Introducing the Intimacy Repair Method: A New Path to Healing, Connection, and Lasting Change (Episode #114)

Well, welcome to the Human Intimacy Podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Michalis, licensed clinical social worker. Marianne, today we are going to be introducing the Intimacy Repair Method, the beginning of it. And really excited to announce this as I've been working on it for literally years, but it's finally coming into a place where the last few months I can see the finish line. And really what I want to start with to our listeners and to our viewers, everybody in life has to determine how they're going to show up in a relationship. Everybody has their family stories. Everybody has their family history. But when it boils down to this relationship, how am I approaching this relationship? With fear, anxiety, trepidation, desire, more, more desire for connection. And so what I want to introduce today is the beginning of the Intimacy Repair Method. And I'd like just your initial thoughts on what you've heard about it so far. And then to our listeners, what questions do you think they're going to be asking?

Dr. Skinner, I'm super glad to be here today. And this is going to be a fun conversation because I know this is something you've been working on. It's been in your mind, you've been formulating it. And I know you shared parts of it at the Human Intimacy Conference. And as I heard you sharing the introduction, I thought about a statement that you said of, of the relationships that we choose. And I thought about children don't choose the relationships. We're born into the family. We're born into the relationships that are already there, whether the parents are together, whether they're single, whether there's siblings, whether there's grandparents, like there are relationships that we don't get to choose.

That's right.

And I think the conversation that we're talking about today is actually the conversations that we, or the relationships that we have chosen. We're at, that we are choosing. And hopefully this will be a conversation about how we show up in the relationships that we've chosen and that we are choosing and how we're choosing to do that. So that's what I was just kind of percolating on a little bit. So I know that we're going to be talking today about your new course on this that's coming up. And so I'm, I'm just really excited to dive into this conversation.

So let me put it in context, a bigger context for our listeners. We all have a story. We all have our own experiences, but let's really look at it from the perspective of the Intimacy Repair Method. When I have worked with individuals, trained therapists throughout the world, I've presented around the world on relationships. I often ask a question about what we learned growing up about connection, about bonding. And I often ask the question. How effective were your parents at teaching you how to have a healthy relationship? Just in terms of the model, how to communicate, how to problem solve. When they got into issues, did they know how to do that? Did they do it effectively? Did you witness that? And the Intimacy Repair Method is really not just for people who've experienced betrayal, but it's especially for people who've experienced betrayal. But across the board, every time I do that, Marianne, people Usually I say between 0 and 10, how effective were your parents? 0, not at all. 10, they were outstanding models. They really helped me understand how to connect, how to problem solve, how to communicate. On average around the world, therapists, religious people, non-religious people, we average below a 5.

Mm-hmm.

Below a 5.

And let me paint that picture because I've been sitting in the audience. So I've sat in an audience when you've been presenting training therapists, whole ballroom full of therapists sitting in chairs. And when you say, hey, I want everybody to stand up. I think, I think you have us standing up and I want you to think about your parents. And then you walk through these questions. How well did your parents, like on a scale of 1 to 10, how well did they do these things? And sitting in that room within the first 2 or 3 questions, Everybody's like, like there's a good amount of people that are sitting in their chairs. And by the time you get to around an 8 or a 9, there's maybe 2 or 3 people standing in the room. And you kind of, as an audience member, kind of look around and go, here it is. And there's a visual representation of just people in a room saying, here's how Here's how my models maybe failed me in these really most important areas that we as therapists are working on and trying to help our clients with.

So I think it's really a generational issue. I do this not because I want to criticize our parents or our grandparents or great-grandparents, whatever it may be. I just want us to understand when you don't have a model, you don't have a model. So the Intimacy Repair Method is generational. It's not just this relationship, it's understanding historically where we've been. Mark Wollin's book, It Didn't Start With You, he talks about how we pass things down from generation to generation. So the Intimacy Repair Method is designed to help people understand where intimacy has let us down, where we haven't learned.

So I'm going to tell you about my starting point. As we've been talking about this, this is a memory I haven't thought about for years, but When I was about 3 years old, we moved to a new house. We'd been living at my grandparents', so we moved to this new house. And I remember there was a bedroom that my sister and I shared. And I don't know what age I was, probably between 3 and 6, but at night my sister would sit down and she did this over and over and over again. And it took me a while to learn, but my very first betrayal that I can consciously remember was my sister saying, "Smell my feet, they smell like roses." And she would sniff her feet and she'd be like, oh, they smell so good. Don't you wanna smell my feet? And I'd be like, oh, okay. Her feet smell like roses. They never did. But like 3 or 4 or 6 nights in a row, or just like over a period of time, like she would just be so convincing to me that I should smell her feet. And there was a point that I hit that I learned I am not smelling my sister's feet. They never ever smell good, no matter what she says. Like, she is lying to me. I didn't know the word lie. I just knew that every time my sister tried to trick me, I had a history of falling for it. And so even as we're talking about generational, it could also just be our siblings. This is intimacy repair is about relationships, whether it's a 3-year-old and a 6-year-old, or whether it's a 56-year-old or an 86-year-old. It doesn't really matter. This is about all of our relationships. How we're showing up, how we're connecting.

Yeah. And so as we look at the words, very intentionally chosen, intimacy. So into me see. So letting people into us. The repair part of that. Before we can actually do the repair, we have to make an assumption that there's something that has not worked. But based upon my doing that exercise, literally around the world, I know that repair is necessary. We need a better model for connection. We need to learn how to problem solve. We need to learn how to communicate from an authentic, real place, not a place that's hidden, not a place where there's secrets. We need to learn to communicate in ways that maybe we've never been taught. So you can't repair something unless you recognize that what we've been doing isn't working. Because if I don't see that there's a problem, then I'm going to keep doing the same things over and over again, which is usually insanity because that leads to the same outcomes. So the repair is chosen because we're trying to sometimes repair generations of communication that has not functioned. And I call it a method. I could almost call it a pathway to healing and to really resonating what works in human relationships.

So I'd love just to ask you questions that if I were in the listening audience that I would want to hear today. Is that okay?

Yeah, for sure.

It's like, here, are there different phases? Is there a step one? So talk about that. So how do I approach it? If I'm wanting to approach it and saying, yes, I want this, what will it look like for me?

So I'm going to do it by words for a second. Intimacy is really a question that I have to ask myself. Am I comfortable with letting people into me to see?

So are we going to be looking at like intimacy anorexia? Will that be covered with this?

Well, I'm not even looking at sexual intimacy if I'm looking at anorexia. I'm talking about, do I understand human intimacy and what do I understand about it? Am I even comfortable with letting people see me. So it could be anorexia, meaning I don't even want to be close to people. I'm not comfortable with it. So when I look at it from the context of intimacy itself, we have to explore what it even means. Am I comfortable being a human being that connects and bonds with other people in a meaningful way? Do I long for that? So we begin by assessing where an individual and a couple is. So individually, am I able to show up relationally? And how am I showing up relationally? So in the course, when people take the course, they're gonna be taking two assessments. One is about self and one is about how they're approaching the relationship in a second assessment, what I call Test Your Relationship, which provides incredible feedback on the relationship itself.

Okay. So quick question on that then. Do I take this course as an individual or as a couple?

Ideally, you would do it as a couple, but you can do it if you're struggling with how to repair your relationship and you want to learn more about the skills that work, how to communicate more effectively, you could do it as an individual.

Okay.

But you definitely, if you're going to do it as a couple, you're going to absolutely, you're going to have different assessments that you can take because you're going to have to do a self-assessment. When I look at intimacy repair, I have to ask the question, what's holding me back? I think Tara Brach said it absolutely beautiful. She said, how easy do you make it for others to love you? And so that's a self-evaluation of that awareness of, am I comfortable with intimacy? Am I not comfortable with intimacy? And if I'm not, what's holding me back?

Okay, I'm just sifting through kind of the nuts and bolts as I'm making sense of this. Say that I've been betrayed or I've betrayed my partner. We often talk about wanting to do a disclosure first. We're not able to dive into deep attachment wounds and attachment work until after we've established some safety through something like the formal therapeutic disclosure. And so at what point would this be appropriate for a couple to, to bring this into their healing journey?

So there's core principles in here that are incorporated into it. If a couple has done a disclosure, great. If they haven't done a disclosure, that's also okay. Because the first part of it is a self-awareness where I'm actually stabilizing the couple. And so one of the first stages is we have to stabilize individually and as a couple. And that disclosure process is naturally going to be part of the stabilization. If they're going through that, you can't stabilize without information. You can't build trust without that information. So sometimes people will be further ahead in the different phases that we're going to be going through, and stabilization is one of the first stages.

Okay. So that takes us back to that initial question I had about the phases. So the first phase you said is assessing and understanding myself. Who am I? How am I showing up? And then also understanding the couple. And I know you talked about that test your relationship. Survey, which I know has just so much information, so much feedback regarding strengths and weaknesses for the relationship and the couple.

So I'm looking at individually and then as the relationship, and then both of those assessments will give us a foundation of where to go with it. And what, one of the things that I'm working on right now is educating people on their approach based upon their scores. So with Test Your Relationship, as an example, when a person takes that assessment, they get personalized feedback, about 90 pages that's personalized to their own answers. Think about it. If you wanted a book for yourself on what you could do to end your relationship, that's what Test Your Relationship actually does.

Right. What I'm hearing, Dr. Skinner, I'm trained as an EFT therapist, Sue Johnson's work, Emotionally Focused Therapy. And I remember going to these trainings and learning how to do this and And I'd have couples come to my office to do some couples work and they'd come very specifically because I'm trained in this. And I'd say, hey, you know, here's some of Sue Johnson's books. They're really great. Hold Me Tight's a great book. But my clients would go and they'd read the book, but it wasn't exactly applicable to what we're doing in the office. Like it was hard to bridge the two together. And what I'm hearing you say is rather than therapist being trained in this model here, let me slap this on you and see how it fits. This is a, a model that is curated very specifically for the couple based on their strengths and weaknesses, the needs. And so the whole process is being curated for you individually versus a one-size-fits-all, try and make it fit. Nice. That's what you say. That's amazing.

No, that's right. So 25 years ago, I was with a colleague and we wrote what was called Test Your Relationship. And 350,000 people took that assessment. And what I have done over the years is take the most incredible models that I've seen, like John Gottman's Four Horsemen are in there, having unresolved issues, the Zeigarnik effect that might be holding people back. And then looking at the different types of how we communicate or don't communicate. I have case scenarios in there of like, here's a scenario. How do you typically deal with this scenario in your relationship? So this assessment, the feedback has been incredible. When you take that kind of an assessment, Marianne, you get, you see yourself and your relationship in a new way.

And I'm guessing you didn't mention this, but I'm guessing you're, you've got some polyvagal in there, like helping me understand, do I have, where do I go into fight, flight, or freeze? Am I more avoidant or am I the pursuer?

Right. So I've taken the best models that I've seen in terms of Gottman's work, EFT work, the polyvagal theory, and the climate of our relationship. The polyvagal theory, I use the concept of a climate. So when couples are able to relax, when they're able to be comfortable with each other, let me just give you a question from the assessment. I can be open with my partner without worrying how they will react.

Hmm. And what are my options? Like all the time? Sometimes?

Strongly disagree to strongly agree, right? This section right here is what I call the perceived relational safety. Because again, I'm looking at safety in the relationship. Let me give you another example. I believe my partner sees me as being honest with them. Now I'm how I perceive it. I perceive that how my partner's seeing me.

And I wanna, as I'm hearing these questions, and I know I've, I've seen them in the past, you know what they are a little bit better than I do, but I know that sometimes as we take assessments, it can be very courageous work to sit down and say, here is this question that I've been avoiding or in denial about that I didn't really want to see. And now how do I wanna answer this? Because I get to answer it truthfully, or I can answer it in a way that kind of allows me to still not really face it, but it can be really powerful and challenging to take an assessment and to really show up honestly, because there can be a lot of fear there. What happens if I really choose to see myself or see this? If I admit to myself that this is what's really going on, what will that mean to me?

You know, Marian, most people that I work with, they just want change. They want their lives to change. And if a person isn't yet ready to confront that part of themself, I just take people where they're at. That's up to them, right?

Sure.

If I'm not ready to deal with a part of my life that I'm embarrassed or ashamed about or scared of, that's where they're at. I think there's a very important place for that. So when people take the assessment, I've had people say, can I take the assessment again? Because I'd like to do that one more time. And sometimes that's because they're more educated, they understand more about themselves, and sometimes it's just because they feel safer in the environment. People only change when they feel safe, which is the foundation of this entire model. The Intimacy Repair Method's complete foundation is every connection is based on safety. Okay.

So as we're talking about that, is there a measure? Because I know I can take an assessment at one point in time, and this is based on my mood and my perception. And then as I'm doing work together, does it measure throughout or at the end?

So what I do with this is I have them take it at the beginning and then again at the end, just so they can see and compare how they've done and what they're experiencing. And while it's a 12-week online course, it really could be a year-long or 2-year-long journey because the information inside of it is so filled with information. So while I'll be doing it over a 12-week period of time, it's really going to be 14 weeks, but because some of them will be gone, but it's going to be over 3, 4 months they're going to be able to work on this. But really, the work will continue after that, and they'll be able to have access to continue the learning process and grow from it. So again, this is a class that they'll have continuous access to where they can go back and watch the videos, watch what they've read, what they've seen, the questions, because it also includes a Q&A with it. So I'm going to have a live webinar every week where people are going to be able to go through the material. I'll go through the material. They'll be able to ask questions related to that content, and I'll be answering questions. So there's going to be a library of questions available to people.

So I want you to fill in some gaps for me then.

Yep.

So I know that assessments are, you know, sometimes we look at those as a gold standard because it's giving us actual data that we can measure. Oftentimes with therapy, we say, well, I don't know that. How do you, how do you know if it's helping? And so we've got some assessments. I heard you say we'll take them at the beginning, we'll take them at the end. So we've got some measures, we can measure the progress, but what's happening in the in-between parts that's going to help me change?

So that's what we're going to be going over. So there's going to be chapters to read in the book, videos to watch, practical exercises where we will take a scenario and we will role-play it. So what happens in this process is, let's just say, for example, the question— I'm going to go through another one of these questions. My partner can rely on me to follow through on commitments I make. So let's just say that that's one of the questions. My partner can rely on me that I'm going to keep the commitments. Let's just say a scenario where that doesn't feel true to one of them. So we take that scenario and we run it through a model of, okay, what's happening during the conversation? So one spouse says to the other, I don't think I can rely on you.

Mm-hmm.

Common. What happens in the body when you hear your spouse say that? Do you become defensive? Can you hear what they're saying? Can you actually feel what's happening in your body? So I take every scenario and we look at what's happening through the formula of the Intimacy Repair Method. What's happening? Am I getting defensive? What do I want to say here? Do I actually say what I want to say, or do I know how to say what I want to say? And, and If I'm in shame, what am I hearing? What am I feeling? What am I experiencing when you say I can't ever rely on you? So in that, just that one question, we will take scenarios based upon the model and we will go through different scenarios that couples bump into. And without the understanding what's happening in their body, without understanding why they're responding the way they do, they're going to do generational responses that we already talked about, which are blaming, which are projecting, which are sinking into shame and getting defensive. I'm never going to get it right. I can't say anything right. I can't do it right. And so we're going to be talking generationally what's going on, the shame that's stuck. And that's where we're going to educate people so they understand what's happening. Because if you understand why the communication is breaking down, you can then do it effectively.

And if you understand what's happening for you in that moment, you can start to be aware of when this happens, this is how I react. And here's what I really am needing here. Instead of being reactive, I can slow down and I can figure out how to respond. I think that's what you're talking about.

Exactly. Both partners, both partners. Because if I present that feeling, I'm having a hard time with relying or trusting, feeling trust right now. If I, if I say that versus, you are just so unreliable, even how I present that information can, can physiologically create a place in my spouse that they're going to hear me or not hear me. So what we're doing is we're creating the educational foundation from stability all the way through their couple healing and repair into deeper levels of intimacy, 7 types of intimacy. Followed by a continuous assessment of now, where do we go from here? What skills do we still need? So from beginning of stabilizing, finding safety, working through the gotchas, the things that they don't know how to do physiologically, the shame, the communication issues, where they get stuck, how they can do it one-on-one with each other. And if they can't do it one-on-one, then they get to ask their question, how would we do this? And we role play it. Give me a scenario. We're gonna role play it so you can see it live. That's what we're gonna be doing.

And as I hear you talk about that, Dr. Skinner, what I love, and I, I just get this sense of when I've got two people who are able to see themselves and see their pattern and say, here's, here's what I'm needing. Here's what's going on with me. Here's what I'm wanting to communicate. Here's what's really going on. Deep down, that is the essence of where we attach. That is the intimacy, allowing our partner to see us with our walls down.

That's exactly right.

I don't have this perfect— I'm hurting. Can you see me? Can you be there for me? Here's what I need. That is where the magic really, really happens of connection. And so I'm hearing you describe that and thinking like, wow, I'm really excited about about this. One question I had as you were describing it, I know that relationships can be messy and these generational patterns and coping survival skills that we may have acquired along the way aren't always healthy. I just wondered, is this something that would be helpful for a couple to use in their couples counseling?

So usually what I find in situations like this is we need continuous practice.

Right.

So yes, I'm gonna give you the template of what works. The more you practice it, it's no different than developing a muscle when you exercise, when you train for a run, you have to practice these. And that's, Marianne, where I find most people, they go to therapy, but they're not getting the practice that goes with it. So yeah, I would like people, if you're in therapy, great, continue going to therapy and saying, here's what I'm learning. Here's what we need to learn to do in these moments, because now we're taking it moment by moment of where we're getting stuck. See, most people aren't failing because they want to fail. Most people aren't failing because they don't have a desire. It's not usually a character issue. It's not that they have a bad character. It truly is they don't know what to do because they haven't seen the model. They haven't learned how. That's where I see our society is letting us down.

So I want you— if you don't mind, I'd love to hear you speak a little bit more to that because I know you and I talked about earlier, you'll also be doing some training for therapists so that therapists will know how to utilize this model and how to use this with their clients.

And the reason why is because I, again, my concern is when I look at the real life data of what people say about what they grew up with, when I look at those stories of what people are saying, I didn't learn how to do this. There's no shame in that. You can love your parents and say they didn't teach me how to do some things effectively, and I still love them. So if I can let go of that part of it, then I'm saying, okay, then what does work? And I'm trying to take the best models— Gottman, Sue Johnson, and other conflict resolution strategies, the polyvagal theory of what's happening in the body, dealing with shame— I'm trying to take the best models possible and let's put it into one collective intimacy repair method So our entire society, therapists can be using it. Individuals can be using it. Individuals can train their children and teach their children how to do it. That's my goal.

I'm finding myself grinning here, Dr. Skinner, because I know we've had conversations in the past where if Dr. Skinner were teaching or putting together a university master's program in counseling, you just hit all of the markers that we've always talked about. These are the theories, the platforms or the systems that we would want to utilize to teach individuals how to have good relationships and teach even therapists, like, these are the models that really are helpful, that work. And so I, as you were talking about that, I was like, this is it. This is your whole university course that you, that you've thought about. We've talked about putting together and you're putting it together here for individuals and couples to utilize in their own Relationships.

I want our society to be better relationally. And the truth is, if couples can learn to do this, then their children and grandchildren can break the cycle of what we've experienced. Our society is only as strong as we are in our relationships. And the only way we're going to help the next generation is learn how to do it ourselves. When I was studying about differentiation with my wife, one of the fascinating things I learned there is your children are only able to differentiate themselves as much as you differentiate. And if you don't know the concept of differentiation, I'm gonna have to have my wife on to talk with us about that because it's a beautiful concept. Type it into ChatGPT or whatever you learn and type in, how do I differentiate in relationships? What does it even mean? It's phenomenal. But we're going to be talking about that aspect of how to be healthy self so I can show up in the relationship.

And so as I hear you saying, I want to help people, I want to help relationships. We're living in a world where kindness and introspection and slowing down and learning and change are not as valued rather than a hot response or a quick response. And so I'm hearing you talk about this and I want to highlight how needed this is, I think, for not just our families, but our communities and our societies and our whole world is slowing down and learning how to be relational again, learning how to meet the need that we all deeply, deeply have rather than being reactionary or reactive because our need isn't being met. It's, this is about slowing down and learning how to say, Let me share with you and see inside of me, and let's have you learn how to slow down and to be able to see inside of me so we can both be vulnerable and we can both have the connection that we want. All of us as human beings, it's wired into us to have connection. And yet we, as you're saying, we don't know how to do that. We're not learning it. What we're learning from our world is how to be divisive.

Which is so unfortunate. I mean, in the assessment, I actually have a loneliness scale. It's just 3 simple questions, but it's a loneliness scale. And again, I'm going to be exploring that. My whole point is I'm covering so many different core concepts that I found, like loneliness is related to depression. Depression is associated with stress. Stress is associated with anxiety. Anxiety is often associated with shame. And when I put them all together, that we link everything together, I'm asking these questions because I want to understand where you're at. And then let's talk about human connection and how we do that. I really believe one of the best antidotes to most of our mental health challenges is human connection. The better we are in our relationships, our longevity in life is related to our relationships. So I, again, I don't— we have to combat this. It's not optional if we're going to live life the way we have the potential. Life is short, I often say. Why in the world are we living below our relationship potential?

And I think the simple answer to that is most of us don't know how to do it anything different. Than what we've learned. And so this is such an exciting opportunity to learn, to live and do better.

So if you are interested, you are listeners, let me just tell you, May 7th, 2026 will be our first course time. We will do subsequent classes, but the classes are going to be webinar style, 12 weeks. You're going to have the assessments You're gonna have an opportunity to do a Q&A with me once a week where we're gonna go through material. I'm gonna answer questions. We're gonna role-play. You'll have consistent access to all of the videos that come with it and consistent access to all of the assessments. So you're gonna be able to measure yourself over time. That's my goal. Again, if you want your relationship to get better, to heal, if you really want that, I'm gonna outline how you can do that based upon what the researchers have found. We're gonna be using some of the best methods we know. To strengthen relationships.

Hey, I have a quick question then, Dr. Skinner. What if I'm listening to this on May 18th and I'm like, wait, I want that. I want to do that. Is this a closed class that I can only get into on May 7th? And then—

Nope. You're going to be able to catch back up. You're going to be able to catch back up because the reason why is all the, all of it's recorded. So it's a webinar style so people can have their confidentiality. I know that's a big deal for people. It's the confidentiality, but it's a webinar style. But they can ask questions. But so this can be recorded and you can go back and watch it. So yes, they'll be able to go back and watch it. And we'll be doing live ones on a rotating basis. So if you didn't get the first one, you can get the second one. Because again, this is my career moving forward.

Culmination of your life's work of putting it all together.

It absolutely is. And at this point, I couldn't be more excited because I'm going to be training therapists so they can then use it with their clients. Because again, I've been training therapists around the world and there's frequently this question, Marianne. It's like, what do I do with the couples? How do I help the couples?

Right.

And that's where therapists— that's where we're struggling. And this is a model that I believe that will resonate with people because in truth, I've taken what I've been doing in my intensives for the last 12 years, 13 years, and I've applied the best material with what I've learned, how it works. And so this isn't just theoretical. This is application. I've been applying this with couples for literally over a decade, and it's the best I've got.

So where do I— if I am listening to this and say like, yes, sign me up, is there a limit to the, to the amount of people that can sign up? And when do I need to sign up by? And how do I do that?

So we will close on May 6th, just because I've got— I already have people signed up for it. So I already have multiple couples who are signed up. So yes, there is space that is limited just because my Zoom account only has so much, right? But again, we're going to try to get as many people in as possible. And at this point, I, again, I'm going to keep it as open as long as I can. I want to help as many people as possible. So if it's not yet open, you can go to humanintimacy.com and you can look at the calendar and the calendar will give you the dates and you can register through there.

So when I go to Human Intimacy, usually there's a box. I don't know what to call it, but there's something I can click on. That says sign up here. And you're saying that, is that going to be available?

Or you'll be able to see that you'll be up front on the main page.

You'll be able to go to the calendar to scroll through to find out.

You can just click on that. And soon I'm actually going to have a website, Intimacy Repair Method, where you'll be able to learn more about the method on that website. Just if you just want to learn about the method itself.

All right. Well, thank you, Dr. Skinner.

Thank you. And to our listeners, I know this has been more of a conversation about the method, but my hope is that you have hope. And, and that there are solutions, because I've unfortunately— far too many people feel stuck. So thank you for joining us today, Marianne. Thank you for joining as well and participating. I always appreciate our conversations.

Likewise, Dr. Skinner. Thank you.