https://www.listennotes.com/e/360330d53eb349ca9fdc844b2ce4cc30

There's something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh.

Welcome to the Human Intimacy Podcast, Dr. Kevin Skinner with Michelle Mays. Michelle is the author of the Betrayal Bind: How to Heal When the Person youn Love the Most has hurt you the worst. Michelle is also a licensed professional counselor. She is an incredible author. She lives outside of DC. She is an incredible therapist focusing on attachment focused, has what it's called the attachment focused partner betrayal model that she has trademarked. And we're so excited. I'm so excited to have you with us today, Michelle.

Thank you. I'm glad to be here.

So, Michelle, just a little bit above your background. You've got this great book. In fact, we are using your book in one of my groups that we're using. It's a phenomenal book. The people who are listening or reading it love it. We're having great conversations about it. Tell us a little bit about yourself and then about your book.

Gosh, a little bit about me. I've been in the field for over 20 years, and I entered the counseling arena in my early 30s, having done like, I was a Polysci undergrad. and came into the field, specialized in sex addiction and working with betrayal and relationships, had my own experience of being married to somebody who is sexually addicted, came out of that, came into the counseling field kind of as I was coming out of that, and started working in this arena. And I was the only CSAT in my county for a long time. So because of that, I got to work with the whole system. and I got to really understand all parts of the system. And I love that and thinking about all the different parts of a relationship. So I did that for a long, long time. And then out of that came the book and developed thinking around how to really help betrayed partners think about what is happening for them in a different way and to think about it from an attachment through an attachment-based lens.

And that is one of the things that has stood out to those in our group is understanding this attachment concept. So let's go into that for a second because I think that's a big part of what we're gonna be talking about today and maybe a bigger perspective rather than just with betrayal, but just attachment as a whole. And what I would like to maybe have something from your book that I find absolutely just beautiful. Your personal description of what you went through It resonates so well with the people that I'm interacting with. They absolutely, it makes so much sense the way she describes it. Yes, yes, and yes is how they often describe certain chapters that we're going through.

Yeah, I love that. I always feel like, okay, yes, I got it. Because I hear that too. I feel like you're inside my head, that kind of thing. And I think it's two things. I think it's having been through my own story. of course. And then it's also just listening to hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of partners and really hearing them and trying to understand the deeper patterns underneath what they're dealing with.

And so, Michelle, you've created an attachment model. And I think what really the first time I think you and I met as you were talking about this, it resonated with me so much because I too believe that our goal should be human attachment, human intimacy, and it does not occur by chance. It is something that we have to understand, we have to work on, and I think that we think we can be good at relationships, but more often than not, I am not sure we have the understanding of our barriers to intimacy.

-Yeah, I know. I really agree with that. And I also think that just in this arena of dealing with betrayal, I think we do understand that betrayal creates a trauma. and creates a trauma response. I think most people understand that. But I think where we often forget that betrayal is relational and those trauma responses impact our attachment system. And then the way we cope shows up in how we relate and what we do relationally in our relationship. So if you do not understand that, then you miss a huge piece of the puzzle of what is happening for everybody that is impacted by betrayal.

And one of the common outcomes of betrayal, that attachment is I no longer feel safe. I don't know who to trust. I have a lot of fear of how others are going to see me. And I think that is now maybe even culturally, I think we're living in that. And I think that's really what we wanted to talk about today. So I would love you to introduce kind of your thoughts on today's topic about just attachment in general as a culture.

Okay, so we're gonna take a hard, a bit of a left, left turn from dealing with just betrayal and thinking about it culturally. So I think, you know, we're in like a really interesting moment culturally. I think, politically, the politics are impacting everybody pretty significantly at this point in our culture. And what I see happening for people is that because what's going on politically is high stakes, I think people feel like the stakes are high for how we're going to live together as a group in our country. And because it's high stakes, I think it is making people feel very scared. And people on both sides of the spectrum, people on both sides of the political aisle, I think this is about whether you're on the right or whether you're on the left or where you are. I think this is a human experience right now. of fear because the stakes are high, and then how that fear is affecting our attachment systems and our ability to then stay connected to other people and how we're interacting with other people in this moment.

And I think it's so important, and I really, when you mentioned this topic, I'm like, boy, this is a fantastic topic because we are living in a culture that feels like it's in either or. If we don't agree, say on politics, I'm not sure we can be friends. I'm not sure we can be. I've even heard of people ending marriages because they have differences of opinions on political preferences. And I love the way one of the candidates said it during this recent cycle. He said, if I lose my friends because of this, that's a huge mistake.

Yes, exactly. If I lose my friends because of this, I've forgotten who they are.

I am not seeing them.

Yeah, I'm not seeing the whole person. I have a really, really good friend who has impacted my life positively for 15 years, speaks wisdom into my life regularly. Her and I completely disagree politically. Utterly disagree. And I just have to be like, that is just off to the side. Because I know who she is and I know her heart. And I know that she has a ton of wisdom to offer and does and is funny and is, you know, I care about her, I love her. And I think we lose some of that often when the disagreement enters the picture. We forget about the rest of the person.

Which is really a typical fight or flight. I mean, we get into these fight modes and we stop seeing this other human being. We stop seeing them. Like you said, yes, we have our differences, but I still love her. I see her. Mm-. And I think that's where we start that attachment or loss when we stop seeing this human being that we love.

Yeah. And I think it's because we're scared, you know, like one of the biggest human needs that we have, I think it is the biggest human need that we have is to belong to the group. Like a feeling of belonging to the group. And because of that, our attachment systems are like very, delicately wired, finely tuned systems, noticing if difference comes into the group. Because when difference comes into the group, it could threaten the group. It could threaten our survival. It could threaten us, right? So we're very attuned to difference of opinion or difference in some way coming in, and our attachment systems will respond to that. with a fear response often as we check out and try to figure out, is this threatening for me or is this okay? Is this a difference that I can accommodate? Yeah.

And so interesting there because fear drives a lot of our behaviors, a lot of what we think about, a lot of our emotions. I mean, fear in and of itself, we live in a state of fear. Really, it's hard for us to connect and bond that the alternative, when I'm living in fear, I'm really not thinking about attachment and closeness. Maybe I If I've got a big group, but a whole group can have fear.

A whole group can have fear. I think it's interesting, and honestly, I'm kind of thinking out loud here on this, but if I think about how our attachment systems are wired, they are wired so that when we feel stress, we reach out for a connection. So they're wired so that they're actually part of how we cope with the fear. and we cope with the fear by reaching for connection, but we also at times cope with the fear by cutting off the very connection that we need to help ourselves.

And we see that with the betrayed partners that we work with, right? I mean, you just described a scenario. I'm like, how many times have I seen people almost like it's a hot and a cold, I need you to comfort me. I can't stand you. I need you to love me. I hate you.

Right?

And so we see these dynamics in a marital relationship, but I think we're seeing that on a cultural level now in a very big way.

I do, too. It's really funny because I almost look around and feel like we're doing culturally what everybody does in their marriages and romantic partnerships and families. We're doing the same protest behaviors of, this feels unsafe to me, so now fight, flight, freeze. you know, we're doing all of that. It's just writ large right now. And it's happening across the culture.

And so initially, what we would say in a situation like that is obviously we need to do some introspection. What's it doing to me? How am I experiencing these events? And I think that kind of insight is where I usually start. Where do you start?

I start even before that with like Just slow it down. Because our threat system and attachment systems move so fast. I mean, they are just like whoosh through us. It's so fast. And I think the very first thing you have to do is pause if you can, so that you can slow down and breathe and try to get your regulation back a little bit before you decide how to proceed.

You know, I like that a lot because I, in my book, rebuild your relationship after sexual betrayal, I have a picture of deer. I live in an area where there's a lot of deer, and I have this, this image, and it's two deer that are staring at me and three that are still eating. And so it's like two are saying, safe, not safe. And the other three are like, I'm just hungry having some breakfast here.

Fine. Yeah.

Right. And yet the two of them, if they startled, the others would probably be in a heartbeat, they would be running. then they would be getting away. But that concept in our field, we call it orienting. They're trying to orient threat, safe, not safe, should I run, should I fight? And I think that's what you're describing there is this, I'm pausing to orient to this scenario or to this situation.

Yes, and the other thing I love about that image is that idea of like, if the two startle, the rest will go too. and just the impact we have on one another. And so if you can pause and try to orient and try to figure out, let me just how to bring it down in my body a little bit, it actually helps everybody around you because we do feed off one another. The fear feeds fear, you know?

And then we start asking questions like, what is it that I'm experiencing?

Mm-.

And that gets us into a deeper level of personal awareness and personal insight. And I have found that I am a much better therapist when my clients have more personal insight.

Yes, agree. And especially insight to their emotional reality.

Mm.

More than your thinking reality even.

So say a little bit more about that, 'cause that's really important distinction there, because I can stop with my thoughts, but you're even taking it a level deeper. attuning to the emotions.

Yeah, because what I think is happening, the little bit that I look on social media, because I try not to.

Look, that's probably a blessing and why you're probably mentally healthy.

I try not to go on there, but the little bit that I look, I think it's a lot of people's thoughts kind of being unleashed really quickly without a lot of filter and It's one of those things where you think, okay, if the person had the ability to go underneath the thought and figure out, oh, when I read this, when I read this other comment online, it scared me.

Well, interesting language, right? It scared me.

It scared me. It's different than what I believe. It makes me feel scared because, oh no, what would that mean? if that's how things were. But I didn't even know I was scared, right? If we're not in awareness, we don't even know we're scared. We just think, oh, that's dumb. Let me lash back. I'm not even aware that what's actually happening is we're afraid.

And so that personal awareness, I feel fear. I'm scared. I'm afraid. I'm worried. In contrast, you describe the other one. Well, that's a stupid remark. That's just dumb, right? And then we get into our own fight response and we go banter back and forth. and what does it produce at the end of the day? Disconnection. You said it exactly right. It creates disconnection.

Yeah, disconnection from one another. We feel more alone and more afraid after that kind of interaction. It actually builds our fear higher.

And that feels to me very accurate of most of our society today. We're living in fear in our primary relationships. We're living in as a culture and maybe even worldwide, we don't trust other countries. I had an interesting experience. A few months ago, my wife and I went with my in-laws down to Mexico. We were getting off the ship and I heard this couple behind me speaking Chinese. And I speak Mandarin. So I started talking with them. Literally it was 30 minutes of delight for me personally because we were just bantering back and forth, Chinese talking back and forth. So much fun, so much fun. And when we were just getting ready to end, he said, I know our governments might not be friends, but can we be friends? And it was just one of those-.

That'S a beautiful human question.

And it was just a beautiful thing. It's like we can put aside our government's differences and we can be friends. Anyway, we've had a phone call since then, and anyway, I just wish we could see people.

Yeah, well, I think you just connected to the person. Right there, you know? And I think when we're online and we're talking to one another, we don't, we lose sight of the fact that it's a whole person and who that whole person is. And even sometimes when we're talking to people we know, like, I know I've got, one of my team members, her family is breaking apart. Extended family members are breaking apart. Uh, siblings are having huge divisions. over the politics. And so you know who the, they know one another deeply in many ways, and yet in the fear, they've lost sight of all they know about who each other are.

And again, we know each other, and yet because of these differences, we're choosing not to look beyond that. We're stops, we don't see them anymore. We don't hear them anymore. And then from an emotional perspective, they become the enemy.

Yeah. I think they become the enemy to somehow, I think in our fear, you know, we do our typical fight, flight, freeze, which is all about trying to protect ourselves. We actually are trying to get back to safety and it doesn't look like it, you know, because we're actually creating more fear and more disconnection. but those behaviors are there inside of us because we're actually trying to figure out how we could maybe get back to safety somehow.

Yes, yes. And so if I hear what you're saying there, there's something really important in that transition, getting back to where, where are we trying to get back to? The fear of has overrode our system, if I can say that, it's overcome us. And now I'm going to get back to a place where I experience and feel what? this person is somebody I love. This person matters. This person is a human being that I have known and maybe for decades. And are they really the enemy or is it my mind putting them into a space where yes, we can disagree, but it doesn't have to be an enemy. And I think that's a big distinction that we're really struggling with in our culture is seeing somebody that we don't agree with or maybe that's hurt us and still saying, Can I have a relationship with this person? So one of the core things is we have these individuals that we've seen as the enemy, but they're not the enemy. They're people we've known for decades. How do we get back to seeing them as people?

I think when we are in that kind of fear response, we have to recognize that at the core of it, what we're actually trying to get to is safety and that safety doesn't come in it doesn't come in fighting about the disagreements and it doesn't come in fleeing, like cutting off relationship. Safety actually comes when we are connected to others and safety actually comes when we can disagree with someone and still see them fully as fully human, know who they are and stay in some kind of connection. And that I would argue, like when I'm, when we're thinking about connection here in this conversation, that it can be connection with somebody who you love, who's a spouse, a partner, a sibling, a really close friend. But it can also be connection in your community with people on Facebook or people on your Nextdoor app or people on in groups that you're in, that it's also, it's connection even with people who are acquaintances and that kind of thing that the safety comes in being able to acknowledge that we are all in this together at some level, and we are all humans, and we are all trying to figure it out.

And what I really like about that is we all are humans. We all, if we can't see that we are going to have differences, and maybe that is a big challenge that we as a society have is we almost got to the point where it is like we don't like conflict, so we ignore the people that we have differences with, or we fight with them. rather than trying to understand perception and perspective, because a more mature mind says, of course we're gonna have differences. But I can do it with dignity and respect and leave you with dignity and respect, even if we disagree.

Yes. And I can see difference as something, I will say this, I do think difference is something that's kind of queued into our threat system too. arouse our attention and make us pay attention to see if difference is threatening. So I do think that when we're encountering difference, and we're encountering that a lot right now in our culture as people are having very different opinions about very significant things, we do have to sort of override our natural impulse for difference to scare us.

And I think that because of that, if we would pause long enough, going back to where we started, you know, really pausing enough to get our senses about us, we might be more curious. We might more ask, ask more questions, like, help me understand where you're coming from, because I might not see it the way you see it, and you might not see it the way I see it. But, boy, I sure could ask a few more questions. Say, help me understand, because normally what we're getting there is this. I'm gonna say the biggest gun boom. and, oh, I can't negotiate with that because we're not talking about that. It's almost like we pull out our biggest guns and say, you, want to fight with these rather than trying to genuinely, wait a second, help me understand where you're coming from here. Let me understand more of what's on your mind.

Yeah, I think when we're in that threat response, it's very easy to deal with the difference piece and then the uncertainty because it also creates uncertainty. when we experience difference. One of the ways that we try to deal with that winner, when we're reactive is we take a power over or a power under position. And that is a super protective stance. That's the big gun you're talking about. Now it's bringing out the big gun and being very black and white and very binary. Like in this conversation, there's going to be a winner and a loser. there's going to be one person who's right and one person who's wrong, and we're both going to assert power over with one another rather than a relational paradigm. I mean, that's a transactional paradigm that I just described. Right. Versus a relational paradigm that says, can we talk about the disagreements? Can we even tell each other that we're scared? Even acknowledge that your view scares me. You know, I don't understand it. Could we even talk on that level and have a relational conversation?

And that would be a relational conversation. It would be a mature conversation for me to speak to fear or concern or worry and not receive it as a threat, but more as a, wow, I had no idea that that was so scary to you. Please help me understand more. Again, I think if we understand each other more, there's something something that's going to happen, it's going to help our nervous system. Because when we feel like this person is the enemy, I can't understand you, you scare me, which often ironically, I mean, literally we could be having the same conversation about betrayal trauma.

It is identical. Listen, our protest behaviors are what they are in almost every situation, right? They are the same across the board.

And so pick a topic here, right? If we can have a mature conversation, then we're going to be asking more questions. We're going to be seeking to understand and we're not going to be deceiving and we're not going to be lying and we're not going to be manipulating and you talked about an over or under person. We don't see it as a power play. We see it as a let's understand equal playing field, understanding each other.

Yeah, an equal playing field and the ability to have conversation where there doesn't have to be a winner or a loser, and there doesn't have to be one person is right and one person is wrong. But there, the goal is much more a goal of understanding than winning in that context.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if our political system could do that?

Yeah. Our political system is very stuck right now in power over and power under and Not, not doing that. And I think, honestly, that's where for me, I feel like we as just, we the people, we the individuals have to look at that and say, gosh, we can't let it, let us, we can't follow that model. Cause that model is disastrous for us.

And literally in every level, it's disastrous for us. We are better human beings when we stop and realize it doesn't matter the side of the aisle. that, right? You might have your passion, you might have something you care about, but at the same time, we all go home, we all have to be in it. We go home to something, whether it's our cat or dog or our spouse or our parents, whatever it may be, we go home and we still put on the same pants or dress in whatever we're wearing. We still are human beings and we still have to do the same human activities as everyone else.

Exactly. Yeah. And we get to do them either from a place of connection or we become more and more isolated and more and more locked in our fear.

And our society is only as strong, I often say, as our relationships. I mean, the fabric of our society, if we are together, if we are united, if we are connected, then we see people, we love people, we care about people, we have compassion for people, We serve people, we lift people up, and what we avoid is putting people down, criticizing them, demeaning them, belittling them, which we see as a culture, as maybe a common occurrence today.

Yeah, it's a really interesting thing. I think one of the things that I've been just observing in myself lately with all of this that's been going on, and this may sound weird, but I've been having much more gratitude and appreciation for the little interactions I have with strangers. Like the people who wave me into the line of cars and the person who checks me out and the actually I got re-rerended in the Starbucks line today.

Oh man.

And got out and had a nice little conversation with that person. It was all good. But it's those interactions with people, I don't even know them, but I find myself valuing them more right now. I think because of the cultural mood or vibe that we're all in, those moments of connection feel to me like that's what keeps us all connected. That is the glue that holds us together. Are those human interactions with one another where we just show up and are kind and doing the right thing in the moment.

And it's that simple conversation, right? You could have got out of the car. You could have been cussing. What were you thinking? What are you doing? Instead of from a place of gratitude, you have this meaningful conversation. And I'm going to guess that that person felt embarrassed and they felt ashamed of, you know, I rear ended you.

Yeah.

They were probably expecting something different than having a meaningful, cordial conversation.

Yeah, and yeah, it was, you know, it was fine. My car was not hurt, their car was not hurt. They were much younger than me. They were like a young person who was like absolutely covering her face in shame about it. It was like, look, we're all okay here. Go on about your way. Have a good day. Thank you. You know, but it was an, it was again, it's those little interactions that I'm noticing more, and I think I'm just valuing them more. I think maybe in the past, I've just taken them for granted and I'm paying more attention for some reason right now.

And one of the phrases I heard many years ago that I really like, I read it in a book, it was called Intimate Interactions. And that's something that I've thought a lot about is if I, and here's the reality, if I have more intimate interactions with the people around me, it's gonna be a better day for me. And it might be as simple as having a conversation when someone rear ends you, or it might be that person standing in front of you in a line, or it might be that person who in some way serves you, holds the door, smiles at you, or vice versa, you smile and hold the door, or whatever it may be, just as an expression of I see you.

Yeah, and it just, what it makes me think is some of this, I think maybe goes back to like, what are we valuing? And to really remind ourselves to value the ways that we are connected and interwoven into one another's lives at every level. I mean, all day long, we're interwoven into one another's lives, you know? And so to value that in a way that will make you be able to do that pause that we talked about and think about, well, wait a minute, how would I want to interact here? if I'm in a different kind of awareness about I value this person even though I really disagree with them.

You know, and that's a hard thing to do. It's a really hard thing to do is to send value to somebody who you strongly disagree with. And it really is something that I have observed in myself. I love sports. And so for me, there are arch rivals and so forth. But I pause every once in a while to think, how powerful is this emotion in me where I can feel feelings of dislike for somebody because of a sports game or an outcome. And I think the more mature me would recognize it's a game. And these guys have worked so hard and my team has worked so hard. What an incredible experience to observe these teams compete.

Yeah, it is a very easy thing, I think, when you disagree with somebody. to shift into those power dynamics of one up or one down. And almost always when we shift into one up, we shift into some contempt. Other person. And I'm with you, like, I trust and believe I am not immune to any of this, you know, I have my own issue with it where I just want to, you know, have a big conversation with somebody in my head about how much I disagree with them and be in contempt in doing that. And so it's such a human impulse that we all have. But I think if ever there was a moment to look at it and to think about it and to try to really work with yourself on it in terms of how you interact, this is the moment to be doing that.

And so let's walk through some steps, stages, suggestions on how we can go about doing that, and maybe things that you have found to be effective in your own life, but also things that you found effective.

You know, I would say one of the first things that comes to mind when you say that is I've just had to really think about how to help myself try to stay out of fear. I think that if you keep exposing yourself to folks that aren't thinking about this and are just operating from fear and operating from reactivity, operating from contempt, that's contagious. I mean, we are creatures that pick up fear in other people. We pick it right up in our nervous systems. And so I think one of the basic things that I've had to do is get very, very thoughtful and intentional about what I expose myself to and when I expose myself to it. also both things.

And tell me more about the when. That's a very interesting concept. So how do you determine when you can and when you can't?

Well, so I don't know about you, but it's always tempting to wake up and look at your phone.

Right, right, right.

It's always tempting to do that and to read news in the morning, to read things in the morning, or listen to a podcast while you're getting ready for work or on your way to, you know, And I have just had to decide that I don't do that in the morning. I don't look at my phone in the morning. I don't listen to that kind of stuff in the morning because it sets my nervous system for the day and it sets me in a higher state of stress and anxiety and fear that I then take into my day. And so I've had to decide, actually, I have to do this one. I'm pretty resourced. and maybe midday I'll go on and read because I feel more like I'm not setting my day, I'm awake, I'm resourced, I'm in the middle of everything. I feel like I'm better able to stay out of the fear.

I really like the idea there, digital minimalism. Cal Newport wrote a book with that title, and he talked about being intentional in our consumption and, and that's really what you just described. There's a time for me to consume, and there's a time where it, that's not a great starting point. That's not the set point that I want to begin my day with. And, and by the time you do consume, you say resource, which is really important. Again, listeners, when your energy is low, we get ego depleted or energy depleted. The book willpower by Roy Baumeister, he talks about, you know, when our energy is high and our energy is low, I'm going to assume that when our energy is lowest and I'm engaging in that kind of stuff, I'm not going to be very effective personally. But you use the word resourced, which means that there's a calmness, there's a steadiness, you feel strength.

Yeah. And actually, I haven't really thought about this until this minute, but I think the other piece for me, and this is just for me personally, is that if I'm doing that in the morning as I'm entering my day, it. I tend to be kind of more of a blank slate in the morning a little bit, you know, and then once I'm in my day, I'm connected to purpose. I'm connected to all the people around me that I love and enjoy. I'm connected to laughter and warmth. That resources me in a different way for when I have those conversations than when I'm waking up and I'm sort of in that early morning, blank slate mode haven't really launched into everything, you know?

So interesting then, we might say understanding your when you're going to be able to deal with that versus when you're not going to be able to. And I actually say that to couples. There might be a time for you guys to have these difficult conversations, and there's probably times where you probably want to say, I love you so much, we probably ought to go to bed and talk about it tomorrow.

Yes. Oh, 100%. I think the one is key. Like, I don't do it before bed either.

Well, you wouldn't sleep, right?

You're not gonna sleep if you jack yourself up and your nervous system up before that. So I think I guess what was just standing out to me in that and thinking about that is that being resourced, part of being resources, feeling connected, you know, and often when we're laying in bed at night, we're about to drift off to sleep, even if we're laying by the person we love, we're still kind of in our own little bubble. And if you're on the phone reading, as you're doing that, you're creating all kinds of anxiety for your nervous system.

Which gets us to maybe one of the core points of, if we're going to be effective at this, we have to understand our own nervous system. Am I in fight mode? Am I in flight mode? Often, am I shut down? often. And am I present? Am I able to be present? And is my arousal, emotional arousal, am I angry? Am I frustrated? Or am I calm? And I think that self-awareness of where we're actually at emotionally would be a really good point to seriously take into account as we evaluate ourselves.

Yeah, and what's my go-to behavior? You know, do I tend to fight? Like, so when I get stressed and anxious that I'm scared, Do I tend to fight and go, like, I want to post on and rebut everything online, or I want to have a fight with my partner, or I wanna, or am I somebody who I want to cut you off? I'm going to ghost you. I'm going to withdraw. I'm going to distance. So also just knowing what's my go-to way that I cope with being scared so that I can then help myself. Know that that's my impulse and we all have a go to. So, you know, you're just a human being if you're identifying that we all have a go to. But to be able to identify that and say, okay, then how can I work with that to do something different?

Excellent. All right. As we get ready to close up, I got two questions for you. So our listening audience, this is the human intimacy podcast. What has been the most effective thing that you have found Michelle to help individuals and couples create deeper levels of intimacy in their lives.

I would say the most effective thing I have found on that is to help people understand the deeper emotional needs that are driving their behaviors, that are driving how they engage and to recognize that everybody around them has those same deep emotional needs. Everybody around them is operating out of the same needs that you have. Everybody has the same ones. And that's what's driving how we're all trying to get those needs met at the end.

We want connection. We long for connection. We desire connection. We, the basic, these most basic needs, we all are looking for them.

We want to matter. we want to belong, we want to feel accepted, we want to feel loved.

Yes. Awesome. Awesome. All right. I think you and I could go on and on in the conversation. So, Michelle, I just genuinely appreciate your time. My final question. You're going to be speaking at the human intimacy conference. If you could give our listeners a little bit of a kind of a little bit of insight into what you're going to be talking about, and that would be helpful.

We are going to be talking about how our attachment systems function and a lot of similar to what we've been talking about today, but the things that get in the way of how we connect and also really thinking about different stages and phases of recovering as a couple and how your attachment system is operating in those different phases and stages of how you're healing with one another.

And if I could just pick your brain real quick, because I, I love it when I can ask these types of questions to people that I really admire their work. When it comes to couple repair, we, we, our original attachment style seems to be, I don't know, maybe there's a chink in the armor and how, maybe how we were early in our attachment approach after betrayal. Maybe there's a lot of questions about secure attachment. And maybe I don't feel, maybe I feel more anxious because I've been betrayed. How do you see people's attachment style change as they heal?

So right after experiencing betrayal, and there's, you know, all the research on attachment styles in the fourth attachment style, which was disorganized attachment, all that research was done by looking at babies and toddlers who had this experience of their primary attachment figure who was a caregiver or parent. becoming unsafe to be connected to, but they are their primary attachment figure. And having to figure out how to navigate the lack of safety with your primary attachment figure, that is what actually creates disorganization in our attachment system. It's that dynamic, and that is the exact dynamic that we deal with with betrayal with our romantic partner. with the person we love is our primary attachment figure has now become dangerous. And then we're trying to navigate that. So it throws right after betrayal, most people experience a lot of disorganization in their attachment system because of that specific dilemma that they are engaged in dealing with. As you go through the process of healing, I think you come out of that disorganization. and you start to come back into maybe your typical attachment patterns that pre-existed discovery and all the chaos after that. And then as you heal, you start to work on if you are insecurely attached, how do I start to develop secure attachment with myself and with my partner? So I'm always thinking about secure attachment with both self and others.

I love it. Interesting to me is that we as a culture understand the attachment model far too often. We've overlooked it in adult relationships. I think we have early research on this shaver. Shaver. I think that's the name.

Yeah. Yeah.

Philip Shaver. I look at some of that research. I'm like, they actually understood it, whatever, 30 years ago. But even there. the adult attached us. The need for connection never goes away. And yet it's a constantly shifting thing in these adult relationships. And really, if we were to look inside, we could really get a lot more personal awareness by understanding our attachment approach to attached relationships. And that's one of the things I really appreciate about your model and how you're working with couples.

Thank you. Well, you know, one of the things that's fascinating to me, and I don't know what to make of it, but I feel like we're at a moment where we have more research and knowledge and awareness of our attachment systems and how they impact everything. So we are, like, at a high point in our understanding of that as a species, and we're also at a high point with disconnection and not valuing our attachments. And I just find that a very fascinating paradoxical thing that's happening for us.

I, that is interesting to me as well. That is fascinating because high insight and awareness, low in interaction or low, what's the right word I'm trying to say?

Low application. I don't know.

Low application, right? I have the awareness, but lower application. And it's, that's the shift of how do we take all this information that we've described and put it into application? And that's actually one of the reasons why I'm doing this podcast and that's why we're doing this conference, because putting these things into application. I have found with my clients, I don't know about you, Michelle, but, you know, I will often, you know, we'll get to a certain point of awareness, then I'll say, I'd like you to go listen to this podcast, or I'd like you to read this book.

And the reason why is because sometimes.

People need to hear it a different way. I've heard it the way Dr. Skinner said it, or I've heard it the way Michelle said it. I've heard it another way. And all of a sudden we start to get these things coming together and it's like, did you know? And I've had clients come to me and say, hey, I learned this in Michelle's book. I'm like, fantastic. We've been talking about this in a different way, and now you actually are applying it or getting it in a really important way.

Yes. I mean, I love to send people because I want them to get the, the thinking and the model. Like, let's not spend therapy time on that. Let's spend therapy time on application, on implementation in your life. Absolutely. Right.

Well, awesome, awesome. Michelle, thank you so much for your time today. It's been a very insightful and informative. podcast. Thank you so much for joining us.

Yes, thank you for the great conversation.

And to our listeners, if you have not yet signed up for the Human Intimacy Conference, it is our first annual conference. We've got multiple clinicians, over 400 hours of clinical experience, 20 plus clinicians, a lot of seasoned experts. Come join us. And if you will type in 50 off, you will get $50 off registration. And I absolutely appreciate your time listening to this podcast as our listenership has grown. Michelle, we just finished our year mark and it's been just so much great feedback. So I just want to express thanks to our listeners and to great guests like you, Michelle. Thank you so much.

Thank you. around you.

It's like you're shining, you're soaring.