Navigating the Early Stages of Sexual Betrayal Trauma: Understanding, Healing, and Support (Podcast #34)

Something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh.

Welcome to the human intimacy podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with you with my friend and colleague Marianne Michaelis. Maryanne, how are you today?

I'm good. I feel like I answer the same answer every time. And I think, how can I answer this differently? But here I am again. I'm. I'm really excited about the topic we're going to be talking about today, because I've been seeing it show up in my office recently. So I'm glad to be here to have a conversation. Thank you.

You know, and then let me introduce this just as a short introduction. One of the core things that we find is that people seek us out sometimes. It's in the very early phase of experiencing sexual betrayal. So they've just. I mean, it's like they're deer in the headlight look of. I have no idea what to do. If it was a car crash. They're in shock. I think that's probably the best way we put this. They're in shock. And. And what do you do with someone in shock, Someone who's just discovered their partner's hidden sexual behaviors or some secretive behavior that. That they've wondered about, but now they have the information. What do we do in that situation? So today we're really wanting to speak to. You've just learned about your partner's sexual betrayal, infidelity, whatever it may be. Where do you start?

What a great introduction, Dr. Skinner, because I want to just start out for our listeners just acknowledging the pain that shows up in this space and that this can be a really tender topic that we're talking about today. It can be raw and there can be a lot of emotions because so often I have clients show up and they're just like, I have no idea what to do. Just tell me what I need to do. Because I have no idea. My whole world just completely blew up, and I. Everything I trusted, I can't trust anymore. And I am just feels like I'm in a whirlwind, and I can't even figure out which way's up, you know.

And going along that line, I often find that individuals in that state of shock, they don't know to turn right or to turn left. They don't know who to tell, who not to tell. They're emotionally. In a. Just an emotionally raw place. And honestly, they begin to question who. Who can I trust who's reliable? And. And some situations I've seen people do go a couple different Directions. Some people just completely shut down and avoid people, places, situations across the board. They just stop talking to everybody. Even even trusted friends or family members they've stopped trusting or opening up to. And then there are people who want to go get the billboard and broadcast it on their Facebook account and their Instagram account or whatever it is. And it. And so I've seen people go to two very different extremes, but that's probably not most of our listeners. My guess is most of the individuals that we're going to be talking to have no idea where to start, but they're looking for resource. Where can I begin this journey? Because I don't know what to do. I don't know what to. And I think that that's probably one of the more common things that I've observed in my career.

Yeah. And it's your example of those two. Two extremes is, is interesting to me. Part of my own story is as a betrayed partner 27 years ago, finding out that I'd been betrayed, I collapsed. I collapsed. And then when I started to try and make sense of things, what happened for me was this belief like, okay, now I have to put on my big girl pants. This is. We don't air our dirty laundry. We don't talk about this. So as you're talking about that isolation, that avoidance, I absolutely went into that. I had no idea. Just like we're talking about today, I had no idea who could I talk to about this? What are even the words? I'd never heard the word betrayal trauma before. I had no idea. I just had found out that my husband been using porn. And so I had no idea where to go. However, the, the, the alternate or this other extreme that you talked about, Fast forward my story. Seventeen years later I was on Facebook and someone had posted I am the wife of a porn addict. And they shared their story. And because they shared that story, there were some resources they had linked to and that was what helped me find the resources for my own healing. So when I saw those words that that person posted, I thought, what freedom. That person has freedom because they're not hiding. For 17 years I had been in isolation because I didn't have words, I didn't know who to talk to. There was a lot of shame. I felt like I needed to protect my spouse. And so I really felt like I went through a lot of superficial. A lot of my relationships felt like they were superficial because I couldn't show up because I was carrying the secret.

And let's talk a little bit about that secretive Part because it's interesting, the work of Dr. James Pennebaker. In his book Opening up, he refers to this idea of what happens when we have stories or experiences that we cannot share, that we can't, cannot open up or talk about. And ultimately what begins to happen when you can't share a story, it physically has a impact on your, on your well being, physical well being and emotional well being. So he found when we can't talk about certain experiences again, we're more likely to have physical ailments and we're beginning to have emotional depression, anxiety, because we don't feel like we can be congruent with the people that we would like to be congruent with.

Yeah, as I started my own personal journey, you know, I started one book and it said get divorced right now. And I, and I was like, I'm not quite sure about this. I'm just starting in here. But the second book that I picked up is called what Can I Do About Me? It's by Real Croshaw. And I wanted to share with you or share with our listeners what she talks about, about the shame that you're, that you've just been talking about. Because what I found is when I found healthy resources, they spoke to me and they validated what I was going through. They gave me words for what I didn't know, that I didn't know. But she talks about, she says sexual addicts and their afflicted spouses often experience toxic shame, a belief that they are flawed, unworthy or bad people. Because of the behaviors, this type of shame creates isolation, fear, hiding, minimizing, and a host of other unhealthy behaviors. And you know, Patrick Carnes, in his book the Betrayal Bond, he talks about the power of reading something in silence, in quiet, that's not in a therapy office and it's not in a group. But reading something and having it just resonate with you. It's, it's the things that we're not ready maybe to say out loud or to acknowledge, but when we read them, they can just reverberate through. And so reading something and saying, oh, this is validating that all these thoughts of shame that I'm not, I'm not worthy, I'm not enough, I'm not XYZ enough reading that says, oh, wait a second, I'm normal.

And, and that's one of the things that I found in the research that I've gathered over the past 20 plus years is we begin putting out this assessment and, and then getting the feedback and Then for the first time, as I started looking at the data, I was so surprised at the profound trauma because really, we had no idea. Right. 20 years ago, we had no idea the influence of, you know, the difference. Pornography, sexual betrayal, infidelity, whatever the experience was, we didn't know. You know, does pornography trigger the similar emotions to infidelity, and does it trigger the same emotions if your partner is acting out in other sexual ways, hiring sex workers, whatever it may be? We didn't know because we didn't have the research to support this. And so as we began gathering the data and I started looking at, you know, ways that partners acted out, and then looked at the post traumatic stress symptoms that we recognized as occurring in, in our clients and, and the people who are taking these assessments. As we started gather, gathering more and more information and then I started putting it out there, I was absolutely stunned. And how many people said, you're giving a voice to what I've been experiencing for X amount of time. And the next person, I can't believe somebody actually understands me. And you begin to realize, wow, what I'm experiencing, not as you said earlier, Marianne, not only am I not alone, but this is, this is normal, this is common. Other people experience this. Well, I tell you what, so many times I heard over and over and over again. I've received emails, I've received letters. You saved my life. I'm like, well, I don't even know how I saved your life, but what, what happened? And really the story is it gave a voice to what I've been feeling. And I have had no language up to this point until now. I understand what I'm experiencing is normal, common, whatever you want to say. And that's a huge, huge awareness for people who are experiencing this to realize, you know, 7 out of 10 people who've been betrayed, they experience these symptoms of nightmares, flashbacks, triggers, avoiding people, places or situations. And I could keep on going with the symptoms, but once you start outlining them, they're like, oh, my gosh, you're speaking my language. What I'm experiencing.

Yeah, you're giving them ground for their reality. Their reality blew up and now you're giving space to make sense of, oh, here's my new reality. So I, I think this is a really good place, Dr. Skinner, to maybe talk about the history of betrayal, trauma and where it's come from. Because I know there have been some really major shifts and changes, especially in my life. Not knowing where to go, not having a name for it, and seeing suddenly there's A plethora of literature and research and everything about that. Do you want to talk about kind of how that's transpired? Because I know you talked about your assessments and you've been really involved in a lot of the research.

Yeah, if I could just start with, you know, when we look at the history. It wasn't really until 2005, 2006, that Barbara Steffens and Robin Rennie produced the first research based article. And I say, I emphasize research based article. There were people before that who were saying, witnessing post traumatic stress symptoms in infidelity and sexual betrayal. But in reality, there was no research to support it. And so we were using as a field, as a field, we were using more of a codependency model. And that codependency, which we typically talk about if someone's dealing with any addictive behavior, historically we have used a codependency model. Did I enable a behavior?

Yeah, I just, I just want to also clarify. One of the words I hear clients come in with, with that is that they call themselves or identify as a co addict. So they say codependency or a co addict, saying, this is part of mine that I'm owning as well.

And, and that just did not fit well with my, I mean, what I was experiencing in my office. I mean, if you've been hit, hiding behavior, gaslit for, for sometimes decades, how in the world could you be. Even that phrase feels offensive. Co addict. Right. I mean, it just somehow I'm enabling a behavior. I knew, or I, whatever it is, I enable this. And, and how, how can you possibly do that when you have no idea what's going on? It just made no logical sense to me. So I was talking with a colleague of mine and this goes back to 20, probably 2002, 2003. And, and she's like, hey man, I don't know about you. And I had just experienced a time where with one of my clients, I'm like, I had no idea what she was going through because there was no training on it. There was absolutely zero training on it. We were talking, I mean, we were, in my mind, the Internet had just come around and we were infants in understanding how the Internet was going to change our careers and life and people. I mean, there was very little talk about pornography as a potentially addictive behavior or hypersexuality or hyper compulsivity. I mean, we weren't even talking about that. And all of a sudden, with the Internet, all of a sudden we started seeing a tremendous caseload shift and, and People who may have had marital conflict before. Now they're coming in, they're saying, I caught my partner doing this, or I caught my partner doing this. And we started seeing this. I. I don't know what you want to call it. An avalanche of just case after case. In fact, I remember this is late 90s, this is late 90s, and we were sitting in a meeting identifying, because the people call in, and then, you know, the receptionist takes a little bit of information and then pass it on. And then we have a meeting to define, you know, determine who's going to meet with these clients. One day in particular, I was interested because we had 11 referrals, 11 new people coming into the clinic. And I started counting one after the other after the other, sexual pornography use or other other unwanted sexual behaviors. Seven of the 11 that day in the 90s was related to some form of sexual betrayal. And at that time, I, you know, I'm like, okay, this is a unique case. Religious context, maybe. And then, and then it just started blowing up more and more. By the time I get to 2002, 2003, I mean, these are regular clients. And, and we had no training on it, None. And so as I continue down that pathway, and I bumped into my colleague and she said, I don't know about you, but I think that what they're experiencing at the time, she called it Post Traumatic Relationship Disorder. PTRD was a term she used, but really it was the PTSD symptoms. And that's what she said it was. So I said, well, let's find out. So we put together, wrote an assessment. Dr. Shondell Knowlton and Dr. Jill Manning, the three of us put together this assessment and it's been tweaked over the years, but in 2019, we actually published this assessment, and it is now a reliable, valid assessment that's being used by professionals all over the world. And so when I start looking at this story, it's evolved from early 20, you know, 2002, 0304. There is no literature. And then we get Barbara Steffens, Robin Rennie, first article, 2006. And that really got my mind going. Okay, we've really got to emphasize, because my sample was growing, I now have over 15, 20,000 people who've completed this assessment. And it's not a guesswork anymore. I can say, you know what, at least 6 out of 10 are experiencing post traumatic stress symptoms. But if we take, you know, and if I was to go over the specific symptoms themselves, I'd say criteria B, which is reliving it. Criteria C is avoiding people, places or situations or avoiding your own thoughts. That's what we call criteria C. Criteria D is. Is really related to negative cognitions. The way you speak to yourself. You talked about your shame earlier.

Yeah, right.

That internalized shame. You know, what's wrong with me? Am I not enough? Am I. If I was xyz, then this wouldn't have happened. That internalization. That's criteria D. Somehow I'm a failure. And then criteria E is, the mind is racing. I can't slow it down. And, and really you start looking at those symptoms. And if you look at the just those four that I've just outlined, we're talking upwards of 75 to 80% of individuals are experiencing those sometime more. And I'm not talking a small sample, I'm talking now 15, 20,000 people. That's the story they're telling.

That's significant.

And it absolutely is significant. And that wasn't being talked about. And that's really why, I don't know, maybe that's why that taught. This topic matters so much to me. Because I've trained people literally around the world. I've been to Europe, I've trained down in Mexico or down in South America, up in, up in Canada, and over and over again, people are like, really? I had no idea. Religious leaders included. I. I did a thing in Florida a few years ago and religious leaders came afterwards and said, I had no idea. No idea.

Yeah, I was at a training or not a training. I was at the. I think it's UCAP, the Utah Coalition Against Pornography, probably in 2017. And standing at a booth and some religious leaders came through and I said, hey, I was providing some information on betrayal trauma. And I had several people say that, that I don't know any that doesn't happen. I was like, oh, goodness. Boy, there's a lot of. There has been. I appreciate everything that you shared because there's been a lot of just not knowing because it was so new and the Internet blew up and. But there's been this definite progression, you know, as you talked about that, that codependency and that co addict theory. I do remember somebody said to me, well, the reason why, like they said, you're a code co addict and you're attracted to your husband because of, because of your own damage in your childhood or something. And boy, it felt like somebody had just punched me in the gut when I was already down. So not just a gut punch, but I, I think it's important to recognize right here this space that we're talking about, there are, there has been a lot of misinformation and there are a lot of people who don't know who they'll say, well, why don't you just have more sex with your husband? Why don't you spice it up a little bit? Like, well, well meaning, but very misinformed and very damaging.

Well, and if we take that to the next phase of that, because when you start to hear that, then you begin to question yourself. Am I, am I misperceiving? Am I overreacting? What is it that I must, you know, again, internalization. How do I change the outcome then? Yeah, and then that internalization is actually where I see a lot of people get stuck because. Or again, early on you get misinformation. We typically respond to how should a person or how person respond to this? And when we don't understand, then we basically take information from people who, that maybe they're what I refer to as the who said somebody who, who has the authority or has whatever. And okay, maybe I just need, do need to spice it up in the bedroom. I can't tell you even how many therapists have misguided clients by not acknowledging, not being aware of the trauma that it creates. And now if I go to anybody and I say, look, I wanted to share with you the data, and I just sometimes just say, I want, I want to tell you a story. And this is a story of 15 to 20,000 people. Here is how they're experiencing whatever the form of betrayal is. Now I want you to tell me, this is their story. Here's the data. How do you make sense of it? And that's, and that's a, if you look at the data, it speaks to itself because whether these are intern or people who've come in for therapy or these are people who are filling it out online who are just seeking for help, it doesn't matter the sample, whether they're in therapy or not in therapy. And it doesn't matter religion, it doesn't matter economics. I mean, everybody across the border is showing the PTSD symptoms at least. And I say 6 out of 10 because the criteria A, I haven't, we haven't talked about. And that is actually a threat to life. And, and in my career, I've identified situations and cases. I supervise therapists all over the country. And I can't tell you how many times people have said they discovered their partner sexually acting out when they went to the doctor and found out they had an STI or STD now, what a. What a way to get a disclosure when you've been faithful and all of a sudden you go to the doctor and something's wrong and you get diagnosed with an std.

Yeah, it's devastating.

In shock. Absolutely. So, again, I. There is a reality. And. And so if you're just experiencing this and you're just. I hope as you go through this with us, I hope that you feel heard and understood and validated. That's our goal today, is to really help in the earliest phase, to help you feel like you're not alone. But I also want to speak to those who've already experienced betrayal and are now looking back. I wonder what advice you would give to yourself. What would you say to that you. Earlier, you. What advice would you give to her or to him about how you could go through this more efficiently or more effectively? I'd love to hear your answers to that question. So if you're listening, do me a favor, shoot us an email. Questions, human intimacy.com. i would love to hear what advice you would give to yourself. If you've experienced sexual betrayal. What would you say to yourself? And maybe down the road, we'll have a future podcast with your wisdom of what advice you would give.

That would be so beautiful.

I mean, I would love to hear if I could sit down with our listeners and say, all right, what advice would you give to yourself? What would you say? I need to do more of this or I need to do less of that? I mean, I would just love to hear what advice you'd give to yourself.

You know, because I'm in this situation, I think that's part of the reason today for this podcast for me, is seeing clients showing up saying, I don't know and what do I do? And the first thing that I would probably say to my previous self would be that there's hope and there's resources and you're not alone. And so, you know, as somebody's world falls apart, just knowing that there is hope and there's a way to get through this and there's some resources, like sometimes that's. We just need something to cling on to there. There's got to be something to get to make it through this, you know, And.

And let me address something you said, because I. I want to address a question that I would typically get from a client right there, and it's okay. You mean I'll be okay or my relationship will be okay? And I want to differentiate the healing, individual healing. There are things that you may need to do. We'll talk about. We've talked about boundaries in other podcasts. We've talked about things that you can do to really reclaim that self identity, the relationship. I really encourage you to put a question mark on it. And what I mean by that is in my book, rebuild your relationship after sexual betrayal, I begin with the first chapter of saying the first process is actually a concept called orienting. And it's actually what happens to deer when, you know, you bump into a deer in. In, you know, public lands. The first thing they do is they pause and they don't move. They don't fight, they don't flee. They orient themselves, in other words, asking, are you a threat? What I would like to invite everyone to consider here is we need to gather information. What's happened and who is this person and what does this mean for our relationship and what are we going to do moving forward? Because what we've been doing obviously isn't going to work moving forward. So how do we do this? So the concept of orienting, really important concept.

I agree with that so much. And I think it's tricky sometimes because I have clients come to me and say, I've been snooping. Like that criteria E of ptsd, that hyper vigilance, sometimes orienting. Or it can feel like we're orienting when we are just trying to figure out, am I safe? And so now I'm going to search through everything that I can find. And it's the inquisition, because I'm just trying to find out what I don't know. And I just want to clarify that's. That's more of a PTSD reaction than an orienting reaction.

Right. And what I would say there is you still have to gather information. Right. Because I. In the orienting phase, you're gathering information, Is this a threat? Who is this person? What happened? And you're asking a lot of questions. And so in this early phase, you're going to have so many questions. I mean, in fact, I've often heard couples say, I just, there's too many questions. That's from the person who is acting out. I can't respond to them all. It's one after the next after the next after the next, and we're talking until 2 or 3 in the morning. That's probably the most common story that I hear right after discovery.

Yeah. Can I. There's an analogy that I use with my clients, and it's called being hit by a truck. And if you can imagine a spouse running along, I'll use a Female in this case. But running along the side of a truck and seeing, like, the windows are foggy and the truck's up on the lawn and going, hey, honey, you're on the neighbor's lawn. Get back on the road. What's going on? And trying to get attention and, And. And that' Usually when a partner's going, something's going on, but I don't know quite what it is. Or there was something in the past. So, honey, are you okay? So run along the side of the truck. And at some point in this journey, they get hit by that truck. And the person driving the truck, you know, opens the door and gets out. It's like, oh, my goodness, I don't know what's going on. That was horrible. And I need to go get some help. And they go off and get some help. But the person who just got hit by that truck, like that orienting of their. They have no idea what just hit them. They have no idea what happened, and they're just spinning. And usually they're not really in a place to take care of or help or hold the hand of the person who just hit them with the truck. They've got to do a lot of trauma surgery. They may be in the hospital for a while. But one of the hard things about our society where we don't talk about this is it often feels like, oh, I gotta get up and I gotta go take a meal over to the neighbors, or I've got to go to the PTA meeting, or I've got to do whatever. And so, boy, that confusion sure can get internalized and turn into. I just don't know where I feel safe anywhere. And I have no idea where my up is.

Well, and if. If you keep going with that, then I'm pretending like everything's okay. I'm going to those PTA meetings or I'm going to whatever. Taking that to the meal. And I'm putting on a smile because I don't want. I don't know what to say. I don't know who to turn to. And yet I still have to function even with my own children. I have to put on this happy face when in inside I'm just weeping and trying to put on the best face I possibly can for my kiddos.

And then take that one step deeper. Then I feel like I'm a bad mom because I wasn't present. Then I feel like I was a bad PTA board member because I didn't follow through with what I was going to because I was not Even listening to what was being said and couldn't, couldn't.

I was in shock, right? I mean, when we have that kind of experience, we don't know what we're experiencing because it's just. And we're numb. And I think that that's a really good way to describe this process. In that initial phase, there is a deep numbness. And really, how do we. Dethaw, how do we come out of that numbness? I think it's with information, appropriate information, and, and being cautious. And I want to, want to bring up one point here. When we go to people and we open up with them, there are some people who will understand, they will be compassionate, and then there will be other people who will tell you how to live your life. You should finish the sentence, leave, stay. It doesn't matter which version, you should. And the moment somebody says you should, that's probably not the person that's going to help guide you long term because ultimately the first thing they should be saying, and this is where our society has messed this up so bad. How can I help? I'm here. What are you experiencing? That open minded, I want to understand, leads to so much more of an effective outcome than somebody who says, this is what you need to do.

You know, just leading right into that. I think getting qualified help is so important. I have a lot of clients who show up in my office who may have gone to a therapist who says, I've worked with people who've had sex addiction or betrayal trauma before, but they, they didn't actually have any training in it. They just worked with some people who'd gone through that. But I, I will never forget a client who showed up in my office and she couldn't even sit up. She was like lying sideways. And I was like, this is kind of different, but what's going on? And the first thing she said is, are you going to tell me that I have to forgive my husband, that I can't get divorced? And that's what she started with. She said, the therapist that I've been with, he's a doctor, but he's been telling me that I just have to forgive him and move on and that I have to stay in this relationship. And she literally could not even sit up. She was sideways. And, and so, boy, there are some, there's a lot of misinformation sometimes. And so getting help from individuals who have the proper training to work with this, this is super complex. This is trauma. Sorry, go ahead.

Dr. Skinner, let me be really clear. Nobody should tell you how to respond to this experience. This is an internalization of your instincts, your intuitive responses. With information. With information. Go get as much information. When I talk information, I'm talking about learning, reading, studying what you're experiencing, how it's influencing your talk with people who've been through this journey. That's one of the powers of group talking with a clinician who can ask you the questions to help you define where you're at. But anybody, including a therapist, religious leader, anybody who says this is what you should do. I'm really leery. I mean, I've had people come to me in some of the most difficult circumstances and I refuse to tell them whether they should stay or go. I will reflect back what I'm hearing from them. What I'm hearing from you is help me understand what would be the consequence of that. What, what are your thoughts about this, whatever that may be. I want them to think through questions and then come to in a response that's appropriate for them.

I can't agree more. And I want to add on to that that this is a process that takes time. Because if, if I'm a brand new client sitting in your office, Dr. Skinner, saying, I don't know what to do, and you're saying, I'm not going to tell you what to do. I'm going to need some time to thaw out of that shock. I'm going to need some time to get some resources. Oftentimes we might feel like I have to make a decision right now. I had a recent client contact me and say, I want to stay and I want to go. I don't know what to do.

And if I was role playing with you on that.

Right.

If I was just role playing with that, I'd say, okay, let's walk down these paths together. What does it look like? What information would you need to stay? What information would you need to know that it's probably time for me to go? And so as we reflect on those questions, it's really a reflective process of helping them come to that internal awareness of what they're feeling.

Yep. And it's going to take some time to get there, I think.

Oh, no question about it. In fact, I often say, don't make decisions right out of the gate. Give yourself time to get more information. And with that clarity and with that information, I call it go gather data. Then you can make the most informed decision. Is it time for me to leave? Is it possible for us to work through this? And if it is possible, what are the next steps? And that's really a whole different podcast of what are the next steps if we're going to stay? What are the things that we could do and should be doing in that. In terms of repairing the relationship.

Yeah, I would add on to that same thing I usually tell my clients, take some time, maybe up to a year, just working on yourself, working on the trauma, working on gathering data, getting your resources together so that you're not making a reactive decision. But oftentimes clients contact me saying, hey, we want couples counseling. And I usually don't start with couples counseling out of the gate when there's been deception because there's been secrecy, in hiding, and that's not a safe place to usually attach from. We can do some communication work, we can do some crisis work, but usually we want to just work on getting stabilized for both partners, get letting our head kind of clear and getting some resources set up. One thing, if we can shift just a little bit into, like, so if I have a client here in my office saying, what do I do? Like, what are my first steps? I think it's important that we talk Dr. Skinner about. About STDs, STIs. That's a hard conversation. But I usually try to have that my very first appointment saying, you don't want to hear this. This is a yucky conversation. But because you don't know what you don't know what you don't know, you probably need to go get yourself checked.

And. And let's be clear, that's again, if the partner's primary way of acting out pornography, that. That's a little bit different conversation than if they've been hiring sex workers, visiting massage parlors or having multiple affairs or a female affair. It is a wise idea to get tested.

Yeah. And it's. And it's tricky that we don't know what we don't know. And oftentimes there can be some progressive behaviors. And one of the hardest beginning steps of the recovery process is gathering information. There is a powerlessness that comes. But there are things that I can do. I can go get myself checked and make sure that I can check that box off that I don't have to worry about that.

Well, a lot of times, people, they'll say things like, I don't know what my partner's done. Right. Because they don't have the information. So if hasn't been a disclosure and this information has not been talked about, there's a whole lot of questions. And. And we're not trying to create fear. We're Just trying to create an, an understanding of how do we best protect ourselves when we don't know. And that's one of the things that we found over and over again. People don't know what their partner has done. And because you don't know, you begin to ask questions. Well, did this happen? Did that happen? And until you have that information, the mind can go into what I refer to as typically worst case scenario thinking. That's common. So yeah, to, to address that. And some people say, well, it was just an affair. I'm sorry, was protection used? And, and what is this person's sexual history? Well, I don't know. Okay, so now we, we are taking a risk. I, we don't want to take risk with life. It's too short.

And I, and I think we're, as you're talking about that, we were looking once again, that PTSD criteria, of course you're going to have incredible anxiety because I don't know, I don't know if I'm safe. I don't. Yeah. So my mind might be spinning on that. It might be, I might be having intrusive thoughts about that. And so I'm going to be reacting to that as well.

Absolutely. So let me, let me now transition for just a second there. So we talk a little bit about the STDs, STIs, but, but if I'm just discovering, here's the thing that I would encourage most of you to do as you start gathering information, it's really helpful to just write down thoughts, things that you've got questions on your mind to make sense of it. Because what happens to the brain is it needs clarity. And so if you find yourself repeating the same things, well, time frames, that's normal. I'm going to ask about time frames. You're going to be asking other things. It's really helpful, especially if you're going to be going to a therapist to write down your questions. So you begin to put a structure to the chaos that it feels like in your mind.

And you're talking about the questions that you'd be asking your partner.

That's right. That's right. Right. Or the questions you have about timing or sequences, sometimes just making order of it helps the brain slow down a little bit. Because you're getting structure to what feels so chaotic.

Absolutely. Because you're moving the emotion, you're having that fear into words, which is something you can make sense of cognitively. That makes sense.

And then as a therapist is, if I'm working with somebody and I Have that list. If I was working with the person who acted out the betraying partner, I'd say, okay, these are the questions that your partner is putting together. And. And let's. I want you to address these because as we prepare for a disclosure, these are essential questions that we address.

Yeah. So as you talk about disclosure, I want to back up just a little bit you talked earlier about. You train. You're a. A trainer for csats, which are certified sex addiction therapists and certified partner trauma therapists. And so you people from all over the world on this disclosure process and on how to work with clients who are coming in with this. I think it's important, as we're talking about therapy and disclosure, just to really identify finding somebody like a certified sex addiction therapist. Finding somebody, a certified partner trauma therapist, a therapist who has tools like emdr, which is eye movement desensitization reprocessing, or ART accelerated resolution therapy. These are some of the tools that I would want to recommend that somebody might look for who's been betrayed or who's dealing with unwanted sexual behaviors. These are very specialized tools to help clients walk through this. And that disclosure process, it's lengthy because you are saying, here's the questions that my partner wants me to answer. And then going through that answering process, it. It's healing process. But. And I know we've talked about it in some other sessions or some other podcasts as well.

Yeah. Let me put a little bit of meat on what you just described, because these are all essential. Right. In my mind. Right. Most couples, they're going to. I mean, there is a disclosure process. It's what we refer to as a forced disclosure. That's where I discover my partner was acting out. And it's. So my partner is now being forced to open up if they. In terms of at least what I know. But that type of a disclosure is rarely the end of the story. In fact, it's usually the beginning of the story. So many more questions. And so people say, oh, I already know everything. They told me everything. And two or three months later, we get a staggered disclosure where I get a little bit more information and a little bit more information, then a little bit more information. And that's just. It's like it's opening up the wound over and over and over again, and it's extremely damaging to the relationship and to the rebuilding trust process. We talked about this in a previous podcast, but, you know, the art of confession, opening up and just being able to put it all out there. So this process of the disclosure and doing it properly, if it's done in the right context. I mean I, I've been meeting with couples for many, many years and when it's done properly, oh, I'm so impressed. Right. Because they get it out there, they talk through this process and, and what, really what they're doing is what Peggy Vaugh found in her work with over a thousand people who've been betrayed. People who talk about the details are more likely to by a significant percentage. So, so the disclosure process, being able to talk and get the data out there, get the information out there, it's cleansing for the person who offended and the person who is betrayed has an opportunity to have the full truth. So disclosure, I can't emphasize it enough. Certified Partner Trauma therapist, csat, certified sex addiction therapist. They've been trained on this. I mean when I say trained, a CSAT has over 120 clinical or additional educational hours. 120 beyond a master's degree. I mean it's significant training. It's, it's, it's, it truly is intense. And a CPTT certified partner trauma trained therapist, they have an additional 60 hours and in both of them they have supervision where they're getting guidance from clinicians who've been doing this. So it's not just the run of the mill therapist because you. I've trained therapists throughout the country. I can't tell you how many people say, well, that my therapist doesn't believe in a disclosure. They think it will make matters worse. I can't, you know, and over and over I've heard some therapists say, well, it's just it, you know, we don't need to bring this up. They've already talked about it and yet they are still talking about it in their relationship because it's not over. So we're trying to push things under the rug and it just, it just doesn't work. And there's a lot of evidence that the Zigarnic effect, meaning unresolved issues is in play there. So one other thing there. You mentioned EMDR and art. Those are trauma focused research based to help people work through their trauma and, and they have been found to be effective in dealing with post traumatic stress. So again, I just want to emphasize we can't, we can't ignore this. It has to be addressed. And if it's addressed properly, I think your relationship and you have a better chance of healing if you want to accelerate it. That's how I would do it. But a lot of people, they're like we'll just try to figure it out. They'll muddle their way through it.

I love everything that you've just shared. Can we, I know we need to start wrapping up. I'd love just to share a couple of final thoughts. Maybe some resources. One thing that we, I guess two things that we haven't talked about that definitely need some time and space. The first one is support group. And we've talked in another episode previously about why we need support and how important support groups are. But when I have a client come in saying my whole world just fell apart, I'm trying to make sense of it, what do I do? I think it's imperative to find a support group because there are people who've already walked this path. There are people that can turn and lend a hand and say here's some resources or I get it, it's that. Me too. So finding a healthy support group, there's a lot of 12 step groups that, that you can look for with that. And I know, Dr. Skinner, I know that's probably a good segue for you because I know that you've got an online group with your, with your, your new program.

Yeah. So let me just address that real quick. So one of the things that I found is education empowers people in ways that is just there's no other way to do it. Just the more information you have, the more informed decision you can make make. So with that in mind, I created a 100 day course and it's 100 videos outlining describing this process of how to understand yourself, what you're experiencing. I, I, I share the research that I was sharing with you earlier, the 15,000 to 20,000. I shared some of the research so people understand what they're actually experiencing and, and validating and feel normalized what they're experiencing. And then we talk about strategies on how to reduce the symptoms. And so it's a 100 day course and really the whole goal is to increase people's awareness and it's not replacing therapy. That's never going to be my goal there. It's to educate, it's to inform. So when you seek help, you're like, I know what I need help with. I tell you when people come to me and say, hey, I've read your book, I've been through your course. These are the things that I think I need to work on. Can you help me with this? It actually accelerates the therapeutic time, reduces how much time they need in therapy and it helps them realize I can have a Voice for what I need and, and my goal is to just help people feel empowered with information so they can inform in a formed way, heal and it's really is possible.

Let me just clarify with that. I think you've got an online, I don't know if you want to call it a group, but you've got a forum also related to that, is that right?

Yeah. So the, the group is actually what it is is it's a 12 week group and I do that separately because it offers support and it is, is what it is is individuals can come for a 12 week group where we actually walk through, working through in the PTSD symptoms. They get group support and a connection with others and when they do that, there is so much power in group, it's unbelievable. I've been doing one group. I think it's just a educational group online, but we, we're working on six months together and, and these people are from all over the country and it's absolutely delightful seeing how they support each other and they support each other outside of our group group because they were, you know, in their own cities, they were uncomfortable. What if I'm seen? And it's, it's amazing how supportive they are of each other. In fact, you get to a point where they don't need me anymore and they just literally they're self sustaining, taking care of each other. And every once in a while I contribute and I say that in a literal way. I'm, I'm just so impressed with the way they support each other. And that's a powerful way for healing. And I've, interestingly enough, there's a growing interest of men who've been betrayed. And there's not a lot of resources for men who've been betrayed. And, but it is a growing voice that I'm hearing people saying I, I don't have anyone to talk to, I need help. Right. And, and so men who've been betrayed, another growing, growing trend, you know, and.

You and I have talked about this previously. I would love to invite our listeners we've talked about is there a need for, for a group like this for men? And I, I, I think it'd be fantastic if we have listeners who are interested, we'd love to hear, send us an email, let us know. And if, if we, if we can fill that need, we'd love to.

Absolutely, for, absolutely. For sure. I am really concerned that one of my core things is everybody needs a voice. They need to be able to express what's happening inside of them. And I Think that suffering in silence, it just, it just keeps that trauma inside so much longer. It's just so painful though, as, as an observer, when you feel supported, it really can accelerate your healing. So again, we are just touching the surface today on this process. So Marianne, final thoughts from you today.

Final thoughts are There is hope. Take care of yourself. We have a. One of our. I know I keep referring to all of our different podcasts that we've done, but you know, we have a podcast talking about five evidence based tools to help you stay afloat. And that's peers. The that's something I refer all my clients to because we need to take care of ourselves. We need to be able to function and these are essential tools for functioning. But know that there is hope. Know that there is hope, that there's light ahead and that there are so many resources and that you're going to get through this and you will grow and you'll do some of the hardest work and things that you've ever gone through, but you will, will heal and there is healing and hope ahead.

You know. And I guess I would like to conclude with in the more information you have, the better is off for you because then you understand what you're experiencing. You know, often in my life when I've had medical illnesses or something, I'll go read about it because I want to understand what my symptoms are. And that's really what I would say to our listeners is the more information you have. And that's why I created the 100 day course. That's why I wrote my book Treating Trauma from Sexual Betrayal. That's why we run these groups because we want people to feel heard and understood. So if you have more Questions, questions. Human Intimacy.com. the 100 day course is at Human Intimacy.com it's called 100 Days to Healing. I would love to have you participate and join us in that course or online in our group. But please don't suffer in silence. There's help available and if you're just experiencing this, please reach out, get some help either in your community, meet us online, whatever it may be. We want to support and help you. Marianne, I want to say thank you. Thank you so much and to our listeners, thank you very much.

Thank you.