a temper tantrum, and in my family, we're not allowed to cry or allowed to have emotions, then I'm taught that emotions are not okay. So from a developmental perspective, I'm in essence being taught what you are feeling is inappropriate, wrong, or bad. From a developmental perspective, then I've just shut down that part of me that is emotional, that I can't be that way with other human beings. And so now what happens with those emotions? What do I do with them? They're bad.

And therefore, how does that belief. Emotions are bad, which means that I am bad when I feel emotion, then what experiences continue to happen where we're saying everything is relational, that just keeps getting reinforced and reinforced and reinforced throughout your life. Right, right.

And then as we progress through other experiences, then I'm afraid to show emotion in relationships. But what happens when somebody wants me to be emotional and I'm scared to death because I don't know how to do it, and I've never developed that part of my emotional self.

Right. And, and, and this is where we get to see couples where the one partner or the other partner says, I don't know. Do you not care? Do you? So then they're creating a story based on this other piece of the other partner doesn't even understand what's going on. I don't know. And then it's, I'm damaged. I don't know how to. I don't know how to be in relationship, where really it's this underlying core belief and programming.

Yeah. And so we then feel the shame of, I'm inadequate. I'm not enough. I'm not emotional the way my partner needs me to be emotional.

Something's wrong with me.

And now we hear that internalization. Something is wrong with me. Now, a core belief that I have about all of us is that we are all born with high selfworth and that it is only through life's experiences that we start to question that sense of worth and that well, being what I often refer to as a virus being downloaded into our systems. And that virus is actually often shame that I don't fit. I'm not enough. I don't belong. Do you want to add to that language?

Well, absolutely. And this is where I. I want to invite everyone to go through certain life events of. When did, when did that programming. What, what events? What events did I start to have those beliefs? Whether it's, you know, getting left out by friends growing up. Because I'll tell you, being. Being a woman, a girl, that happens a lot. And with boys, it's a lot of bullying. And what did that tell you? What did you learn about yourself from that? Because it doesn't make sense. So what do you learn? I'm different. I don't belong. I'm unlovable. We all have them because our experiences, we're all going to have experiences growing up that don't make sense. That then we start to have these negative beliefs.

Yeah. And I want to put it in a language that maybe we don't normally use here, but it's actually objectification. And the concept is this. And this isn't my speaking. This is actually something I've read that he says where a communion of kind of. Or a communion kind of connection should be. There is only the experience of being evaluated or of evaluating oneself. So in a communion of connection, I'm feeling comfortable with you and I'm able to be present with you. But in an objectification world, I feel like I'm always being evaluated by other people. And I'm also always evaluating myself. Go ahead.

I haven't heard that, but that makes so much sense. I. One of my favorite things I've been able to do, the work I've been able to do is run a lot of shame resilience groups with men and with women and be able to go through, you know, common, common categories of shame, which, you know, unfortunately it's still for women, a lot of body image and beauty and aging and motherhood is at the very top of the list. But parenting and, you know, whether their partner has an addiction, money, going through these categories with men and women, because our experiences, they all, we do develop these negative beliefs or this programming as you're talking about the drives, disconnection relationally all the way around and then coming.

Back full circle, it's I'm always being evaluated by other people or by myself, which is what they're referring to as objectification. I'm objectifying rather than actually being able to be present in a relationship and feel connected. Now I'm questioning how everybody is seeing me.

And I'm just curious what social media has done the past how many years, how much has that just ignited? So much more object, objective objectification of others, how others are perceiving me and how I'm being perceived by others. That's.

And I think that's why we have heightened anxiety and why we have heightened stress. When we use social media to that extreme, then we feel like we're being judged. I didn't get enough likes. I didn't get enough of this. I didn't get invited to that party. I wasn't. I don't belong. I don't fit.

Or as moms, oh, they're Easter. I, I didn't put on. I didn't, I didn't do the Easter that my friend did. I didn't comparison.

Yeah. And so now this shame based belief. I'm not like other people. I, I guess I'm different now. And now what we begin to see in that situation is a pulling away from others.

Right? Right.

If I don't belong, if I don't fit.

Right.

And so the other part of shame that we often don't look at, and that is how I begin to see other people. When I have elevated shame, I begin to see other people through the same lens that I'm seeing myself. They don't like me, they wouldn't like me. I don't fit. Now try to be married, try to be that parent, try to connect when that's your operating system and you're almost always going to feel inadequate.

Wow. And how do you have intimacy and close connection when that is your lens?

Well, and that's the sad thing about it is, is you don't believe that you're worthy of it. You don't believe that you're good enough for it. So chronic shame, complex shame, debilitating shame. And ultimately what happens, and I really do believe this is the crux of why we're struggling so much in intimacy today, is that we're carrying these unresolved shame that really prevents us from creating the intimacy in the relationships that we long for.

I 100% agree.

And let's go to another degree because once I feel shame and I've downloaded that shame virus into my system, then how do I interact with other people? I mean, how do I cope myself with that shame. What do I do with it?

Well, in this language, Dr. Skinner, when I have been able to really, this has been one of the most, one of the most meaningful work that I have been able to engage in in these groups. Individuals don't even know, number one, what, what shame really is until we start to put like, really describe it. And then they'll say, well, I don't really have shame. And then we start going through the work and it's, wow, this experience did impact me to have a negative belief about myself. They, we just, we just don't know until we really dig down and are curious and do this work individually to really even understand. Like we can talk about this, but it's really dialing in and being curious and, and being able to identify what, what are my shame triggers, my categories and how does that impact the way I show up? Does that, Do I retreat? Do I, do I discharge? Do I, do I blame? Do I attack? What do I do? Do I just disappear?

Right. And now you're talking about the confusion of how to be with others because I don't even know how to be with myself.

Right.

And often what I have found is that when we have profound or elevated shame, we have to cope. And the question is, how are you coping? Not if you're coping. The question is, how are you coping? Is it substances? Is it sexually related behavior? Seeking some kind of validation that I'm enough?

Is it shopping? Is it social media? Is it, Is it work? Yeah. Is it work? It's what, what do I do to try to just lock up this painful part that I don't have to deal with because it's too overwhelming and I don't understand it.

So I can try to, I can try to numb it out, substances, whatever it may be, sexually, whatever it may be, or I can try to work it out to prove that I'm enough. Prove to others. So I kind of go overboard and I become overly productive. I'm a workaholic, whatever it is, trying to prove that I'm just, I'm enough.

Right?

And then in relationships we can even take it a step further. I could be over sensitive. I'm, I'm aware of everybody's needs. I'm aware of everybody's needs. And I'm totally ignoring my own self because I'm trying to get the validation from others.

Right? Right. And that one's tricky because, you know, that one I can identify with in my own life because that one is, you know, you can pat yourself on the Back with, I serve so many people here, but I'm really hiding from myself. And this is another way that kind of hustling for worthiness, hustling for love. And. But it's. So this, this work is so, so critical for everyone to be able to really dial into where this negative programming started.

Yeah. And I want to add one other part here. When we are in the most profound shame and we've been hiding behaviors, and this is something that. Another kind of a topic that we need to look at here. Often when we're ashamed of our behavior, we typically see hiding it. We don't want others to see us. And when we don't want others to see us, then when we are exposed in whatever way, we get caught doing something sexually or we get caught with our substance. And we've been hiding this behavior. It's been our secret because it's been our coping mechanism. And now we've been revealed and we've been outed, and now we're exposed. What we often find is this sense of rage because we're trying to take the blame away. Oh, I wouldn't have done this if you would have. I wouldn't be this way if I hadn't experienced this. And so we begin to shift the blame elsewhere because we don't want to be exposed. And when we're exposed, we feel angry and we feel like, I got to put the energy elsewhere.

Yes. I mean, shame, when we look at. It's so crippling. So it's terrifying. It's fear and then it's blame and driving more of that disconnection. It's, you know, like with motherhood, you. You have this, you know, you, everybody. I feel like that's the women I work with. It's okay. I can talk about these other categories of shame. I can't even face the fact that I'm not the mother I want to be. I can't even face that. And so maybe, maybe you, you. You yell at your kids and someone witnesses that, and it's just hide and die. I'm the worst mom. But then the reaction can be, you know, to spouse. Do you know what? I just. I have to do this all by myself. I can't. You work so. And you discharge that onto someone else, that blame.

So, yeah, and what happens over time is we internalize this. I'm a bad mom. I'm a bad dad. I'm. I'm not a good parent. I'm not a good provider. I'm not. I'm not. And again, you Listen to the language. I'm not. And then you finish that and you begin to realize that I've become this, my own worst enemy because I, the way I speak to myself is so critical.

Well, and that's the difference. I am, I am not a good mother. It's that identification of self rather than behavior. I yelled at my kids, I, I acted out. It's. I'm bad. It's, it's a label on self, not on a behavior.

Yeah, yeah. And, and as we begin to develop that belief, that core belief, that virus as we refer to it, throughout the healing process, it requires us to actually be exposed to expose that negative belief, that shame based belief. And that's a really hard but transformative component of the healing process. When we see people in the healing process of overcoming an addiction, of learning how to be better in relationships, almost always we see a transformation of them being seen.

Isn't it? Isn't. That's the beauty of this is it has such a ripple effect into all of their relationships. When they can understand their own negative belief and be able to work through that, then it has a ripple effect into all of their relationships. And that's the other side that we get to hear about. That's the, it's so beautiful, that ripple effect in relationally.

Yeah. And I want to talk a little bit about this because so many times individuals who have high or elevated shame, they don't believe others will accept them. They don't believe that they are enough because they've inherited and accepted that core belief. But when they start allowing, and I say allowing intentionally themselves to be seen, they can become more relational, more connected, and they find a deeper level of joy in their relationships.

And I don't, I don't know, my, my own experience, it's been really beautiful to do this work with groups like women and men, because when we see a couple come in and one of them is just in deep shame, their partner is the number one person that they, they want, you know, they're so afraid of taking that mask off. It can be, I don't know about what your thoughts are. It can be easier to let that mask down and be able to talk about these things through, you know, the difficulty with the therapist or with a group of people that the stakes aren't so high, where it's okay, my partner, that's the number one person I don't want to let down. And that can be the scariest. I don't know what your thoughts are about that.

Well, for sure, because again, the person who could hurt me the most or that I feel the greatest fear in revealing whatever it is that I've been experiencing too. They may. It may overwhelm them and they may not want to be with me, but the power of a group is when I can be with others who share similar challenges, who. They have their own fears. And now as I begin to realize that they can accept me and they're not rejecting me now I don't feel like I'm so isolated and alone because as we started. Shame is always relational. And when I have high shame, I don't want others to see me, which prevents intimacy. I mean, intimacy into me. See, that's the opposite of shame. I'm over here hiding myself because I don't want to be seen. I don't want to be discovered.

And what's crazy what, What I experience again and again. And you. It's the isolation of shame. The lie of it is you really do have that belief. I'm the only one who feels this way. And so as you see others, like, oh, you have, you know, motherhood, body image, and you hear other people share their. Their shame triggers and, you know, okay, this isn't just me. It's, you know, then you can kind of let that mask off more, and then that creates that connection and that intimacy and, and, yeah, and what makes.

It even more enjoyable as a therapist to observe is when they start creating a connection and they start saying and sharing things that they maybe have never shared before, and they go into those places that they've thought they would go to their grave with, and now they're talking about it, and others are saying, oh, me too. Yep, me too.

Yes, it's so. It's. Again, I say, how do we get to do this? It's. It is so sacred and it is so beautiful, and it is so critical, especially this piece that every single person can. Can get to this programming. I, I've seen a lot of moms go through the shame course and then the conversations they have with their children, with experiences because they have awareness of their. Their key life experiences that led them. And so then they start seeing the lens of their children so much earlier and having a language to be able to identify with their children. And how cool if we can start teaching this language early where you, you learn this as a child, adolescent, you learn how to be able to grapple with this painful emotion.

Yeah. And what you're now describing is probably the. What we as a society have failed to do. And that is to say that the emotional side of us, the fear, the anxiousness, even these core emotions that we're talking about, I don't know how to express them. But now we're in an environment where it's okay to say, I don't know how to do this. I'm afraid, I'm scared. And we're emotionally allowing ourselves to have these kind of connections because it's not that we're inhibiting it, we're actually encouraging it. And so I'm no longer being taught that my emotions are bad. I'm being taught that I can explore them and understand them. And my, I'm not creating an environment where, where I'm shutting people down. I'm actually creating an environment where we can be open together with this emotional journey. And it's powerful, it's transformative. And if we're going to strengthen society, this is what we need to do. We need to actually address the shame that is the barrier to deep human connection. Because I'm only going to allow others into myself, into see me if I'm comfortable with myself.

Right. If you, if, if I cannot, you know, these parts of me that I bury and like you said, just hide or die, I am never looking at these. If I cannot see myself and look at these, I'm certainly not going to be able to have deep, deep meaningful connections and vulnerability if I'm, if I'm unable to do see myself, I'm not going to allow another to see me.

Yeah. And I think one of the challenges of our society is that we've got to the point where we put out what we want others to see us as.

Right.

And instead of really saying, I am having a hard day, I, I, I'm really struggling with this part of my life. And there's no shame in that.

It's, it's showing the messy and the beautiful because we all have messy and we all have beautiful.

And that authenticity allows us to have connection.

Yeah.

I want to address one other thing. I think that we often as parents, I'm going to call it parental shame, we can call it mother shame, dad shame, but this concept of parental shame. So I want, I want to put it in the context of if I have grown up in an environment where I was basically told that I wasn't either enough or that I had to keep things in the low down and keep secretive, and I, as a parent, I'm being triggered by my child's rejection. And I'm not saying child's rejection because if I'm not feeling comfortable in my own skin, My child could easily do something that makes me feel inadequate. It's that temper tantrum in the grocery store. It's. It's, again, a thousand different things. My child didn't f. They didn't do well on a test. And all of a sudden, I'm internalizing this idea that I must not be a good parent.

Right.

My child's not getting the grades. My child didn't get it on the team. My child's throwing this temper tantrum. What does that say about me as a parent? Parental shame actually is generationally then passed down. Because when I've got my shame, what's the message I'm sending to my child? That temper tantrum. How do I send the message when they didn't get the grade that. That. That I wanted them to get? And all of a sudden, we've internalized our beliefs, then we've externalized them, put them onto our children, and our shame then is being transmitted to the next generation and to the next generation. How do we reverse that? That's what I want to talk about.

Oh, that's so big. Because really, you were talking earlier about, you know, the family dynamic that we. We don't talk about feelings, and then we bring that into our relationships and generally generationally moving forward. And with parenting, how if. I mean, what is the fear of the temper tantrum in public? The fear is, I. I'm a bad mom. I don't. I can't control this. Then what's the message to the child? Don't have emotions, because you're gonna really. I'm gonna be angry and frustrated, and I don't know. So then we are just transmitting that.

And shutting it down. And again, I don't know. We've all had children who've done something in public. They're like, oh, right, right. And yet, I'll never forget, this was one of the greatest moments of my parenting life. We. We had been attending a church service, and it was one of those miserable days when I think I probably was out in the hall more than I was in with the rest of the congregation because my children had different needs. I got to go bathroom. I need a drink. They hit their head on the. On the pew, and. And they were crying and had to take them out. And I never forget this experience. This is. This is how we can actually change the process. I was thinking, why in the world do I even come to this religious service today? And an elderly lady, probably in her mid-80s, she came up afterwards, and she did one of the most kind things you could ever imagine. She put her hand on my shoulder and she said, brother Skinner, we've all been there. Thank you so much for being with us today. And Sister Wood, her name just made everything possible because she sent a message of maybe it was my shame, of my children, you know, they were acting out and I must be a bad dad. And. And she just did something that. We all need a validation.

It's not just you.

We've all been there.

We've all been there, you know, and.

It'S those types of interactions that give us hope in society. And we. We need to be the instigators of such comments. We need to be the one that goes up to somebody and says, how can I help? We need to be the one. Maybe in the grocery store, you're doing a good job. I know it's hard. I've been there with my children. Intimate moments, intimate interactions where somebody says, you're doing just fine.

Those are those little miracle moments when somebody can show up for you in life in those moments. And then it's. How can we learn to actually be that person with others? And from my own experience working with clients, it's not so much. Everyone, you know, in the congregation, out in the waiting room, they just don't know. They feel uncomfortable with. It's not. They're thinking, you're a bad dad. They don't know what to do with the situation because they feel uncomfortable. They. With their own emotions. And they don't know how then to move forward and say, we've all been there, and it's not a matter of. They're all. Everyone's thinking that people just don't know how to move toward that.

And that's the difference. When we are comfortable with ourselves, we then can give. And that's why we all need to address our internal voices that say, I'm not enough. There's something wrong with me. I'm not a good mom. I'm not a good dad. I. I'm. I'm a parental failure to this place of I'm trying my best. I can still learn to be better. And we develop what would be referred to as a growth mindset where we may not know the answers, but we're committed to learning. And if there's one thing I would really like our listeners to take away is intimacy is a creation. It's learned. Shame prohibits growth. It is a fixed mindset. I am not enough. I am a failure. I am not the right parent. I'm bad.

Yep. On self rather than behavior. Whereas intimacy Empathy, that. That is a learned skill set, which means that's the part everybody can learn. But it takes. I mean, it takes a lot of work. We don't just know how to. To have empathy and to have that intimacy.

Right. And so to our listeners, our invitation today is to recognize your internal voices, the ones that may be holding you back from a deeper connection, from being seen. If you've got actions or behaviors in your life that you're embarrassed or ashamed about. Okay, welcome to the club.

Right.

But the next question is, is what can I do to heal so I can be more present, more intimate? Because perhaps, as we talked about in a previous podcast, our greatest barrier is actually that internalized voice that says I'm not enough. In contrast with recognizing I can be that person who says, you're doing a good job.

Yep. So, yes, just my final thought, I would just invite you to. To start being curious in with yourself. What are the areas that I feel like I need to hide or die? Is. Is it that I feel like I need to bury? Is that appearance and body image and mothering and money? And if people like social media, how much time I'm spending there? Or just to start be curious about the ways that the. The different categories that you want just to hide and have nobody see, Just start paying attention to that.

Yeah. And then when you do recognize that you don't have to do it alone.

Right.

When you find that you're stuck in a place, talk with somebody. Because there's something that we've discovered about opening up that allows us to shift out of that secretive, hidden self, I'm going to say literally self deceptive, because we're all born with high self worth. It's only life experiences that make us question that worth.

Well, and like we said, we enter into shame relationally, and we get out of shame relationally when we. If we are just at home and we're getting curious about these areas, you want to hide or die. It's like, okay, well, what do I do with this? If I'm talking through it? That's that relational piece. To get out of it, you have to be able to talk through it.

Absolutely, absolutely. And when we do that, we literally become freed from that albatross of those negative beliefs, the negative self perceptions that have been carrying us and in many instances began in such an early childhood that we didn't even recognize it. The virus was already downloaded. We didn't feel like we were enough. And as we work to overcome that, we can actually treat and overcome the chronic anxiety that has been with us.

Right.

All right, Amy, any final thoughts for our listeners today?

I. First, if you're able to listen all the way through this. This episode, well done. Because even talking, like, starting to identify and talk about shame can be. It. It can. It can be really overwhelming. And so, I don't know, it can be heavy. I'm. I'm glad that you're listening, and I would love to be able to help in any way peel back those, you know, those negative programs programming that. Dr. Skinner, you say that virus that just isn't real and doesn't need to be there.

Yeah. And we often say when we do therapy or we do our intensives, we want to be the antivirus software. Now, as a reminder, if you have questions and you would like Amy and I to address in this podcast, you can ask your questions atquestionshumanimacy.com. we would love to answer your questions, so feel free to enter in any questions that you may have. And Amy, final thought.

Just happy to be here. Can that be a final thought?

Yes. It's. It's so good to have you with me. All right. To our listeners, want to say thank you for your time. Remember, human intimacy is a creation. Love is a creation. Every day, we have the opportunity to be intimate human beings. Our invitation to you is to be that, because our society, we need it. We need more human intimacy. Thank you for being with us today. We look forward to seeing you again in the next podcast.