Overcome Five Barriers to Intimacy and Connection — with Co-host Amy Andrus (Episode #8)

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Help but smile when you smile and.

Laugh when you laugh, something surround. Welcome to the Human intimacy podcast. I'm Dr. Kevin Skinner. I'm excited today to have Amy Andrus join us and be with us again. Amy, how are you doing today?

I'm doing fantastic. Getting ready to have a conversation with one of my favorite people about the issues that are so near and dear to me. So what can be better?

Well, today we get to talk about the barriers to human intimacy. Not talking about sex, talking about human connection, talking about this real version of intimacy. And I want to bring this one up because as I've been looking at the couples that we've been working with, I find so often, Amy, that our, the work we're doing, many people say, I just don't know how to do this. I don't know how to resolve problems.

Isn't it staggering when you have a couple who has been married 60 years and then they're finally shedding light on we don't know how to do this. And they've just been in so much pain and loneliness and wanting more, too afraid to even address that. And 60 years goes by.

Yeah, I'll never forget the email that I received from an individual whose life was passed, had passed. His children were out of the home. And he says, I'm now living in a relationship where my wife will hardly talk to me. I feel so alone, so isolated. And it's my fault because I've been so disconnected with work and then my hidden sexual behaviors in this case. But I, you know, seen it with people drinking, seen it with people who really aren't connecting in relationships. And it's just so sad to watch oh, it is.

And. And then that is what is so rewarding about, you know, our intensives that we do together. To see the shift from Wednesday to Friday, because so many times it is. The kids are out of the house, and now what do we do with one another? Because they haven't developed those skills of intimate to, To. To create intimacy between them as a couple.

Yeah. So today we're going to be focusing on five barriers. Obviously, there's going to be more barriers than this, but we're just going to be focusing on five core barriers that we have to overcome in order to create deep, intimate relationships that we long for. So I want to get started on this first one. Amy, I really like your thoughts on this. And the first one is the issues from our past, these unresolved issues that just seem to crop up in our relationships at various times. Sometimes early in the relationship, sometimes in the middle of it, but often there are these unresolved issues that just continue to hinder a couple's ability to connect. What's been your experience with that?

You know, it's. It's actually quite, Quite heartbreaking because going through, you know, the story of how did you get here? That you're in my office right now, they don't even recognize their. Their past unresolved issues that they have had pains with, with their parents growing up, their siblings growing up, their, you know, their peers, and they haven't made these connections. And to why they are so afraid of deeply connecting, which is typically, in my experience, it's. It's this web that has been spun for years and years and years, and yet they don't know the connection. They just believe something's wrong with me. And yet, you know, going back to hear the story, there are so. There are so. There's just so much unresolved pain that comes from their past.

Well, and how many times, Amy, have you seen it where somebody comes in and they initially say, oh, yeah, my childhood was just fine. Oh, no problems. I mean, yeah, my parents had their issues, but it wasn't really a big deal. And then we start talking with them, and we start talking about nurturing, we talk about connection. And their understanding of connection, which began clear back in their childhood, is. It's like once they start to wake up, the unconscious becomes conscious, and they look at these patterns. They're like, oh, my gosh, I, I had no idea how it's been influencing me and my relationships as an adult.

That has been profound for me, seeing that's, you know, all we know is what we know. And so participating in intensives with you, and you might, you might speak to, you know, how you have every couple rate their family of origin and.

Well, and that's what I actually do because I want to help people understand, like, let's just talk about life, our, our past. Let's look at grandma and grandpa. Let's look at great grandma and grandpa. And then we really talk about your parenting. And this is the question I ask. I've asked this question literally around the world. I've asked in Europe, I've asked it up in Canada, I've asked it to therapists down in Mexico and, and down in South America. But the question is this. On a scale between 0 and 10, how effective were your parents at teaching you how to have a healthy relationship? A zero. Not at all. A ten. They were outstanding. They were, they taught us how to have great relationships. Doesn't matter where I do it, the average is almost always somewhere between a 3.8 and a 4.2. There are, there are a few exceptions.

Well, and a few of those exceptions, reflecting on a, on a, on a past intensive, if you remember, the wife said, you know what? I would rate my family an 8 or a 9. And then as you begin to, to teach them about nurturing and eye contact and love and safety and these things, you know, her hand goes up, maybe it's a six or a seven.

Right.

And then the tears come. It probably is a 4 or 5.

Yeah. And, and again, we don't want to bash parents.

I have kids. I don't want everyone, them saying everything is, you know, it's all the mistake of my mom.

Ultimately, what we are looking at here is, it's just a truth. None of us as parents are given a really good manual of what to do in our parenting. But we aren't living in a society today. And if there's one thing that I'd like to start with here, we are not living in a society where, where we're learning how to have deep connections.

Amen.

And, and when I say deep connections, a lot of people may misunderstand what I'm talking about here, but just the self disclosure. I'm having a hard day. And a person being able to hold them in that hard day, or when we have conflict, we don't know how to resolve it. And, and then we start looking at nurturance. I can't tell you how many of my clients whose parents focus on tasks. We gotta get this done. We gotta get this done. We gotta get this done. Not about the Relationship of how are you son or how are you daughter? And. And so, yes, they were very good at tasks, but they were very low in terms of connection and feeling. Like when I had a hard day, I could go talk with mom or I could go talk with dad and I could feel support from them.

The world we live in currently, we have so many distractions that even create more barriers to those conversations happening with being on your phone or being, you know, just. So we have. We have even more barriers now.

Yeah. And we've lost. We've lost that connection the way that we may have in the past because it's so easy to turn to our devices, our computer games or whatever. So our time together is not requiring us to actually see a facial expression to. To understand, oh, wait a second, something feels off here because I'm. I'm in my phone and I'm not seeing your energy that you're feeling from whatever school or from work or whatever. And so we're feeling disconnected.

Right. Because you think when we grow up, you know, we got in the car, we weren't on our devices, so we were more likely to talk that coach, you know, at a practice. Or you were more likely to share because what did we have? The radio and. And then our parents are driving, so we don't really want to listen to their music. So I think we were more apt to talk. I don't know what your thoughts are on that.

No, I think that's. I think that's accurate. But again, that. That requires us to do a form of self disclosure. I don't like the way this practice turned out, or I don't feel like I did a good job or I feel sad about this, or I don't feel a part of the team, or I feel whatever it may be, and if I quickly jump into my phone or into some other activity, I don't have the chance to process through that experience. And I really think a big part of the anxiety that our youth and even as adults we're experiencing today is we're not able to complete those emotionally intense experiences because we're not. We're not disclosing them, we're not talking.

About them, and we're not even really experiencing them. We feel it distract. And so we don't even realize throughout one day how much we're burying hurt feelings and emotions. Emotions. It's just distract and. And really just ignore it.

Yeah. All right, so concept number one, and we've kind of floated a little bit between this topic and current issues, but unresolved issues from our past. Carl Jung. I love this statement. Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate. And I really think about that as such a critical thing until we make the unconscious conscious. So I say to our listeners, on a scale between 0 and 10, how effective were your parents at teaching you how to have a healthy relationship and give your. Give it a score. Not to blame, not to criticize. Just look at the realities. Did I learn how to communicate? Did I. Was I nurtured? Did I learn how to problem solve? Did I witness love and kindness? Or did I grow up in a home where it was task oriented, where my grades mattered more than our relationship? Or did I grow up in a home where I saw unresolved conflict and I never saw people resolve issues? Or did I see addiction? And how then does that influence us in our adult relationship? So first barrier to deep intimate connections in our adulthood are the unresolved issues that seem to cling to us, so to speak. The past.

Love that.

All right, one more interesting quote here. This comes from Youth Dynamics. That's the website. That which is left unresolved from our childhood will land on the lap of our romantic partnerships.

O. Oh, that is so good. Because it is that most intimate relationship with our partner that, you know, that unconscious that we bring, that there, that's. That just hits just right.

So then if we move to the second barrier that I want to talk about today, it's the fear of intimacy. And really, if we're building off this is if I look at my past and I think, okay, I can now understand more about my past now my fear of intimacy. What happens if my needs are not met? What happens if people don't love me? What happens if I screw it up? And so it's easier to push people away than to really allow them into our world, which is really what intimacy is, is letting people in to see us, right?

And I want to just say one more about getting our needs met. Depending on our. Our past unresolved issues, we. We might not even know what our needs are or that we have permission to ask for what we need, because we might not even know what that is, right?

We might not know our needs because we've never really had those needs met.

We. We. We don't even know. But then fear of.

Yeah, so we stop trusting people. We stop trusting or, or believing that people can help meet those needs.

It's interesting, the fear of intimacy. We see that so frequently in, in couples, in working, you know, we Work a lot with Ysas. And the fear of that. While the desire for that love and connection, that's one of, I mean the, that's one of our primary, primary wirings. And yet the fear of that can push us away from seeking it.

Yeah. So ysas, if you're not familiar with the term young single adults. Right. All right. To our listeners, just want to make sure they understand.

But I, that I, I am so lonely, but I am, I am so afraid of rejection if I, if I move towards someone, I'm so terrified.

And what's so interesting, there is this fear of intimacy we have not learned to deal with. I might use the word rejection. I don't necessarily like the word. We're not accustomed to people not continuing with us or being in a relationship. And so if we feel like if something failed, we don't realize that that's actually a gift. Because in a dating relationship, for example, if it doesn't work out, I want somebody who wants to be with me. I want somebody who genuinely loves me. And sometimes when we get into these relationships, we enter into them and we're accepting it. Unhealthy behaviors because we just want to be loved.

Right. And so I'm even talking about, you know, what, what are the desires of your heart? Well, I want to be married. Well, you know, that means you probably need to ask a girl on a date. Well, I'm too scared. I'm too scared. What if she says no?

Well, and let's take it a step further. The, the fear of intimacy. Again, I'm not going to refer to intimacy as sex. The ability to be, let people see us. But that fear of being seen. If I'm carrying shame, unresolved issues, then I don't want someone to see me because if they see me, they'll reject me, they won't want to be with me.

And if they really knew what I may, or you know, I may not be the person that they think I am, I'm going to protect that mask with at all costs.

Which then gets us into this third barrier, which is shame. Right. So you couple our past and you look at our fear of intimacy and now you look at the shame that we have about ourself. This conclusion that there's something wrong with me, that I'm not like other people. And you start to see how they've developed a negative self perception, a shame based belief which you do a lot of work with.

Yes. And it is to me that's, that's the most rewarding work in helping Them understand, you know, letting down that mask and being seen because I feel like that's, that's one of our primary desires is to be seen, to be loved to and, and our mistakes or, or past experiences, that's not who we are. Those are behaviors or experiences that we've had, but it has nothing to do with who we are as a human.

And yet we work with this all the time in our profession. Shame me, in my opinion may be one of the most challenging parts or barriers to intimacy because in our culture today, the conclusions that we draw that are shame based, I'm not enough, I'm unlovable, people wouldn't accept me. And so I'm not even going to try because if I try and I'm rejected, I don't know if I can live with the kind of rejection. And so when you look specifically at a relationship, whether it's we're, I'm considering going through a divorce or whether it's dating, I'm afraid of how culture is going to respond to this experience. And so we, we don't know how even in our most important relationships, we don't know how to be that kind of vulnerable with each other and let people see us.

Right. I mean even, you know, from a young man I saw last week who came in and said, okay, I just need to tell all the bad things about me. I'm like, wait, the bad things? You. There really aren't bad things. I want to hear about you as a person. The woman coming saying, I don't want to get divorced because all of the people in my neighborhood and my church think that we are just have the most amazing family and what will they think if then we're the ones getting divorced, you know?

Yeah. And, and then there's the vulnerability of saying I am having a hard time. Let's, I mean just talking across the board here for a second that I'm going to call it self disclosure because self disclosure is ultimately what draws us toward people and intimacy. But when I have shame, I don't dare talk about my weaknesses or I don't talk about my struggles because I'm embarrassed or afraid that people will not accept that. So whether that's that young man coming in saying I want to talk about my weaknesses and my flaws or that person who is looking at society and saying they're going to reject me. But what if I was to say I'm really having a hard time with my own behaviors.

Right.

And, and I, I need to change it. I need someone who can help me and hold me accountable or that person who's considering a divorce. It's really hard in our marriage right.

Now, and I am so scared. Those are the people, you know, when we look at the barriers to intimacy, acting like everything's perfect and everything is, those aren't the people that we really move, you know.

And so when we let down that facade and we are real, then we are overcoming this barrier of fear, of social rejection. Going back to that second concept, the fear of intimacy is that people will look into us and they just won't like what they're seeing, which is such a false perception. Because how many times when somebody comes to us and we hear their story, something I talk a lot about, we hear their story and like it all makes sense. Their suffering, their loss, their pain. But we as a culture have stopped really creating an environment where we can be vulnerable and open and let people into our lives. And to me, that's one of the saddest things about our culture today is we've lost the form of opening up and having people who are genuinely present with us.

Amen. It's, it's interesting. Just a young mother I was talking to at a recent volleyball game. She has four children, five and under with, she has a set of triplets, you know. Right. And I said, oh, wow, talk about the ultimate Groundhog Day. How is that? Well, you know what? I, I, I can't complain because it took us so much to be able to get these babies. You know, we had to do IVF and it's, but that has to be so hard. Is it, do you feel isolated? Do you kind of feel, you know, like you're trapped? She just starts crying. I am. So it is so hard. And I think most of us do feel lonely. Even it, even in a big crowd of people are lonely. Even when you're a stay at home mom and you have four children that are, it's, it's, it's hard and it's just being able to talk about the real emotions that we are feeling without feeling judged. Judged. Or then people are going to think you don't like being a mom because you say it's hard to have a set of triplets and a five year old.

Yeah. So that's a perfect example of somebody who would not have told you. That's exactly what I'm talking about here. They would not have told you. But you said, oh boy, that's got to be hard. And you continue down that path rather than, oh, I got to be grateful. Because notice that language Oh, I just got to be grateful. That's absolutely true. But it doesn't take away how hard it is having triplets. And that's the part we're trying to talk with people about is that deeper vulnerability of like, I'm so grateful, but boy, it's been harder than I ever anticipated. That's intimacy. And we are so as a culture, we've moved so far away from that that we're not having the kind of dialogues that lead to these kind of connections.

And think about the contrasting question, oh, I have a five year old and a set of triplets. Oh, that's so awesome. Triplet. You know, then she's going to go down the conversation of all the good things, which there are lots of good things, but she's not going to get into the loneliness, the desperate, like just the fear of, is this ever, Are they ever going to be potty trained? Just the, the reality of the weight of the burden she's currently carrying.

Yeah. And then what happens is we are one sided. In other words, we don't allow ourselves to go into that place that's really hard. We don't talk about it. And that's not, again, that's not intimacy because that is only one version of our lives and our experiences. And that as a culture is where we've shifted away from. Everything has to go perfect. And so we post the best pictures on our Instagram or Facebook accounts or whatever message we're putting out there. We only put the best, we don't put the. This was really hard, painful, difficult. It sucked. It was awful.

Right.

And humans were not one dimensional.

And you know, she, in that same conversation, you know, she said last week they all had the stomach flu. And you know, but she's not going to post that on her Instagram. You know, like you're saying we, we just create more barriers to really being and seeing each other by the perfectionistic culture and social media that we live in.

Yeah. All right, next topic. And this is the distraction of pleasure. Right. The barrier that we have in today's culture is everything is now instantaneous. I can consume substances that are more intense than they've ever been. I can do things sexually in ways that were probably never previously conceived. And today we live in a world where it's pleasure, pleasure, pleasure, which prevents us from actually taking time to be in relationships of commitment, time spent together, nurturing a relationship, going through conflict. And so we're living in a culture as I see it as one of the core barriers is we're living In a pleasure based culture, not a relationship.

Based culture, almost to a hedonistic level where pleasure is just at, literally just at your fingertips. And so then we see that lack of even distress tolerance to feel anxious, to feel lonely, to feel you could just grab something to take it away.

Yeah. And if we don't take this into account, we can all be guilty of this. See, even the pleasure of, or distraction of looking at our phones, spending time away from mental, something that requires mental connection, we can become so accustomed to it that this hard conversation, we're not having it. We're not talking about difficult emotions. And so I really believe what's happening in our anxiety, in our youth, and even us in adults is we're not having time to have these conversations. We're getting fed information, data from devices that is not allowing us to say, today was really hard at school or today was a hard day at work, or the kids, the three of them, oh my heavens, I don't know how to do this. Day in and day out, it's overwhelming me.

I love that the different areas that you bring up, because we might think, you know, you and I both, we love audible and so we wouldn't even think about listening to a book as a distraction to intimacy. It's. Well, I'm, I'm learning, I'm where it's okay. But how many, how many connections have I made with each of my kids, my co workers, my, you know, we. So much information that we have available to us and we can distract ourselves even just by information, by our podcasts, our books.

The consequence of that, culturally is that we have stopped the kind of connections that we physiologically long for. We're lonelier than we've ever been. We're more depressed as a culture than we've ever been. We're more anxious than we've ever been. And really, there's one solution that just trumps everything else and that is human connection.

Absolutely, Absolutely. You even look at, you know, recently I went to New York with my daughter and you get on a plane and it's. Everyone's just in their own head, literally. Where when I used to fly, they'd be like, hey, how you doing? Where are you from? And there would be some connection. And no, I'm not that person that you're not going to be able to escape from on the flight because I can maybe read when you're kind of done with the conversation, but there is zero of that now. Everyone is just, always just wired in.

Yeah. And in essence, we've stopped Seeing people. And the underlying consequence of that is we, we are going after that pleasure. And in our world today, the more we pursue the pleasure, the less we're spending time with what we long for. And that's real satisfaction, which really comes from spending time in conversations. I mean, think about the deepest conversation you've had in the last week. And, and this is to our listeners. Think about the last deep conversation you've had, what it felt like after that conversation. Contrast that with an evening with your phone being entertained by a, a television series or whatever that device is you're using. Tell me the difference between a meaningful conversation and, and that time and how you feel afterwards.

Love that question. I think we're talking a lot about anxiety and the disconnection. And I think we are still just barely at the cusp of recognizing the impact Covid had on, you know, masking and distancing and people stopped even making eye contact with one another. I think we're still reeling from that.

And again, the solutions, in my mind, I mean, if we're going to talk solutions to each of these things, and then I want to go on to our fifth, we're going to have to talk about how do we overcome our unresolved issues from the past? How do we address our fears of intimacy? How do we address our shame? And how do we stop seeking this pleasure that is overwhelming us to the point where we're not being relational? And then the final fifth part that I would like to add today is as a barrier is we haven't been taught the relationship skills that help us succeed in our relationships. So when's the last time we actually had a course on empathy and compassion? When's the last time we talked about problem solving and communication? If you just think about it as a culture, we spend more time on our maths and our sciences. We aren't spending time on how to be relational.

I have said to so many clients, I wish that in kindergarten kids would be taught emotional language and they would be taught, you know, what are you, what are you noticing in your body right now? What do you. If they could be, if we could learn these things in kindergarten rather than now. They come into our office, like I say, post 60 year marriage, and we're teaching these things. And the exciting thing is that we can change all of this with just the knowledge of, you know, these barriers and then teaching our, our children to avoid the same barriers.

You know, just a quick story, I don't know if you remember this intensive, but we had a couple from out of state, which we typically do when we do our intensives. And I was observing this couple, and they were interacting with each other, and I saw her voice start to get escalated. And I was watching his body language, because I always watch the body language, right? And I saw him just. It literally, it was like a frozen state. And it was literally like a little boy. And it felt to me like as his wife was talking, I saw this little boy manifest. And this. His wife was feeling unheard unless loved. And she's just trying to talk with him. Her voice wasn't raised. But for him, interpretation. I'm a bad boy. I did something wrong. I'm in trouble. And she's feeling absolutely isolated. She's feeling alone. Like, where are you going? And he did not know what to say. I paused them right in that dynamic. Right in that dynamic. And I said, wait a second, what's just happening here? I looked at him, I said, do you know how to respond to her? He had no clue.

Well, and if I recall, because similar situations have happened more than this couple, where then you will say, all right, how old are you feeling right now? And it's just fascinating how you can see that. That regression into that earlier space where, you know, those unresolved past issues where he was a little boy feeling like he was getting trouble from his mom and, you know, and his. His partner is what I. I am just talking to you.

Exactly. And so now we're talking about, okay, there's unresolved childhood issues. So barrier number one, that fear of intimacy, I'm going to say it wrong. I'm going to do it wrong, which is also part of the shame. And then you see this. Ultimately, when I don't know how to solve this problem, it's so much easier for me to go put my head into a computer screen. It's go so much easier to distract myself. And then you see these barriers combined, and no wonder we're not having great relationships. We don't have the relationship skills. Barrier number five, what would happen? And this is what I talked to him. I said, what would happen if you just leaned in and you just held her hand and you just listened?

Watching him do that, he does it so gently. And it's just the most beautiful result.

Oh, my gosh. That, that. That time in particular, and it's happened multiple times since, it was one of those times. I'm like, words aren't what needs to be said here. It's just your presence. And I asked, would you just take her hand and just listen? You don't have to say anything. And he's like, what do you mean I don't have to say anything? I said, just be present with your partner's pain. And so he did. I got an email a few weeks later after that experience, and they said, this simple, simple intervention has changed how we interact.

When you present just those basic needs, that model, it's game changer.

You know, we're going to actually talk about that in the upcoming podcast. We're just going to talk about the basic needs because I think that as a culture, if we just understood the basic needs, we would be better in relationships. So that will be an upcoming podcast. We're just going to be talking about the basic needs of human intimacy and how it applies to every relationship.

Absolutely. I want to say one more thing. You know, we talk about diversions with our computers, with our social media, but I mean, one of your most recent intensives, the diversion was just work, right?

Yeah, yeah.

Hiding behind. I have so much work to do. And anyway, so recognizing, you know, whether it's social media or work or shopping or podcasts, like, what are the ways, what are the barriers that we are using to disconnect inadvertently from the people we love the most?

Yeah. And so, again, that's spot on. What I want to say then to our listeners is this. If you want to have true intimacy, take these five barriers we've talked about and say, which of these do I need to work on? And we need to work on so we can be more connected in our relationships. If you're single, same concept. Right. Are there issues from your past that need to be resolved? Is there shame and internal voice that's holding you back? Do you have tremendous fears? And then I look at this and say, are we turning to these pleasures because we don't know what else to do? It's so easy. It's so easy.

And I love, Dr. Skinner, that you said, think about ourselves because it's so easy. When we get a list of, okay, well, he does that and. And he does that, and he does that. Where you're. You're asking, okay, look at yourself.

Well, ultimately then, isn't that the issue? Am I good at intimacy? I love the way Tara Brock said it. Do I make it easy to love me?

I love that.

Because if we're going to achieve true intimacy, that's what we're doing, is we're making it easy to love us. And if we do that right, then. Then honestly, I have more influence on this. I can be that kind of a loving person. And the truth is, when I am that kind of a person, I expect it back.

Right.

I'm going to be in a relationship where people are going to validate, people are going to love me. That's what I'm going to get in my relationship.

Love it. Love it.

All right, thank you so much, Amy. It's so much fun talking with you. I think we could just do this for hours. I we're actually going to do that as we continue on this podcast. Any final thoughts for our listeners today?

I'm just excited.

All right, so I want to just add one more thing. If you are struggling in your relationship, if you want deeper connections, if you have not taken test your relationship, you're in a committed relationship, you want to improve your skills, test your relationship will give you an 85 page report that will specifically focus on the areas that you and your partner can improve on in these types of intimacies. It will help you understand the barriers that you're currently facing in your relationship. So I strongly encourage you, if you haven't taken the time, take the test, go through the content and you and your partner can have a deeper, more intimate relationship.

And Dr. Skinner, that can be found on your website.

Yeah. Human intimacy.com and I will actually put a link on the show notes for today. They'll be able to look at it there. But I'm going to encourage everybody. You want deeper connections, Learn the skills so you can succeed. We're going to continue to talk about healthy relationships in our upcoming podcasts.

Every relationship that's we have a, an amazing relationship. How can we make this even better? Let's look at the, you know, shining light on, on the areas we can improve. I love that.

All right, well, thank you for listening today. And Amy thinks it's always good to be with you.

Thank you. Bye. Bye.

It's like you're shining, you're staring.