https://www.listennotes.com/e/ad1795a4b0a9425d8c65a974825eb8ed

There's something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh. Something surrounds you.

Welcome to the Human Intimacy Podcast, Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Michaelis. Marianne, how are you today?

Hi, Dr. Skinner. grateful to be here. I just got back from a hike and I am grateful for the air and the sunshine and grateful for this conversation that we're going to have today and the importance of our topic.

So our topic today is related to a topic we talked about recently, forgiveness. Except for in our recent podcast, we were talking a lot about forgiveness in terms of relationship forgiveness. But what we really didn't have time to delve into is today's topic, and that's self forgiveness. We often find as clinicians that our clients really struggle with a lot of shame, things that they wish they would have done, would have, could have, should have, didn't. And now there's a lot of internalization, why didn't I do this? And so we're gonna be talking a lot about this concept of self forgiveness in that context, but also when you've been engaging in behaviors that you're not proud of. That could be a person who's acting out, or it could be the person who's angrier than they've ever been and they feel ashamed of their anger. So really a couple of different directions there. We want to delve into self forgiveness today. We're glad you're with us.

So glad you're all here. And I just want to start out as we're talking about this. I know that recently we've been talking about some of these bigger topics and, and for our audience, for our listeners, every time we get finished, we're like, oh man, we could have gone six different other directions with this and we could have gone so much deeper. And so I'm grateful. as you shared this introduction of we've talked about forgiveness and then we've talked about shame and now being able today to really step in and start looking at what about that internalized shame with the forgiveness of maybe I can do the forgiveness stuff with other people, but being able to forgive myself, that's a really hard topic for many of my clients that I see. You know, I can work it out with other people, but we often carry around this internalized shame that we're not ready to let go of, even of giving ourselves grace.

And I find that in many of my clients, they've been carrying this burden for sometimes decades, almost as if it's a, what's the best way to put this? It's like this badge of courage in some ways of like, I have to carry this burden, right? I deserve it. There's not, you know, I've done so many things or I've done this wrong. And if I, in fact, if I don't do it, I'm sure that I'll probably start either acting out or I'll go back to that behavior. And so we see this idea of I have to carry this burden. It's mine to carry and nobody else can help me.

Yeah.

I think about my own religious history or just my history and my faith. And I know that there's an idea that I was taught that said, if you make mistakes, you never talk about it. you never need to talk about it. It's between you and God once it's resolved. And I've also heard, well, other people shouldn't remember it once you confess, once you've, you know, repented or done whatever you need to do to reconcile. But you need to always remember it. You need to always hold on to that. And I think today we're talking about how do you, how do you get to that place where you let go of it? where you don't carry it anymore, where you don't need it anymore. And maybe that's the, maybe as we begin this conversation, looking from an IFS model, internal family systems model, I think my first place in looking at this might be to say, what is it that not forgiving myself, there's a part of me that says, no, you can't forget this. No, you have to remember this. No, you need this. It would be to really start slowing down and looking and saying, yeah, what's the purpose of this?

Well, and the answer to that question, if I was taking it from a client's perspective, is it keeps me from either acting out or it keeps me from going back to that previous behavior that I don't want to do. And so the difference there is many times when it's carried, we internalize it, as you say, and then comes the negative cognitions. Something's wrong with me. I'm not like other people. If people really knew what I was like, they wouldn't want to be with me.

Can we back up though for just a second, Dr. Skinner? What you said is really interesting to me and I just want to clarify. I don't know if I agree and I'm wondering if you do because we're talking about here's what a client might say. Does me carrying this with me and never letting it go does it actually protect me? Does it keep me from doing that thing again? Because that's, that's the idea. That's the belief we have. But I want to just make sure, especially for our listeners, I think, I don't think that it keeps me from doing it again just because I'm carrying, I mean, just because I'm carrying a 500 pound load of rocks with me, dragging it with me. I don't know if that's true that that keeps me from not doing it again or does it? What do you think?

No, I, I think the evidence is, is that it actually promotes you doing it again.

Oh, say more about that then.

So I really do believe that the idea or the concept is if I feel guilty enough, if I feel bad enough to shamed enough, then it's going to prevent me from going back there. I think it actually makes us more anxious. And I think what many times when people are acting out, they feel anxious and it's really a part of a cycle. If I was looking at it as a cycle, it's I start to feel this shame for my behaviors. And then when I feel shame, what do I do with that? I feel more anxious. And when I feel anxious, what do I do with my anxiety? Well, I act out.

Okay, so here's where I'm connecting with that in the book. It didn't start with you by Mark Wolan talking about generational family patterns. He talks about when we don't let go of things, he talks about how we stayed tied to them. And so he talks about somebody who's been divorced and they're bitter and that bitterness and that hate and anger that we have or the animosity towards our ex. actually keeps us tied energetically. We always have that, we're tethered there. And I think as I was hearing what you were saying, that's what came to my mind. So you're saying we remain tethered to this and it keeps us in the cycle then.

In the cycle and that's how I've seen it, right? Because I think if I, the fear is that if I let go of this, then I will be, I'll justify my behaviors or I'll act out again. Well, the reality is, is if you're continually acting out, and this is the example that we're giving, then that unwillingness to move forward and forgive self might be part of what's keeping people stuck because it keeps you in a mindset and not just a thought process physiologically. I really believe that shame is a physical element that is inside of us. And so you carry that shame with you physiologically. I have seen clients, it's almost like there's a weight upon them.

Like they're carrying bricks. Yeah.

Yeah.

And so I think I'm what I'm hearing, like the essence of what you're saying, it sounds like you're talking about our clients are carrying a fear of themselves. I'm afraid of what I will do. I'm afraid of myself, really.

What would I be like? What would I be like if I didn't have this barrier protecting me?

Right?

Yeah.

And so what they're not able to see is a freed self, a self that's not carrying the burden, not carrying the rocks. And so when you carry that burden, it becomes very weighty. And I think that's part of what creates this anxiety. So when you ask somebody, can you see yourself feeling a different way? Can you see yourself thinking a new way? I can't. I've never ever thought outside of this, I have to carry this.

Yeah, can I, I want to do a little comparison and contrasting here. What I heard you say is, what would I feel like if I didn't have this? The way, like the tone of your voice, what I heard is like, I need this. I've got to carry this with me. And I also, as soon as you said that, my brain flipped to, What if we said it like, what would I be like if I didn't have this? It's the exact same question. It's just the inflection of the energy. Can I imagine? What would I be like? Can I imagine not having this with me? It's a lightness. It's an openness. It's not the bricks. And it's really the way that we're looking at it.

And I want to put a shout out to my group members who I've been having this conversation with. 'Cause I've been having a conversation with individuals who've been clean for a year, two and three and working on four years. And I mean, I wish our audience could hear the dialogue, the way they describe this free-ing feeling. Like, I haven't felt this way. Sometimes it's decades that I haven't felt this, may I say, light?

Yeah.

And so that forgiveness, it does, you have to incorporate that into your healing process. Learn to forgive, to move forward, because if not, you're gonna be carrying the burden of your shame. Like, why didn't I do this? Why did I wait so long? I often hear that phrase, what took me so long to wake up?

Yeah.

You know, Dr. Skinner, what I'm hearing with this is we're talking about that fear of self. I'm afraid of who I will be, what I will be if I don't have this with me. I look at the other side of that and say, this is really about self trust. And when we're doing recovery work, I love to look at recovery and say, what does recovery mean? We're picking up the pieces of ourselves that were lost. We're changing. And so as we're looking at, I don't know, can I trust myself with this? Can I forgive myself? Can I let go? beating myself up and can I recover that relationship with myself and that trust in myself that instead of acting out the ways that I've done before, now I have group members, now I have really healthy ways to manage my dysregulation. And so it shifts from this understanding, oh wait, I don't have to be afraid of myself too. I can build trust in myself.

And Maryann, you and I have been trained in what we call systems theory, where we look at how one part influences another part. I have found that the system has to also allow self forgiveness. Both individuals, a person who's acting out has to allow themselves to understand that I can be forgiven, I can move forward. But that also influences the betrayed partner, if we're talking about betrayal, of being able to see this person as somebody who is making progress, who is putting in effort, who are doing maybe dailies, or that you can just see that they're putting in an effort to overcome their unwanted behaviors.

Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, Dr. Skinner, because when we're, especially with alcoholism, we can look at the research, we can look at the data, and we look at in families where there's addiction, there are often roles that family members take. And, you know, there's the goof off or the screw up, and here's the one that's responsible and the one that takes care of things. And, In our systems, we may have roles. And just as you're saying, you know, I like to use the cogs of a clock or a gear when I'm talking to my clients. If I'm that gear and I change and instead of turning to the right, like I've always done, and so the whole system keeps going, if I stop or get smaller or bigger or turn the other direction, it impacts the whole inner workings of this whole system. And it can be really challenging to a family member say that we've had this scapegoat. And we've always said, oh, well, Henry, he's just like, you can't trust Henry. He's a screw up and whatever. If we're, if we're scapegoating there, and then Henry changes and Henry cleans up, suddenly that's really threatening to the whole system where, wait, if I can't blame Henry, then I might have to face some things that I might have some issues that before I was ignoring and passing them off to Henry. And it can be really hard for the whole system. And so what I'm hearing you is I'm hearing you talk about this. We're talking about internal change of our internal system, but also the ripple effects that that has coming out to our family members, our partner, our spouse. And I want to speak to that for just a second as well. I can't tell you how many times I've had a betrayed partner say, I don't know what to do. he's. He's doing things differently. Like, I know how to deal with addict spouse. I I have no idea how to. How to deal with non-addict spouse. I don't know how to respond when he's kind and nice and doesn't Gaslight me. I'm just like, what do I do here?

I find that it's harder in those situations. Sometimes it's even harder to trust.

Right?

It's almost like, wait a second. I I thought. this person, I understood, the person was gaslighting or lying or hiding, but what happens when they are showing remorse, empathy? Sometimes I find that that's uncomfortable for people because as Dr. Dispenza said, and I think he said it accurately, we become addicted to our own emotions. I've said that many times. I think systems, a family can get so used to each other's roles. And when we stop playing the role, everybody has to do a double take and say, what do I do now? What do we do here? This is unfamiliar territory where heaven forbid we might actually have to connect or we might have the option to connect.

Yeah, make that like even just a really simple example of that might be, let's look at a betrayed couple. And let's say that he's been let's say that it's been the male who's been acting out and he usually responds to things with gaslighting or defensiveness. And so the wife might rage. She might be angry, she might yell at him, she might direct all this anger and rage towards him and he responds and that's part of their cycle. And then he stops and he starts to own, yeah, you're right, I did that. And then she's got all this anger. stuck and she's like, well, wait, I'm ready to yell at you. I'm supposed to yell at you. I had a client who in this exact situation, I said, well, is he doing, is he expressing empathy? Is he doing this? And she's like, yes, I hate it when he does that.

Because then I can't yell at him.

I hate it when he does that. She couldn't yell at him anymore. And she's like, but how do I get all my anger and frustration hurt out? Because that was her channel.

But now he's not defensive and fighting back. And so there's nothing to fight with. And to that couple, you know what I would want to say? That voice still needs to be heard, right? She may, in that moment, she may need to continue to express it. And if he can hold her in that, then we have both partners healing because he's finally in a space where he can hear it without it overwhelming his system.

Yeah.

And, and she might actually feel heard for the first time.

Yeah.

And, and let's keep, let's stay with that couple for just a second. And when she's yelling at him, when she's raging, when she's calling names, he might be hitting a place where he's like, yeah, you are right. yeah, you are right. I have done that. And that does take bring us back to that topic of how does he forgive himself for, for doing what he's done?

And I'm going to tell you what I tell my clients, my group members. I want you to be confident. A betrayed partner actually wants confidence. They don't want arrogance. They don't want you to make it seem that it's not, flower it. They want the reality. And if you're doing well, then you're doing well and you need to be confident in that space. And that's what I tell my clients, look, if you're doing the work and you're doing the things that show your recovery and you're starting to see that progress, again, that's not an arrogance. It's like I believe in what I'm doing.

It's that self-trust that we're talking about.

Right. And when you have that Marianne, then if you're not showing confidence, then really what you're showing your spouse is that you don't trust yourself. You don't trust the recovery. You don't trust what you're doing.

So that fear of the self that we were talking about earlier.

Right.

And so part of recovery, and again, it's not an arrogance. It's a genuineness. Like this is the real me.

I love how we're just like, you're a sentence and I'm a sentence. We're just adding on here. But as we go, this is new neural pathways that are being created. And what does it look like when I can say, yeah, that was me, but that's not me. And I don't have to be stuck in that anymore. And I can be different and I can trust myself and I can be confident with where I'm at. And, yeah, I.

And.

And maybe that is where I'm taking responsibility. Yes, I did that. That's not who I am anymore. That's not the way that I'm dealing with things anymore.

Yes. And so now. I want to shift gears. Is that okay if we shift gears?

Sure, yeah, let's shift gears.

All right, now let's shift gears to self-forgiveness for the betrayed partner.

Okay. Where do you want to go with that?

Here's where I find the deeper stuff. For months, years, decades, I bought into a lie. I was gaslit, didn't know it, and so there must be something wrong with me. Yeah, I was duped. I must be stupid. If others knew, they wouldn't stay. And so the internal dialogue, I can't forgive myself for not taking action when maybe I felt something, but I didn't know what to do. And so the internalization is, I must be messed up. So my stupid.

My trust meter's broken.

I don't even trust myself and forgiving myself. And then we add to that. Now I'm angrier than I've ever been. I'm doing things that maybe I've never done. I'm taking risks. I'm doing things that in some ways make me feel out of control and I don't like who I'm becoming. And that too is an element and a need for self forgiveness.

Yeah.

You know, as we're talking about this, I'm thinking about a previous client that I had that She hated her body. She literally hated her body. And from my perspective, her body was fine. But she said, I have this cellulite on my legs. And she was a little bit older, but she, she hated. She just abhorred her legs. And she'd talk about it in session a lot. And part of the conversation we had one day was, you realize that this cellulite on your body, that this fat on your body that you have, it helped you get through. what you went through. It was there to get you through these really horrible, awful, hard times your whole life that we've been working on. That is how you've. It's part. It's been part of how you survived. And I'll never forget just the tears. Just the copious tears as you broke into tears and realized, oh, I've been hating myself for so long and not realizing that this was my body trying to take care of me.

And the concept you described there, hating upon myself, a dislike, a disdain, something's wrong with me, I'm stupid. And then I don't trust myself. That concept of self forgiveness, in fact, I don't even know if it's fair to say self forgiveness there, but boy.

It is more a self acceptance, maybe.

Yeah, it's almost like I have to accept that I did the best with what I knew and what I had and what information I had. And if I, in hindsight, I could have maybe, possibly done something, but you still may have been gaslit, you still may have been lied to. And so that perception that somehow if I would have, it would have been different.

I would have, could have, should have.

And now we introduce that concept. I talk about in my book, Treating Trauma from Sexual Betrayal, the concept of locus of control. That somehow we think that we can control things, we can influence things. And the locus of control concept is we have to recognize what we can influence and what we cannot influence. and we're actually healthier when we recognize where I can have influence and where I cannot have influence. Because when you try to influence something and have control over something you can't have influence over, you're going to be depressed, you're going to feel anxious, you're going to feel like you're a failure because you internally think I can influence an outcome. And unfortunately with people acting out, You can't influence and you can't control whether they're going to act out or not.

And I would just amplify that to say with humans, you can't do that. I mean, whether it's acting out or whether it's just other humans, we can't always influence or predict even what they will do. And I love what you just shared. If I frame it in a recovery framework, oftentimes that's what we're looking at in a 12-step type program where we're looking at surrendering, saying, I can't do this. And so I have to let it go, just like you talked about from frozen in our last podcast. But I have to be able to say, this is bigger than me. I can't do anything about it. And here it is. It's happened. It's where we are right now. And so I can either add it to my pile of rocks that I'm dragging along with me, or I can choose to very openly, how do I say maybe systematically, consciously, I think is what I'm saying. I have to be very intentional and very conscious of saying, I am letting this this go. I am surrendering this because I can't do anything about it. So I'm going to mentally let it go. And sometimes that we visualize, like, an energy transfer, or we can visualize doing something to let it go. But there is a power that comes from accepting this is where I'm at, this is what I can't do, and I do need to release it somehow.

And that goes back to the concept of feeling free. from a burden that you've been carrying.

Yeah.

Can I bring in, I just want to bring in a tool that might be helpful for our listeners.

Yeah, please do.

So I think if I were sitting in my office talking with the client about this and we were talking about like this feeling that I've got that I'm not enough that I've been carrying around, I would probably invite my client to use some bilateral stimulation just to tap on their, on their legs or on their alternating shoulders. And I'd ask them just to really notice in your body, where do you feel that? Where do you feel that sensation? And oftentimes my clients will say, it might be in my chest, it's really tight, or it's in my stomach. Oftentimes it's in the Torso somewhere, not always, but sometimes. And so I'd ask them just to sit with it, just to notice it, to explore it. Sometimes to say, what shape is it? How big is it? What temperature is it? Is it Pokey? Is it or or to say, is there a metaphor that you can come up for that? So does it feel like a big, huge lead weight in my gut? Or does it feel like butterflies? So when I can help my brain connect with this feeling, this sensation, that's a. It's a felt sense. If I can create, move it into something that's more con concrete, that's not abstract, then I can ask my brain, how do I want to visualize getting rid of this? And our brain's so good at this. and sometimes we can release emotions like that. And sometimes these are parts that we're working with. And so sometimes the parts aren't ready to leave. No, you still need me. We're hanging around and. And that's okay. That's usually when we want to work with a therapist to. To do that. But sometimes just these emotions, we can use our brain and use our body to recognize what we feel, how we feel, and then to release that.

And there isn't a releasing, right?

Yes.

And that's a sign that I am moving beyond this, if it's self forgiveness or if I've been carrying this burden, if I've been carrying this weight, or I haven't been able to accept myself because I've been judgmental about myself. Self criticism is usually so hurtful. The concept of criticism, we often speak to ourselves in ways that we would never speak to anybody else. and when I see clients who are that critical of self, I invite them to embrace an idea of self-compassion because self-criticism, I can be very critical of myself. You're not this, you did this, nobody's gonna want you, you're stupid. Again, that internal dialogue, the shame, contrasting that with self-compassion, I made a mistake and I can correct and I've got to work on this and I've got to be diligent and I've got to put forth effort. but a growth mindset using a concept from Carol Dweck, a growth mindset is that if I put energy into something, I'm usually going to get a positive outcome. And that's ultimately what we're looking for here is to recognize that nothing is fixed. Our brains can change, our behaviors can change. A fixed mindset is this is just how I am. A growth mindset is I have the capacity to change and alter and move and things don't have to be as they once were. and that's a beautiful concept because with that self-compassion can come into play and I can recognize I've got room to grow and I'm not perfect and I make mistakes, but I'm putting in the effort to change because I want to be the best human being I can possibly be.

I love that. I love Dr. Skinner. We're talking about this internal work that we have to do really deep down inside ourselves to figure out what is it that I need to maybe let go of. what do I need to forgive myself for? Where do I need to trust myself more? And I. I want to just bring in one other element that I. I find it works for some of my clients. It doesn't work for all of them. But if my clients have a higher power or God, I. I think that can really pull into this space of recognizing I might be carrying this belief system with me that I might say, I don't know how to get rid of. and oftentimes when I'm working with clients, this is where they will bring in a higher power and they will visualize them handing it to God or Jesus or whatever their higher power looks like for them, or having them sit on the couch and talk with their higher power about it and see what just, just noticing what does it feel like as they're visualizing having that conversation and being loved and surrounded. And sometimes the higher power doesn't work. Sometimes it's their grandma. but finding an attachment figure who loves unconditionally, who can say, you,'re okay, because sometimes we need that validation. And when we're working on our inner stuff, it's hard to find that validation from anybody outside because it's so internal. And so finding an internal source for that release and validation, I think, can be a really important part of this component of forgiving ourselves. We do need once again, that release to go somewhere, somewhere that we trust.

And can we allow ourselves to be loved? Can we allow ourselves to receive the love, the validation, the care, the compassion that somebody else has or has had for us? See, when we can't forgive ourselves, we rarely can receive love from others. And so in truth, we're rejecting love when we can't forgive ourselves.

And when we can't really receive that love for others, that does usually keep us in those cycles that we talked about earlier.

That's right. And so let's take that a step further. I'm the person who's trying to give love and you don't feel worthy of it. You reject it. Eventually I stopped trying. I'm trying to connect. I'm trying to show you. Eventually I feel like, okay, maybe you don't care about me because I'm trying to give, I'm trying to show you, I can't do it anymore. I'm not going to do it anymore. And so now it's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy. Nobody cares about me. Nobody loves me. That is a tremendous burden.

Oh, yeah. And as you're talking about that, I can just see the ramifications as they get bigger and bigger and bigger. So the person that's trying to give that love is like, yeah, why bother? It doesn't matter. They don't care about me. And this is where we get tied into the patterns and the systems that usually like the dynamics and the dance that happen in the relationship. And suddenly we've got two people who are hurting and what they just really want is to be loved and connected with.

Yeah.

And so what this brings to my mind is a concept of really love. And sometimes we think that we give love, but actually the gift we give is allowing people to love us. and when you have been hurt, when you've been rejected, when you don't trust people, people can be loving and you don't see it, you don't receive it, you don't accept it because you think it's, it's not real.

Or one of the things that I often see in my ART sessions is when my clients are going through the trauma that whatever we're working on the first time, because they're in fight or flight, because of, of wherever they were, they see the experience through. It's like they have blinders on. They cannot see to the sides. And after they go through the first pass at working through, doing this trauma work through, usually they'll come back the second time and say, oh, my goodness, I didn't realize there were all these people there.

And.

And their word, like, they see it completely differently. So when we're in that fight or flight place, we are protected. We are in a survival place, and so we. we may not be able to see it, even if it's there. And that's pretty normal. That's a normal response.

It's really well said. And our challenge, our challenge as human beings is to be able to learn how to give and receive it. And self-forgiveness, it really, really begins with me looking in the mirror and realizing, you know, I'm not perfect, but I'm trying. I'm striving. to be a better human being. And that means there's times where I may have to course correct. That's appropriate. When I make a mistake, I need to acknowledge it. I need to be accountable for it. When I don't live in secrecy, when I open up, when I'm honest and transparent, when you can see into me, I might be afraid of that, but that is how we create intimacy. That does not happen if I can't forgive myself.

Okay, so Dr. Skinner, I love what you said, and I want to just In a couple minutes before we wrap up, just ask, how is this different from self-compassion? Because I think self-compassion is such a huge part of this, but I'm wondering, what's the differentiation between the two?

I think self-compassion is the end result.

So if I forgive myself, then I can have compassion for myself.

Right. If I can't forgive myself, then I'm not having self-compassion. And again, it requires action. I can't just forgive myself and continue doing the same thing over and over and over and over again. I need to course correct. I need to alter my behaviors and change that so I can realize I need to be a better human being. Self-compassion is being with my suffering, being with these burdens, these challenges that I'm carrying. and realize I, I'm not an awful human being. I'm not stupid or I'm not unlovable or I'm not finished, unworthy or worthless or whatever that belief is. I'm a good human being and I'm going to strive to be even better than where I've been or what I've been.

So it's not a free pass.

I'm hearing you say, oh, no, no.

Not a free pass. But it is stepping into honesty is stepping into maybe that honesty with myself of where I'm at and. looking at what I'm, where I'm going.

So if we were to put shame and we were to put self forgiveness on the other side of the spectrum, because they're not that right, same with self compassion. So self compassion, self forgiveness, right? They're gonna be very close cousins, but shame is the barrier. It's, if I'm feeling elevated shame and I'm beating the crap out of myself, the reality is, is my healing is going to be limited.

Yeah.

And it's always that shame is always a protector trying to protect me from not feeling... That's right.

That's exactly right.

So as I'm thinking about for our listeners who may be saying, okay, so how do I... What are some things I can do for this? I want to just share Kristen Neff's work. self-compassion.org She's got some fantastic, you know, you can look at it and say, I want to do a three-minute meditation. Oh, I have 15 minutes. I want to do a 15-minute meditation. She's got some very specific exercises on her website for practicing and working on this self-love, self-compassion, self-forgiveness.

And if we do that, element of looking and having self-compassion. There's times where we have to write down and identify, what am I afraid of letting this go? What is my fear in letting this go? And that's a great writing exercise. You want to do a writing exercise, go write about what your fear is of letting go of whatever burden you've been carrying.

Sometimes I'll see my clients that are afraid of, it's almost like they're a star and they're afraid of their own brilliance. like, if I. If I'm gonna be too much, I'm like, if I. If I really see myself as. As who I am and I don't have this covering, I don't know if I can handle it. There's so much brilliance, and I don't mean like a star, like a Hollywood star. I just mean, like, the. The who we really are deep down, when we can unshackle ourselves from these things, we're brilliant and. And light and. and I think sometimes that's scary. We're afraid of our own potential.

We need to get comfortable with, with that goodness that we can become of who we can become. And that's a very different mindset than I'm flawed, I'm bad, I'm horrible. I'm, nobody would want me. It is, is in contrast as we learn to love ourselves and we learn to love others. And usually it comes in that order. When you learn self-compassion if you look at Kristen Neff's work, people who have self-compassion are more likely to have compassion for others.

Yeah. So it's a ripple effect. It doesn't just shift me, it shifts everybody. It shifts how I interact, how I see myself, how I interact with myself and everyone around me.

That's right. That's right. All right, Marianne, fun conversation today. Final thoughts that you have.

You're worth letting go of whatever it is that's holding you back. I am so grateful for our listeners for being here, for the work that you're doing. I invite you to acknowledge where you are today and look at where do I want to be and give yourself love and compassion along the way.

And for me, it's increase your forgiveness for self, increase your self-compassion, allow yourself to be loved, and then be the best loving person you can be.

I love that.

All right, thank you to our listeners for your time. If you are enjoying the podcast, please share with others. Do me a favor, post it on your Facebook post and say, I've been listening to this on human intimacy. I know it's outing yourselves a little bit for listening to this, but please do it. Share. We love to have more people asking questions and interacting with us. And so please share our podcast with others. We're grateful that you're with us.

And thank you so much, Marianne, for your time. Thank you.

And laugh when you laugh. Something's around you. It's like you're shining, you're starring in the.