I Thought I’d Feel Better by Now: Understanding Trauma After Betrayal (Episode #141)

There's something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh. Something's around you.

Welcome to the Human Intimacy Podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Michaelis, licensed clinical social worker. You know, Marianne, at the end of the podcast last week, I introduced the new free course, Making Sense of Sexual Betrayal. I've been working with individuals and couples for 20+ years. And the challenge that I'm finding, Marianne, is they still— how do I make sense of this? And then how do we get through it? So I created a short assessment for the betrayed partner to take and get free feedback. And then a report. I took some of my research. I took Dr. Stephen Pfeiff's research, who's studied what successful couples do after infidelity and sexual betrayal. And I synthesized it into a report. And then I have questions there, 15 questions that every couple should ask themselves as they go through the sexual betrayal infidelity. And so those 3 things, they're absolutely free. The assessment, the report of what successful people do, and 15 questions every couple should ask. Anyway, it's Making Sense of Sexual Betrayal. It's free at humanintimacy.com. And I wanted to start off with that today because those who signed up, I've, I've seen people already reading it and going through the course.

So can I just clarify? So there's the assessment for betrayed partners. And then the other 2, the information from Dr. Fife. And what was the 3rd one?

I basically synthesized, like, these are questions you, before you make any decision, you really need to ask yourself these questions.

So that's information. So that's just information. So Dr. Fife's work and the 15 questions are information, helpful tools, but the assessment is something that you would actually go in and answer some questions and Receive feedback from.

Yeah. It's about, it's a short 27 items-ish. I mean, so it's really short, but it's, it's really, and then you get personalized feedback for the betrayed partner. I'm working on the acting out partner shorter assessment. It's not ready yet.

So that assessment will let me know where I'm at, kind of giving me a baseline.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Areas that you're going to want to focus on.

Yeah.

Yeah. I should say that it's not just Dr. Pfeiff's work. I took some of my work on what, you know, what successful couples do. And I incorporated that in other researchers of what successful people are doing after betrayal and infidelity. So anyway, that's a report that's in there as well. If you're listening to this and would like to just understand more about it, I strongly encourage you to go take it. It's free. Absolutely no, no charge. All right. So let's now jump in, Marianne. We've been getting some questions. And so this week we want to address another question that has come in. And so if you want to read that question, then we'll go ahead and jump on in.

Sure. So the question is, I seem to be having more PTSD symptoms over time than less. What is happening to me? Help.

I really appreciate this question because sometimes we have this idea, Marianne, that time heals all wounds. I think that's a statement that we often heard growing up and in our adult years. And I'm absolutely convinced that time is not what heals infidelity, sexual betrayal, time is not going to be the healer here. And so if you think that time is going to somehow make it go away, that has not been my experience.

Right. And if I want to just open that up a little bit more, I think about my clients who come to me who have experienced maybe some childhood sexual abuse. And so they may be in their 50s or 60s, and this is something that happened when they were 10 or younger. So we're looking at maybe a 50-year span, something like that. What I often see as a result of maybe some childhood sexual abuse is oftentimes my clients, they'll really struggle with saying no. They'll really struggle with showing up maybe and having like their opinion because when there's abuse, we often lose consent.

Hmm.

And so we learn, I just have to be quiet. I have to be maybe invisible. There's just a lot that is lost in so many different aspects of abuse. If we're dealing with something that happened when we were younger, maybe not abuse, but something that we interpreted. So where our dad says, hey, do you wanna go get some ice cream? And we say, sure. And we're 3 years old and we're running up to catch up to dad to get the ice cream. And he puts his hand back to grab our hand, but it smacks us in the face. We might believe, oh, I did something wrong. There's something wrong with me. And so we might create these core beliefs around even small injuries that we're carrying. And so these often build over time. And so as you're saying, time doesn't heal everything. Oftentimes we need to go back and do work around it to let it heal. We need to address it because our brain does not timestamp anything. It doesn't say, That was yesterday. It just says, oh, here's something that happened. And so when I have a trigger or a reminder of it, my brain says, oh yeah, here's this thing that happened. And so if my brain doesn't know if it was 50 years ago or if it was 5 seconds ago, my brain's just pulling it up to help me with it.

So 2 things to what you said. One is the core beliefs. That's a really important part because core beliefs, if you imagine core beliefs are like our operating system of our own human computer. And the way we see life, the way we function, if we have core beliefs, negative core beliefs, things that are not positive about ourselves, I equate that to being a virus. And that virus then slows down our system. So those core beliefs, like you said, that little boy who's, you know, his dad put his hand back, that whole experience could have interpreted a belief of my dad doesn't care about me. He doesn't love me. Doesn't want to be with me. I'm not important, and so you could easily jump into something like that, which is completely not even accurate. But it's still my interpretation as a child. So those very important example that you gave there. The second part is we probably should define those PTSD symptoms that this question came from, right? So if you're listening and you're saying, well, what are the PTSD symptoms? So criteria A is threat to life, fear of getting an STI. Anything that would be abusive in the relationship that feels like it could be a threat to life. Number 2 is you've got something going through your mind, replaying it, memories, nightmares, flashbacks. That's criteria B. Criteria C is avoidance. You avoid people or places or situations that earlier in your life, you probably would've loved going to the mall or a place where, you know, maybe a swimming pool. So you avoid people, places, or situations that remind you of what your spouse did. And then the other part of that is you avoid your own thoughts and emotions. So I numb out. I don't want to feel this way. Criteria D is negative thoughts. I'm unlovable. I'm not important. The world's not a safe place. And then criteria E is your mind is racing. Hypervigilance, meaning you're monitoring your spouse. You're anxious. You're angry. In some situations, you may be suicidal. And if you've been experiencing those symptoms for more than a month, then you have the symptoms of PTSD, post-traumatic stress, and that's what those symptoms are. So that's just kind of a quick overview to those listeners who are like, what are the PTSD symptoms? I want to make sure that we're clear on those.

I think it's really important that we do. And in the RISE podcast, I think episode 1, season 1, episodes 1, 2, and 3, we really do a deep dive into all of those, all of those criteria if you want more information on that. But I wanna go back as you were talking about those core beliefs. I think one of the most important parts to understand about that is if I'm going through my normal day and I discover that my spouse has just acted out in some way, shape, or form, or it's been disclosed to me, I may really feel unwanted, unloved, not enough. And so when I hit that, these new emotions are this new scenario or anything that has that flavor and experience that has that flavor, this is where my brain says, oh wait, we've seen this before. Here are all the times in my past where I've also seen this. And so it can become a really big trigger because it's not just in this situation right here, right now, I'm dealing with this, but I'm also dealing with everything from the past, all of those other experiences as well. And oftentimes my clients might not necessarily have that cognition to say, oh, this is this emotion that's been a theme throughout my life. They might not initially recognize that. They just know it's so big and it feels so foreign and they don't understand why it's just so huge and so destabilizing.

Yeah. And so to that, I'd say, if you feel stuck, like if you feel like It's been, I feel like I'm getting worse, not better. It usually means that we aren't addressing what Marianne's just been talking about, those core beliefs. And we don't know what's bumping into them. It could be that your spouse is working their recovery. They're doing a great job, but you still feel stuck because there's something that's unaddressed there related to their behaviors. So you may say, I don't get it. They're doing their thing. They're moving forward. Why am I, why am I not moving forward? Usually it's because there's a core belief back there that has not been attended to. It may or may not be related with your partner's recovery, or let's say they're not in recovery. And every time that you start making progress, it triggers something they're doing. It's a relapse or a deceptive behavior. And all of a sudden you find yourself back in the same emotional state and like, why can't I make progress? Well, again, safety precedes healing.

And I, and we're talking about attachment wounds. And so as I'm hearing you describe that, Dr. Skinner, the visual that comes to my mind is I've got a wound. Like if I'm actually thinking about on my body, I've got a big sore and like every time it gets bumped, it hurts. But if my partner is acting out over and over and over again, that wound is not healing. It's getting dug around and it's getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And so of course, I'm going to be more dysregulated because I've got this open wound that's not healing. It's getting bumped and growing. Oh, I didn't realize that. Now it hurts here. Now it hurts here. Oh, so it's, there's a lot of growth that can happen with that as well.

Yeah. And the thing I would add to that is because your spouse is not working recovery, then your mind by nature is going to be in protection mode. Right? There's going to be a part of you that's like, I'm sorry, there's something not safe here. I don't feel like connecting. I don't feel like having sex right now. I don't feel like talking about things. I am shutting down because I don't feel safe, or I'm getting angry. And if you find yourself getting angrier, that's the fight in you that says, this isn't fair. This isn't right. And why aren't we moving forward? Why aren't you doing XYZ behavior? Why don't you care enough about me to do these things? And so there's multiple parts that can come out there. The critical part is for you to stop and understand, why am I feeling stuck? What is it that's holding me back? If you feel like your PTSD symptoms are getting worse, not better.

I think I want to bring to this conversation, Dr. Skinner, when I first started my career in this field, I worked with just screening phone calls for individuals that wanted to join a support group. And through this experience, I ended up screening probably over 500 women who were seeking to come into the support group. And so I'd say, hey, tell me your story, help me understand. I wanted to see where they were just emotionally with their mental health, or were they suicidal, kind of just making sure they were going to be a good fit for the, for these support groups. And what I found over and over and over again, were women who would call and say, I feel like I'm crazy because my spouse or partner, they're doing everything right. They're working on their recovery. They're doing everything right. And I have so much rage. Hmm. I feel like I'm going crazy because I've got these big, huge emotions. And I heard this story repeatedly. And as I started to Ask a few more questions and, and really like trying to figure out what's going on here. What became really apparent to me was when we are in the middle of a traumatic situation, we go into that fight or flight mode. And oftentimes we're just in kind of an autopilot mechanical, I am just functioning. Because once people from the outside go, that's so hard. How did you do that? I can't believe. How strong you were. Nobody in that place is thinking, I'm being resilient. I'm being so strong. We are just trying to function and survive. We don't have that outside focus when we're in that space. And so if I'm just autopilot functioning, I'm probably not feeling a whole lot of emotions because I am just trying to, to get through. When things start to calm down, What I've seen and found, especially with these individuals, is as things started to calm down, as their partners started to do more recovery work and it started to feel safer and they were able to come out of this constant fight or flight autopilot, that's when the emotions that they'd been stuffing that they hadn't even had capacity to deal with started to burble up. And underneath that rage is usually deep Anguish, sadness, loss, and grief, but it comes out through this rage. And so I want to bring that to this conversation because this person who sent this may be saying, I'm having these symptoms. It doesn't make sense. And it may be, you may have just been in autopilot and things are settling. And so now all of these emotions are burbling up as well.

Yeah. And I often ask the question, if you haven't experienced anger after betrayal, Get ready. And the reason why is when we look at the polyvagal theory, you don't skip from a dorsal vagal shutdown. Sorry, I went technical here for a second. So shutdown, I can hardly do anything. I can't think, I can't function. That's a shutdown. Usually you don't go straight up to a calmer state of self unless you've gone through the fight or flight response. So anger, your mind's racing. Wanting to pull away from your spouse. Those are typical fight or flight responses. Your body's going to naturally do those things. But the dorsal vagal shutdown, when you come out of it, you're likely to be angry. And some people say, yeah, I've just always been angry since discovery. I can't, you know, and other people say, no, I was shut down for a long time and now I'm starting to get that anger. And their spouse is like, where's this coming from? And so there's a lot of confusion. Well, that actually is normal as you work through things. The question is, do I feel like I'm getting stuck in the anger? And that's where we would want to pay closer attention. That's where you want therapy. That's when we do betrayal trauma intensives. Like, that's some of the work that needs to be done is understanding if someone's stuck, I want to help them get unstuck. Because in that experience, I've had many people come to betrayal trauma intensives and they're like, I did more work here than I've done in years of therapy because we finally getting to the roots of things that have not been attended to. So again, that's just a critical part. Get to the root of what's holding you back.

I love, Dr. Skinner, that you mentioned the intensives because through Human Intimacy, we do have betrayal trauma intensives. And so if that's something that could be helpful for you as listeners and viewers, please reach out to info@humanintimacy.com. And I think as we get ready to close up with this topic, Dr. Skinner, I just wanna make sure that we Once again, share just our heartfelt understanding that this is such a hard space to be. I wanna just validate, no one wants PTSD symptoms. No one wants to be going throughout their day and have a trigger pop up and just the intensity of the emotions that show up with that, with the trigger, with the freezing, with the panic. Like the panic attacks, the nightmares, the isolation, and even just these shifts in how we see the world. This is such a delicate, difficult place to be in. So one thing that I would just want to make sure that we're validating and also bringing out for our audience is, please take care of yourself. Your body is carrying your trauma. Mm-hmm. And so if you're not getting adequate rest, If you're not eating healthy, nutritious meals, if you're not exercising and moving your body and getting enough liquids, healthy liquids, please pause and look and say, how am I taking care of myself? Because my body, it needs the most premium fuel and care to carry me through this. This is a hard, hard space, not just emotionally and mentally, but also physically, because our bodies do carry. Our trauma. And so I just want to make sure that we're addressing that part of this as well.

Self-care is very, very important at points like this. So for me, I would want to end with a question to this person who asked the question of, I feel like my PTSD symptoms are getting worse, not better. The question that I would invite, or maybe the approach I would take with this, if I were sitting with you in New York, in my office, I'd say, okay, I want you to pause and I'm going to give you a 5-minute writing exercise. And I'm just going to ask you to write whatever comes to your mind about what it is that you think is keeping you stuck. A friend of mine, I've said this before in an earlier podcast, that the seeds to the solutions to your pain, your suffering, your hurts lie within you. And so I would invite you to explore that. And then I would want to brainstorm with you. Okay, let's lean into these things that you've written down, and then we're going to really go after those because those seem to be Whatever came to your mind in that 5-minute writing exercise is where I'd wanna pay attention. Take that to a therapist. And those are the things that your instincts, I think, are telling you need to be attended to.

Yeah. As you said that, I just was thinking about a client I had worked with who, when we first met, they were so, they were really upset that I used the term PTSD, that they were really resistant to that. And so I know that can show up. For, for some of our listeners or viewers or our clients. And what was interesting is we did some work on helping my client to regulate. As my client did some assessments and they could actually see, these are the areas where, according to these questions that I've answered, this is where it really is showing up for me. My client said, wow, I think, I think I'm experiencing PTSD. And so Be patient, be gentle with yourself. And also we want to give you a framework to make sense of your experience. Oftentimes we're having these emotions and feelings and experiences that we might not have the words to put around them, but when we're able to make a little more sense of them and put labels and words on them, then our brain can kind of say like, oh, okay, now I can start to deal with this. Now I can make sense of this. So. Yeah. With that, being able to say, yes, I just hit a trigger. Yes, this is a PTSD symptom. Now let me figure out what are my tools? What are my resources? How do I get through this? And as you talked about getting some professional help, my clients will often say, does this ever go away? And I'll say, we often have triggers, but when we've done more of that trauma work, they can really become muted. Or not even as existent, but it depends on also my safety and just the work that I'm able to do around helping defuse what I've been carrying, what's being set off.

Yeah. That question of does it ever go away would be a great topic for a podcast because I've been asked that question. Like, is this ever going to go away? Thank you to our listener for asking that question this week. And if you have questions, info@humanintimacy.com. We love answering questions and appreciate the questions that came in. Marianne, thank you for your time. To our listeners, have a great week. And if you have questions for us, if you have comments, we'd love to hear them. And you can find us on YouTube. And how do they get there, Marianne?

So the address is youtube.com/@human-intimacy.

Great. So you can find us on YouTube. You can also find us at most podcasts. Please share this podcast with others. We We'd appreciate it. Thank you so much. Have a great week, and we'll talk to you again next week.