Navigating Triggers in Public Spaces: Building Trust and Connection After Betrayal (Episode #50)

On behalf of me and Marianne Michaelis, I'd like to thank you for being a listener of our Human Intimacy podcast this year. It's always a privilege to spend time with you and I want to express my deep gratitude. If you are ready to take your healing and recovery to the next level, you're ready to deepen your healing and strengthen your connection and gain real tools for meaningful change. I invite you to join us and other Experts at the 2nd Annual Human Intimacy Conference where myself, Marianne and many other leading experts will come together for powerful teaching, live question and answer sessions and provide insightful pre conference conversations to help you get the most out of your conference experience. And right now you can save 50% when you register before December 31st. Please don't miss this opportunity. Visit human intimacy.com and reserve your spot today. Something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh. Something's around. Welcome to the human intimacy podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with my friend and colleague, Marianne Michaelis. Marianne, how are you?

Dr. Skinner? I'm doing pretty good today. I'm excited to have a good conversation about a topic that we often, that often comes up with clients and that I hope will be really useful for our clients as they're trying to figure out how to really master relationships and master some aspects of recovery that impact both partners in a relationship.

So today we're going to be talking about individuals, couples who come to our office. And this is a common theme that we see. And it, I'm going to create a scenario and this is the scenario which I often see in a public setting. A couple individual has been, previously there's been some fantasy about people. And so now we're in a public setting where it could be a waitress, it could be at a mall, it could be doing almost anything. And I don't know how to respond. I, I, it's a, it's a trigger for my partner if I'm, if I glance that direction and so maybe I look down and avoid contact. So we're going to talk today about what happens in this individual's mind and in the relationship, how couples can deal with these. We might call them a crucial moment. That's what I refer to. These, these are crucial moments that can influence the relationship in a positive way. And yes, I said positive or it can actually hurt the relationship, blow things up and create a lot of problems.

Yeah. And, and for some context of this, I often see clients come in, especially betrayed partners who say, we went to the mall, we were there Together. And really, like, they were watching their partner, like eagle eyes, just really so attuned to where his eyes were, what he was doing the whole entire time, because they're safety seeking, trying to figure out, am I safe? And, oh, because of the ptsd, because of betrayal, trauma, there is that hyper vigilance. And so looking around, scanning anything that feels unsafe. Okay, now I've got to see how he's going to react to that, which puts so much pressure on the partner to react the right way. And that is the issue. Like, how do I react in a way that is authentic to where I'm at? That also keeps my partner safe.

And I think if we just pause, I'd say most of our clients are dealing with this in some version, especially if there has been extended amount of fantasy or if there's been extended use of pornography. Individuals feel threatened in those environments because someone walks by wearing something that may be revealing or be questionable. And. And so it's like, oh, that's your type. And so I'm, I'm triggered. And now I find that that's where couples don't know how to resolve those moments. And those are very painful, difficult moments where I see a couple, Couple struggle. Our goal is to help you as an individual, if that's a personal challenge or as a couple, how to help you navigate those, what I'm going to refer to difficult, crucial moments. So, Marianne, case scenario. A person's in a public setting and they're afraid to look up. They're afraid to look anywhere because, well, I, I'm, I'm. I don't want my partner, spouse to think that I'm, I'm. I'm lusting over there. And yet there, I'm aware that there's a person over there. What would you say would be the best thing this individual could do in that context?

I think that's such a good question. And my first response is, it's always going to be in the context of, of where you're at, what's going on. So if you're at work and you're noticing this is just coming up for me, obviously my partner might not be right next to me at work. I'm going to have a different response than if I'm with my partner. And the very first response that I would want all of my clients to use is to recognize, oh, there's something that might be triggering or might be painful for my partner. And I'm going to look at my partner and reassure my partner. I'm here. I see that that might be difficult. I see that this might be triggering for you. And I'm going to make eye contact and I'm going to attune and I'm going to. Yes, I might have some emotions as I'm trying to figure out what do I do here. But if I can be present and realize this might be triggering and this might be hard for my partner, that's my very one, my. My number one first place I want to start.

So a phrase I'm gonna use there is awareness. You. You need to have enough awareness that you're in the environment. Because if I don't have that awareness, I. What I literally, my spouse could be watching and they could assume that I'm over there lusting after this person. And so the awareness of, okay, I. In this moment, I need to have the attention to this process that we've maybe pre created. What are you going to do in that kind of an environment?

And as we're scaling this, looking at the tools that I need right here, I need that awareness. And I also need to have the empathy. This isn't about me in this moment because oftentimes I'll hear my clients get defensive. Oh, my goodness, we can't go anywhere without you accusing me. And. And that just jumps into their cycle and is so triggering versus I'm aware. And I know that this must be hard for you. And yes, I need to take care of myself, but I also really need to have some empathy for what you're experiencing right now.

And I really like that a lot because that empathy allows me to be aware of my partner's feelings. And I would submit that whether you're with your partner or not, it's the same construct. Your partner's not there. It's still extremely important to be attuned to your relationship. If my partner was here, would I be doing what I'm doing? Would I be thinking this? Would I be looking? Would I be where I. And I think that personal attunement is a personal recovery journey. Because if I've allowed myself to fantasize and go places mentally, mentally, I know I'm off base. I know that I've done something that's hurtful, whether my partner is with me or my spouse is with me or not.

And I think that's such a great point. I think what. What I'm hearing you say is I can't cherry pick. I can't cherry pick where I'm using it and where I'm not. For healthy recovery. I need to start building in and practicing this practice. Wherever I'm, wherever I am, it needs to be a consistent constant behavior rather than oh, I only do this if my partner's here.

Yeah. So concept number one is giving it attention. Number two, that right. I'm, I'm gonna call it attention. Bringing it to the forefront of your mind. Having the awareness to say this is the situation. But I now wanna talk about preparing for those moments because proper preparation prevents a pound of pain. Where we're preparing for those moments. What am I going to do in a situation where I go in and I recognize that there could be a potential trigger in this environment. And I think it's really important that we all understand human beings can be attractive. They are right? We can see this. I mean there's a handsome person or there's a beautiful person. It's appropriate for us to see healthy human beings. The difference in separation is when I lust after or have lusted after and I allow my mind to walk down that pathway towards sexual fantasy.

I love that you're, I love that you say that because just validating that as human beings we are sexual in nature. That's a part of who we are. And it's not wrong or bad for us to see someone and say oh they're attractive. But it is about the split seconds of what we do afterwards. That's the part that's important. And I think that's where recovery hinges on what happens next. After we notice oh that's an attractive person. What do I do next? Do I go down that pathway with my mind of lust or arousal or do I figure out how to practice my self care or do I connect with the person if my partner's next? Like I've got to figure out my plan for how I manage that because it's so, it's part of being a healthy human being.

So I'm going to say there's three potentials there and maybe more. But I'll. We'll identify three. Right. So one it in maybe the past I would allow my mind to go down that fantasy pathway and I would, I would maybe even joke, oh there's a, you know and, and I would put myself and other people in an uncomfortable situation because of the things that I would do or say. I can see individuals and I've heard situations where people would minimize oh there's a beautiful XYZ or and I've actually seen women similar thing. Well that's a hunk. Right. And, and, and, and, and putting it mindset of sexualizing people in A way that makes other people around them uncomfortable. So, one, that may be an old pattern. Two, I could put my head down in shame and just absolutely do nothing, right? I'm like, I. I can't be seen. And I've heard people that are going into a Costco or whatever and their heads down the whole time, and their partner's actually embarrassed because, you know, they got their head down everywhere they go. It's like, do. And it's because I don't want to fight. And we're out in public and I've just, you know, literally putting their head.

Down, and you're just disconnected.

Disconnected, right. And so you're gonna hit that person, right? And they're. They got their shopping cart and anyway, my point is, is I've seen people who are, you know, they go to a restaurant, they go, whatever. And. And they're just disconnected because they don't want to fight. And they, you know, they don't know what to do in that situation. And so the best thing they know to do is put their head down.

And I'm so glad we're having this conversation. I know you've got a third one, but I. I want to comment on that. How hard to go through life with your head down, not able to look at people. Not able. Because when we're not looking at people, we're also not being seen. How hard to go through life feeling like I can't even lift up my head to connect because there's a lot of fear there. Fear of ourself, fear of where we'll go, fear of what will happen. It's a lot of pain.

And. And not only that, because when you've got your head down, you're missing elements of life. And I'm not saying that you're looking at people, but from a biological perspective, and this is just a reality. When you and I go into any new environment, the thing that we do is we scan the environment for safety. That's the way we are typically designed. So if we go into any new environment, the first thing our body does is say, am I safe here? So you could have a couple come into the same environment. And in this situation, a betrayed partner could feel absolutely threatened by the. The circumstances of this environment. And the person who is acting out could be in the same environment feeling unsafe as well. Because I don't know how to navigate this environment, triggering my spouse. I don't know what to do. That's when I see people put their heads down. And literally it's like both partner One's triggered, one's frozen, and now how do.

We solve it and how do we interact and how do we function and.

What do we say? What do I not say? Right. And that's one of my favorite strategies. And I use this all the time. And it's a pre paired plan where I talk with couples. And in that environment, I encourage my clients to turn to their spouse and say, I am here with you. I recognize that this environment could be very triggering. I want you to know that I'm here with you because you matter the most.

Can I add to that?

Yeah.

I love the idea of a prepared plan and I think having a conversation even beforehand when we go to the mall today in 10 minutes or wherever we're going, if something comes across, line of sight or if there's something that might be triggering for you or triggering for me, what do you need? And this is what I will do. This is what I here's my strategy, here's my plan. But also what do you need so that both people are aware Because I have had clients who, who are watching their spouse and their spouse saying, I'm fine, nothing happen, I'm fine. But the, the betrayed partner just needs validation and reassurance. That's it.

And let's talk about what that sounds like. Right. The question, what are you looking at? Okay. The natural response would be to defense, I'm fine. In contrast with, imagine them saying, boy, this isn't a difficult environment for us. I'm here with you and I care about you. And so let's. Do we need to leave or let's just hold hands. So now we're getting some physical touch connecting. We are, we are an item, we are a team. We matter here. That's also a critical part there. So what, we lean into connection, not out of connection there.

And, and part of that planning, I just want to add, you had mentioned this before, really looking at what situation are we going into? Are we going to go into a situation with your family members or your friends where comments might be. So as you said, proper preparation prevents the pound of pain. It is really looking and saying, what are we going to encounter? What am I going to encounter? And what are my strategies and tools and how can I communicate them with my partner?

Which gets me to the third part. Right. So we have the one that could be just making no big deal of it and in fact making a joke of it. Number two, put my head down in the sand, try to avoid, ignore. This isn't a problem. Another one might be to that defense. Right? So maybe I'm going to get four options. That defensiveness. What are you even talking about? Minimizing it, not validating their partner's fears and concerns and ignoring it. A fourth option. Self awareness. Whether you're alone or with somebody, could you imagine being confident in that moment? Now, that may sound completely foreign to some individuals, but could you imagine being confident enough to say, this is. This is a test, and here I am in this environment. I don't have to fantasize, I don't have to lust. But I can see there's a. There's a human being over there that's an attractive human being, and I'm present, and I don't have to go there. I can reach out to my spouse whether they're with me or not. But this is the type of environment I'm gonna guess that that person over there has family, has loved ones, and they're. They're in their own world. And yeah, they may be attractive. And maybe these people are dressed a certain way. That could be triggering. But I'm not gonna see them that way because I'm gonna humanize them. I'm gonna see them as people, people that matter. And I don't know them, and I don't need to know them, because I've got my people, I've got my tribe. I've got the people that I love and care about. And whether they're with me or not, what I'm doing right now matters to them and to us.

When we see another human being and we see them as their body parts, we're turning them into objects. And the way to shift from this objectification that you are not a sexual object for me to use, either fantasizing about or being aroused by. If I can shift and say, let me look in their eyes, Let me look in their eyes and wonder, what things might they be worried about right now? Do they have kids who are struggling? Are they worried about paying their rent or their mortgage? Are they worrying about aging parents or doctor, you know, health problems? What are the things that might be going on with them? When I look in their eyes, in their face, I make them a human. And are they just like I'd look at and say, oh, this is a sister. This is a daughter. This is a friend? What would happen if I saw them through this lens? That's not a sexual lens, but a human lens? And I do believe it. It is that I. It's the eyes. That's where we.

And it's beautiful. When I humanize People, when I make them right, then they are people. Because now I'm actually having compassion for the human race, not I'm separating out my sexuality from humanity. And I'm saying, this isn't a sexual thing. Because when you have been in lust for so long, everything feels sexual. And it's not sexualizing them. It's not putting them into a sexual category. It's a human. It's humanizing them. Seeing them as a person with feelings and fears and worries and separating out any feelings of that sexuality into human. This is a person who has family and people who genuinely, hopefully people care about them and love them. But my role here is to separate out the sexuality. This isn't about sexual anything. And now in that seeing people as people, I recognize I don't have to be this constantly on sexual being.

It can be a part of me, not all of me.

And. And now I'm putting it where it belongs, in the relationships that matter the most.

And I hear you say that, and I hear freedom. I hear a lot of freedom there saying, I don't have to be driven by this. This doesn't have to be my constant driver all of the time. I can relax into healthy relationships.

So I might be in public and I might recognize that there's this person, and my spouse may be triggered. And I have the confidence to lean into this relationship, lean into this connection, because that's what I want. And now I'm. I'm actually pursuing what I want. And that's human connection. See, even if I. If I allow my mind to fantasize, that's empty calories. As I say, it doesn't get me anything. It's the nutrition content. I might get this hit, but it's not a connection. Contrast that with a meaningful conversation with my spouse. Contrast that with a hug. Contrast that with a playful tease. Contrast that with a bonding experience where we had a meaningful, meaningful conversation.

So let's talk about. Let's talk about that couple that's so hurt by this that so, so hurt both sides. The one that's been accused constantly, the other who's been betrayed so much. Where do we start? Where does this couple start? Where do they start to bridge this gap? Because there's a lot of pain there.

I think the first part of it is to take off the assumptions, both directions. So assumption from the betrayed partner, you are lusting after everybody. Assumption for the betraying partner, you're always angry. You're trying to control everything that I do. If that's where you're starting this journey you're going to fight because your perception is your partner is trying to control you or your partner's blaming you or your partner. Right? And so your perception of your partner is already starting at the wrong place. And so if I can see the best and, and believe the best of my partner, and my partner can see and believe the best of me, then I want to strive to be better, better for each, for this relationship, for each other. So I think I have to step back and say, I don't know if my spouse is fantasizing. I don't know if my, my spouse is trying to control me. They're scared. So I'm actually giving them the benefit of the doubt. And some people say, well, you shouldn't do that because they've been lusting and they've been doing this for all this time. A person who's working recovery should be working on anything that's lust based thoughts. They should be working on those things because that's how they're going to recover.

So I'm going to ask you a couple more questions. I want to just drive this a little bit further because I'm just thinking about the scenarios that I see in my office and also for our listeners, like some scenarios that they may be or some questions that they may have about this. So I'm wondering, let's say we're at the mall and my partner is looking, let's say that they, they, they're working on recovery, but they do catch themselves. I see it and they see it. Let's talk about what a, what a healthy response to that might be.

So let's, let's go back to what even the look means. Marianne, can I naturally assume that because you looked over there that you're fantasizing want to be sexual with that person.

So if I'm the partner and I'm seeing my partner, look, if I'm a betrayed partner and I see my partner, look, I think what you're saying is there's a lot of interpretation that's subject to a lot of interpretation and based.

Upon the past, why wouldn't I assume that you're fantasizing? Right. Given the, that makes complete sense based upon the past. And I'm asking in this situation, if a person's working on that, okay, I got a, you're looking. That's a trigger for me. So how do I communicate that? And if I'm the person who is looking that way, I have to be very cognizant. And that's why I start off with that, you have to be attentive to your environment, and you have to understand your environment. If you're working recovery, your goal objective needs to be attentiveness, because old patterns die hard. So you could be looking in that direction, fantasizing and catch it and oh, okay, can't that. Whoa.

That's the part. Let's talk about that part. Because, yeah, what if I've got the neural pathways? This is a pattern. This is a habit that I've got. And so what if I am looking and I am lusting? Because I'm guessing with this conversation, we're talking about recovery patterns, that it's not just cut and dry. It's not just a light switch that flips on and off. And so I know for our clients learning to. To step into recovery, it would be great if it was night and day.

I would say you need to catch yourself.

So I catch myself as quickly as.

Possible because that attentiveness is actually your progress in the worst case scenario. I don't see that. And I create more problems because I avoid or ignore your spouse saying, hey, what are you doing? Oh, wow, right. If you're going to acknowledge that, that's like, okay, that's. Acknowledgement is a huge step. Wow, that happens so fast. I've got to be more attentive, more cautious, more careful, because that's. That's not the where. Where I want to go. That's why you have the benefit. When you slow this process down, if you don't have that awareness, you need to build it so you don't allow those moments to grow.

Yes. So I think where we started out, is that really that awareness, Even that checking with our. In with our partner, if I notice that that's a space that I'm in that I am looking and I'm fantasizing or lusting. When I have that awareness, it might be important for me to say, turn to my spouse and say, I've got something I need to deal with. I need to step away. And that's where I call a sponsor. That's where I reach out to a friend. That's where I. I have to do some recovery work right there. And it might be really uncomfortable to acknowledge. Yeah, I just caught myself going down a path I didn't want to go down. But once again, it's turning and connecting with our partner.

Because acknowledging in that situation with the partner.

Yes. And recognizing the partner. And if I'm already down that road, I might not be in the right frame of mind to have the empathy that I need for my partner because I've got to get my head straight. And that's where I hope that my partner really has some good supports as well. To reach out to. To say I'm struggling.

A couple of things there that's often so triggering for the partner. That's where I see the coupleship kind of. I'm going to say that's where couples blow up. Right. Because you get the intensity. I knew you were. And you just acknowledge it. See, we're together. We can't even go out in public. That's the common phrase lines that we hear. And that's where the maturity of a acknowledgment. Can you imagine the acknowledgment of, hey, look, I need a break. This, I'm recognizing this. This a difficult environment for me. Right. Some accountability there. That's huge. That's owning it.

And it is. And I want to also validate for that betrayed partner. It can feel like an abandonment. Okay, fine, fine. You're over here lusting and now you're just going to go over and talk to your other people and just leave me here with that? You're going to step out anyways. You were already stepping emotionally or mentally, and now you're gonna go step out and go talk to your people. And here I am.

Left alternative I could be here with you. I just. I need to acknowledge that there is something over there that was triggering for me and I'm owning it right now because I don't want it to grow. And so if you want me to be here with you, I would love that. But I need to acknowledge I need to be accountable for what just happened.

And I would add to that. I want to be here with you. And this has been. This is a barrier for me right now. I need to clear my head so that I can fully be here with you, to support you with this. Yeah, you didn't deserve that. And I want to be fully here with you.

Well, that. That would be very. I mean, my. I many betrayed partners, I think, would appreciate that based on the things that I've heard. Right. Again, those are crucial moments. That we can handle them well or we can handle them poorly. We can become defensive. We can be accused of our partner of being controlling. We can minimize it, we can deny it, or we can call an ace an ace and a spade a spade and have the awareness to say that that was triggering for me and I have to own that. And in truth, that's a really positive response because it's not allowing it to grow.

There's no hiding the secrecy.

Yeah. Instant accountability can prevent a pound of pain.

You're changing it now, Dr. Skinner.

I am changing it. But that type of accountability, that's what we're talking about again. When I am honest and truthful with self, that's where I find the greatest progress inside of me as a human being.

And I think that's where when we see our partner say, I gotta step away. Like, oh, and I'm grateful that you've got some tools. I'm grateful that I'm grateful to see. This is how we build trust. I build trust by getting up and saying, I gotta step away for a minute. I got to go take care of. I got to reach out to somebody. As uncomfortable as it is to be standing somewhere like, oh, they're not here. After a while, it says, oh, I'm grateful that this person's taking their responsibility so that they can keep me safe. Can I. I want to back up just to 1. 1. One little area that I think is important that we talk about when we're talking about that plan that we're preparing and when we're talking about this might happen. This does happen, especially in recovery, because it's a process. I think it's incredibly important to take the last time where we didn't do well and to unpack that, figure out where were the points that I didn't do well. So when we're planning for the future, we look at the past, and we work from what didn't work last time.

Game planning. Right. But all of the. There's. Boy, this is where I'd say, if you haven't been to one of my intensives, this is what we go through. We go through these type of details because there's a whole foundation here that needs to be developed in how to stay connected. Same because, well, when couples are working in the right direction, their connection is very, very powerful. They continue to work because what's happening is the stronger your bond, the more you can go through that. Metaphorically. It's like I call it. You're putting money in the bank. You put money in the bank, and here comes, right, a connection. We're holding hands, we're going on walks. And when a trigger hits, we have that connection that allows us to work through it. But when you're already fighting and you're having a hard time and you go into that public setting, you don't have any money in the bank, you don't got anything to withdraw, you try taking Money out. You got nothing there.

As I hear you say that. The image that came to my mind was a yo yo. And when you're a couple and you've, and you've, you've got a tight connection, there can be a breach, but it's going to be a small drop and then it comes back, it can come back together. But when there's that disconnect, it's a long drop and it takes a lot of work and a lot of time to get back up to the top. Yes, I, I, yeah, I don't know why my brain went to a metaphor of a yo yo, but it works.

It works. All right, so let's talk about this as we get ready to close up today. Let's talk about this in one other context. And this is the context of individuals who don't have their spouse around or they don't, maybe they're single and they're trying to be aware of their thought processes because they want to see. When we talk about change process, it's not just behaviors that we're trying to change, we're trying to the way we think and the way we feel. Because long term recovery is not just changing a behavior. It's actually getting to the thoughts and the feelings that often lead into behaviors. So when we look at the change in individuals lives, they work through fantasies. They don't allow their mind to go towards that. A friend of mine said, I can't stop a bird from landing on my head, but I can stop it from building a nest. I love that the thoughts will come, vulnerable, temptation, cravings. It's the capacity to respond as quickly as possible that prevents the bird from building the nest.

And I think it's important just to once again validate. Our brains are so creative. Our brains are always going, well, what about this and what about this and what about this? That's that natural creative process. The fantasy of oh, I'm going to be moving into this house, what should I do with the curtain or whatever. That's our brain really, it's made to do that. It's made to, what's the word? To forecast potential things. It is always creating, trying to navigate and make sense of and take care of us. That's our brain's job. And so recognizing and validating, saying oh this is normal and now I'm going to direct it because this is not healthy, let me go someplace else with this.

And that's, that's some mental work that is required there because the old patterns, as I said, old patterns die. Hard. That means you have to be again, intentional of what to do in very specific moments. And so if you rehearse this mental rehearsal in a situation, at a diner, in a mall, wherever you are, you have pre planned and emotionally, when you recognize a trigger, you know how to respond. It requires less mental bandwidth when you're prepared.

And looking at this through a parts perspective, I think it's important to also stop and say, okay, this is where my mind's going. Is there something that I need? Why is this part of me showing up? What's it trying to tell me? What does it need? What's it trying to help me with? And how can I take care of myself in this space?

That self reflective moment, right? That self reflective moment, the mindfulness, which is a very beautiful way to do.

This and I think with that just one super quick, easy tool is to say what's a passion project? What's something that I can redirect my brain and say, let me go over here. Because this is something that I can just lose myself thinking about and it's safe, right?

And that's a pre planned out. This is what I'm going to do in this environment if this happens. Not maybe not if, but when it happens, this is what I'm going to do to respond. So again, every time that we find that individuals come up with a plan and they carry it out, their confidence increases. So you don't have to go into a situation with your head down. I would much prefer, and I tell all my clients this, I want you to be confident, not arrogant, confident in your ability to respond in any moment, that you are comfortable, that you know what to do in crucial moments. And if you know what to do, then it's not guesswork, it's not a game. And you don't have to go in fearing something because there's not a tiger. It's not a tiger. It's a temptation.

And so, Dr. Skinner, we come once again to your tagline. Proper preparation prevents a pound of pain. I don't know how many of our podcasts this has come up with, but boy, it is about. We can't get to that confidence place without the planning beforehand, without the work that comes into it.

It doesn't happen on autopilot, it doesn't happen on autopilot because the old pattern, the old frequency is so embedded that you have to be very int about the change process. And this is just one example. Couples can do it, individuals can do it, but you need to take the time to game plan strategize carry out the plan, build your confidence that you know how to respond and do it with confidence.

I love this conversation. This has been a great topic. I'm so glad we could talk about that today.

All right. To our listeners, we want to thank you for taking the time to be with us. If you have not yet registered for the Human Intimacy Conference, may I invite you to do so? We have a discount. We're going to extend it one more week. For individuals, the discount right now, $50 off our price. For couples, it's a hundred dollars off. Strongly recommend you join us. We've got incredible guests that both Marianne and I will be there. We have Dr. Sherry Keffer. We have Michelle Mays, the Betrayal Bind. I mean, she is phenomenal. Michelle is great. We also have our friends and colleagues. We do a lunch and learn and we have colleagues, Costa, Petra, George, he's going to be presenting and you've heard Costa on the podcast. We have Dr. Dave, Rob, we also for our listeners, if you've been divorced, we have a whole day Saturday with incredible experts talking about how to go through divorce, how to adjust, how to deal with the trauma, maybe the aftermath of betrayal. So we have this conference March 14th and 15th. Again in the show notes, you will find a way to access that or if you go to humanintimacy.com, if you go to the top of the page, it will take you to the site that you can register. We invite you to join us. It's going to be an incredible conference. All of the sessions are going to be recorded, all of them. And you're going to have a chance to go back and watch them. If you have questions, we will be addressing your personal questions with the incredible, these incredible experts. So please join us for the upcoming first annual Human Intimacy Conference, March 14th and 15th, 2025.

Going to be fantastic. I'm so excited for it. Thank you to our listeners for being here with us today and I wish you a wonderful week and hopefully hope that the, the tools that we've talked about today will be helpful for you.

All right. Thank you, Marianne, and to our listeners. You guys have a good, fantastic, outstanding, marvelous, extraordinarily great week if you choose. Bye bye, everybody. Bye bye.