https://www.listennotes.com/e/59fd0a5b87d14b98a38ead780069cf45

Welcome to Finding Noble, a podcast where we climb into the world of young people's mental health and where we provide support for the adults who support them. I'm your host, Carlie Redd. Hi, and welcome to another episode of Finding Noble. I am Carlie Redd, your host, and I'm with my co-host, Dr. Kevin Skinner. Hi, Dr. Skinner.

Hey, how are you, Carly?

I'm doing so good today, and we have a special guest with us. Dr. Melissa Lopez-Larson is here with us today, and we couldn't be more thrilled as we are discussing bullying and social stressors outside the home and perhaps even inside the home. So we're really excited to have your expertise and your wisdom with us. Dr. Skina, would you mind maybe telling us a little bit more about Dr. Lopez-Larson, Dr. Melissa?

Yes. So one thing that I know about Dr. Melissa is she is fantastic with children, her life experiences and her experience. We actually at Parent Guidance, she's done a wonderful course on parent guidance. It's absolutely a blessing. But Dr. Melissa is a board certified child adolescent and adult psychiatrist and received her MD from the University of Cincinnati of School of Medicine. She performed her adult and psychiatric training at Harvard Medical School. training sites, including Massachusetts General Hospital, McLean Hospital, and Cambridge Hospital. She's been practicing for almost 20 years in a variety of settings, including academic research, inpatient, residential, and outpatient psychiatric services. We are so excited to have you with us, Dr. Melissa.

Thank you so much for having me. I was appreciative and I always love the opportunity to talk about some of the work that I do and really try to pass along some of the, all the kind of the information and knowledge I've gathered over the years by learning treating families and kids and adolescents. And it's brought me so much joy in my life. And I wanna make sure that I'm actually getting this word out and letting people understand a little bit more about everything our kids go through nowadays and how we can best support them. And in particular, how we can help them address bullying. I've been practicing for many, many years now, and I have what we call more of an integrative medicine approach. I had an integrative medicine training top of my child and adolescent fellowship. and it really taught me to look at the full picture of a person. And so I bring that to my treatment modalities for my kids and teens because they're not on their own, but they're literally living in community and their communities include schools and families and sports and hobbies and friends. And using an integrative approach to a treat and consider how we can help them negotiate the world with the use of an integrative approach is perfect. And so that's what I wanted to share with you all a little bit today. And I have a child and she's a preteen now. And so right in the thick of this, as I was preparing for this talk, I was like, oh gosh, yes, it reminded me sometimes of these are like important pieces that I want to convey not only to everybody else, but I have to remember them for myself too, because parenting is hard and we don't get a manual and all of our kids are different. And I can't stress enough the importance of just opening and keeping those doors of communication open no matter what. And if we can do that, we're going to provide a great service to our kids. and we're going to know when they're in trouble. So that's my lead in and I'm excited to be here and I just love to participate in programs like this and see how I can be helpful.

You talked about integrative medicine or integrative treatment. I'd love to hear how you describe that because I think many parents listening say, okay, what do you mean by integrative, that process of the whole approach? What are you referring to?

So how I visualize an integrative approach is I treat the person from the inside out, whether it be from a biological medical I think supplements, I might think medicine, I might think therapy all the way to I feel family, peers, schools, community, legal, all parts of what make us whole. And why put treatment plans together for patients? I really will walk through, well, how can I support them here? How can they support themselves? Where can I get some additional services so that it's, I'm just not seeing them for one specific thing and saying, okay, here's your therapy or here's your prescription, but Let's really think about this whole individual and how I can help guide them in a way to getting the services to meet their needs.

We're talking about being bullied and how that influences children. And I love this approach because you're able to look at it from a holistic perspective because you might have a school system that is struggling to reduce bullying and you might have after school activities or online events. You might have a community. And so as you look at this concept of being bullied, what's happening in our own homes and in our families. So I love this approach.

Yeah, exactly. So when I think of if a parent were to, you know, come to me and say, my child is being bullied, let's start breaking this down from an individual level. What is the, how does our student or our, our child, this kid that I'm seeing, how do they relate with relationships on an individual level? And then I think, what are the family relationships and dynamics in the home? And then I'll start thinking about peers and interactions and what's happening in the school system. Is there a sports involvement? Is there something going on there? There's hobbies or extracurricular activities or volunteering activities. So I try to really start thinking about all the different layers that are interacting in this child's life and ways that could be a problematic or ways that we could use to intervene to help support this child.

That's wonderful. I have a question for you. Why is bullying universal. Why is this an age-old problem? And really, why do kids bully? And is that even an answerable question? I don't know if that is.

Well, I think bullying often stems from a lot of different sources. One of them being, I might feel badly about myself, and all of a sudden I have this sense of, I might be more social or I might be more athletic or I might be popular all of a sudden. And, and I kind of like that attention. and so I'm going to utilize maybe some of my skills in my benefit because I get some kind of social benefit from that. I also think a lot of kids who are bullies were actually bullied in the past. And so they might remember, I felt awful, I was afraid, I'm angry about it, and I'm never going to let that happen to me again. And the way to do that is I'm now going to be the bully because nobody's ever going to hurt me again. And then there's other situations where, you know, that's the established relationship in the home, right? Maybe a sibling bullies them, or there might be domestic violence in the home. or some of the relationships in the home are built on a power differential that they have learned over the years. So there's a lot of different ways that we as a society have promoted and perpetuated bullying on some level, but doesn't mean we couldn't do things to help intervene and teach kids. Like maybe there's another way to continue to be popular, right? Or continue to be an amazing athlete, but use that to your advantage in a different way and still get what you need. we all like to be praised, and social status is important to most of us on some level. But how can you maintain that, that Persona? But, but being true to yourself and your values is what I'd like to figure out how to teach our kids.

And during those formative years, I know that is the practice period, right? We're learning who we are, our identity in general and everyone else's and Yes, that instability of identity, I'm sure plays a huge part into it. And maybe a more pertinent question is, how do we identify bullying?

Right.

I think for Phil, we just have to talk about it. That it, what happens to a lot of people, I don't even know a lot of people who could say they've never been bullied on some level. Maybe they just didn't recognize it. And, but having open communications, talking to our kids, like leaving the door open, making sure we're not shaming either people who are being bullied or shaming the people who are bullying because there are some clearly some reasons for why it's happening on both ends. It's a complex dynamic with a lot of interplays and inner workings. And so let's just try to understand it. And I think you bring up a good point. Kid and adolescents, their job is in a way to learn, fail and learn. And it's not really failure, but it's they're trying to figure this out. And these are, I don't want to say this, this might come off in the wrong way. If our child comes to us saying they're bullied or they're being the bully or like these are like critical times where we actually have something to intervene about. Because sometimes our kids are just chucking along, we never hear anything. We don't know what we could be helping to support them with. But when there's a clear kind of identifier, oh, you're being bullied. Let's try to figure this out. We can actually get, there's that critical time, we could intervene positively in our kids life because we have something to work with. And trying to not visualize these as, oh, these are, this is a disaster. My gosh, my kids are never gonna be liked. His life is over. No, this is like, we got some meat here. Let's go after this. Let's figure out how we can support this part of his life so that he can continue this journey, you know, really in a position of strength and confidence that he can then manage this on his own and move forward in life and use those tools forever.

And if I could add a part to this, those moments are really crucial moments because if we choose not to do anything, then it can add to what we would call cumulative trauma. from being bullied, and then when we don't respond, then our child feels like, well, I can't turn to my caregiver because they're not protecting me. And as parents, we might not even know the extent of the experience. So in those moments, maybe crucial moments, is to pause, look at the experience, break it down, and let them share how they're interpreting or giving meaning to this, which allows us then to take this and be proactive.

Right.

Rather than reactive. And I think I love the way you put that. This is our chance to stand up and actually gain the trust of our child by saying, look, this is not okay. Let's, we're gonna do this. And I know this is hard because I, but I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna allow that because I love you so much.

Right.

I think it's unusual for a child or a teen to admit they are being bullied. And do they even have the language? Do they even know they're being bullied? And how do we prepare or equip our kids with the language or the components of what is considered bullying. And I think maybe even helping them understand this so they know not to bully, that they know what bullying is. I heard you talk about this power differential. Can you tell us a little bit more of what that is? I'm really interested in that.

A part of bullying is an inequality of some form of power on some level, right? Whether that be social power, whether that be economic power, whether it be a racial disparity or differences and gender or identity or those types of things that sets him apart where they on some level feel like they've got it and you don't. And so that's where the power differential kind of develops. And the kids who may be more disenfranchised or who feel like, geez, maybe I'm in this community where I'm not athletic and I'm smart, but I, but maybe not smart enough, or they start thinking about, geez, I'm not like those kids, right? So now I feel inferior on some level because I don't have what it takes to be that. And then the kids who are that feel like, I gotta stay that. And utilize that because I get a social advantage on, in some level in life. And I think that's the root of a lot of people's quest for power in general across the lifespan, right? You, there's privileges if there's perceived power and it can be used in, in disadvantageous ways.

So.

And if I was to say, could we just look at specific behaviors? We could say bullying includes criticisms, put downs, mocking, making fun of.

Right.

It can include physically touching somebody in inappropriate ways, pushing, grabbing, shoving, kicking.

Right.

It can bullying. So it can manifest itself both emotionally, verbally, physically in ways that I am using a power to assert over another human being. so if we just look at it just from a context of what does it even mean, it can be psychological too.

Right.

Which is includes manipulation, lying, deception. And so if we look at bullying as a whole, it can incorporate all of those into the equation.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And having those frank conversations around our kids, you know, a lot of times I hear this, somebody tends to like to spread a lot of rumors and talking about something as perpetuating, even not even starting, but perpetuating a rumor can really be harmful to another person. And when I talk about parents is we're all so busy in life and we're just going through the motions and trying to get things done, but keep those ears open. When you hear, oh, so and so was being mean, or so and so said something awful to so and so, or I heard something about so and so, you know, just take a minute, just take a minute and just say, you know what? This is important. I need to check in about this right now. Or is this a teaching moment right now? Do I need to investigate this more? Because I don't think we do that enough. We, especially if our kids, we think they're chucking along fine, everything is looking good, they're not complaining to us. But it could be because they're just not talking to us because they're not even sure how to talk to us about some of these things. And they're not even sure, as you point out, if that's wrong because everybody else is making or talking about rumors.

Why, why would that be a bad thing?

It seems to be the social norm.

Yeah.

What can we look for if our child is potentially being bullied? Are there signs if it's happening? Maybe I've heard isolating more, maybe a little more anxious. Is there anything else we should be looking for?

I think isolating for sure, not wanting to go to school, like always, you know, Sunday nights, Monday mornings, seems to always have a headache or stomach aches or is sick, feeling like they're, they come home and they're not talking to their friends anymore, or they used to be more social, they're not, they feel sad, they may not be eating as much. or they might just be downright anxious and their anxiety may come out in other ways. And some ways it could be anger and irritability, or they might look like they're really struggling with math, even though they've always been good at math, like it could come up and impact different areas of their life. So I think any kind of change in your child, especially if it's dramatic, should be a red flag that something is happening.

And maybe I'd love to hear both of your opinions or ideas surrounding if there are actual questions we can ask our kids. I know that you've talked about in your class on parent guidance that bullying is classified as something that happens repeatedly, that it's often intentional. How do we ask our kids these questions? How if we do see signs, it's really hard because, for instance, I have a 12 year old right now who is, well, he's almost 12. he's moody and he's sleeping a lot more and he doesn't want to go to school and he doesn't want to do his chores and he seems less interested in a lot of things. But having two other teenagers, I remember this happening with them, you know, going through growth spurts and being extra tired. Is this a growth spurt? Is this a natural part of development or is something more serious happening? And so do you have specific questions we could actually ask our kids that would allow them to open up and Speak on maybe something that is happening repeatedly and feels almost detrimental or makes them adverse to social situations, not wanting to be around people in the same way they used to.

Well, I think one of the ways that if you're, you're having some concerns is set a time that you feel like you have undebated, you know, a chunk of time and find something fun to do with them. Whether it be, Hey, let's go watch a movie. Let's go to a movie. Or, Hey, let's, you and I go out to eat. Or let's, like, set up a date for us and we can just go and hang out and, and do something fun, creative, you know, get them moving and talking and just say, you know, I've been really kind of worried about you. You seem more tired and I know that happens around kids your age, but I just wanted to check in with you. I worry about you. You're sleeping a lot. Just wanna make sure I'm not missing anything. when sometimes they might say, well, I don't know. They might hem and haw around it, or, or they might give you a little bit more information, or they might say, you know what? You know, nothing's wrong. Mom, I'm just tired. But the fact that you tried, you open the door, you didn't force anything, but it tells them, Hey, listen, I'm here. And you can tell me anything. And I promise I'll take the mommy hat off for a minute or the daddy hat off. I'm just gonna listen. she no matter what you have to say, and I won't judge. And I just want to give you this opportunity to share whatever it is that you, you may have on your mind. And we could talk about anything. It doesn't always have to be like, what's good, what's great going on with your life? Tell me about that friend. You know, I noticed that you seem to have a new friend group. Tell me about 'em. I want to learn more. The conversation doesn't always have to focus on, oh geez, I think something's wrong, but hey, I noticed things are going great. And that helps start setting the stage, especially if you do that regularly with your kids.

Okay, let's go have a chat day.

Like that.

And one of the things that we do at the dinner table, we'll play a game and this is for everybody. Like, all right, so what's the best part of your day? What's the most difficult part of your day? And sometimes it's a one-on-one with a child and then, okay, what's the best thing going on in your life right now? Just something that you think, Hey, this is going well. What would be the more difficult thing going on in your life right now? And there are times where we introduce, okay, tell us how are things going with your friends? And the interactions there, it will manifest itself. Oh, these friends don't like each other. They're fighting back and forth. Tell me a little bit more. And it's the curiosity. It just, we're just getting them to share a story. But usually in a story, we start to see things unfold like this person's always unkind or this person's critical. They ever done that to you? And now we start to get a story in a natural sequence of just a conversation. And so one of the things that we've intentionally done in our home is we have best and worst. parts of your days. And this is just a regular conversation around a dinner table or before the end of the day. And it's interesting, the stories you start to hear and you're like, wow, okay, tell me more. That's interesting. And all of a sudden you start to get a story and they were picking on this other child. Have they ever done that to you? Oh, they do it all the time. Oh, okay. Now we've got a story.

I love that. I love that curiosity and the regularity of it that maybe you won't find out anything. In most instances, but the times where they do bring something up, you'll be aware of it because it will still out of the norm. I really like that.

And there's one other part there. So the interpretation of it may be the most important thing. How do you make sense of that? Well, they're just that way. Or, you know, I guess there's something wrong with me because I'm the only one they treat that way, right? So now you get the interpretation or the meaning of it. And that's such a critical part because I don't want to interpret the experience. I want them to tell me how they're interpreting it.

Ooh, that's good. Yeah, why is that? Why do we want them to interpret it?

Well, because if it's my interpretation, then I'm telling them how to feel and how to think about this experience. They may say, you know, they're just unkind to everybody. You ever wondered why they're that way? And now I'm letting them tell the story. Well, you know, they just, they're always upset or they have a difficult home life or again, I don't know the story, but usually they interpret it. And again, it's so critical that it's their voice. But there are times where I'll step in and say, boy, that feels like it's wrong.

Yeah.

And so there's times where I will do that because I want to interject in there if it's really something that like, I'll give you an example. A few years ago, this young man was saying unkind things to my daughter. And part of it's because she didn't want to date him anymore. She didn't want to, right? She didn't want to interact. And he started being cruel and saying things to other people that was just absolutely inappropriate. and so it influenced how she saw herself. And so we started asking questions, like, I wonder why he's doing that. Well, because I don't want to date him and Martha's angry. Okay, but what is it doing to you? And now we get the interpretation of it. And again, their interpretation of it is such a critical thing because if I see my child starting to shrink there, I want to make sure that it's addressed because it's a huge unaddressed issue that leads into other relationship fears, worries, and concerns. We want to address that.

I think as a parent, we always want to fix everything. And in that circumstance, I imagine you want to fix it. I'm hearing you say, though, that maybe it's more important in these relationships to sit with them and to be there and to listen, be a witness to what they're experiencing in truth, rather than, like you said, supplant your ideas onto what's happening. I also wanted to add, I liked that you identified, Hey, that doesn't sound right. Is that important as well? Like, do we need to be saying that's actually not healthy behavior, or that actually is hurtful behavior, not helpful behavior, that's not a safe person to be around right now. How important is that to identify the, to say it?

I'll let you take that, Dr. Melissa.

I think it's very important. One of the things I think as we're getting some information from our child is are the comments or the behaviors, is it kind of as hurtful in the moment or is it actually hurtful? And the value that our kids place on whatever's happening or has been said to them is important information because somebody says, you know, you look terrible today. And, but you know in yourself, actually I look pretty cute. I like this outfit. I'm fine. That wasn't a very nice thing to say, but that's fine. Whatever. to walk away from that. But if somebody says, you look terrible today to a child who doesn't feel good about themselves in general, that's harmful to them. So getting that piece, like how did that feel? Like what did that, did that really, did that resonate with you in a way? Does that kind of, in a way, jive with the narrative of how they believe themselves to be, you know, if they believe themselves to be inferior in some way or not pretty enough or smart enough or athletic enough or whatever enough, We need to know that information so now we can decide, okay, maybe we do need to intervene more significantly and maybe fact check with them. Like, well, that can't possibly be true. Like, this is the greatest outfit I've ever seen. I can't believe. I mean, totally. I mean, obviously, you know, and how do you feel about it? And in fact, as long as you like it, you know, kind of giving them, making sure that they are okay with what they're hearing and can push it aside because that's a good skill. We all need to figure out who we are, figure out what our strengths, maybe things we need to work on, but not really take in and own that, those negative things that come at us. And if we can't do that's where we need to figure out ways to intervene and support more.

I love that response. Thank you. Dr. Scannella, you looked like you were excited to say something.

Well, in context of that, I love that concept because the moment they start interpreting it, they're actually doing their own, I call it their own version of therapy.

Right?

Because when you open up and you talk about experiences, contrast that with when you're shut down and you would just internalize it, I don't look good. I don't look good in those clothes, or maybe I'm not as pretty as others. And you start to see a belief that is formed inside of them. And that's the belief that I found as a therapist as they've gotten older is a limiting belief. I'm not smart enough. I'm not good enough. I'm not pretty as others. And so all of a sudden you see this internalized belief and that's where I see people get stuck. And sometimes it lasts for years. I can't tell you how many times I've seen adults in my office talking about being bullied, and these people are 60 years old, and they're still talking about an event that occurred to them when they were 12 or 13 or 14. And it's influenced them for 40 plus years because nothing was done with it at that stage.

Yeah, I've been listening to a book by Jamil Zaki. He's a Stanford professor and director. He studies empathy and kindness in the human brain, which is fascinating to me. But he says how the way we view the world shapes our experience of it. But in regards to this topic today, I wanted to flip it. Our experience with how the world views us might shape how we view the world. Could we say that? And really, how does bullying affect an individual's worldview? Like you said, what are these long-term effects from bullying and what happens as we age, even if we've been bullied as a small child?

Well, the negative effects of bullying are vast. And as Dr. Scaramella pointed out in our clinics, a lot of the work we do with adults is going back and trying to repair some of these negative self-concepts that they believed about themselves. from childhood to adolescence. And then how those native events that they bought into that's become part of their narrative of who they are impacts relationships, their mental health, their ability to go for that raise or to push themselves in the work environment versus not. It can really impact somebody's, the fullness of their life moving forward. And I think it does that in so many different ways. I think that would be the best way I could describe it.

Yeah.

And if we were to look at it specifically, I think we could say it can influence their physical health and well-being.

Absolutely. Right.

So when you are in a constant state of stress and the stress comes because of the internalized stress, I've seen people go extra level exercise because they were told they were obese or fat. And so now they're exercising five and six hours a day because they're trying to make their body so that it's not obese or fat. And so that hurtful language, now I'm trying to prove that I'm enough. And so I think there's an element, I'm trying to prove that I'm not what I was told I was.

Right.

And then the second part of that is the mental stress, right? The depression, the anxiety, and in some situations, the loneliness, because I don't fit, I don't belong. And so I'm socially isolated. and that's where I see the greatest impact, both physically and mentally, is when people internalize those things and now they're trying to prove something that, that it's not true, or they accept it as a truth and they just lose hope.

Yeah, I could agree more. And then I think it, it, it can just be lifelong and, very devastating to how we view ourselves and the things that we'll say to ourselves. How we talk to ourselves is really how we believe ourselves to be and really figure out a way to change, A, how we talk to ourselves so that we can then change how these negative things that we think about ourselves is the thing that we really want to tackle in childhood and adolescence. Because if we can do that, then the world is your gamut, right? There's nothing's gonna stop you. But, and that's typically the issues that come up, I think for both of us in our clinical practices is, is how to undo these core negative beliefs that, that we have developed in bullying is one of them, the one that, that kind of sets the stage for some of these longer term views.

I did a podcast last week. We were talking about campus mental health and I asked, how do we prepare for these young adult years? What is the best thing we can do? And one of the experts that we had on said, teaching your kids to have positive self dialogue. Your inner dialogue needs to be positive. It keeps coming up more and everything I'm reading and hearing is that inner dialogue is so imperative to our worldview. Like you said, the way we talk to ourselves, that was so powerful. The way we talk to ourselves is the way we see the world. And if we can start to teach our children how to have good dialogue, positive dialogue within themselves, I think we're setting them up for a lot of success. And that feels like something I can do as a parent. This expert said, ask your child, how are you, how are you speaking to yourself? when I thought, oh, I need to ask my 16 year old daughter, how are you speaking to yourself? How powerful is that? And let's, let's see how that might be harmful and also untrue. That, that those are incorrect thoughts that you're thinking or incorrect things you're telling yourself. Let's flip that. Let's change that. That's powerful. I love that.

And if I could add just a, a little concept there, when we are negative, critical, beating ourselves up, is it not a form of self-bullying?

Absolutely. There's, I want to tell a lot of people, like we're sometimes our biggest bully. We do more negative damaging to ourselves. There's sometimes occurs from the outside world. And how do we turn that inner crank off?

That's really good. Okay, I have another question for you guys. How has technology, phone, social media complicated this issue even further? Well, anyways, how much time do we have?

I mean, social media should be viewed as entertainment only in a lot of ways, but unfortunately these younger kids and adolescents, they view it as a way of life. Like this is what I'm supposed to be. I'm supposed to be having fun and having all these amazing things and all these friends, and I should be taking these amazing trips and vacations, and I should be something or other and making $10 million by the time I'm 19. And so there's all these expectations. I hear all the time, I'm like, wow, that's a lot of pressure. And I think people will do and say things online that they would never say to their peers in person, looking somebody eye in the eye and say that, and you never would. So one of the things I like to tell parents, and just going back to the ecosystem of care is you want to make sure that social media is no longer in the ecosystem of your child's life, determining who they are. And in a lot of ways, we've allowed this part of society to infiltrate their development. And we want to figure out a way to peel that back. When we think about family and community and school and sports and hobbies and all these other things, I see social media pushing its way in to that community. And we don't want social media being part of our kids village. and we're raising our kids, we need a village to raise them. That should not be part of the village. And I think it has been in, in a lot of cases, and I think that's to the detriment of a lot of kids. It's hard to form an identity of who you are and who you need to be when you're getting bombarded with all these different types of social media.

Right?

That's just one aspect of it. The other aspect is you're not really connecting the way that you would by sitting with a friend on a beach. talking about things and talking about life, right? And then there's a lot of just negativity on social media. A lot of you're not good enough, you're not pretty enough, you're not rich enough, you're not smart enough, you're not enough, is a lot of the imagery that kids are getting on a day-to-day basis. So I think as parents, we really need to monitor that. We really need to push back on our kids when they keep demanding for a phone like my preteen. I'm like, no, Not gonna happen. I don't care if everybody else has one, not my problem, right? The answer is gonna be no for quite some time. And really holding those firm boundaries and describing to them the why, like they need to know why, so that they have an understanding that this isn't part, I don't want social media to be a part of their normal natural development because from what I can tell, a lot of it is not particularly useful.

If I could add a couple of core parts to this, the first thing I would say is individuals who've been bullied online, it's less talked about because it's just the way people are interacting online.

Right.

The second part of it is the comparisons that happen online. You mentioned this earlier, Dr. Melissa, the comparisons. I start seeing these people on trips. I start seeing they're doing this and they're doing that, or maybe I wasn't invited to the party.

Right.

And what did I do wrong? And so it may be inadvertent, but it being left out and seeing something that's happening now, I internalize, I don't fit, I don't belong, and now I see myself as different. The technology we have is really an overload of data because I'm seeing into the world of other people and they're seeing into my world and it's so easy to be critical or to judge oneself. And so either that internalization that I'm not accepted or the externalization, they didn't invite me. And so that must say something, right? I'm not as good as we begin to see this internalization of I don't fit. I'm comparing myself. And when we do that too much, it overwhelms our system, and now we're more anxious. And we start. We've started seeing this in the research. Anxiety levels of our teens are higher than we've ever seen. and really the direct relationship is with our technology and how we're consuming it.

And I agree. I mean, I have treated some just amazing young kids and adolescents and they're in college and I'm seeing them and they're so bright and they're so talented. They're very social. I have all these friends. They're doing great academically. They have great job opportunities. And yet the anxiety about comparing themselves to others is just astonishing. But you already have it all. What's the comparison here? It's been perpetuated for so long that they just, it's not, they're not, they're still not enough. I'm still not enough. No matter all the successes that I've had, I'm not enough. And it's really heartbreaking to see that.

And if we look at the positive side of what we do here, it's teaching our children resiliency. and helping them understand their place, their fit, they belong. And then actually one of the best things that we can do is take them away from technology while creating so meaningful social connections.

Right?

Because let's take away from the phones and the devices and all the technology and let's have a pizza party at our place. Or let's play some games and we'll buy the pizza. You guys go to the park, right? Because we're teaching them how to be social. and, and I think the antidote to much of what we're experiencing is actually that connection we're trying to help them create.

And the amount of time, it's such a time suck. It's distracting us from actually forming those relationships. I know Dr. Melissa, in one of your classes, you said relationships should be founded on respect, trust, and kindness. And how are our relationships on social media providing that? Are those relationships full of respect, trust, and kindness? Or should we be spending our time and encouraging our children to be spending time forming actual relationships. I mean, how crucial is that for their development, let alone for their happiness? And if they never learn how to do that, I imagine we just become more and more socially anxious as time goes on, rather than becoming more proficient in social settings. That's right.

That's right. And I think that it starts in the family. In what can we do every day? Maybe we need to sit down and say, these are our core values of our family. and how can we meet these core values? And if you catch me, mom, saying something that doesn't jive with the core values, like maybe I made a comment about somebody on politics or something like that, or who knows, call me out on it, because that's, you know what? We got to all focus on these are our key core values, kindness, compassion, respect, fairness, whatever you decide, and start holding each other accountable for that. All of us in the family, so that we are all seeing it in our daily lives. we, I think the other piece sometimes we miss because we think our kids are just gonna get the core values and morals that we want them to get, but sometimes we gotta be crystal clear about that, right? And this is what we want out of you, the basics, right? These are the core, but this is what makes you a good person. Not like what kind of car you drive when you're 21. Right now, this is what makes you a good, worthy, valuable person, these core values. And what are we gonna do to achieve those? Let's make sure we're all holding each other accountable on a regular basis to make sure that we're all doing it. Because they listen to what we do. They say what we say. They believe a lot of times what we believe. And even if we don't say something off the cuff, like, you know, play wasn't very nice. I just said that. Like we should be held accountable too, but if they just listen and then they interpret that in a way that, oh, that's fine to say. I guess I can say that. Maybe, you know, it just really helps us all to stay on the same page as a family. and it gives them a solid foundation for who they are. And we are really trying to build the foundation piece by piece for our kids. Because if they, if it's solid here, the rest is going to be gravy. They're going to try to figure out who they are as an individual, but the solid foundation is what we've got to make sure they have.

I have a story. It's, it's an experience from my high school years where we had a, an individual who had an accident earlier in life and, and is the consequence of the brain damage. His mind just worked a little bit slower. and he was bullied relentlessly. And I'll never forget just certain days, like the anger inside of me. Don't treat him that way. Don't treat him that way. But I regret that I didn't say more at the time. But I do recall my friends and I said, okay, what can we do for him? We knew that there were some financial challenges in the family. And so we put our money together and we bought him a school yearbook. and we presented him the yearbook as a gift. And if there's one thing I did right in high school, that was probably the one thing I did right in high school, because it was the time where it's like, you matter. And it taught me with my friends to help a person feel felt, help them feel like they matter. Because again, the antidote to bullying is it just takes a person to say, look, you matter. And so the solutions that I think we're looking for is somebody to step in and say, don't treat him that way or don't treat her that way. And when one person does it, it confronts a reality of this is not acceptable behavior. So we almost also have to teach our children to have a voice, which I wish I would have had in high school more efficiently and effectively to be able to stand up and say, it's not okay what you guys are doing.

Well, and they talk about, you know, the bystander effect, you know, to even being witness to kids being bullied and, you know, in and of itself, that puts you, as you mentioned, kind of in a really uncomfortable position. You don't want to be, you don't want to do, you know, should I say something? Should I not say something? What if they turn their, you know, I'm not, what if I become a target? Maybe I should just mind my own business, stay out of it. But, you know, having those conversations too, like, you know, well, if you were in that situation, what would you want others to do, you know, for you? You know, what, what core value have we talked about in our family that would give you the guide you in this situation? But, and we have to talk about that too. You know, in again, going to those critical moments when we're having these conversations and, you know, well, this kid's always getting picked on. Well, look, what could you do to help them? I wonder. you know, they must be feeling really badly and, you know, and maybe they feel nobody cares about them and what could we do different? Could you stand up for them? Could we get a yearbook collection? I mean, the little things matter. And, you know, conveying that piece that just showing an ounce of kindness here and there goes a long way.

I love what you guys are saying. It always begins in the home. And I like the word practice that we're constantly practicing these healthy dynamics, healthy relationships, and looking at the power dynamics, the equality, the trust, respect in our own homes with our own kids, looking at siblings, sibling rivalry. I think we're going to do a podcast episode on that coming up. But how are we practicing this at home? And are we teaching our children that your sibling and every other person you come in contact with, their worth is as important as yours? and that they are deserving of the same love and attention and respect that you deserve and that you desire. And how are we modeling this within our own homes? Are we doing it as parents, the way we interact with our partners and with our children, this belief in human dignity? Are we putting people before any other thing, especially in this tough political cycle? I love that you brought that up because are we making positions more important than the humans? What is our rhetoric? I think those are all really good questions to be asking ourselves. And I know that puts a lot of weight on us parents, and that doesn't feel good, but I actually love knowing that I may have something in my control. There's something that I can be doing to be teaching my kids these things so that when they are in social situations that they know their worth and they know the worth of others, and they are not the ones instigating harm or promoting harm or condoning harm, but they have that voice, they have the vocabulary, they have the ability to stand up for another person and to make sure that the people around them feel that way. And that when someone does it to them, that they already know, no, that's incorrect. That's actually wrong.

Exactly. Exactly. Well, and I, you know, I love what you just said. And I think, you know, as parents, you know, I just want us all to remember, the relationships our kids have in the home and the relationships they see right now are the ones that they're gonna have in 10, 15, 20, 30 years. So if they're good now, they're gonna be good at, you know, later. And if they're not great now, like, what can we do now to make sure that they can develop those relationships in a positive direction moving forward?

And there's one thing we've tried to do in our family. and it's a message I often will talk with my children. Our challenge is to help society be better. And the way we do that is we find the person who's alone. We find the person who doesn't have a friend. We find the person and we try to reach out. And if you will do that, and this is my message to my children, if you will do that, you will find that you will not only have friends, but you will be respected by many people. And, and our societies is only as strong as our relationships. So when we see things that are inappropriate, it's okay for us to talk about it. It's okay for us to say, I saw this or I witnessed this today and brainstorm it with us as parents, come to us and we'll come together with a way that we can help and support individuals. And I think that's something that we can intentionally do is not just not accept bullying, but we can be promoters of healthy relationships.

That's so profound. I love it. Okay, well, before we conclude, is there anything that either of you would like to add on to our discussion? today.

I think the only thing I might add in is, you know, we talked about generally bowling and usually we, we always spend a lot of time talking about the kids who are being bullied. Um, but I wanted to take a little bit of time just to really talk about the kids who we find are the bullies and, you know, and, and making sure, cause sometimes, you know, that might make you feel like, oh gosh, I'm a terrible parent. How did I let my kid, like, have this happen? Like, where feels even worse, right?

If I- well, no, that's way worse, you know?

And just normal life, like, listen, this kids are, they're playing out many, many different uniforms right now. Um, and we are there to say, hey, okay, well, this happened. Doesn't make you a bad kid, but it wasn't a good behavior. So let's change the behaviors because it's, it's just, it's a behavior. and if we can just think of it that way without shaming or blaming or making them feel humiliated, you know, I think that's a key piece to remind parents. You know, the second one is, is, you know, what is the consequence? And there should be a consequence. And I talk to parents a lot. The consequences should always fit the crime in a way, and they should be a set consequence. Now you're done, and this will be the consequence that happens again. and staying consistent with that, you know? And then when there's consequences in multiple settings, like get on board with that, you know, if the school had the consequence, you're like, well, that was harsh. So I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to, you know, have any consequences or what happened. But no, we all have, again, here comes the community. We all have to stand firm and say, this, this behavior is not acceptable. Okay? These are the, these are the global consequences in all, all the settings of your life. okay? And that they're gonna end. And then we're gonna work on correcting and making sure those behaviors don't happen again. And this is how we're gonna do it in a very kind of matter of fact way.

Right?

And, you know, the key piece is, you know, not to humiliate, not to judge these kids. They're gonna make mistakes. We still, I still, we all still make mistakes. It's okay. We're learning from them. But my goodness, parents, please don't beat yourself up over it. Okay. The only thing you could not do right would be to ignore it. Honestly.

I love that because as parents, we're imperfect. We ourselves may be guilty of saying or doing things that are not appropriate or unhealthy for our child. And I think there's a part of this of just recognizing weak to concourse correct. I should let me have a do over the way I said that was inappropriate. And maybe let me try again, or maybe I overreacted to something that you shared with me. I think there's this part of us just recognizing I can do better. And I think even in that acknowledgement, it helps them understand that we can course correct and we can all work to improve our relationship skills.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I think important lesson is to teach kids that we can all make mistakes and we can also apologize and self-correct.

Yeah.

I think that reminds them that, you know, I don't have to always get this right every time.

Yeah, we just released a podcast on shame, and I think when we're trying to create an environment of perfect behavior and perfect interaction, then that's where shame can come in. And so I love what you're saying. Actually, the best course of action, the most important thing is to teach them the skills to say, I'm sorry, I made a mistake to name behavior that they wish they wouldn't have done instead of ignoring it or pretending like it didn't happen. or in ourselves behavior that we regret. The best way to confront that is say, you know what? I'm not perfect and I wish I would have done this differently. That is actually better than pretending to be perfect. And because it's removing all the shame.

Yes.

This has been so fun to sit here and learn from you. I have so many notes that I've written down.

And thank you, Dr. Melissa, for taking time to be with us. Really enjoyed your ideas and your feedback and your suggestions. Really helpful. Thank you so much.

Well, thanks for the invite. It was fun. It's always like to chat about some of these important things and Dr. Schatz is always nice to see you.

And good to see you.

You've been listening to Finding Noble. I'm Carly Redd. Follow Finding Noble on all available podcast directories and find out more on our website. FindingNoble.com that's FindingNobleN-O-B-L-E.com and if you or anyone close to you are looking for further resources on young adult and adolescent mental health, Dr. Skinner and a host of other leading professionals working in the mental health world share courses and even answer your questions all on ParentGuidance.org that is ParentGuidance.org brought to you by the Cook Center for Human Connection.