Is it Possible to Make Boundaries and Rules our Kids Actually Want to Keep?

Foreign. Welcome to Finding Noble, a podcast where we climb into the world of young people's mental health and where we provide support for the adults who support them. I'm your host, Carly red. Good morning, Dr. Skinner.

How are you doing today, Carly?

I'm great. It's good to be with you again.

Yeah, we get to do it again.

Yes. Another podcast Today we are discussing healthy boundaries in our homes, in particular with our children. And we hear more and more about boundaries from books and podcasts, the whole wellness world. We've all latched on to this notion of boundaries, which I think is actually kind of interesting because we also hear a lot about connection and making sure we have more connection in our life. And the two kind of seem to go, not contradictory, but maybe a little bit. But why? Why boundaries and how do they help with connection?

If we start off with a question like, what is the purpose of a boundary? We would say it's probably to protect our children. As parents, we want to protect them from harm. We want to help them have the best life possible. And imagine with me for a second that there were no stop signs, no stoplights. What would it be like driving? Be pretty chaotic, right?

Yeah, incredible.

So, yes. So we have to have some kind of structure to guide our lives, to simplify it, we have to have some kind of boundaries. But far too often, we focus more on the boundaries than we do the relationship itself. And this is where I think you. Exactly where you started off today. It's like, how do we balance this? Well, my general guideline is, is we focus on the relationship first, and boundaries are a natural byproduct of that. And so I want to have a great relationship with my child, and I want to develop that relationship simultaneously. I want to protect them and create stop signs and help them understand the purpose of those stop signs. So part of my answer is we do both. We create the relationship first, Working on that, and then we help them understand the purpose of a boundary. Never to control, but to help them understand the benefit of a boundary.

I really like that, that we are meant to have joy in this relationship with our children, and so to focus on the relationship rather than the boundaries or the rules. Because I think as parents, sometimes we get caught up in our kids, obedient to the rules that we put in place. Are they obedient to the rules at school? But really, it's about the relationship first. That should be our primary focus. And then rules come as a result of our career. It's care, not control.

Yeah. And let me just build off of what you said there, I would much rather my child come to me and say, what do you think about this? Because really what they're saying is, help me understand this boundary and help me explore it. And if we have that kind of a relationship, then we teach our children, okay, so what would be the outcome if we did this? Whatever the behavior is. Stayed out late, past 12 o', clock, 1 o', clock, 2 o' clock in the morning. What's that like for you? And ultimately, I want to help my child instill the boundary inside of themselves rather than it being something that I impose upon them. And I think there's a big difference there. I want them to be able to come to these conclusions on their own, make choices on their own. As parents, I see us as the scaffolding and just supporting them as they create their life and make meaning of what experiences they're going to have in life. I love this topic because when we help our children understand boundaries, then they can actually understand, oh, I get to figure this out. Not I'm being controlled. And that's really a big separation. I want my child to learn rather than feel like it's mom and dad imposing my will upon my child.

There's purpose and boundary and exposing that to our kids rather than just constantly setting boundaries. The why, I think especially the generations coming up are wide generations. They don't want to just do things out of duty. They want to know why. Why would I have these rules? Why would I have these limits put in place? And to have those conversations, it's out of care, it's out of safety. It's because you are so important and you are so loved that we desire for you to be safe and to feel valued, be in situations where you feel safe and feel loved.

Let me give you an example of that. Today, more than ever, we see anxiety and a direct relationship with anxiety and smartphone usage, in particular app usage. And one of the things that we want to do with our children is help them understand why are we more anxious. And helping educate them is helping them understand if they don't create boundaries, they might be more likely to be anxious. So I want to educate my child so they understand. You know, the more I'm on my app, I actually feel more tense inside. I feel more conflict inside. And so now I can, as a parent, say, okay, let's talk about why that's occurring. And so we help them install that boundary in their lives rather than saying, hey, these are the rules, these are the guidelines. We help and educate them. It's so much more effective in our parenting when we help our children understand the why a boundary actually matters.

It kind of goes back to what we want them to have. This internal desire to understand boundaries and then even learn how to set their own personal boundaries that aren't forced upon them or have them be acted upon by parents, but that they eventually start to create those for themselves so they can be happy and functioning adults.

That's my goal. Right. I want my children to have as much internal confidence, which if you look at the research on the power of boundaries, if you have boundaries, you are actually more likely to have self confidence and self worth. So it's not just a good idea to have boundaries. It's to understand if you do this, you're going to feel better about yourself because you know your limits. And you know, you know what? I probably need to go to bed because staying up late, I'm just tired and groggy and I just don't feel well the next day. So I probably need to say, you know, guys, I got to get home tonight because I, I've got a big day tomorrow. Now that's a self imposed boundary. And when your children start doing that, that's when you know they understand themselves well enough because they're starting to internalize the boundary and say, that's a good idea.

Have these lanes or these boundaries help us thrive, push us forward in a way that they wouldn't otherwise. That we accomplish so much more because they continue us going in a direction that we want to be headed instead of constantly varying. You know, that just, it takes longer.

Yeah. And let me build on this concept. If I had all the candy available to me and I said to my child, you can have as much candy as you want. No, I don't, I don't care. Just eat as much as you want. Now, the child might initially be really happy, but at what point does their stomach start getting sick? So much so that they might even throw up because at some point they have to put on their own restraint because it doesn't taste good anymore.

Right?

And what's interesting there is in life when we teach our children like, you can have all the candy you want or you can what we call, regulate and you can choose their self confidence, their self worth, their self belief increases when they're in charge. And as we teach our children to walk through this and talk with this openly and not in a hey, here's the rule. You can only do this, you can only do this, you can only do that. Well, man, if I'm the child. I'm like, okay, rule, rule, rule, rule, rule. In contrast with, you know, my parents talking with me about this, and we're having a conversation that's pretty cool. That's how we develop meaningful relationships. Is it's a relationship first, rules second.

Well, I think as parents, it sometimes feels easier to just say, because I said so, that's why this is the rule. And because I said so, which I, I think in generations past, maybe that's how, how parenting kind of work. But.

But now, real quick there, Carly, on that one, because I said so, your child's like, I don't care what you said. Right. That means I'm going to push it another way. Because you said so. It means I'm going to do another way.

Yes, exactly. Instead of taking the time. I know you always talk about purposeful parenting and intentional parenting. That takes more time initially. But the goal is, as you set boundaries, you're creating less friction between you and the people in your home. And, and over time, everything starts to simplify. And I think that's the beauty of this, is when you take the time to create the relationship, when you take the time to discuss the whys behind you're doing what you're doing. Yes, you may have to stop doing what you're doing in that moment and focus on your kid, put it down. But in the long run, it'll pay off.

Yeah, that's a brilliant point, what you just said, because it may be initially more work, because you're talking with them and you're having this conversation about why things matter. In some ways, you're educating them, you're helping them come up with ideas. And maybe together you're brainstorming and saying, well, okay, why does this matter? Why do you think it matters to me as a parent? And now you're getting them to think through why the boundary matters. In contrast with I told you so. Let's talk about this. Let's mole on it. Whatever the decision is, or whatever you're thinking about doing, and what's the outcome if we do that? And again, you're teaching them a problem solving skills that you want them to have for the rest of their life. We should always step back and analyze and say, does this make sense to me? And if it doesn't make sense, then why are we doing it?

Yeah.

So if we can get them to rationally think through a situation, the consequence, man, they're going to make much better decisions throughout their entire life.

That's the question I wanted to ask you is that kids are masters at pushing boundaries and finding loopholes. Can you give us any insight as to why this is almost ubiquitous or universal amongst all kids, particularly, and most especially with teenagers?

Yeah, let's just talk about the identity development, right. As a, as a child that their identity develops, they want to push the boundaries. They want to see where the limits are. They want to explore. And so part of the reason why they're going to push a boundary, say, can I do that? What happens if I do that? And so part of their identity development is this curiosity of, well, where are the limits? And so in some ways, I want to encourage my child to, to whatever those limits may be, I want them to think through that and I want them to explore, but I also want them to understand there are consequences. And so they're going to push the boundaries. That's, that's almost a universal thing. Teenagers push boundaries. Part of it is their brain development too. Because the brain development of a child, we really don't see the brain stop developing in some ways until it's 25. So I expect that part of it. But I also know that when we talk through things and we have the kind of a relationship that we explain why the boundary matters. Here's our reasoning, here's our decision, here's what we're making, here's why, and let's talk about when that can occur and how it's going to look and create the guidelines in advance. That's when a child's more prepared, prepared to make the decisions of what they're going to do on a smartphone, for example.

So initially it's. It sounds like there needs to be an initial conversation that we need to be having not only with our children, but also with our spouse. Let's have a conversation together. But it does feel like we do need to be having better conversations before, especially around devices or curfews, just so the child has very clear expectations about what's happening. And again, back to that. Less friction. I feel like there's less friction if they understand why this is how we feel about this. They feel your sense of care and your desire for their safety. And even if they don't agree necessarily with exactly the boundary, they still understand your love behind it.

I love that. Your love behind it. Like, as a parent, why am I doing this? So sometimes it's valuable for us as a parent. Say, you ever wonder why this rule or guideline matters to me, just out of curiosity, why do you think I care about this? Because the reality is it would Be so much easier if you had a phone.

That's true.

It would. It would be easier. It would be easier on me. It'd be right. I don't like the fight now. Now just notice the vulnerability there. Even in the conversation, I'm saying, this is what I want for you. Now let's talk about why it actually matters, why I. Why we have chosen this specific boundary. And now not only you're educating, but you're helping them understand. They may not completely agree with you, but at least they understand what you're thinking. Again, you're teaching them a valuable lesson of why we are choosing to do what we're doing. And a mindless boundary is more about control. An intentional boundary is. I've thought through this, and this is what the decision we have come to in our family at this point. Right. So now I'm more intentional about. Yes, let's get you a phone. Here's the guidelines. That's much more intentional parenting. It leads to better outcomes.

I think that also requires intuitive parenting, where you really know each child individually. And I think oftentimes we'll read a book on parenting or listen to podcasts on parenting. And we think I'm going to apply this to my family because it seems like the right thing to do. But it's also so important is what I'm hearing you say, to be intuitive with each child and to really have intentional boundaries set based off of the needs of that specific child, which I really love, because that requires effort in your relationship, but also requiring effort in relationship brings joy to not just your child, but to your life that you're feeling the fruits of being a parent. And so I kind of love that.

Yeah. Unfortunately, I think we live in a society where it's easy to what we might call autopilot parenting. We just push the button and we're on autopilot. I don't want to think about that. I don't want to deal with it until it's a problem. And then we're like, oh, crap, what did I do?

Damage control. Yeah.

As parents, we have to step back and we have to take the time. And I love that point. We take the time because we want to. To have joy in our parenting. I mean, we don't wake up in the morning thinking, I wonder how I could mess with my child's brain today. I wonder how I could make their life miserable. No, we want to enjoy the experience, and we want them to have that experience. And so really, the boundaries create the structure so they can have a Healthy life. And if we do it early and we do it consistently, it's a lot easier down the road. Set the habits that are healthy now, and you'll reap the reward later.

Yeah, that's beautiful. I really like that. I had this experience the other day with my oldest son, and he's just busier. He's more independent. And he was home for not very long, and he was showering and about to leave with friends again. And I said, hey, you have chores. These are your things. This is your bedroom. This is your bathroom. You need to make sure this is clean before you leave. I haven't asked a lot because I know you're busy with all the things on your plate right now, but I need you to do that. And he got really frustrated, and he got mad and angry. And then I was a little bit sad, and he said, mom, it's okay for me to get mad sometimes. I can have feelings. It's okay for me to get mad. And I was like, actually, you're right. It's okay. And I think for whatever reason, when I felt pushback from him, I thought I was doing something wrong. That, you know, oh, shoot, maybe I shouldn't have asked him to do this, or maybe I shouldn't have. You know, maybe I'm pushing him too hard. But for him to essentially be parenting me, it's okay for me to feel angry that I can't leave right now and I have to do my chores. That's an okay feeling and emotion to have in our home. And it really taught me a lot because I felt like maybe I was damaging the relationship or maybe I was putting too heavy a burden on him. But pulling back and seeing it from that perspective, we can allow these emotions to happen. We can allow there to be a little bit of a rumble. Conflict doesn't mean there has to be contention. And there can be healthy conflict in the home. And healthy conflict resolution is probably the best thing we can offer our kids as they get older. So even though it might feel a little bit sticky and even though it might feel uncomfortable, it doesn't mean necessarily that we're doing something wrong.

You're where you said that really important concept. We're going to have emotions. And what a great insight your son shared. I mean, really appreciate an adolescent having that awareness. Now let's say that I had a group at a home where anger was a sin. It's wrong. Then what essence the message I've got is the boundary is, you can't have this emotion. That's actually Damaging to us because we are not allowing a natural expression, which teenagers, by the way, they have a whole lot of that anger. That's hormonally. That's what happens to them. And so the awareness of your son to say, yeah, I can be angry, recognizing that, you know what? So where are the limits on that? That's absolutely a brilliant point, son. Where do we deal with the limits on our anger? Would that be a fun conversation? Because you're right. You're absolutely right. Thank you for sharing that. Now let's talk about where do we cross the boundary when we get angry? And now you're having a conversation, helping them understand the limits of it. You're going to experience it. In fact, if I could teach you anything here today, son. My entire life, I've had to figure out anger. I've had to figure these emotions out. And the fact that you're aware of that, man, you're doing great, son. And you picked up on my emotion, right? My emotions may be sadness, because I do want you to do those chores, because I know we need it done in the home, and it's good for you, and I want you to play. So how are we going to find the balance?

Can you just come over to my house and help me have these conversations, Dr. Skinner? That'd be really helpful.

Hey, that's actually why we're here talking, Right? Because I'm going to assume that many other parents are doing this, but notice in those conversations how much I'm inviting them into this conversation with me.

Yes.

And that's the kind of parenting that I want to do. Okay, let's talk about this part of it. And that kind of conversation, it makes them feel like you validate their opinion. And boundaries are so much easier when we collaboratively work on them. And that's really the concept.

Wow, that really is genius. To. To be able to turn this negative emotion or that we feel like is so negative. To have anger and sadness and to turn it into something positive, to have this positive conversation, then to tell them you're proud of them for their wisdom or their insights or being able to control it in ways that's not punching a hole in the wall.

And that's the continuous journey we have as parents. And sometimes we're going to do it right, and other times we're not. But here's another one. When I make a mistake, I can actually acknowledge it. And if I can acknowledge that I made a mistake to my child, that allows them to recognize it's okay to make mistakes and that too, is helping us understand sometimes we're going to go over boundaries. Mom and dad are, too, because we're not perfect. And that's the message I also want to send them, is I'm still learning how to be a parent. I make mistakes. And when you make mistakes and you're not comfortable with them, that means you've crossed a boundary. And that's the awareness I want you to have as my son or my daughter. So when we make mistakes, we're not shaming ourselves. We're learning from them and saying, I don't like it when I do that. I don't like it when this occurs. I don't like feeling this way. Great. Now they're establishing their own boundaries.

When I feel like that lifts some of the pressure off of a parent, especially to feel this need to always have perfect emotion where we don't ever lose our temper, which obviously no parent has ever done. But I feel like turning all of the emotions into something that makes us human and makes all of us human in this home together. You know, is connection. That is connection happening. That you're being vulnerable enough to say, I was wrong or I made a mistake here, or I made a boundary that I didn't keep myself. I think that is really beautiful to have that kind of environment, home environment, where it's okay to make mistakes. But we're trying. We're constantly trying.

Yeah. If we think we have to be perfect as parents, we will fail. And if anything, I'd say I. I know I'm going to make a mistake, and I'm going to model for them how to repair it. Because if I've made a mistake and I acknowledge it, that allows them the freedom to make mistakes and to learn from their mistakes. So I think that's really important part of this. There's one other part of this, and that's an agreement. A friend of mine, Dr. Lane Fisher, he once said, in our family, we created what's called umbrella rules. And what we did is we sat down as a family and we decided, what rules are we going to operate by in this family? And they identified some very specific guidelines. Like in our family, we won't yell, scream, hit, whatever it may be. And everybody agreed upon that. It now the family has created a boundary of how they're going to operate. And if you see mom and dad going out of this boundary, then you can talk with us, you can call us on it. If we are doing that, you have the authority the right to say, mom, dad, you guys are breaking a Boundary, a family rule. Now, again, we're teaching a concept that everybody's agreed upon, why it matters. And it's something that we have collaboratively done. It just leads to better outcomes.

Yeah, that's what we want, are the outcomes to match our efforts. Now, I have a question for you. How important is it that you and your partner are on the same page? Because oftentimes, in a busy home, you know, there's not a lot of opportunity to call your spouse when maybe you're in a parenting moment or you feel like you need to create a boundary before your child goes out and you're not there together. How important is it that you are on the same page? Because I've noticed that happening a lot lately. For instance, my son went camping last night with friends, and my husband said no, which I didn't know. And then I said yes. And then by the time he got home, my son had already left with friends. I felt bad that we hadn't discussed that. But really, what is your opinion on that and what have you seen?

How much time do we have? Just joking. But because. Because this is a topic in and of itself. Because now we actually shift gears into the marital relationship and the dynamic of that relationship. Because sometimes people create rules or boundaries and they don't even know why. It's hard if one parent's parenting one way and the other's parenting another way, and you aren't even in agreement because you're fighting in between your marriage. So I think it's absolutely critical that we do two things. First of all, we need to have a great focus on our relationships so we understand each other and why we're parenting the way we're parenting. That, again, takes a little bit of time to understand each other. So why does it matter? Let's just say, for example, last night, why did you not want him to go? I need to understand that. Because that mattered to you. And I said yes. I didn't mean to undermine you. I just didn't know. All right, So I just want to understand what your thoughts were. Now we're again talking on the same page, trying to get on the same page. Now, we may not even agree, but then if we don't agree, then we have to ask one fundamental question. What's the desired outcome that we have for our child? What's the lesson we are wanting them to learn? So I want to reverse parent this. If I look at my child, and when they leave my home, what do I want them to know and understand? About myself, about life, about Relationships about their friendships, about the importance of work and ethic. What are our intended goals and how do we get them to that point where they were, maybe even surpassed the goals. What we want as parents, productive, care about people, have social skills, whatever those things are. If those are the skills I want, how do I help my child get there? I want to say yes to my child as much as possible. I want to say yes as often as I possibly can because I want them to learn. I also want them to recognize that there are times where we have to say this one doesn't feel right. And if I've said yes enough, they're going to understand when I say no that there's a reason, and then I'm going to give them the reason. And as parents, if we say, hey, I have a general rule in situations like this, I'm going to talk with your dad or I'm going to talk with your mom to make sure that we're on the same page. This is a bigger ask than you've normally asked. And I want to say yes, but. But I need to collaborate. And now we're modeling a behavior of what a marital dyad can do. And you're teaching them how to be married with proper boundaries.

Wow, that's really good.

When we allow our children to be a part of this process, we get better outcomes. They develop more internal strength to say no or yes in their own lives.

That's incredibly profound. And I think lots of parents who are trying really, really, really hard to be a good parent, I am guilty of this. That oftentimes can create, create a space or a home that does feel so structured or so rigid that yes, it feels very natural for kids to continue to push because there's no, you know, you talked about scaffolding instead of scaffolding. It feels like we're suffocating a little bit and it feels very closed in or almost like we are holding a remote control and trying to get them to do exactly what we want them to do. But to prepare a home in a, in an relationship with that type of scaffolding, so that there is flexibility and freedom. You're giving them that freedom to make choices, but within limits.

Children actually do better when they understand that there's a structure. So it's not, I'm not trying to control. As I said before, we're trying to support and educate, but if we're going to have a boundary, we need to understand why, then we need to educate, and then ultimately we need to work together to implement those boundaries. But we need to understand ourselves well enough to understand why we're implementing a boundary in the first place.

So what do we do as parents if we would like to do better, if we would want to change some boundaries that we've made, or lack of boundaries in our homes?

I often get a question like that, like, okay, I hear what you said, great ideas, but what if I haven't done it? What if our child's already at the point where they're like, I don't care what you say, mom and dad. And I've seen that. And here's my general guidelines. First of all, as a parent, you come in in a humble position. You know what I'm going to tell you As a parent, I haven't known how to do certain things. I'm still learning as a parent. So I'm going to come in from a vulnerable position. What I'm realizing is the way I've done it hasn't worked very well. And so I'm going to ask something that might be hard for you and for me. I want a better relationship with you. And I'm concerned about whatever the behaviors that, that you need to set the boundary on, whatever that is as a parent. So I would be role playing this. I'm a little bit concerned about this. I want to talk about how we create structure around that to help you. So notice I addressed the relationship. I want a relationship, a better relationship, in fact. But if you say to your child, I would like to have a better relationship, and at the same time, I realized that there's things that I need to do better, and some of it is to protect you from some things that are hurting you right now. Like, we need to get more structure in your bedtime. I was reading the other day, for example. Now I go to the education that a child needs, 8 to 9 hours or even 9 to 10 hours at your age. And I realized that I haven't been paying attention. You're probably getting six or seven. I think that's going to be hard on you and may increase the moodiness and the grumpiness and how hard it is to pay attention at school. But I realized that if we could get more structure here, could I help you create structure so you could get more sleep? And now I'm again, I'm trying to get into this collaboration because I think it's important. And now I've explained the why I want a better relationship. I've acknowledged that I haven't been paying attention. And now in that process, we're able to work together to collaborate a better outcome.

This feels like this is happening in a moment where there's not a lot of heat happening, where the nobody's dysregulated, the child or the parent. And where you come in with a lot of love, just a lot of love. Like you said with the relationship that this is about care, not control. And I agree with you. I don't know of any person that would feel super resentful, maybe a little bit frustrated with the boundary, but not with the person. If someone admitted, I love you so much and I care about you so much that maybe I can help you some more. Maybe I can be more involved in your life in a way that will help it. I think that's really significant. I loved this quote. I'm listening to a book about Abraham Lincoln right now, and they were talking about what kind of parent he was. And Mary Lincoln, his wife, made some remarks. He was very loving and very gentle. And some people at that time period really felt like he needed to be more strict. And she has this beautiful comeback. She says, love is the chain whereby to lock a child to its parent. I felt like that was a good way to finish our talk today, that love is the chain in which we lock a child to its parent. And really focusing on that, before rules, care before control. Thank you so much for being with us, Dr. Skinner, today. I've learned so much. I wish we could just keep going and have me myself personally keep learning from you. But I hope some of you listeners gleaned as much, or at least a small part of what Dr. Skinner has taught us today. So thank you for being with us.

It's been a lot of fun, so thank you. Relationship before rules. Relationship before rules. And when you have the relationship, rules are more likely to be followed.

You've been listening to Finding Noble. I'm Carly Redd. Follow Finding Noble on all available podcast directories and find out more on our website, findingnoble.com that's finding Noble. N o com. And if you or anyone close to you are looking for further resources on young adult and adolescent mental health, Dr. Skinner and a host of other leading professionals working in the mental health world share courses and even answer your questions, all on parentguidance.org that is parent guidance.org brought to you by the Cook center for Human Connection.