https://www.listennotes.com/e/6d72187f7c424f4491fbe22f09c29365

Welcome to Finding Noble, a podcast where we climb into the world of young people's mental health and where we provide support for the adults who support them. I'm your host, Carly Red. Welcome to another episode of Finding Noble. Today we are embarking on another Ask a Therapist question and answer session with Dr. Skinner. But today's edition will be a little bit different in that we are discussing suicide awareness specifically. So a suicide awareness edition of our Ask a Therapist format. And we would like to discuss what parents or someone who has influence over children, teens and young adults should know about suicide and suicide ideation. And Dr. Skinner is a wonderful, wonderful person. to ask questions to concerning this. I know, Dr. Skinner, you have often taught seminars and courses on this.

Yeah, so first, hi, Carly, it's good to be with you again. And yeah, so the element is, it kind of just happened as I was working on a project and when you've seen individuals in your office who've lost loved ones to suicide or you are working with individuals to help prevent it. and working in the community, everybody knows there's somebody who's lost somebody. It seems like everybody knows somebody. And so a few years ago, I was asked to be a part of a group of people who were just talking about suicide. I was invited to do some presentations for some school districts, both here and in Idaho. And so it's been a great opportunity to just be able to spread the word of how we can increase the awareness to help individuals who it may be at risk and, but also to help family members know how to respond if family members are dealing with suicidal ideation. And so getting support has been really one of my primary goals to help inform people if we can prevent even one suicide. And then one more, I had an opportunity with the Cook Center, we did a suicide awareness session at a big, huge auditorium, the thousands of people there talking about suicide awareness and prevention.

Wow. Good work. I like what you said, even if it prevented one person or helped one person.

Yeah.

And that's kind of our hope today as well.

Yeah.

And I'm looking forward to this conversation even as difficult as it is, Carly.

Yeah. Okay, let's jump right in. So the first few questions right here, who is at risk of suicide? Is my child at risk? And what are warning signs we should keep watch for?

So I think in today's culture, we will often think, well, it's probably not my child. But let's just start off with a reality. If I was to pull a hundred people, probably nine out of ten will have had a thought of wanting to die.

Wow.

Right.

So, so there's a difference between I'm ruminating on it and it's in my mind and having a thought. I personally have had that thought throughout my life multiple times. and I always pause and it's such a fascinating thought that that thought comes into my mind.

Right. It's true.

Right.

So I, it's not something I'm afraid of. It's just a curiosity at this point of like, wow, what's happening around me to even this thought to even come into my mind. Now contrasting that with somebody who it's there more frequently and they're like, maybe it would be better off if I was gone.

Yeah.

That question of, Is it the world better because I'm here or is it better because I'm not here?

Right. And so those who are at risk who are usually individuals who can't shake the thought, who have it consistently with them. And then what happens in some situations is they have an experience that reinforces it. It could be if you're a teenager, it could be somebody bullying you. It could be a girlfriend or a boyfriend breaking up with you. It could be a fight with a family member. And so those at risk are individuals who've had that experience, the thought, and may have an experience that overwhelms them. And sometimes they will, without even thinking, and this is one of the things that they found, most adolescents who complete suicide do so within an hour of a major event occurring.

I was actually going to ask that the timeline from when an individual decides when they complete suicide.

And that's different than somebody who's older who might have more of a prepared plan in contrast with an impulsive behavior. And so looking at this, who's at risk? Really, there's a couple components that we talked about there. One is the impulsivity in a crisis and having accessibility. And what I mean by that is accessibility, having a gun, having pills, having, you know, some way to complete that initial impulse of thought. So, in fact, we know that guns are high risk. Most people who complete suicide, that's the number one. Number two is some kind of poisoning through drugs or some kind of medicated pills or something.

Okay.

So we look at this in this context. I'm impulsive, I'm in a crisis, and I have access. Those are where we increase the highest risk of seeing people complete suicide.

Wow. That's really disheartening to hear that it can be so quickly. So now some of the warning signs that we should keep watch for, do you have anything that maybe parents could just kind of look for? Are there days and weeks and months typically where there are warning signs?

Yeah. And this is where we have to talk about things like our social environment. Because if I've had a friend or a family member who've completed suicide, I'm at much higher risk. In fact, we all are at a higher risk. If we've had a loved one complete suicide or had a friend complete suicide. So we look at like a school and school districts, sometimes they will have a rash of suicides. And what they're finding is it's contagion. so we often want to educate and talk with our children, especially if they've got a friend or somebody close to them who's completed suicide, we want to communicate about that.

Okay, so if a family member or friend, are there any other warning signs? I'm assuming isolation, erratic behavior, anything like that.

Now you're talking about individual warning signs rather than community warning signs. So individual, yes, I can't shake depression. I'm not functioning. I feel behind, I'm not doing homework, and it's a constant state of just, I don't have the energy, and it's not uncommon for individuals in that state to feel overwhelmed to the point where like, is life even worth living at this point? So yeah, we want to look for signs. Usually we're going to look for consistent depressive symptoms. We're going to want to look at times where they just, there is no joy, they can't find joy. And the more you see that, you're, you want to pay more attention. So, as we observe that, we need to not be afraid of being able to talk about it. There is a series done by the Cook Center, My Life is Worth Living.

Yes.

If you've watched any of those, there's a phenomenal scene where this young man, he's kind of bullied because he didn't make a soccer play. He said, Dad, and his dad was busy doing something, so he left. And now his dad's really concerned. and he's, this young man's contemplating suicide and it decided not to. But then we have him coming home and we see his dad responding. And parents in that situation, we often don't know what to say.

Right.

And that's one of the things that we did in those videos, is we actually took it. And I broke down scenario by scenario of things that a father could say and what the father did say in the father's response in this. video, if you watch it, is absolutely beautiful. We can put it in the show notes, Carly.

Okay.

So they can actually watch it. It's a real animation, but it's really educational in how to communicate with a child who you're concerned that may complete or attempt suicide.

Yeah, that's good. Especially not knowing what to say, which I think is also a really important thing I want to get into here. What is the most important thing we can do as parents and as a society to prevent suicide? and I think there are a lot of factors that go into that. I know you're very passionate about those factors, the variables that may create small shifts that keep people alive. And I think oftentimes it's not even exactly what to say in the moment, but also the build up of what our homes and what our relationships look like with our children currently. And so I think maybe there's a part of me that wants to feel like I have some control over the situation, which I'm sure I don't have a ton of control. But at least to feel like I'm doing what I can in my home to discuss their mental health. I love, love what our good friend Andrea Rowley talked about with self-talk and asking our children. She's mentioned it a couple different times on our podcast. But what is your relationship with self and really getting to the inside of our child that we may not know is there kind of that side of them. that exists without us, the part that will exist long after they leave our nest, the part of them we didn't choose and can only ever influence but never control. And I think a lot of us are maybe immune to the relationship that we have or just content with the relationship that we have with our children without really looking a little bit deeper and especially having children who I know struggle with, I don't love the term perfectionism, but who have very scrupulous and OCD and very type A personalities that you wouldn't think of because who they are high functioning as well. And that may be at risk because they hold themselves to such a high standard. So even in that regard, I start to think about, okay, wow, I really want to understand what I can do to influence my children to let them know they are supposed to be here.

Yeah, and I love the way you ended that, the way that they're supposed to be here, we want them. But I think there is in a component when we interact with our children that we may not think we have a lot of influence, but in many ways we do. It's through kindness and caring and then even more difficult are the difficult conversations.

Right, right.

But not being afraid to talk about, maybe they had a peer that attempted or completed suicide. Hey, have you ever had a thought like that? Just imagine asking that kind of a question. Have you ever had that kind of a thought? And even being willing to say, I've had those kind of thoughts.

That is a hard conversation. I don't know how comfortable I would feel saying that to my child.

And here's what I did. And here's what I experienced. And now you're actually modeling for them how to go through a normalization of a difficult experience.

I love that.

And so the modeling of it is, look, this is life, and we're going to have these adversities, and we're going to have challenges, and I'm going to tell you, your life is worth living. And if you ever feel that way, ever, ever, ever feel that way, please know that I'm always here. I will never judge you ever. And I'm going to tell you, that openness may be the very thing that when they're in that situation, they're like, I can go to my mom, I can go to my dad, I can go to my friend. because we know that one of the best solutions is actually open communication about it.

Right.

In silence is where we get the greater problem when we can't talk about it. And then I am all alone and then my thoughts begin to grow and I'm better off dead rather than going to my family member and being able to say, I'm really struggling. And then putting their arms around us and saying, look, I'm here.

You matter.

I love you. and we're going to figure this out and we're going to find solutions.

This question popped up in my head, you know, the idea of the hidden cookie jar, and you tell your child, you can't eat that cookie in that hidden cookie jar way up there on the top shelf. And all they can think about is the hidden cookie in the top shelf. I know a lot of people are very afraid. I know it's been researched as well because of, like you said, it can spread like a rash. Suicide can spread like a rash that if we talk about it too much, if we bring it up, it may implant the idea into a child's head that may have never existed before. Is that a real thing?

No. In fact, it's actually quite the opposite. The fact that we're talking about it is actually empowering. And the research actually shows quite the opposite. When we talk about it, it actually reduces the likelihood of it happening. And part of it's because we're having a card conversation. You might as easily get a. No, I've never had that thought, Mom.

Well.

That'S great. I can tell you I have. You have? Yeah, I have. Well, what was going on? And now I could be open and I'd say, yeah, it was a thought. Again, we're going to have thoughts that come into our mind, but not all of our thoughts are accurate.

Exactly, yes.

Just because I have a thought does not mean that it's like that. Well, that's an accurate thought. No, sometimes we have thoughts that make no sense to us.

Yes. I especially wanted to discuss this idea of especially an adolescent, a teenager, a young adult, they're starting to create the story of their identity. And they are the narrators of that story, the story that someone narrates about themselves and their own lives. We do it innately without us, even though we do it, correct? Our minds are meaning making machines and we like to create a story around the circumstances we find ourselves in and who we are within that story. So asking our children, what is the story you're telling yourself of your own life? What is the story your children are forming? And how do we find this out? Because I think we can tell ourselves who our children think they are and the life they're experiencing. I do it all the time. Do you know how lucky you are? How many parents? There are starving kids all over the world, don't you know? And our world view of their life. is different than their worldview. And I think it takes a very intentional parent to go in and say, okay, what is that voice? And what is the narrator? What is the plot? How reliable is the narrator? And I think that's really important. Do you have thoughts on that? Yeah.

So my thoughts are, I almost, I would want to start with a concept. I want to understand their narrative, their story, but I want to do it by what I'm hearing, what I'm seeing. First, I need to think about what communication are they having with me? What are their fears? What are they saying about themselves in their own dialogue? What is about their body language? I don't fit. I don't belong. There's something wrong with me. I'm too this or I'm too that. That's the narrative you're hearing about how they're seeing self.

Right.

Contrasting that with us as parents, which we're so true. We say things like, oh, you're lucky or you're loved or you're this or you're that. they may or may not accept it because we're their parent.

True.

But the other side of that is they're speaking to themselves and it's going to come out in their body language. It's going to come out in their tone of voice. It's going to come out in how they speak about themselves and their colleagues, their peers.

Right.

It's going to come out. Oh, I'm not as smart as. I'm not smart. I'm stupid. Or I'm not good at math. Or. I'm not as popular as, or they don't like me. Those are the things that we hear. And yet that conclusion, they don't like me, that's an interesting question. How did we draw that conclusion?

I've heard this before that therapists are often referred to as story editors, right? They go in and they help people update the stories they've been telling themselves their whole life and ask those kinds of questions. Who was the person who told you that? Or where did you come to believe this thought? or this value or come to have this value, how did you come to believe this? And then just like a therapist, I feel like a parent can be this, that they can help update the bad drafts and show the gaps to their child and also show them, teach them narrative flexibility. The narration and the story that you're telling yourself is very closed. It's not omniscient. You can't see the whole picture. You can't see all that's happening. and you're only seeing one part of the story. And then also, you have to help them see that this story is only part, that this isn't the beginning of their story and this isn't the end of their story. This is just one sentence on one page and that there is so much more that will come after this. And I think, especially with suicide, that is a very important point.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more because really we're saying, as you say, it's a sentence or a paragraph. and it's this chapter of your life, this small part of it. And what you can't see, and this is one of the things that is really delaying that impulse, is what you can't see is maybe having children and having a spouse or having a spouse and having children. And what you also can't see are the job opportunities and the fun things you're going to do, whether that's playing with friends or skiing, skiing or just being together. These are the things that you can't see in those impulsive moments.

Right.

And so what we're teaching is a form of resiliency. We lean into these hard moments and really what we want to do as parents is teach our children we do hard things and we're going to go through ups and downs emotionally. And this is not unique to any of us. We all have it. That kind of adversity. And so now what we're teaching is a form of resiliency of like, look, we're going to lean into hard things. We're going to do hard, hard things in this life. and whenever we encounter those, you don't have to do them alone. And that goes back to what you were referring to a little bit earlier. One of my core approaches is the solution will almost always be relationships.

I love it.

And when we realized, look, you're struggling, we're struggling, we're a team, you never have to do this alone. And what we find is that when many people who complete suicide is they do often feel alone. They feel like, you know, somebody dumped them, somebody made fun of them, they had a fight with a family member, whatever it may be. And all of a sudden, that option comes into their minds. And once that option's in your mind and you can't get rid of it, and maybe you were already dealing with some sense of, I don't fit, I don't belong, and then it just kind of exacerbates and becomes more of a possibility. And if they could just slow down just for a little bit to let their senses catch up, they're way more likely to be less impulsive. And that's true of all of us. So we teach a resiliency skill and that is a pause button. It's what we refer to in our field as orienting. And when we orient and you actually see this in deer and you see this in wildlife, when you come upon them, one of the first things that they do is if it's deer, you'll see that they put up their ears and they don't move. They're watching, what are you going to do? And as human beings, we need to learn to do this. as well. We need to orient. We need to teach our families, ourselves to orient before we do anything fast or rash. We need to slow down and observe outcomes and think about possibilities.

I know there's a practice that you do because my husband used to tell me about it, that you would go outside, maybe in between sessions on a nice day and go take off your shoes and put your feet in the grass. Is that true?

It's absolutely true. I would go outside and get grounded is the phrase. It's actually called earthing and it's very helpful for me just to get it centered to the earth. And that may sound a little bit odd, but often I would do that. I go for a walk or I'd take off my shoes and just walk on the grass. It actually helps with inflammation in the body, but that's a whole different story. But yes, I often will do that because again, there's times in life where there's so much going on that we can get stuck in our own heads, in our own minds. and we can go into a fear state or we can go into a state of like, I don't fit, I don't belong, there's something wrong with me. And that sense of being centered is the ability to step back and pause long enough to say, I don't know the answer, but it will come. It will come.

What a beautiful tool to teach our children, especially when we're not very good at it ourselves anymore at being centered. How many of us are having our downtime or trying to recenter with some form of a screen, a scrolling screen of some form, even watching TV or movies are now scrolling a lot of the time. How much time do you spend scrolling to find something to watch on a streaming service? And I think if we really want to teach our kids that concept of orienting, of really pausing and centering ourselves, it's excluding things that are distracting us or trying to numb us from the pain, but connecting us to something that will actually nourish and fill us and help us come back to a place of equanimity, a place of harmony within ourselves and with others, that connection with others.

I like that a lot because when we do that, what happens is we feel things that we haven't felt and we experience things that maybe we've been missing out on because we've been so caught up in the, again, I think technology can create so much fear and so much anxiety. Right. And if we were to be away from that for a period of time, eliminate it for a period of time, what other emotions are we missing out on because we're so stuck in the emotions that are being created by our devices?

Oh, I love that. That is so powerful. I didn't even consider that, that we are being spoon-fed emotions almost rather than forming our own.

Which is why when we pull away from some of these devices, I mean, contrast going outside, going for a walk, being in nature, it happened yesterday. It was a beautiful day here. I walked outside and I heard birds singing. I haven't heard birds singing in a long time. Oh, it feels so good. And I walked outside and my whole.

Body was like, all winter long, we.

Haven'T heard those birds. And so all of a sudden, the senses are catching up and I feel and I'm experiencing. And if you're again, if we're in a state of constant day-to-day fear, the world's going crazy. And then all of a sudden, we're in nature and I'm with, wow. this feels different. That's why I often will take off my shoes and I will be with the earth. And again, it may sound odd to people, but there's a science behind it, but I don't do anything without a science behind it.

So we used to live in Oregon and that's very normal. It's very typical. People go walk around to Chiloquin. So I really like this concept though, of teaching our children this as well and practicing it ourselves, using our bodies as a tool to help us reconnect. I think we're so much in our mind and in our thoughts. How can we reconnect to something bigger than us? I would also love to talk about loneliness and how we can really help our children be seen and known if we can kind of go in that direction of connection for a second. We know the alarm has been sounded concerning the loneliness epidemic as a public health crisis. And it's one which we know increases the risk of heart disease and stroke and dementia and premature death. I don't think anyone would be particularly surprised to hear that loneliness increases risk-taking behaviors, particularly suicide, especially suicide. So when I say loneliness, I mean an alarming increase in people who feel unseen and unknown. We know that we can be surrounded by humans, a lot of humans, and still feel lonely. And this is because we can continue to feel unseen and unknown, maybe especially in large groups of people, because we feel like We are insignificant or detached from the whole in some way. But I would love to discuss how we can begin to start understanding the art of connection more and the skills of really seeing others and helping them be seen. I know that you talk about the core need to belong and to be seen and to be known in the work that you do. And that is a primary inherent need in every single human being and that it's a skill that we're, I would argue we aren't doing very well anymore. The, in any family or school or community organization, to see someone help them feel deeply seen and deeply known is hard and we're not doing the best job at it. But the good news is that it's a set of skills that people can learn. So I would love for you to talk more about that.

You know, I. You're. You're spot on. I don't believe our society is living in our fullest potential. And I think the reason why we're not living in our fullest potential is because we are struggling in our most important relationships. You asked about loneliness. When I don't know if I can trust people, when I don't know if I can believe people, when people have let me down, which we often in our own families and in our relationships, we often can let each other down in certain ways. It's are we repairing those or are we feeling disconnected like you don't understand and I don't belong anymore because you don't understand me. And so we've got to the point where if we're not problem solving and we don't feel safe, then we're going to experience more sense of loneliness. And so when peers don't feel like their peers are inviting them to activities or when I feel like I've been left out of a family event or a family activity, same concept. like people just don't understand me. They're not listening. And when you go on and you've concluded that there's something off about you, you feel that loneliness, then everything is at higher risk. Depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation, all of those things can increase. So then if we look at the other side of this, if I've experienced abuse or neglect or abandonment, I don't know who to trust. And now I will even take it a step further. If I have a higher power and a belief in a higher power and all of the humans have let me down, then I often might think even my higher power does not care. And so the purpose of life, everything that is good is built upon our most important relationships. And when loneliness, when abuse, neglect, all of those things are happening, I no longer feel safe. I don't feel connected, I feel lonely, and that's where I am likely to engage in behaviors or activities that put me at high risk. And again, the solution is going to be our healthiest relationships and being aware of it as parents, leaders, and being attuned to those who are at higher risk. If we as a society could be aware of those needs, I think we could reduce the loneliness, increase connection, and our society, it would do so much better.

That's wonderful. I had some questions, just rhetorical questions that we might be able to ask ourselves. Asking ourselves, are healthy relationships the primary focus in our home? Are they the primary focus in our education and in our instruction, wherever we're giving it? Coaches are what I'm thinking of specifically, but if you're working with any youth at all, and our healthy relationships are primary focus in our society. But I think focusing back into the home, this idea of a warm home or a cold home, I'm sure you're familiar with the Grant Study that came out of Harvard, and it was the one that they followed the 268 Harvard men over the course of their life. And what they found shocked them, even though we've all heard it before, that the quality of your relationships determines the quality of your life. But even more significantly, they studied childhood relationships, what happened in their childhood relationships, what was their home like? And warm homes contributed to successes more than IQ did or physical endurance or socioeconomic background. In a cold home, they were more likely to suffer from dementia, prescription drugs. They spent five times as much time in psychiatric hospitals. So when I say a warm home, versus a cold home. What I mean is, what were those relationships like in that home? Did they feel that safety like you're talking about? Were they able to open up and have a discussion with siblings and parents? Or was it a cold home where there was fear inside those relationships that love came at a cost? Love was conditional. Or maybe there wasn't a lot of love at all. Or maybe there was neglect and that those holds so much power. The type of home that we create holds a lot of power in how our children turn out and how an individual sees themself in their world, which is a very harrowing thing as a parent, especially now as my kids are starting to leave home. I love that I'm learning this now.

The element that you described there, a warm home, caring, empathy, awareness, Genuine love, a cold home, distant, empty, fear producing, abusive. When we look at the difference, our culture is only as good as our relationships. And our families are only as strong as we are kind and caring and loving. Because I can have a family where it's rule based, where I focus so much on the rules, that I forget to see this person in front of me has feelings and emotions and worries and concerns. And I find that when we have homes where there's warmth, we can go through anything and we can be okay. But when it's the other, as you say, cold, then we begin to feel like we're isolated and alone. Nobody's got our backs. As a therapist in my career, I can tell you over and over again when I ask people who's got your back, who's your nurturer, that's a phrase we often use, who's your nurturer? I will tell you many of my clients, they will pause on that and they will tear up and they will say, I've never had that.

That's heartbreaking.

That's why they're in my office because they've never ever had that. Now, there are people who have had that have been in my office. But my heart hurts when they say, I've never had that.

I'd like to ask another rhetorical question to our listeners. What are some of the distractions or barriers that are inhibiting connection in your home? Maybe you're not trying to create a cold home. I don't think anybody's intentionally trying to create a cold home. But what are some of the barriers or distractions that might be inhibiting the warmth in your home? Is it a primary focus on school and education? Is it sports, busy work schedules, phone use, screen time use, rules? I like that you talked about rules. What are some of the distractions or barriers that are inhibiting connection and warmth in your own home? And ask that to yourself because I think it'll probably look different based off of the value systems we were raised in. One of my favorite things from one of my favorite books, this book, How to Know a Person by David Brooks. I highly suggest it. It's the art of seeing others deeply and being deeply seen. I feel like as a parent especially, this is a fantastic read. But he talks about a therapist friend once told him the most important questions you can ask your spouse and anybody to get to know their value system is in my home growing up, one must always do blank. And in my home growing up, one must never do blank. And it's incredibly eye-opening to ask your spouse that question, to ask your siblings that question, to see if you felt the same way, but also to ask ourselves that question. What is that in our own homes? What are we doing with our own children? What is the value system that we are intentionally or maybe unintentionally saying and more importantly doing? Where are we putting our emphasis and focus on? Because I can say all the right things share all the right pieces of information. But what are we doing at home? What is the feeling, the environment, the ambiance in our home?

Yeah.

And when you do that, what happens is you begin to do what I refer to as a gain personal insight.

Right?

Because I think often we live, I don't know if the right way to say this is blindly, but we feel things, we think things, and we just, we don't pause and say, where did this even come from?

Right.

And the idea of internally looking and asking those questions in my family growing up, what was that? We must always, and the first thing that came to my mind is prayer.

Well, look at your mother. Wow.

Yes, look at my mother, right? We learned to pray in my family.

That's a beautiful response.

But that's how it was. So I learned to pray. and that, right? And so I look at that and I think, how much of a blessing has that been to me? Because prayer, whether you are a faithful religious person or not, it slows down the mind. It helps you pause and what a life skill that is, again, whether we're religious or not, that concept of pausing and reflecting and in many cases giving gratitude, look at my life and I think that's had a big influence on my life. So when we look at this and we ask those types of questions, I love the way you're asking questions today, Carly, because it really helps us reflect on how did I see this? How do I experience this? And how do I want my children to experience this and me and us? Anyway, I think it's beautiful.

From a previous podcast, you talked about being on autopilot and a lot of our lives are on autopilot. We're surviving. It's hard to survive. It's hard to keep ourselves alive and our kids alive. and that is our primary focus a lot of the time is how are we going to keep everybody alive? How are we going to make sure everybody has clothes and food and making sure they can get out the door to the things they're supposed to get out that our society tells us they need to be doing and that we feel like are good things too. Just the survival aspect of it is a lot. And so if we find ourselves in autopilot, I think we definitely need to offer compassion and grace because just keeping people alive alone is very difficult. And I think any newborn, a parent of a newborn can empathize with that. Oh yeah, this is hard just to keep another human being alive is hard. But when we pause, like you said, the power of the pause, it seems to come up a lot in what we're talking about and reflect, where did these value systems come from? It's really interesting. I don't know if I'll use this as we edit, but we were talking to my husband and my beautiful mother in law. and he was talking about how sports were such an emphasis in his home growing up. It was one must always be good at sports and one must never be bad at sports a lot of the time, which is fascinating to me if looking from the outside because his dad has a PhD, his mother has a master's degree. They're very intelligent, also very spiritual people. They're very family oriented people. There are a lot of things that they've equipped their children with that have made them high functioning, incredible adults. I'm so lucky to be married to one of their children. But as we were discussing this recently, Eric's mom, my husband's mother, talked about how their dad grew up on the oil rigs of Louisiana. And for him to get out of the poverty that he found himself in growing up and to find a better solution for his life, sports were his way out. Adding sports to his education was his golden ticket out of the circumstances he was in. And so he found himself putting that onto his children too, that value system. Sports mean a lot because you can rise above anything. You can rise to the level that you want because it helped me do the same. And he did. I mean, sports got him out of where he was and he became an incredible player at Rice University and then went on to get his PhD in mechanical engineering and taught for 40 plus years. But hearing them talk about this, it was just this, it just blew everything open. It blew the whole world open and like, oh, no wonder, because it's carried down into my children as well. There's a huge emphasis on sports still. And we've talked about it on this podcast a lot where it's like, where do these values come from and why are we talking about this so much? And it's because they came from somewhere. It didn't come from somewhere bad. It came from somewhere. Credible. But do we still need to carry that heavy emphasis with us in everything that we do? Right? That was a very long way of getting to questioning, where did this come from? Where did these thoughts, where does this value system, why does our home feel this way? Why have we created this value system within our own home? Yeah. What did you call it? Self what?

Self reflection or self attunement?

Self attunement.

Well, I like that. I love the concept of attunement because when we're misattuned, like if a piano isn't tuned, it's mistuned.

Oh, that's good.

And when we are a tuned, we sound better because we're aware, we have that self-awareness where we can understand ourselves and why we do what we do and why we're thinking it. And sometimes we might not get the answers instantly, but because we ponder and we reflect, we begin to get more personal insight and more awareness. I again, I think our society is much better off when we have personal awareness and personal insight into our thoughts and our feelings. And even interesting, there's a book called It Didn't Start With youh, which is a fascinating book. It's absolutely lovely book. But it talks about a concept that we pass down what's referred to as cellular memories. And so we pass down cellular memories from generation to generation. Now, notice what I said, cellular memories. So you could actually be feeling feelings that your grandparents or great grandparents had that are not even yours. They were inherited.

Oh, that's heavy.

But it's real. And for some people, this may ring true. They found that it lasts for three to four generations that we pass down cellular memories. Interesting phrase, three to four generations. So as we look at this, and they actually got this from Holocaust survivors, and they found that some of the Holocaust survivors for up to three or four generations are carrying some of the traumatic wounds that occurred during the Holocaust. And so it makes sense to me that we have, I've seen clients, they have emotions, anxieties, worries, even suicidal ideation going back to our theme today, that it doesn't make any sense to them. But sometimes we have emotions that we can't make sense of that may not be ours. They may be generationally old.

So what do you suggest? How do we disentangle ourselves from the heavy and hard traumas from our ancestors.

Well, I would also look at it the other way. We also inherited their strengths, their goodness. So I would want to give a language to those experiences. And if it doesn't make sense, it may not be mine. And so when we look at emotions, anxieties, depressions, and even suicidal thoughts or ideation, we might need to just pause and say, what is this? Where is this coming from? And it may be situational in this moment. and it might also be something that we've inherited.

I really like this concept of the language that we're using because it kind of ties back into this idea of story and the story that we're telling ourselves. I love this quote from Esog Desin or Karen Blixen. She said, All sorrows can be born if you put them into a story. I firmly believe that if we can go back and say, where did this come from? How is this happening? This life story, not only does it give us so much compassion for the people who've gone on before us, it gives us compassion with ourselves. And then it gives us the ability to make changes or shift or modulate to something we might care about more now, or we might want to put inside our families now, going back to that home that we're trying to create, the warmth in our home that we're trying to create. How do we do that? And I think the story, the narration, talking to our kids about the story that they're personally narrating themselves right now and asking them, what are you experiencing in our home? What values do you feel are most important in our home? And even asking them, when do you feel most connected as a family? When do you feel most connected to me? I asked this to my daughter this last Sunday. We decided to stay home for Sunday dinner. And typically we'll go to all of our extended families, one side or the other. We have many aunts and uncles and grandparents, and we're very fortunate. But that's how we typically spend our Sunday. And this time we stayed home as a family, just the six of us. And she just mentioned how much she loved being home with just our family. And I asked her why, and she said, I loved just playing the games. She loved the laughing. She loved eating. And she even said, I love cleaning up after making food and treats. But I think it goes back to she feels seen when we're all together as a family. She feels seen and known. and not just by her parents, but also by her siblings, too. She has a couple siblings that are quite a bit older than her, and they get to spend good time together. And I love that she told me that. When do you feel most connected? She said in those moments when we stayed home as a family, which is not something I would have naturally picked up on. So I think that's a great question we can ask our own kids. When do you feel most connected? When do you feel the most warmth in our home?

What are we doing?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, lastly, before we wrap up here, we've talked about this in part, but I wanted to bring up this concept of accompaniment. You've talked about Attunement, and I think this is very similar. Let me read it here with David Brooks. Here we're most familiar with the concept of accompaniment in the world of music. The Pianist accompanies the singer. They are Partners making something together. But the accompanist is in the supportive role. subtly working to embellish the beauty of the song and help the singer shine. The accompanist is sensitive to what the singer is doing, begins to get a feel for the experience she is trying to create. Accompaniment is a humble way of being a helpful part of another's journey as they go about making their own kind of music. I love this concept so much. I actually used to accompany choir. I was asked to do it. I didn't really want to do it. and it was really scary for me and just on the piano. I would accompany on the piano. But something would happen when we would start doing it together. When I would do the intro and then everyone would start singing, there would be this symbiotic, synergistic, connective energy that would happen between us as I would play and they would sing. There was a family behind me that had the voices of angels. Mother and her daughters, and they would sing beautifully and honestly comfort me as I was nervous. accompanying them. And it was just this beautiful moment where there was harmony. And I think when we're talking about the kind of people who can accompany in the home, in our families, and in relationships, it's established off of principles of patience and listening and being at their pace. When I'm accompanying someone, I'm going at their pace, you know, and we can kind of feed off of each other, but particularly with our children, going with them, following their dynamic from a toddler to a teen, following them and being at their level. Also, I think it means finding the joy in it, the play in it, right? When we accompany someone, we're with them in the present moment, and that can also result in great play that people, when they play, they are more fully human than they ever are. They relax into themselves.

Mm-.

And then if that results in laughter, the laughter through play, I think is one of the highest forms of connections, a feeling seen. And then obviously this idea of being present, showing up with your whole body, listening with your whole body, being a witness to what someone else is experiencing. We all know that we're not supposed to listen with the intent to respond, but to listen with the intent to hear. To say, I see you going back to this concept, I see you, you are known. Right? I see you, you are known and being a witness to them, whether they are in pain or whether they are in joy. But we are there and I'm saying, I see you. And if you are in pain, I feel pain. And I can see this is hard for you. And that honestly alleviates a lot of the pressure we feel as parents to be perfectly wise in the moment. I think if we show up and we're there and we're present and we accompany someone, we're there at their level. with our full body and be with them. Sometimes that's all they need. In fact, that might be the best way to support someone who might be in pain or has fear or has just the overall feeling of nobody knows I exist. The world doesn't know that I'm here right now.

I love the way you said that in another way of saying it. We're in harmony.

In harmony, yes.

Beautiful way of. Anyway, just. I love the way you said that, because when We really look at the best solutions for almost all of our mental illnesses, intimacy, connection, human connection is the best antidote we have.

Right.

It really is. It will always be better than appeal. It will always be better than a thousand things. Human connection is the best solution that we can have, especially when we look at the challenges in our culture. more connection we have, the better off we are.

I love that. I love that idea too, of being attuned or accompanying them as they tell their stories, that by listening to them tell their stories, attuning with them as they're telling their stories, we pick up on a lot, like you said, their tone, their body language. And then we're giving them an opportunity to see themselves as something bigger, more relational. And Walt Whitman says, We are not one, but we are many or something. I contain multitudes of this beautiful concept that we are more than just alone. We are so many. And if we can attune and accompany and be with our children as they tell their stories, just think how much more gracious and compassionate and large they will make of their life rather than a small moment in time.

Yeah.

And so as we teach them, they're the author of their story. and every once in a while we get the opportunity to go in and help them edit.

Yes.

And help them understand who they really are. And that concept of who they really are, they're incredible, they're wonderful, they're beautiful, and everybody needs to have that kind of love in their home where they know who they are.

That's so good. That's so good. Well, I hope this has been really helpful to people today. I know that it might be different than just the X, Y's and Z's of what to say and what not to say when you experience or or learn of a child's suicidal ideation. But what would you say as we close up to the parent whose child has already attempted or threatens to attempt suicide? Maybe they've experienced suicide.

First of all, you're not alone. There's, in our culture, this is a common thing. So reaching out, getting support, there are many organizations that their whole purpose is to support individuals who've lost loved ones to suicide or that are at risk. And so it's really finding a community of people who genuinely care and are able to provide support. And then the other part of it is just recognizing we can't always control outcomes, but we can control how we are with others, how we interact with them. Hope, resiliency, teaching them we do hard things, loving them. These are some of the solutions we've talked about today. And when we do it again, we're not perfect. We're not going to be perfect. So we don't judge ourselves. We just do the very best we can with the knowledge we have and then we work to increase our knowledge.

Thank you. Thank you for saying that. And we, like you said, we'll link down below to different resources that we have access to and that may help you. Could you name some off the top of your head? Yeah.

So my life is worth living. We referred to that earlier. That is a really good one. And then if we go to Parent Guidance, there's a whole session and they're on from the Hope Squad. Founder who did went on helping parents talk with children about suicide. Those are just some of the resources that are available for more education and information.

Okay. Thank you, Dr. Skinner. We're so lucky to have you on today. And we are excited for more episodes with you guys on Finding Noble. You've been listening to Finding Noble. I'm Carly Red. Follow Finding Noble on all available podcast directories and find out more on our website: findingnoble.com that's findingnobleN-O-B-L-E.com and if you or anyone close to you are looking for further resources on young adult and adolescent mental health, Dr. Skinner and a host of other leading professionals working in the mental health world share courses and even answer your questions all on on parentguidance.org. That is parentguidance.org brought to you by the Cook Center for Human Connection.