https://www.listennotes.com/e/fb0e5fccd24846d5a0cde9e1aabc3be4

There's something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh.

Welcome to the Human Intimacy Podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner and Marianne Michaelis with you today as we are approaching a beautiful time of the year. The seasons are changing and we're starting to see green around us. at least as here in Utah, Mary Ann, how are things for you?

You know, I was just out walking this morning here in Washington and flowers are everywhere. Like the roses are popping, trees are in bloom, it's just a beautiful time of year. So I am really excited again to be here having this conversation with you today. For our listeners, Dr. Skinner and I were just talking about how to approach our topic today. And I wish you could have heard the last 15 minutes of our conversation. I wish we'd recorded it because this is such a great topic. Are you okay if I introduce it?

Yeah, please do.

So today we're going to be talking about how we see others, specifically after when trust has been broken, specifically how we how we see others is how we interact with others. And it can be really tricky for either a betrayed partner or a partner who is betrayed. This dynamic of how we're seeing how we see the other, especially if there's been hurt and a loss of trust, it can be really difficult to say, wait a second, you're my partner, yet you've hurt me. And how do we see each other through that hurt? So glad that you are here with us for our conversation today, everybody.

Yeah, so Marianne, the reason why this topic is so important to me is the relationships that we are trying to create are intimate ones. That is what we all long for. And yet we are now living in a culture where we see things and we are afraid and we feel fear and we are worried and we hold back because we don't trust like the way that we used to. Let me give an example of this in a relationship. Okay? So many years ago, and I've shared this story a few times in different situations, but a friend of mine, we were in Orlando, Florida attending what was at the time called the Smart Marriage Conference. And it was learning how to do some premarital work and it was just a really interesting conference. But that evening we got a taxi and we went to this place where they said there was some good food and some outdoor entertainment. So we were there While we were sitting down, there was a couple that had just been married. And as they were doing the dance together, the way that they were looking at each other was just of just these incredible tears, just a connection. It was beautiful to watch, just the way they were looking at each other. And I think everybody knows that look. And I turned to my friend and I said, Where does that go? That look, the way we see each other. Now I look at 30 years of doing therapy, Marianne, and I have couples come into my office and I bet you they had a similar look when they were first wed or first together. So what happens to how we see this human being that we chose to become or get into a relationship with. What happens?

So it was your question, like, where does the shininess wear off?

Not just the shininess, how I see you. See, because I see you as a person who's fun and entertaining and fun to talk to, and I'm attracted to and I enjoy this you. And then when I see couples, It's they can't even sit by each other. They can't look at each other. They don't like each other. They avoid each other. They dismiss each other. They criticize each other. They're in high conflict.

And so your question is, how do we get there? And what I'm hearing you talk about is, or where I'm going with that, where my brain wants to go is looking at all of the tiny resentments that build. oh, you didn't put the toilet seat down. Oh, you left this out on the counter. Oh, I needed to pick up. Oh, you didn't follow through. Oh, maybe something happened where you weren't fully truthful to me. And we build. We build. And maybe we're tarnishing as we go.

This.

This perspective, this perception that we had of the other person.

Yes.

So.

So countless ways that we can. What do you want to say? Disconnect or start to see this person in a different way? But who are they? That's really one of the core questions that I hope us that we can get to today. Who is this person that you chose? And let me say it a different way, in a different context. These two same people got married and they also had a child. How do they see their child? Do they give that child the benefit of the doubt? Do they love and nurture and take care of this child until they're a teenager and then say, oh, heaven forbid, you drive me crazy. You broke my trust. You lied to me. You're not doing your homework. You're not helping around that. Oh, look at your room for goodness sake.

Yeah, teenagers are so tricky. I remember hearing years ago somebody say, you know, you spend the first two years of a child's life teaching them to walk and to talk. and the next 18 years telling them to sit down and be quiet. But yes, one of the tricky things with teenagers especially is that they look like adults. We expect them to act like adults yet their prefrontal cortex, which is their judgment, their logic, their reasoning, this isn't a good idea, it's not fully formed, that doesn't form until the mid 20s. We're talking today about, yeah, where do we lose our sight. When does my teenager become somebody to yell at, somebody to punish versus another human being that I brought home from the hospital cherishing?

Hmm. So life experiences, right? They didn't do it. They didn't, right? Something happened that broke my trust or whatever. And again, I'm trying to illustrate it in different relationships. So it's not just a relationship, it's all of our relationships, how we see this person, because we lean into the more difficult ones where there's been betrayal, Mary Ann, we see that that's what we have focused on in our careers, tremendous pain. And how do I see this person who's betrayed me?

Yeah, so especially for our listeners, part of this conversation, Dr. Skinner, you and I had earlier, as you were talking about this, my immediate response was, what are we talking about here? Because how do I see a person the same way when they have betrayed me and to be able to say, well, hold on a second. That's the person that I married. They're the person I fell in love with, that I had that look that I saw through these eyes. How do I maintain that or find that when I have been betrayed? And, and, and my question there is like, this is a trauma. How do we, how can we ask our listeners to say, hey, I want you to see this person that you married through these shiny eyes when they have betrayed you and hurt you? There's been trauma here. And trauma changes how we see things. Our brain is super predictive. Our brain's job is to predict danger and to create safety and to say, hey, I think this is what's going to happen next. And so if our brain says, hey, this person hurt me or lied to me repeatedly when it sees that person, it's going to say, hey, this is probably going to happen. I mean, that that's what our brain does. It's a trauma response. And so When I look at that partner, how do I not go, oh, I'm not sure. Oh, I'm not safe. I'm not sure if I can trust you, if I can engage or see you that way, because now I see you as the person that hurts me.

So absolutely accurate. You're going to see that person as somebody who has hurt you. That still doesn't answer the question of who they are. Their actions hurt you. That person is still a person. that hurt you? Yes, no question about it. But we still have to pause and reflect, who are they? And you're going to say, I don't know who they are. I can't tell. I thought I knew who they were, and now I've got this big question mark, don't know. That still begs the question, how then do I interact with this person? Who are they?

So hold on, so right there, I want to slow that down even more because if I'm questioning who is that person, I don't know who they are. I thought I knew them. I thought that this was a person that I was going to plan my future hopes and dreams. We will live happily ever after, whatever it is. I really thought, I have so many clients say, I did my due diligence. Like I really, really checked this out. And then they didn't turn out to be what I thought. And so right in that space, I just want to make sure that we highlight in that space, I'm doubting myself. I'm not even maybe worried about who that person is. I'm flabbergasted by who that person is, and I'm in so much pain. And what did I do wrong? I got this wrong. How did I get this wrong? And so there's a lot of internalization and self-doubt that happens even about how did I get this wrong? What else is wrong in my life?

So, Marianne, now you're talking about my internalization, my decision making. Who am I that I can make that kind of a mistake and be duped or be somehow manipulated or deceived?

And what do I do now? Now I don't even know how to move forward. Is this something for me?

So I can fight and argue with this person. I can put them down. I can ridicule. I can criticize. You lied. You deceived me. you betrayed me. You did all these things.

And so I see, yes. So now I'm putting up my walls and I'm seeing this person as my enemy. Who I can't connect with.

Right. And so that's the pattern that we see all the time. It doesn't deal with the deeper issue I'm trying to get at today. That's the biological response. Yeah. Fight or flight. Protect yourself. That's exactly the way that we're designed. But the prefrontal cortex is designed differently. The prefrontal cortex is designed to ascertain and be able to figure out and understand. And we ask questions at a higher order or a higher level. See, we're talking about the amygdala taking over there, the emotional response of the brain fight or flight. And I'm asking us to lean into a higher order of thinking. I'm not asking you to connect. I'm absolutely not saying go connect with this person. I'm asking you to ask a harder question. Who is this person? And if I don't know, I'm not going to connect. But what would happen if I did know? And that person started defining who they were and that person started understanding, I'm trying to be a better person. Can I let them be a better person?

I think there's a kind of a, not a gap, but I'm going to call it a gap for this conversation. there's a gap between when I am in that I'm not safe and my amygdala, which is my fight or flight response. My brain is all about survival is running the show. It's really, really tricky for me to be in that space and get to the space you're talking about. There's a gap there. And that's where I've got to slow down. I've got to ground myself. I've got to do some body work, some journaling. I've got to come back out of that fight or flight place so that my prefrontal cortex, that logic and reasoning part of my I've got to deal with my emotions to get to that place where I can think to say, hold on a second. I want to share as we're talking about this, one of the tools that's been really helpful for me personally with that. I remember years ago sitting in a Costco parking lot and I don't remember what happened, but I remember I was really fired up and really upset. And for me, when I'm like that, my head's kind of spinning. and I'm just trying to figure out, like, I don't know what to do next. Oh, my goodness. And I'm just, I'm in that fight or flight place. And I remember I reached out to a Facebook chat group where I reached out to some support people and just said, oh, I'm really triggered. I'm having a really hard time. And there were two questions that some, somebody asked. Might have been the same person, might have been different people. I don't know. But there are two questions that came up that were so helpful. And these are questions I fall back to when I'm in that kind of stuck place. and it's who is your enemy? And that question is so helpful for me to go, hold on a second. I am so ticked at this person. But hold on a second. Are they my enemy? Is my spouse my enemy? Actually, no, they're the person that I chose to walk through life with. And if they're not my enemy, it helps me go, hold on a second. If they're not my enemy, then how do I look at this a different way? And how do I figure out how to work together with them? The other question is what are you fighting for? Not like, why am I fighting with them? But more like, what's my purpose of where I'm going? What's my fight? Is my fight to stay in my marriage? Is my fight to figure out how to make this work? Or is my fight to demean that other person and have them be less than and to, for me to be right? And so being able to clarify who is my actual enemy here? And it might not be my husband. So it might be that the problem is the issue. And then really, what am I fighting for? Where do I want to go with this? For me, that helps me shift into like, oh, now can I see things a little bit more clearly? And so for our listeners, I share that in hopes that whatever mental cue, whatever it is that can help you to figure out how do I get from this fight or flight place where this other person is my enemy? What is it that you need to do? Is there a question? Is there a cue? Is there a reminder? Is there something that you can set up to help yourself slow down and shift? Because it is like an absolute gear shift, I believe, to get from that's that how I see my, my other from one place to the place that you're talking about, Dr. Skinner.

So I want to be cautious in two different ways here. The first one is I'm not asking you to go connect with that person. I want to be very clear there. I'm asking you to identify, am I ready to see this person in a new way? Or am I treating them and being like the enemy? Right. The anger of coming across as criticism, put downs, belittling, or the betraying. Oh, my spouse is just angry all the time, and I can't feel their pain. I can't understand it because they're always so angry. No, see a person. It doesn't mean you have to connect right now. In fact, if you're not ready to connect, it's very fair to say we're just not in that space. We're not, it's a mature thing to say, I'm going to be reasonable. I'm going to understand. I'm going to use the part of my brain that allows me to think through problems. And I'm not ready to connect right now because I don't know if I can trust you. That's a very different conversation than you're an idiot. You're unfaithful, betraying SOB, and I that's your guts. The difference is how I communicate it. And it's actually way more powerful. When I say, I don't know how to connect right now. I may my gut wants to, I don't dare. I'm scared. That's so powerful. When I hear that and I see that, that's when the betraying often hears it in a different way. So how I'm communicating, how I'm doing this, it's so much more powerful when I speak my truth without that being in that space where I'm seeing you as the enemy.

Yeah. And I, if I can just add to that, I think there's absolutely some boundaries speaking that's happening there because I might say, I'm not ready for this conversation because I need to get My own emotions in check because I need to figure out where I'm at and I don't want to say or act in a way that would be demeaning or devaluing or abusive or hurtful. And it might be that or it might be, I'm not ready to have this conversation because I feel really unsafe with you.

And that, Marianne, is how I would say how I see myself. See, I'm asking you to see how you see the other people. And again, one of the core things I'm trying to get across today is how do we see people? The enemies? Are they friends? Are they lovers? Who are they? Who is this person? And I may say, I can't tell right now. I don't know right now. If I communicate, I said, Look, because of your actions, I don't know how to interact with you right now. I don't know how. that's so authentic, that's so real. But what I can tell you is what I'm seeing, I'm scared. I remember the way that we used to laugh and play and joke. And then I don't know what to do with the betrayal. I don't know what to do with the anger. I don't know how to do this dance. I'm scared. See, this is a different way of being. In our society, we typically do fight or flight or freeze. But the more mature us is to be able to step back because if I'm, if think about it in this way, Marianne, if I'm not defensive and if I'm not angry and I'm interacting with you and I'm trying to understand you, that doesn't mean I am trying to connect or have to connect right now. I'm trying to understand you as a person, as a human being. And I may say, I understand you and I can still choose not to be with you. See, we have to give that as a possibility. I might actually see a person and see into their world and I understand and say, Our values are not aligned. Our goals are not the same goals that they were when we started this journey together. at least I'm seeing them now. When goals are aligned, then we can have a deeper level of intimacy and choose to move forward and connect. But until those are aligned, then we're going to have these differences. And the way I'm going to see you is I don't know how to interact with you. I don't know how in a way that's going to allow us to connect.

Yeah, I wanna add to this, I have my hands up because I, for some reason, I always kind of make a funnel with my hands when I talk about this, but we all have filters in our brain. And the words that you say and the actions that you do, they come from your context of your understanding of your world. And they flip through the air and they come in and they go through my filters, kind of like a colander or something. They filter through. and they make sense in my brain based on my experiences. And so there can be a word, you know, that somebody says that can be super triggering or something that somebody says that can be really funny or silly, or I associate a song with it or something. But we all have these filters just in our perception of how we see the world, how we interpret things, and it's built on all of our past experiences. and what I'm, what I think is really important as we're talking about this, it can be really tricky for me to be able to see others as they really are through my filters. Because if I've had a lot of trauma, if there is a lot of trauma, I may really need to do some trauma work before I can get a more clear picture of, of who you are.

And the same would be true if I'm dealing with addictive behaviors or compulsive behaviors, because normally then I'm all the energy's coming in and I'm not able to see others very well. Again, we need to step back and look at how we see people. We really do. And it's going to be a, in most cases, a direct reflection of how we see ourselves.

Yeah, I'm so glad you said that because we see through our lenses, we see through our experiences and our brain is so predictive. Our brain wants to say, am I safe? What's up ahead? And our brain trying to do that, if it sees somebody that's hurt me over and over and over again, it's gonna say, oh, there's that person that's gonna hurt me over and over and over again. And of course, that's how it will be filtered in because our brain wants to keep us safe. And so that is again where I see you perhaps as somebody who's going to hurt me and that's going to impact how I respond to you. And what I'm hoping as we talk about this today, I'm hoping that our listeners are hearing also a need for a lot of self-compassion in this space. because it's really hard to say. Actually, what I want to talk about with this is, is when I'm working with clients who come to me and they'll say, I hate this person, or they've got really, really strong emotions towards another person, and they see them as 100% awful and horrible and bad. It's important to me to invite my clients to give themselves permission to recognize that there is a part of them that fell in love with that person. There is a part of them that loves the good things, that loves the kindness, that loves the XYZ, whatever it is. And that could be a really helpful place for my clients to to start to shift and say, oh, I don't have to all the parts of me, all of me doesn't have to completely hate all of that person. There, there, I can maybe see some good. There are some good things. And it's, it's sometimes it's not the full window open, but it's an opening to begin seeing them as a human instead of an ogre or the enemy.

And I, I, man, there's so much to this, because when I look at how we see people, it's going to be, as you, we say through the, our Filters. But we have to do a gut check and say, our filters, I might also resent them because they may have tricked me into a relationship, my perception. They didn't tell me the truth. And so what I thought was real isn't real. But at the same time that I'm looking in a reflection on me, how did I miss this? And so when I see them, I see my mistakes. my erroneous thinking. And again, now notice how we're speaking to ourselves and that's where self-compassion comes in and compassion for others. And this is maybe a crux of what we're talking about today. I'm not asking you to connect. I'm not asking you to love. I'm not asking you to bond with this person yet, if that's an option. I'm asking you to reflect on how you're seeing them. That's really what I'm saying today. Stop and say, how am I seeing this person, how am I seeing people in general and how am I speaking to myself? How am I seeing me? That self-awareness all by itself is a self-exploratory question that you could spend a lot of time on. Because when you do that right, you're going to have more personal insight, you're going to have more awareness, and you're going to look and say, why am I. Why do I treat people this way? Why do I treat myself this way? Why am I acting the way I'm acting? If it's not the way that it's conducive to who I want to be, it's time to wake up. It's time to be the real you. It's time to step into a place where I may say, I'm going to be a loving person. Either you're going to join me or not, but I'm not going to live in the chaos. I'm not going to live in the mud and the muck and the dung. I'm not going to live in that kind of a world.

As you said, there's so many components of this and I'm hearing about self-trust and I'm really hearing you talk a lot about, and we've been talking about communication. I've heard you talking quite a bit about that, about some mature conversations, but I'm also really loving how we're talking.

About.

Living within our value system and figuring out how is it that I feel good about interacting with other people. do I feel good about shunning or belittling or demeaning or cutting people off? Is that who I am? Is that how I am? And looking at that and saying, hold on, how do I want to live my life? I'm not saying by any means, like ignoring and shutting, shutting off or pushing down or suppressing emotions, but looking and saying, how do I want to interact in a way that feels true to me. And I may have to do some emotional work with my emotions to work through the hurt, the pain. And one thing we haven't talked about, but I think is important here is grief. It's the grief of I saw you at one time where it was all bright and shiny and soft and fuzzy and so safe. and things have happened, resentments have built, there have been hurts and mistakes because both people are human, all people are human, and no person will ever get it all the way right, but nor will I, but something happens and.

We.

Shift and we change and things become unsafe. And so recognizing that at some point there are sadnesses that come up, there are emotions, there are unmet expectations, there are frustrations, there are things that we hoped for that don't turn out, there are things that we weather through life, whether it's a loss of a child, a miscarriage, big setbacks with health or whatever it may be, there's so many, so many challenges that we go through that we don't expect and we may not handle well. or the way that we wanted to, or we wanted our partner to. And there is just grief of life. We all want a fairy tale because that's what we're taught by our culture. We get married and we live happily ever after. That's what, you know, that's, that's what all the fairy tales say. But, but there is grief when life doesn't turn out how we want it to be or relationships don't. And so looking and saying, how do I grieve these losses? and still maintain being the type of person that I want to be.

And I think the work that's done there, Marianne, is that self-work that influences how I even interact with other people. It is appropriate to say, I'm just so sad. I'm so disappointed. I feel this loss of what we had. When I hear that, that's a maturity and I see two people, I mean, as I interact with couples, when I hear that and I see both partners grieving the loss of what they could have had, to me that is a maturing process where we're now aware of it, but now we get to take it to another level through that authenticity. But when I can hear and feel and see you, that's intimacy into me see. And that's what we're talking about is this transition from in the beginning, I'm very much into a fight, flight, protect, flee. That's what I'm doing. As we mature through the process of healing, then we have to see this person in a new way, a different way, a more mature way. And I need to see the anger and the frustration and the anger, whatever that is, I need to see it in a new way.

So I'm so glad you brought that up because I really wanted to go here. One of the things I've been hearing out about recently is, talking to individuals who have betrayed their spouses. And these individuals will say, well, in my wife's eyes, all my wife sees is an addict. All my wife sees is an addict. It doesn't matter. That's all they'll see. They don't see the changes I've done. They don't see the growth I've made. All they see is an, is as an addict. And I think it's, it's really tricky as I hear that to sift through and sort through. I wonder why that's all that she sees. Is that because trust hasn't been restored? Is that because there's still some trauma work that needs to be done? is, and I think it's important for this conversation, rebuilding trust is a daily job. And being there and living within our value system, it's hard. Change is hard. And getting to this space, it's, it's not a night and day. There's an awful lot of things that my clients can do to check off boxes. Well, I went to group this week. I went to therapy this week. I did XYZ this week, but their spouse might not feel like there's any change because they don't feel it in their gut. And so, great, you're doing all these things. You, you. Yes, I still see an addict because I see disconnection. I see irritability. I see cut offness. I I see just a lack of. Of understanding. And so, no, I don't necessarily trust that there can be. I see resentment oftentimes of this person who's. I'm doing all these things. Why can't they see that they just see an addict? and the partner saying, yeah, I see he's doing all these things, but I don't feel it doesn't feel different to me.

Redefining that is, I don't know how to determine if I'm safe. I don't know. This is what we're hearing. I don't know who you are. I don't know how to see you. I don't know how to understand you. I can see that you're- and I.

Don'T know if I can pull down my walls and be safe with you.

And that's a mature conversation. I don't know how to do this right now. And if two people could be mature enough in that moment to say, I understand. I see you doing those things. I still don't feel safe. I'm trying to do the best I can and I understand that you still don't feel safe. That's okay. Can we be in that space and show up and start to see anew this person without the anger, without the derisiveness, without that part, without seeing this person who's never going to forgive me. Can we see this person? Can we see their efforts? and then these minuscule moments, these seemingly simple moments, these moments where I have a chance to lean in and maybe you reject me. And instead of taking it personal or personally, I say, it's okay right now. That's where they're at. They're not in a space to connect right now. That's okay. So I start to recognize this. John Gottman calls bid attempts for connection. It's a smile, it's a wink, it's putting your hand on my hand. And instead of me jumping back and being repulsed by it, it's like, oh, that's interesting. I don't feel like I can connect right now, but thank you for reaching out.

I think it's interesting, Dr. Skinner, as you say that, that I do think this can be a very cognitive process, a very intentioned process. with several of my clients as we're addressing this topic, I might have to say, I wonder if you can put yourself in that person's shoes right now. Can you step over and see what it looks like to them? Sometimes I. I may have a client who's telling me about their ex, and they're talking about custody or something, and he did this and he did this, and, like, their whole purpose in life of their whole focus is to make my life awful. It's like, okay, okay, it could be. That would be a hard life if my whole joy was to make your life awful and that's possible. But I wonder if from their perspective, they're doing the very best that they can and they're trying really hard and they're trying to be the best parent that they can because they do love their kids and this is really hard. What, what might it look like for them? And if we can, cognitively say, hold on a second, I'm gonna push where I'm at, my hurt, my pain. Just move it over to the side for just a minute and see if I can try and look at what that might look like for them. That's usually a place where I really see my clients start to soften and say, oh, huh, yeah, their pain might be just as valid as mine. Oh, they do see it from a different perspective and, and It does create, I don't know if I want to say connection, but it does create some compassion and it softens.

And I want to be clear here, even if it softens, it doesn't mean you have to connect. My whole point is, can I see this person's suffering? That is the definition of compassion, being with someone in their suffering.

So can I get outside of myself and see what's going on for them?

Without it overwhelming me. Because there's a part of me that says, well, why don't they just grow up? Why did they not deal with this earlier? Why didn't they finish the story? And I'm saying, stepping back and saying, look, they've got some work they're going to have to do if we're going to connect. I can't control whether they're going to do their work or not, but I understand the suffering. I understand that their childhood, I understand their abuse, I understand their neglect. I understand whatever story is. We still may not be able to connect right now and that's okay, but I'm understanding this person in a deeper level. See, this is human intimacy. When we can actually see this human being and their suffering in their journey, it does not mean we're going to bond right now. I hope I'm clear on that. But it does mean that then I'm going to be less angry, less hateful, less vengeful, less resentful.

You're saying if I can see the other person, if I can get to a place where I can see them outside of my own hurt, anger, pain, shame, whatever, if I can see that other person, then I will have more compassion and empathy because I'll see them as a human. I'll see them.

I'll see them, yes.

I'll see where they're at. It is absolutely an exercise of moving beyond ourselves, seeing beyond ourselves. And I think it's an exercise that we have to practice. It's a muscle that needs to be learned and needs to be exercised over and over and over again.

No question about that. This is, this is a higher way of being. See, if I'm there, I am not living in fight or flight or freeze. I'm living in a space where my prefrontal cortex allows me to step back and analyze a situation or a person and realize they're suffering. Again, that does not mean I have to fix it. That's a very big danger. If I see, see, here's where we have erroneous thinking. If I see your pain, I have to get in, I have to do something about it. I have to fix it wrong.

Especially if I caused it.

I can't fix this. I can be with it. I can hear it. I can listen to it. I can do those things.

On humanintimacy.com, in our courses, I have a course, it's a free course. I think it's called Seven Essential Skills for Communication. That might be the title I always refer to it as a reflective listening course. But in one of the sections of that, free course, I talk about the back pocket. And what I mean by that is really just taking myself, my interests, even my perspective, everything, and just kind of zipping it up and putting it in my back pocket. It is not important in this moment. What's important is just me being curious and really learning about the other person. And so as that person may come home and say, oh, I had a really bad day. My job is just to say, oh, tell me more. What was that like for you? Tell me more about it. If I can come from a place of curiosity without my emotions, because I don't need to have any emotions about how your day was. I don't need to have any emotions about what you experienced because I'm just hearing you tell me about it. Cause it's not mine. So if I can be there, the more curious I can be without just wanting to hear and learn and understand. that's me crawling, kind of like crawling inside your head and seeing the world through your eyes. And I get to see the world through your lenses that way. But I can't if I'm triggered or getting upset or getting hurt because it's all about me. It's not about me.

And a lot of times what I find is this is where couples, they just haven't been able to get to this point. This is what we're talking about, takes practice. It takes self insight and self awareness. and the willingness to step back and analyze how you are approaching relationships. Because there's one other part to this and we're going to need to do a podcast on this one. What do I do when my spouse won't talk with me? When they won't open up? When they won't communicate with me? I'm sitting here in silence. I want to know what they're feeling. I want to know what they're thinking so I can't see into them because they won't let me in. So we're going to at some point need to talk about the fear of being seen when I don't allow people to see me. All right, Marianne, very important conversation. We're just touching the surface of where this could go and the work that could be done. I'm interested in your final thoughts today.

I think my final thoughts are, I hope that this has been helpful for our listeners to maybe just look and see, huh, where am I in this space? What relationships do I have? Where I'm, not showing up or where I'm not allowing myself to be seen or where I'm, or maybe really looking at how am I seeing others? Am I seeing others as unsafe as my enemy as they're out to hurt me? Or am I seeing them as fellow strugglers, fellow humans trying to figure things out, trying to navigate? And as always, I do come back to, I think some of these topics we've talked about today, self-compassion, I hope more than anything as, as we do these podcasts, that, that they'll provide lots of introspection and maybe encourage our, our listeners just to listen to whatever's come up for you today. If there's a relationship that you've thought about that's come to your mind as we've been having this discussion to look at, what are the thoughts that came up for you? And are there areas that some things, maybe some suggestions that we've talked about today, or some things that you maybe want to look at or try to do different. And more than anything, I hope, I know one of the things you and I talk about a lot here are mature conversations. And so I'd love to invite our listeners to say, what mature conversations do you need to have? And I'll invite you to have the courage to start them. So I'm so glad that you've all been here today. Thank you.

All right, my final thoughts. C.S. Lewis. from his book, the Weight of Glory. There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, Arts, civilizations. These are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is Immortals that we joke with, work with, marry, snub and exploit. Immortal Whores or Everlasting Splendors? If we do a gut check, how do we act? How do we see? How are we with others? My invitation is to step back and pause and reflect of how you're seeing others. Human intimacy. The better we are at it, it's going to require us to step back and look in the people around us. and treat them as C.S. Lewis says, as everlasting splendors.

Oh, it's beautiful. I love that, Dr. Skinner.

All right. Thank you so much for being with us today to our listeners. You guys have a good, fantastic, outstanding, marvelous, extraordinarily great week if you choose. Marianne, thank you so much for being with us. Thank.

You.