Making Sense of and Responding to Tragic and Traumatic Events (Episode #84)

There's something about you that I can't.

Help but smile when you smile and laugh.

When you laugh, something's around. Welcome to the human intimacy podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner, Marianne Michaelis, licensed clinical social worker in the state of Washington. Marianne, how are you today?

Thanks, Dr. Skinner. I'm really glad to be here today. I. Gonna be honest, my heart's a little bit heavy. As you know, there was a shooting this week, just yesterday, and I know it's in your neck of the woods, and I know that it's just hit close to home for a lot of people. Even though I'm in Washington, I know that when there's violence, it ripples out and it hits all of us and it impacts all of us. And so my heart's a little softer, a little heavier today. Coming in, looking at that.

You know, Marianne, I was at work, and I received a message from my daughter saying that she was in lockdown. She went to the university where Charlie Kirk was shot. And so you get that message, and instantly there's fear, but she says, I'm okay. They initially thought that they had the shooter apprehended, but that wasn't accurate. But, oh, my goodness, so much fear and. And a lot of internal stuff that's going on inside of me, personally. Anger, feeling violated in so many ways, and it's in my back door, and my daughter's having to. I mean, literally, she was in the. The courtyard where they were, and she had been invited to go there earlier. Fortunately, she went to visit some other friends, but she'd gone into a building, and a bunch of people came running in and said, hey, somebody got shot. And so they were in lockdown, actually, in the building where the shooter shot Charlie Kirk. So. So much fear and anger and frustration with our society. We've just got to be better. We really do. We've got to be better. It's just. It's heartbreaking.

And we're talking about one event that created so much trauma for so many people in so many ways, whether you're a parent. So I'm a parent of a student at a university, and of course, I think, oh, is my child safe? I also lived in Colorado, and I was in Denver right near when Columbine happened, the first school shooting that ever really occurred. And our world has significantly changed from that time. Today, it's 9, 11. This is a time and a season where there's a lot of. There's a lot of pain, and we often forget and move on, but there's so much grief and I think it's important to slow down and realize things happen that impact our lives irrevocably, that change how we see the world.

Marianne, maybe we should be focusing on grief and loss and how to respond when people have questions. How do I respond to this? What do I say to my children? What do I do with my own emotions at times like this? I think that's a great topic for us today.

I think so, too, Dr. Skinner. I think it's what we need.

So I'm just going to start off what you mentioned. 9, 11, and. And just the emotions of 24 years ago. I remember where I was at that Alan Jackson song. Do you remember? You know, when. Where were you? Right. And. And I remember I was in my car and I'm listening to the radio. I'm like, what in the world is going on? And subsequently, from that experience, I remember driving into work and everybody's glued to a tv and we're all in just shock, going home, and the silence of the air. No airplanes, which typically, I'll hear them as I'm walking or doing something, and no airplanes. And all of a sudden it felt like the world had changed. And I felt that again yesterday. I felt like the world of this stabilized safety happening in our own community. It just. It felt so violating. Talking with my children, one of my daughters said, I don't. I don't dare go home without my husband. Another one who was there. Just the emotions of. I never had a day like this. I still trying to make sense and meaning of the experience.

Yeah, I think that's part of when we experience something that our brain doesn't have a template for, we've never experienced this. We have no idea what to do with it. And that part of grief that we talk about, that numbness, that denial, a lot of times it's just. I don't even know what to do with this. I don't have words for it. I know. Something I've learned from you, Dr. Skinner, is when there's a tragedy, usually 80% of people freeze. That's a normal human response. I don't know what to do with this. I don't even know how to process it. Somebody will say, well, how do you feel about it? I have no idea how I feel about it. I can't even find emotions about it because my brain can't even make sense of what happened. 10% of people are helpful, and 10% of people make things worse who are not very good at dealing with tragic, unexpected things.

Yeah, you just identified what's referred to as the 108010 rule. And really, just clarification there. 80% of us do freeze. And then we dethaw, as they describe it. It's like we. We start to make sense of it at different paces. So our initial response in a highly stressful environment is to freeze. Right. It's like, well, I don't know what to do. And so yesterday, people were running. People asked, well, why didn't they apprehend? Or why didn't they chase the guy? Or, well, he was on the roof and nobody knew. Right there, everyone's running for safety. And so the 10% can assess the situation and evaluate and say, okay, this is what we need to do. But more often than not, we freeze. And that's where our trauma sets in. When we freeze and don't know how to respond. We don't have that language, as you just said, we don't have the language for what we're actually emotionally experiencing, experiencing. So one of the things that I talk with people about, after experiences like this before, we really can make sense of the experience, we need to sit with ourselves and understand our own emotions. What am I feeling? What am I experiencing? Just trying to make sense of it. And maybe you don't know right now, but just sit with yourself long enough to the point. Well, I can tell you yesterday I was actually angry. And I don't feel that kind of anger as I did yesterday. But my anger was absolutely legitimate and is real in me. And I think the anger was there because I felt that violation. I felt fear for my daughter, but also for our entire society because we want to do something about it, we want to stop it, we want to prevent it, but we don't know how, which is a sense of helplessness.

Yeah. So when we have that anger, if we can notice that anger, it's there, and it's usually covering something else up. And it takes a while to figure out, like, what is it. So I'm angry about protecting my daughters. I'm angry that my daughter was there. I'm angry that somebody would do that. I'm angry that that would make sense for somebody. We have all of these emotions. And one of the things I've learned from research is that even with death, if you're dealing with a family, a family who's dealing with death, the reactions of every family member are going to be different based on their relationship with death, based on their relationship of where they're at, where they're not at. And so some people might be really numb. Some people Might be kind of freaking out or really losing it in deep grief. So even in, in a family system, every single person usually is dealing with death or tragedy in a different place on the spectrum. Like, here's our spectrum and we're all in different places. And so even with something like this, especially with something like this, there's such a spectrum of emotion. I talked to a client recently and this news was so, so dysregulating. Another client yesterday who was talking with me about I'm sending my kid to kindergarten and all the fears of a young parent and what does the future mean? In my mind, it's really important for this conversation to see, can we take space and can we give ourselves and give others just some space and grace to let whatever show up show up. I was talking with a friend who they said, how are you doing, Marianne? How do you feel about it? And I started to express some things, and what I noticed is my friend wasn't ready to hear or to hold my emotions. And so recognizing not everybody's in the same place or even able to talk about it, we're all processing in our own different ways and we need compassion and grace for each other.

Yeah, and let me talk about that process, because as I was looking at dealing with traumatic responses post event, Right. So the event occurs and our different responses, one of the common themes is the best thing that we might do is actually make sense of it ourselves. So we might turn inward for a little bit and identify what am I feeling, what are the thoughts I have? Because in that process, it enables us to see what we are trying to communicate. Because if I just let myself go raw, just off the cuff, a person, as you said, they may not be ready to hear that because they're still processing their own stuff. I think it's important for us to begin by understanding our own self. So if you've experienced a traumatic event or you're trying to make sense of it, my suggestion, just tool number one, go sit with yourself with a journal and write the thoughts that come to your mind. And that then leads to more self awareness of the internalization I'm feeling, I'm experiencing. And in a raw way, I can say my anger, I can say my pain, I can allow myself to be real with myself. And that for me is almost always one of the first steps, unless you're in an environment where everyone's safe enough or comfortable enough with whatever emotions come out. Because as a culture, we know that some people's emotions overwhelm us. I find that often in my therapy office, when people are like, it's emotional overload. Your emotions are too much for me. And so then we shut down that. That communication that could happen. Not because I don't care, not because I don't love this person. It's. I don't know, it's overwhelming me emotionally. And I'm not in a space where I know how to hold those kind of emotions.

I'm reminded, Dr. Skinner, of years ago. We were in Missouri for Thanksgiving with all of our family, and we were staying in some condos, and there were some tornadoes that were coming through the town where we were. So there were all these tornado warnings. And so everybody that was in this whole complex had to go stay in this basement altogether. And I remember looking around the room and there were people who were, like, glued to the TV and who were really upset. And you could visibly see their anxiety. And then you could see people who were hunched over against the wall, kind of trying to take their time. It was interesting to look around the room and see all of these people that were facing fear together. We have this uncertainty, this natural disaster heading our way, tracking it, sitting in this space. Everyone there was dealing with it in a different way. And so, as you say, hey, take some time. Sit with yourself. I'm wondering, Dr. Skinner, I'm wondering, what if I sit with myself and I don't feel anything? What do I do with that? Because I can hear our listeners going, yeah, if I do that, I'm numb. I'm not. I don't feel anything. What do I do there?

There's three or four parts to this process. Sometimes I'm not familiar with my own emotions and my own feelings, and that's okay. I would suggest to stay in that space because it's an uncomfortable space. Normally, if I'm uncomfortable with emotions, I'm going to distract myself away from my emotions. I don't want to feel this. I don't want to think it. So I might turn to unhealthy coping strategies as an example, because I don't want to feel emotions. So one of the strategies is, it's not right or wrong. Let's just have an emotion and let's wait if it doesn't come. It's not going to come. But if you sit long enough, thoughts will come to your mind. So, Marianne, I think, number one is just sit a little bit longer. If number two, you're not sure what you're feeling, then just write whatever thought comes to your mind. Whatever emotion, whatever it is that comes to your Mind number three. Look inside of your body. Attuned to the body. Physiologically, I am tense, I am tight. I am surprisingly calm. So now I'm listening to the body, and then the body might tell me what I'm experiencing. Well, I want to fight or I want to flee or I want to. Man, I just want to curl up in a ball. That's your body speaking. So listen to what it's saying. Either physically pause if whatever the emotions are, I'm uncomfortable with them, or if I'm not having them, just sit a little bit longer with them. And then a fourth possibility here. If nothing's coming up, and that's where you can say, can I just talk with you? And that's where you would get into a group situation where you as a group might communicate and somebody might say, well, I'm thinking this or I'm feeling this. I feel that way, too. So you might get group think to help you give a voice to some of the things that they're experiencing that you resonate with.

Oh, I love that, Dr. Skinner. I think about especially that last part that you talked about. I know that after traumatic events, traumatic instances, if you can have what they call like a debrief, even for just a couple of minutes, for people who are there just to say, hey, here's what's going on with me. Here's. Here's some emotions. I think that vulnerability, even if it's showing up and saying, I don't know what I'm feeling right now. I'm feeling kind of numb, giving words to where we're at in our experience, without shame, just with vulnerability, I'm kind of numb. I'm trying to figure this out, or I have a lot of anger right now. I'm really feeling protective and worried about my kids or whatever it is that's coming up. I think having that space is so important, and. And I really believe that I might not have the words. I might not even know. But then when somebody else says, oh, I'm feeling this, my body and brain may react and go, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. That's it. Those are the words. But I didn't. I couldn't find them. I didn't know it. But, oh, yeah, that's it. And my body can respond to that, and it helps me because I'm honoring what I'm feeling. I just may not have had the words for that.

Many years ago, my friend, Dr. David Robinson, you know David, he did his dissertation on individuals who had chronic cancer. In other words, they had cancer that would most likely take their lives. But the dissertation was very interesting. They got volunteers of individuals before their death to bring a family in. And what they would do is they would externalize the cancer. And this is a really powerful tool, what he found. So you externalize it. So you take it and put it on a brick or a rock or something. And every family member then would talk about the cancer like it was this externalized rock or brick, just as an example. I think this is a very valuable time when, if we could do that, we'd say, how are you making sense of this event? And if we talked, everybody could say, I'm feeling this. I'm experiencing this. And then the next person said, and this is how I'm seeing it. Much like the cancer, I think then we're going to see an experience of understanding one another's emotions. And that, to me, is one of the more important components in a situation like this, because we don't want to be isolated, and we don't want to be alone. And here's the concept, alone with media. And let me explain that concept, Marianne. This really brings me back to an interview that I did with Dr. LeDoux after 9 11, many years ago. I'd read where he talked about how we can get stuck in a state of mind in a traumatic experience. And after 9 11, he said, we had an increase in anxiety and an increase in hopelessness because we didn't know how to respond. So what we did is we sat and watched the television hour after hour after hour after hour after hour, not knowing how to respond. What do I do? Am I safe? Is my family safe? Is our community safe? Is our country safe? And if you watch something that consistently is the same thing over and over again, it reinforces that experience in the mind. Now, let me go back to research that they were doing with rats at the time. He said, we would take rats and we would put him in. In a cage. And if they stayed in the same area, they would get shocked. But if they moved to the corner, any one of the corners, the shock would either go down significantly or not be there at all. He said, initially, they. Every one of them got shocked. But then we would put them in a cage where, if they moved to the side. And he said, I watched the new neural pathway develop in the rat's brain. They watched it. They element. They watched as they moved, as they took action is the phrase he used. And he said, what we learned from the rats is when they learned that there was a possibility of not being shocked, they began to take action. And he said, so what my suggestion after 911 was is to step back and turn off the television. So literally turn off the television, get up off the couch. And metaphorically, he said, move on with your life. And the concept for me really stood to be true because if I sit in a state of frozen nuts and I don't do anything, then I'm. It literally then is more likely to control my thoughts and I'm more likely to ruminate about it. I'm more likely to focus on that rumination which can create feelings of hopelessness and helplessness. So taking action is what he discovered is one of the more critical things that can occur after a traumatic.

Oh, that brings to mind two great researchers in the Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk. There's an image that he has, he's talking about that taking action. And it's school children who drew pictures. And in the pictures, there was a body, you know, falling out of the building, and the child had put a trampoline underneath it. And. And I, if I remember right, that's where Bessel Vandercook was talking about taking action. Like, here's something that can be done. This child was saying, yes, this happened, but, hey, here's a solution. Here's. Here's something to fix this. And then going over to Peter Levine, he talks about that need for movement, if we can move our body. And I think even if it's that connecting and verbalizing and having something happen rather than staying in that frozen state, because our body, when we talk about fight, flight or freeze, it's that frozen state. That's where the hopelessness happens. And so I heard you talking, Dr. Skinner, about I'm angry. And in that anger, there's this powerlessness. So I'm wondering, I'm going to put you on the spot here, but I'm wondering for you, how do you move? What are you compelled or moved to do after this event with Charlie Kirk yesterday?

So, Marianne, to answer your question, anger is one of my emotions. The next they're coupled together is a sadness. A sadness, as I said, for our society. I feel deeply sad for our society, where we feel that that is an option and how unhealthy we are as a society and the fear that such behaviors produce. So I feel sad for our entire society, seeing the anxiety, feeling the anxiety. But my anger is actually turning into action. Like tomorrow I'm going to be talking with a group of individuals to go be present with them as they talk about their trauma. From the event and the experiences, individuals who may have been in attendance. So tomorrow I have the opportunity to go be proactive in talking with people who are suffering in their way and giving them ideas to help them navigate through this emotional experience. So for me, I turn it into action. Something I can create, something I can do to help other people. And my goal in life is to help society be better and to help people who are suffering out of difficult times like this. Help them make meaning of their experiences, giving them tools and resources. A language. As I often say in the healing journey, to give a language to what you're experiencing is extremely important. So for me it's, if I stayed in the anger, then I would be stuck and that's not who I want to be. I'm not going to sit back and be a victim of events like this. I refuse to. And so for me it's how can I contribute? What can I do? How can I respond in a meaningful way? And that's this podcast today. That's why the focus tomorrow is going to be sitting with people who may have been in attendance there and, and giving them an opportunity to talk. So, yes, very proactive in saying, how can I help? Last night, religiously to reach out to me and said, hey, can you do anything to support and help? And so I recorded a five minute audio that was shared with hundreds of people. I'm being proactive. I'm not going to sit on my hands at times like this. Let's give people tools and resources. And, and that's how I'm responding is being proactive.

You know, what that brings to mind for me is, well, what if I'm not Dr. Skinner, I'm not going and talking to big groups of people. That's the kind of question that as I was hearing you, I could hear some of our listeners maybe saying, well, yeah, but what about me? What would I do with that? And, and I think my response to that question would be the events that have been happening are traumatic and tragic and, and whether it's this or whether it's my neighbor's son died of cancer or whatever it is, I think that it's a, can we move out of our space, out of our shell and just connect with our neighbor and say, how are you doing? How are you doing with this? I know that I don't live in Utah. It's impacted me. I have clients across multiple states that we've been talking about this. It impacts all of us because we are a system, because we're human beings. And we need each other. And so no matter how distant the impact, sitting down and maybe having the conversations of. Help me understand for you, how has this impacted you? What's going on for you? I think that's a simple. Maybe not simple, but that's something that all of us can't do if maybe we're not speaking to hundreds or thousands, but we can just start where we're at.

Yeah. And so knowing where we're at, that's why my first step is to sit with yourself and take time to make sense of your experience. The best you. The best you can. And you might not have a language for it yet. That's why it may be helpful to get into a group. But once you understand your emotions, you're more likely to be able to be with other people's emotions. So I may say, I also feel anger, or I also feel sad. Tell me about what the sad is for you. Or give a voice to that anger. We don't want to suppress the emotion. We want to express the emotion. And that part of it is so incredibly important because we're so afraid of expression. What if they can't handle it? Well, if I'm prepared, I sit back and see the suffering. This is where, as a society, we can be more compassionate, see the story, see this person sitting in front of you, listen to their story, their challenges, and the way they're perceiving this experience. And if we can do that, then I'm more capable. If I understood my own emotions first, then I can go be with others and allow them to express their feelings, their fears, their sadness, their anger, their. Whatever it may be. Then in that process, they have let it out. And we're literally creating a community of understanding and awareness of this collective experience. And then people may say, so what do we do? Well, guess what? You already did it. You gave it a voice. You gave a voice to those who didn't. And you recognized it and you shared your.

Yeah, let me flip that. I wanna flip to the other side. I think an equal part of showing up is showing up and saying, I don't know what to do. I'm hurting, I'm struggling, I'm in pain. I'm having a really hard time with this. Can you be there with me? Can you help me? That. That's the whole other side that. That I wanna make sure that we're addressing, because that. That takes courage to say, I'm stuck and I'm struggling. And sometimes we do just need somebody to come and be with us. They won't have the words. I don't have the words, but can you just be there?

Yeah. And now you're talking about a soothing without words process. So can I have a hug? And aware that I need a hug, or I just need you to be in my presence. I just need to be with you. Yes. Those are the specific things that we're looking for. So we're looking to soothe our autonomic nervous system or regulate that autonomic nervous system. And we're trying to do it collectively where if I took the stress levels in my county yesterday, they would have been off the charts high.

Marianne.

It was literally an act of terrorism, that kind of intensity. And so if I would have taken all of our stress levels, we all experienced it, and that's where we collectively, can we make sense of this experience? Can we communicate with each other? Can we listen to each other? And. And my hope is that we understand we need to take down the rhetoric, we need to take down this negativity, and we need to speak of people in positive ways. And yes, I understand people have differences of opinion, but never, ever do we need to solve problems with violence.

I want to go. I want to go back to our podcast last week where we were talking about the media. We were talking about distractions, and you talked about this earlier about watching the Twin Towers and how that looped. And we can go to media and we can see things just over and over and over. For me, with 9 11, I am so grateful. I did not have TV at the time, and I had a friend who worked with the airlines who called and said, hey, turn on your TV right now. And I was like, well, that won't work. I turned on the radio and was able to hear. But one of the things that, for me, I've learned is it's more helpful for me to take a step back from media, even though there's the fear. Am I okay? And so we want to gravitate towards, hey, let me get as much information as I can. Recognizing that media isn't always helpful in helping me sort through my emotions. Oftentimes it's aimed at. I hate to say this, but it's about ratings. It's about getting the listeners. And so it can be sensationalized or it can be twisted or utilized for lots of different reasons. There's always bias behind media. And so taking a step back and taking some time and saying, maybe I'm just gonna let this settle. I don't want all of the images. I don't want all of. All of this information, I don't need every detail right now. I'm gonna let things settle, and then maybe I can figure out how much I really need or want. I think it can be helpful just to give ourselves, once again, more time and space and recognize. Do I need to be more agitated? Do I need more anxiety? Is what I'm watching returning to helping me? Is it helping me calm, or is it helping me create more fear and more anxiety and more distrust? So, really looking at what we're bringing into our space, especially in these times, are they things that help soothe my autonomic nervous system, or are they things that distress it?

In this situation, I don't need more stress. I found myself today reading some of the comments, some of the commentary. I had to shut it down. I found myself like, I can't. I can't go there. It's just too. People are speaking without understanding. And so I had to pull back and say, that's not where my time and energy is going to go. I have to be productive here in terms of focusing so I can help and aid people. And I think that's important for all of us because we can get stuck in that loop. As Dr. LeDoux said, I can sit and watch the planes fly into the Twin Towers, or I could stay and watch her and read those things. What they. What they do for me is they get my autonomic nervous system, as you mentioned earlier, higher and higher. Higher level of, I'm ready to fight, I'm ready to flee. We're not safe, right? In reality, the better me is the thinking up here, what can I do to help in this situation? And that's how we get unstuck from that 1080, 10 rule. That's how we do it, is we pause to reflect and look at what. What can I do? I can get up off this couch. I can move forward.

I want to check something with you. As you were saying that, I thought, wait a second. There's a concept that I often talk with my clients about called pain shopping. And this pain shopping is where I'll go and I'll seek something. I know that it's going to bring up some intense emotions for me, but I'm going to go look for it, and intentionally, or I might get sucked in there, but suddenly I'm looking at something that I know is going to bring up some intense pain. As you were Talking about that, Dr. Skinner. What makes sense for me with pain shopping is I think sometimes when we're stuck, where we feel numb or frozen, that might Be a time where we say, oh, if I go over here, this will help me raise up some emotions, and maybe that will help me shift from a place of frozen powerlessness to, at least now I've got some energy. At least now I've got some anger or some hurt or something. It's giving me something. And so I want to validate that that's something that I think that we might naturally find ourselves doing, is we're seeking something, whether it's to make sense or meaning or whether it's to help move our. Our autonomic state. Being able to recognize and say, hold on a second, is this helpful? Is there another way? I've got to figure out another way. Does that fit for you? How does that make sense for you?

Yeah, it makes sense because what you're saying is I might be in a frozen state, numb, and I want to feel something. So I might go, as you say, pain shopping, because I want to feel something. If I stayed there, if I stayed in that space and watched those videos or those comments, I would guarantee you I would be in an angry state the longer I was there. So I could be because I wanted to something. I paused and realized that I can't go down that rabbit hole there. That's not where my mind needs to go. So, Marianne, there's one other part that I'd like to share today, and it is the importance of creating community and avoiding loneliness at times like this or isolation at times like this because of fear. Our natural instinct is to pull away from. That's what fear and terror does, is it gets us to isolate and pull away from. That's exactly the opposite of what our body and our minds need. So that being said, we need connection in the right environment. We also need to understand the power of vulnerability. I'm gonna go back to a concept. If we speak our truth, then another person hears our truth, and that vulnerability can open them up. So you may ask somebody, how are you doing? They may say, I don't know how to make sense of this. Then you may say, I've been thinking about it, and I was initially where you were. And for me, I'm feeling fear, I'm feeling anger, and I'm feeling sadness. My sadness comes from society. My anger is, why did. How could this happen? And my fear is for my community. Are we safe? Because I was open and expressed those, I might be able to hear from this person. Oh, that makes sense. I'm also feeling. So we might get into a situation where we can help people open up. By our willingness to be vulnerable. And that's one of the core concepts I would encourage us to do. We need community right now more than ever. We don't need isolation. We need to understand each other and support each other. That's how we fight against this fear based behavior.

I think my wrap up for Today with this Dr. Skinner comes from one of my childhood heroes, Fred Rogers, also known as Mr. Rogers. And you may recall one of one of my favorite quotes from him. And for those of you who are old enough, which might be a lot of people because I know aired for years, but if you can imagine Mr. Rogers in his soothing, kind voice just saying sometimes bad things happen. And when bad things happen, we don't need to be scared, but we look for the helpers. There are always helpers. And so my wrap up for today is first of all, that my heart goes out to any of our listeners or viewers whose hearts may be heavy right now, who are grappling, Dr. Skinner, especially for you and your community and, and healing takes time. And I invite you to look for the helpers and to be the helpers because we all need, as you said, to come together. We need to be helpers and we need to find helpers. That's how we heal. It's through connection rather than isolation. So thank you for, for being here and for, especially for this discussion today, Dr. Skinner.

And thank you, thank you to our listeners. We hope that today's podcast gives you some ideas on how you can make sense of what this experience is and what it means to you. The way we overcome fear, the way we overcome terrorism or whatever violence it may be, is we bond together. And we refuse to not allow that to control us. We choose connection. We choose to be open. We choose to think through our own emotions so we can bond in meaningful ways. That's ultimately human intimacy at its best when we don't let fear control us. All right, thank you, Marianne, for time to our listeners, may you be blessed in your journey and we will look forward to seeing you again next week.

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