Nurturing Healthy Body Image

Foreign. Welcome to Finding Noble, a podcast where we climb into the world of young people's mental health and where we provide support for the adults who support them. I'm your host, Carly Redd. Welcome, Dr. Skinner. It's wonderful to be with you today, Carly.

I'm excited to be with you. It's going to be a lot of fun, and I hope that as we go through this, we're able to help people understand how to have good mental health and have a lot of fun in the process.

Thank you. Well, we felt honored to have you with us, as always, and let's just get to it. Today we'll be talking about how body image affects the mental health of all of us, but particularly our children and youth. I'd like to start with a quote from a study that we have. Research has shown that for young children, attitudes about body shape and size may start as early as three or four years old. This trend continues in adolescents, with one Mental Health foundation survey finding that among young people aged 13 to 19, 35% said their body image causes them to often or always worry. Another study said by age 16, only 16% of boys and 12% of girls are content with their body size. So there's obviously something happening to youth at a very young age which disconnects them or fragments them from their bodies, and it divides them into this internal self part and external self part, almost like a shell rather than part of a whole. Why does this happen?

I think we have to actually go back in time and look really the early phase of their life. What happened? What were the messages that they were getting? Because when you think about this idea of, I'm not happy with my body, where does that even come from? If you really step back and think as an individual, I grew up in a family, and maybe it's from my family or maybe it's from my peers at school. But I start comparing myself, and as I look in the mirror, I don't like myself. So when we get to that point of what's wrong with me, there's typically something that occurs before that, because I don't think we're born with that idea that there's something wrong with this body. I don't know what event or events have occurred, but I think the message is there's something in our environment that's saying, you're not quite right. And maybe it's the media that we compare ourselves to others, or maybe it's something that happens in school where we feel like, oh, my body's not like their Body. And I think this is in particularly true when you look at the young kids going through puberty. And that's always a crazy phase, right?

This idea of a collectivist or cultural perception and how these external factors influence the way we see ourselves. Why is it that we begin instinctively to compare at such a young age and throughout our lives? Does it have anything to do with kind of what's normal and us trying to fit into what's normal? What can you tell us about that?

You know, that's an interesting question. Is it fitting into what's normal or is it the message that I'm getting in my environment? Because if I grew up in an environment where my parents say, you know what, you're great. We as individuals, yeah, we have different styles, different bodies. I have eight children, so I've been through this with lots of girls. Seven daughters, one son.

Wow.

And, yeah, and I can tell you we have all different types. Some of my daughters are. I mean, they were like I was at that age just a bean pole. And then I have other daughters who are broader shoulders and it's just a different body type. And I think really the important message is what message are we sending as parents to our children?

And.

And then in society, it's helping our children understand that there's going to be a lot of opinions on what you should look like. But what matters most is that you know that you're enough and that your body is your body. It's unique and beautiful to you.

I like that idea. I like this idea too, that we base the norm around what we're seeing all the time. And so, as we know, we have so many youth tuning into social media and things that are always altered for the most part. Filters. And even in my day it was magazines, which are kind of archaic now. But, you know, everything we're looking at has been altered in some way. And it suggests to our minds that this is normal and that we are the anomaly, that we are the ones that aren't befitting that really, it's kind of an unavailing ideal version of what a body can be. And I feel like that really messes with us.

I think you're right. I remember seeing a picture of this person. It was a skinny person and was looking into mirror, and what they saw in the mirror was an overweight person. That's what our brain can be programmed to do, is we look into this mirror and we're not seeing what's actually there. We're actually maybe feeling discontent or something's wrong. With us. And so for me, I think we have to step back and we have to help our children and, and including ourselves, look at how do we perceive our bodies? Because I'm going to suggest that study you shared earlier, where it was, what is it? 16% of the boys and 12% of the girls are actually content with their body size. That means over 80% of people don't like their body. How in the world do we get to that mindset in our society where there's something wrong with this body of mine? We really need to get back to your body is unique and beautiful and help them understand that when we live in this culture, there's so much social expectation that we look a certain way. But when we look at our children and we as caregivers, and maybe this is what we can do as parents, is we need to send a message to our child that we want to be healthy. And whatever body style we have, what other type we have, we really want to focus on being healthy.

I really love that message. I loved a couple things that you said. One, what is the message that we are trying to send to our children? And two, how does what we're seeing impact our idea of normal body image? And really a question I have is how can we change or shift to a more diverse normal, if that makes any sense? How can we start to see this diversity and body type, body image, all the different colors, shapes, variations as normal, rather than what we may be seeing in front of us, especially in a digital world where we are attached more digitally than we are to actual human beings.

And Carly, that is such a critical point because if we look at this diversity, we really need to celebrate it rather than think, oh, oh, I need to fit in. And that's one of the things that they're finding with the individuals who are tracking their Instagram accounts and their body needs to be a certain way and their pictures need to be a certain thing. And if they're not getting the right amount of likes, that there's something wrong with them, that in of itself is a trap and they've actually found that leads to more depression. So I think when we start looking at ourselves as parents and then what the message we're teaching our children is, look, there is so much diversity. I'm actually way more concerned about the child's self perception. I have a firm belief, and this is just something that I believe. I believe that we are all born with high self worth and that it is only life's experiences where we start to question our worth. And so when we as individuals begin to question, there's something wrong with me, there's something wrong with my body, I think that's getting an insight of our worth or our sense of worth. I'll give you an example of that. A few years ago, my four year old daughter, we were getting ready to go to church and, and she had a beautiful dress on, absolutely beautiful dress. She has a smile, her smile is just, it's just beautiful smile. And I look at her and I say, oh sweetheart, you look so beautiful today. And she looks at me and she.

Says, I know, I love that.

And then she went to junior high and that beautiful girl who knew she was beautiful began to question, is there something wrong with me? My body's changing and whatever this thing's happening to me, it's happening her true identity. And that's what I would want to say to everybody. Our true sense of this body, we are beautiful. And the puberty phase and the zits and all the fun stuff, you know what I'm talking about? It's a nightmare, right? And yet that doesn't change their worth and it doesn't change who they are. And I think as parents one of the core things we do is we send a message of you are of value, you were born that way and no life experience is going to take that away.

I would imagine that everybody could say they had an experience around that age where we're hitting puberty and constantly comparing, contrasting, comparing our bodies with others. And it really does chip away at this and may wholeness that we experienced from when we were born to where we are now and losing that. Which kind of leads us into this next question I have for you. I think it's a question that most parents really don't want to ask ourselves or I know as a parent of teenagers myself, this question, how does the way I see myself affect the way my child sees themself? Which, ooh, that's heavy.

That is not only is it a heavy question, but maybe it's one of the more important questions we can talk about because we look at in the mirror and the way we see ourselves is a direct reflection of how we see our children and how we see others. I know many children who've grown up in homes where they were compared said things like, well, you know, you're gaining a little bit of weight. Whose issue is that? Is that my issue or is that my child's issue? And I think that when we as parents say to our child, you're gaining weight or you're doing this, we're focused more on a message to them that says something about their body, which is really our issue. It's ours. And that is so important for us all to understand. What message am I trying to send to my child now? Does weight matter? Yes, weight does matter, but it's about being healthy, not about this body saying, oh, if I gain weight, people aren't going to like me. And that's the trap that we've fallen into as a society is we said, people are not going to like me or I'm not going to fit, or I'm not going to belong if I'm this body shape or this body type. So as parents, we need to deal with our stuff. And if we don't like our body, if we don't, if we think there's something wrong with us, that's something that we need to look in the mirror and say. What's in my mindset is making me think that I'm not enough or I'm inferior or people won't like me. And then the message we ultimately want to send to our children is the message we want to send to ourselves. I just want to be healthy. I want this body to be strong so I can hike and bike and run and walk and I can dance and I can play and I can have fun. That's what I'm more concerned about, rather than whether I fit in and belong because my body shape.

I really like that. This brought up to mind one of the professors I had wrote a book, and as many professors do, but I'll never forget this. It said in there, the body is the cup in which to drink the world. His name was George Hanley, and his book is Home Waters. But I love this idea that the body is the way in which we experience life. And I feel like what you're saying is our messaging to our children is your body is how you are connecting to other people and to the world around you. That kind of shifts from this idea of body appearance to body appreciation that we are experiencing our life through our bodies. And instead of tweaking and breaking and criticizing and altering all these physical forms, we really have this desire to be grateful and then also give back gratuitously to this body that allows us to inhale and exhale life. And ironically, I feel like the more grateful we are, the more we're going to take care of it, because we can see that it's this circuitous experience where the more we give to it, it gives back to us and allows us to inherit the world differently. How is it that home. We start to shift this narrative from body appearance to body appreciation. What are things that we can do in our homes?

That's a really good question, because the message that we have to first understand is, what message have we been sending about our body? But let's put it in a different perspective. We as a culture, we've never seen so much obesity. In the context of talking about appreciating our body, we also have to acknowledge that we are dealing with obesity in a way that we never have before. I'm not saying we ignore this. We want to be healthy, but we also have to deal with the counterpoint here. We aren't being healthy. We're not doing the things that healthy people do. So that is a part of the messaging that we want to send as well, is we need to engage in activities that help us have better mental health. In my family, one of the things that we've done with our children is say, we want you to engage in a sport because it's not only the community and the team, but you get in a good shape. I think it's important that we don't ignore the messages that we're sending to the body. The body needs to be used, it needs to be creative, it needs to be moving. And when it's doing that, it actually feels better about itself. We exercise, we have better mental health.

Yeah, I like this idea, again, that everything is connected. So our physical health is connected with our mental health, and we're trying to reconnect all that. But also, again, going back to this concept of finding joy in our lives and using our body to find that joy by participating in things that we love. Things shifted for me about my own body concept when I had a brother pass away. He had a heart defect that we did not know about, he did not know about, and ended up just dying in an instant. And I remember the first few times I went running and the mornings after he had passed away, I was overwhelmed with gratitude for my heart and for my body that was moving and that was healthy and that I was able to participate in something. Like you said, sometimes running isn't always joyful in the moment. Sometimes it is, but it does make me feel great. And I always run outside, and I love being out early in the morning when nobody can see me. Sometimes I'm dancing and. And it's a great experience for me. But it shifted from I'm exercising to be sin or I'm exercising to look a certain way too. I am Connecting to the world and to my body in a way that is joyful and just. The appreciation and the gratitude that came from it, which, interestingly enough, I think it releases us from the shame that we experience in our culture.

If I could just emphasize something that you said there. We never exercise to lose weight. Exercise should never be about losing weight. Exercise should be about feeling healthy, strengthening the body, and knowing what it does for our mental health and wellbeing. So when people say, I want to lose weight and I need to exercise, I'm like, actually, let's reframe that. What's the purpose of exercise? The purpose of exercise is to strengthen your muscles, strengthen your mind, and help you feel better about life. It's a great antidepressant. I'm a big fan of. Look, we do these things for a reason, and the reason is we want to be healthy and strong. And if we put it in that context, then I'm not trying to lose weight. I'm just trying to be healthy. It's a different way of looking at this life experience.

I feel like that's very motivating, too. When I know that I'm going to go out and experience, you know, something that's going to not necessarily completely change my outside, but really help on the inside. I'm much more motivated to do it because it's not about what other people think about me. It's how I experience it, my own life. And for whatever reason, that makes me feel more motivated to do it. I really love Carlo Rovelli. He's a Italian physicist. He's written a couple books. He always starts out his books with Reality isn't what it seems that our concept of the Earth is very different than what we perceive it to be. Originally we thought the Earth was flat. Does it look splat? And originally it looks like the sun is revolving around us. And all these things that, from our perspective, how we see it is actually wrong, that we are wrong a lot of the time. And when we dig deeper, we find out that what we see is not how things are. And I like this in relation to our bodies, is that what we see of a person is not who they are. And so when we start to see ourselves that way, I think it changes the way we see others that way. And especially when we're talking about it in our homes. As a parent, when I start to see myself as. As this kind of going back to what you said, restoring this worth that we had when we were born, getting back to that as an adult is admittedly Very difficult. And sometimes we don't allow ourselves to spend that much time thinking about our own worth. Cuz we're so concerned with everybody else around us. How does that shift into our children? When we start to understand our worth, this inside part of us that maybe our people around us cannot see because they don't know us intimately, how is it that the way we feel about ourselves really changes the way our children think about themselves?

It's so complex and yet so simple. When we believe in ourselves, when we are doing what's healthy, when our mindset is positive and we're like, man, I'm doing good things, I, I call it creativity. When we're moving forward, when we're being creative, when we're using our mind and body to do good things, the message we send is filled with energy. But when we're not, when we're kind of, I don't know what you want to call it, lackadaisical, feeling, stuck, bored, then our creativity isn't happening. And so when we do creative things, when we do positive things, whether that's exercise, whether we eat healthy foods, the message we're sending is I belong. I want to be here in a healthy way. And to me personally, that's what I think is critical, is I want to be here in the best positive way. Good mental health, good physical health. And even if I do all of that, I might still have struggles. Well, in fact, I will have struggles. But the message I'm sending to my child is these are the things that are positive. And the energy coming from me is this is who we are, this is how we live. And I think the message we send to our children is you are of worth. And that's really what I want to hone in here, here. I want my child to know that they're of infinite worth and value. I want my child to know that they don't have to compare themselves to anybody. Them. What's the healthiest me I can be, Whether that's emotionally, whether that's physically, whether that's academically, if we just strive to be the best self, yes, we're gonna have weaknesses and we're gonna have illnesses, and we're gonna have things that don't work well at times. But here's the reality. We're resilient, we're strong, we do hard things. And if we're sending those kind of messages, we're teaching our children about the reality of life. We're resilient and we're strong and we just want to be as Healthy as we possibly can. And most important, I love you and you matter. That's the message we want to send to our children.

I love that. I really do love that. And I like that you led into this idea of being motivated, having energy. Energy comes from finding joy. And I think as parents, it's very difficult to tap into the things that we like sometimes because we're so concerned about making sure our kids are thriving. We're so concerned about their education, all the parts of them that will help them have success now and as adults. But I think sometimes, at least in my experience, that can come at a cost and that we get a little bit lost in it ourselves. And from my own experience, just being able to see a difference. When I find joy, when there's music in the home, when people are laughing again, when I sit down to read a book, you know, it's not always about the doing all the time. There's a shift that happens in our home, and everybody seems to be happier. Everybody seems to be finding more joy in it. And so really, when we get give ourselves permission, I guess, more of what it is to tap into things that make us happy, especially connecting through our bodies to the world as we've talked about, then really our kids have permission to do the same. And probably more so by example than by anything we could ever say. Because I've sure learned that nobody cares what I'm saying in my house. Everybody's watching everything I'm doing, but nobody's listening. They're just watching. If we want them to be happy, if we want them to love themselves and their bodies, then we should have to start doing it. Is what I'm getting from you.

Can I add something I think is maybe at the foundation of everything we're trying to talk about today?

Yes.

In human relationships, the time that we connect is when we feel the safest. I love that when I feel safe in an environment, I thrive. I feel comfortable laughing and playing and teasing. I feel comfortable in my body. I feel comfortable being able to go to the pantry and find some food that I like or the fridge, because I'm comfortable with who I am. And to me, the concept of safety is when I feel safe, I'm more likely to socially connect with other people. And when I'm safe with my body, it's because I'm actually like who I am. And I think if there was a core message I could we could send today, it would actually be that help our children feel safe with who they are and in society. And we'll have better outcomes.

Yeah, I kind of like transitioning to this nice idea of a connection with others and our body image. We hear reports of higher sexual satisfaction the older we get. But the predominant cultural message that we're hearing is that the attractiveness of our bodies and our partner's body belays or determines our sexual satisfaction. Which attractiveness is largely conditioned by the cultural emphasis on youthfulness. With your many decades of experience in helping partners find intimacy and connection, I'm interested to know what you would say about this, about healthy sexuality and bodies and body image.

We probably could do about 10 shows on this one all by itself. But just to simplify a few things, I would say that, yes, our comfortable being comfortable with this body is directly related with our sexuality. But the more I work with couples, it's. That's actually not completely true. People are comfortable with that relationship. And so the principle is, am I comfortable in a relationship? Does this person help me feel safe? And do I feel safe with myself? And if I'm comfortable in this relationship, then I'm creating a safe environment in this relationship for our sexuality. And to me, that's one of the most critical things we do is we connect based upon who we are and who they are. And we create a safe, loving environment. And that really influences our sexuality the most.

When you were talking, I thought of good old Fred Rogers. When he's saying, it's you I like. It's not the clothes you wear. I would sing, but then nobody would listen.

But actually it's not. Would you please do that, Carly? That would be great. So if you'll just start singing, that would be good.

I'd refuse, but it's not the way you do your hair. It's you I like. We grew up on that. Thank you, Fred. And it's true. I feel like if we surround ourselves with relationships where people see us. I think this is something that you've said before, is feeling felt. That when you feel felt by other people, especially your spouse or partner, that is intimacy. And that kind of intimacy is what concludes with higher sexual satisfaction. Because it's real intimacy. It's not based off of this image of what it should be or what it should look like, but how it feels to connect.

And what you're talking about there, Carney, is really interesting because to me, that idea of comparison is actually one of the greatest detriments to human connection. Because I'm comparing myself and thinking, I don't fit. I don't belong. When we can put down the comparison, we can be Present, we can be connected. Because I'm not worried about what you're thinking or if I compare, if I'm bigger or smaller or shorter or taller or whatever I am or not. And all of a sudden we're like, no, I'm just with you. We are safe with each other. And that is what actually leads to healthy human connection.

We've touched on adolescence, and that's the age group we've been talking about today. During adolescence, a person experiences a lot of uncertainty around their identity. And the body that they have is drastically shifting into a body and face, even that they don't recognize. And it's out of their control. They lack control. And I think that can be very traumatic just as a human being. And then to add on top of that, other adolescents who are experiencing the same situation, and now people are critiquing their body next to someone else's, comparing, contrasting. I feel like that's very overwhelming. And then to add on top of that, you have parents like me who are constantly nagging about hygiene and acne control and smells and all the things that probably make them feel even more insecure, which is not great on my part. And I'm sure a lot of people can relate, but I feel overwhelmed even talking about this heightened sense of awareness that they experience at that age. But I like this message that you created in this discussion. What is the message we are sending to our child? But also, do you know how your child sees themselves? Which is a really hard question to ask ourselves because I think we're all very good at making sure they're doing X, Y, and Z. But do we know how they see themselves and what are they experiencing? What can we look forward? How can we go about finding that out, especially with less communicative adolescents?

It's interesting that you bring this up, because my wife and I have this conversation. I've got a son who's 13, and he's going through this interesting phase right now of his voice is changing and it's just body transition time for him. And I've thought about what you were just saying. What messages are we sending? And to me, I think I have to listen to myself, and then I have to listen to what I'm hearing from him. The concept here is called attunement. And when we are attuned to people, we're not just observing what they're doing. We're attuned to emotional expressions. We're attuned to language. I don't fit, I don't belong. There's Something wrong with me? I'm so stupid. Or oh, we had so much fun. We were playing games, we were tagging, and all of a sudden you hear them connecting. And I'm like, okay, get out of the way there. But when I start hearing my child say, I don't fit, I don't belong, others make fun of me, all of those things, that's where I'm like, okay, we got a problem. So I'm listening how a child sees themselves and listening to. To specific language and body language that I'm hearing from them. If they come home from an activity and they're disconnected, what happened at the activity? Again, that's attunement, being attuned to the emotional output of your child. And that's really, as a parent, what you want to be paying very close attention to is what message is your child coming home with? And if you can't read your child, it's time to check in. If you haven't checked in with your child lately, what's going on? How are things? How are friends? Then, as my child, as they go through puberty, it's communication. It's talking with them very openly. Look, your body's changing right now.

I think we've all had experiences growing up where we noticed something about our bodies and we thought, oh no, I must be the only one in the world that has this. I am so weird because it feels weird to us because we haven't had that before. And then it's nice that we have Google now that we can be like, is it normal for me to be thinning my hair thinning as I age? Yes, it is very normal for your hair to thin as you age, those kinds of things. I think that's what we all want to know is I'm not the anomaly. I too belong. And I think that kind of goes back to those first basic needs of belonging and acceptance that a lot of our body image stuff has to do with. We just want to belong. We just want to make sure that we fit in and that we're okay.

Absolutely. We want to normalize the development that occurs. And we want them to understand that, yes, it's going to. Not only is it's happening, it's going to happen, it's going to continue to happen, and then things will happen and you'll settle down and then your body will change again.

I feel like, especially at least during adolescence, when you don't feel like you're fitting in or where you feel insecure about how you compare to the crowd, you Pull away. You don't want to associate with the crowd. You don't want to be a part of it, because you don't want them to notice that you're not like them. And so to be. To be secure at home, that someone's telling you at home over and over again that you're okay just as you are, you can walk with confidence, you can stand tall, even though this feels unfamiliar to you, I think is really helpful, but also difficult. It sounds good in theory, but having teenagers, anytime I bring anything up that has to do with anything about their bodies or anything, they're like, mom, we don't want to hear about a mom. We don't want to talk about it. And so I think a lot of it comes down to just pushing through. I feel like with my kids, I know you don't want to talk about this, but we're going to talk about it because I don't want you to feel maybe how I felt, or I don't want you to feel less than. And so maybe pushing through the discomfort, being comfortable with the uncomfortable.

And if there's a core point here of what you're bringing up, and I just want to summarize it in one simple thing. What do we want our children to believe about themselves?

Yes.

And that influences the messaging that we send to them and how we communicate with them. So I think, as parents, what do we want our children to believe about themselves? And really, that means that we have to look in the mirror and say, what do I believe about myself? And I think that we, going back to what we were talking about earlier, we have to do that. And then we have to look at our children, say, what are they believing about themselves? And ultimately, what's the message? What do we want them to know about themselves? And I think core points, you're safe, you're loved, you matter, you're enough. And we want to be healthy, we want to be strong. And this is how we do it, and this is why we do it. I want my child to walk out of my house knowing that, you know what? I was loved and I am enough. You know, here, if I could just summarize anything, we can all be better. And yet we're probably all doing well. The best thing that we can do is stop and analyze. Am I creating a safe environment in my home for human connection? And what messages am I sending to my child about themselves and their body? And I think as parents, as we ask those questions, well, no, I think I can do better here. Let us be better. Because our children, they benefit when we are better.

Yeah, I love that. Thank you. And I don't know if you listeners are like me, but I seem to forget a lot of the illuminating insights and ideas spark during the podcast I listened to. So maybe we could go over again just the key points we've touched on today. When we first talked about the narrative which you just mentioned, the narratives and the home environment about our bodies, the message that we're sending about our bodies, the story we're sending about our bodies, and then increasing a better body positive, a life positive narrative that we love life and we value being healthy, we value life and we value this body that allows us to connect with life and with others. And then changing that narrative about everyone else's bodies, too. Maybe commenting less on body image or appearance of others and really getting past what we perceive down into the deeper realms of who people really are and comment more about that in our homes, with our children and the people around us. And we talked about healthy sexuality comes from real attachment, real bonding that are bigger, greater, deeper than just our bodies. The safety that we can feel with someone else, that's real intimacy. And that's where healthy sexuality and sexual satisfaction comes from. We talked a lot about paying attention, being attuned with our children, and seeing how they see themselves, which I feel like brings us full circle back to. We talked about this disconnect that begins to happen. Really. We're trying to restore an image of themselves. Not this partial, fractured ideology of who we are or how they think of themselves, but this connection with the whole self, the external and the. The internal, all connected, so that when they're out in the world experiencing something, they're not thinking, hey, how. How do I look when I'm experiencing this? Which is the world they live in? That's the Instagram world. That's all the social media app world. How do I look like when I'm experiencing this? Which is really sad because not being attuned to where we are and what we're experiencing, we're missing out on a whole lot. And so we can probably model that better in our homes and really connecting back into life, into each other.

The only thing that I really think that hopefully that everyone will take away is when we feel safe, we connect to our bodies and our. And other people. And to me, that's really what we're after here, is helping our children understand that is the foundation of all healthy relationships, is safety. And we need to be safe in our bodies and safe in our relationships.

Thank you I appreciate that so much. Dr. Skeener, thank you for taking time out of your very busy schedule to talk with us today.

This has been fun.

It has been fun. It's been really fun. You've been listening to Finding Noble. I'm Carly Redd. Follow Finding Noble on all available podcast directories and find out more on our website, findingnoble.com that's finding Noble. N o b l e.com and if you or anyone close to you are looking for further resources on young adult and adolescent mental health, Dr. Skinner and a host of other leading professionals working in the mental health world share courses and even answer your questions, all on parentguidance.org that is parentguidance.org brought to you by the Cook center for Human Connection.