Overcome Your Parental Perfectionism & Shame

Foreign. Welcome to Finding Noble, a podcast where we climb into the world of young people's mental health and where we provide support for the adults who support them. I'm your host, Carly Redd. Welcome to another episode of finding noble. Welcome, Dr. Skinner.

It's good to see you, Carly.

It's good to see you, too. Today we are discussing parental shame, which is a topic I know, that you've been wanting to discuss for a while. Is that right?

It actually is. And as we get further in this conversation, I think it will be more apparent of why.

Yeah, I'm excited to talk about it. What's interesting, when you first presented this as a topic that maybe we could be discussing, I didn't quite grasp the direction or the need for why until we had our pre. Discussion before this on what did we mean by parental shame? And kind of after that conversation, I gathered that when we say parental shame, it's more of when my child doesn't choose what I want for them. What does that say about my child? But more importantly, what does that say about me? And. And why am I feeling feelings of inadequacy or the destructive patterns of shame?

Yeah, absolutely. If I was to just kind of give our listeners a kind of an idea of what I mean by this and what we're really going to be talking about is as a parent, obviously our children, they come with their own emotions, they come with their own sometimes their own agenda. And sometimes as parents, we feel like we are completely responsible for our child's outcome. And if they don't turn out the way that we want them to turn out, if they don't do what we want them to do, if they're doing something embarrassing to us, then it's easy for us to internalize that and say, what did I do wrong? Because my neighbor's child, that. I mean, look at them. They're. They're going to yell and they're. Whatever it may be, and they don't throw temper tantrums in the stores.

Yeah. And I think at the beginning, when we have this newborn kid, we just feel like we're off to this auspicious start where we feel like we have control over what's going to happen to this child, who this child's going to become, instilling our personal value system, almost imbibing them with that value system, infusing it inside them, and then feeling like we have a lot of control over the life direction that they take. But I. As time goes on, we see that we don't have as much Control, as.

We thought and as I, if I was to take off of that. So we have our expectations of what we think it's going to be like to be a parent, and then maybe we're far off. Maybe our child has energy that we don't know what to do with, or maybe it triggers something from us that we're ashamed of. And so sometimes our parental shame is actually our unresolved shame. Shame of things that maybe we experienced as a child. My child's exact acting exactly like I was, and I'm scared that they're going to turn out like I did. They're going to be bullied, they're going to be rejected. And now, oh, you can't wear that to school because if you wear that, they're going to make fun of you.

Yeah, that's dense. That's really dense. You can feel that that goes really deep and can go back really far. Even beyond just one generation. It could go back multiple generations. I think we're all aware of generational trauma and that. So I guess I want to cover these questions today.

Yeah.

When your child doesn't become who you imagined or doesn't make choices that you desire, why do we experience shame? How does our shame influence our kids? And what can we do to disentangle and extricate ourselves from unrealistic expectations or maybe unhelpful expectations?

So let me just start off with that first one. Why do we experience shame if we were to define shame? Shame in and of itself is a perception that others would reject me or we are not as good as others. So internalization of shame is, there's something wrong with me. I'm not quite doing it right, or my child isn't quite doing it right. So the idea of shame is really, historically, it's a term that's been used for a long time. Even Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, you know, they were naked and they were not ashamed, and then they partake of the fruit, and then they cover up and they hide because they were ashamed of what they had done. So even early on, we get the idea of. Of whether you're religious or not, that we have thousands of years ago where one of the first recorded emotions is actually shame.

Right.

And really, shame is always relational. In other words, I. I think, okay, that shame, others, others around me in my community, if they knew what was happening, they would judge it. And sometimes if we've grown up in a home where there is a lot of pressure, a lot of expectation, we have to act this way. We have to be this way. Well, what happens when I'm not that way? Then I feel ashamed that I'm not measuring up to the expectation of my culture or of my religious faith or of my community. And so now I'm not like everybody else. So what do you do when we're in shame? Well, we pull back. We don't be relational. And that's one of the core concepts here, is if we look at this as a parent now and our child is doing something that we are embarrassed by throwing a temper tantrum in the, in a grocery store, one of the more common ones that every parent laments when they have to go into a store. Mom, can I have this? Dad, can I have this? Right.

I, I've actually gotten kicked out of multiple stores.

It happens. Right. So, so now it's like what do we. The embarrassment. Others are judging me because I can't control my child. So your, to answer your question, why do we experience shame? It's because we feel that we don't belong, we don't fit in this community that we have created in our minds of what's normal and what's right, so to speak.

Yeah. When I'm hearing you talk, I, I'm thinking that there's fear underlying all of this, that there's so much fear of not belonging or not being accepted. Where we come from as humans and our biological makeup, that is one of our greatest motivators is making sure we belong in the tribe, in the group and how do we do that? And so if we don't conform to the value system of that group, we therefore may be kicked out of that group. And that still drives us today. Maybe that fear is one of the greatest drivers. Another thing that I really liked you saying is, well, I don't like it, but that I picked up on was you said when we have shame, it creates distance between us and another person. And so going back to maybe explain more of what that does to a parent and a child, when a parent experiences shame, what does that do to the parent child relationship?

Yeah, so let's expand there because when I'm as a parent and I'm feeling shame, then either I'm going to project that onto my child. You can't wear those clothes would be a very, you know, you shouldn't wear those clothes because my projection is you're going to be judged for wearing those clothes. You don't fit within the expectation of our, of the culture. So that then I parent that way. I actually parent from a shame based mindset okay. And so now I'm, I'm actually in maybe increasing my child's either resistance because some children say I don't care what you tell me to wear, I'm going to wear what I want to wear. Now I feel inadequate because I can't influence my child and I somehow, I just know they're going to go into society and they're going to be judged, they're going to do something that's going to make me look bad. So now I'm sending them that message. I'm feeling it. How can they not pick it up?

So true.

Either A, they're going to resist us and then I feel out of control, inadequate and they feel like I don't care about them, or B, they conform and now they're living a shame based mindset, my mindset, because they're conforming to my fears.

The worst part of all of this is that as I'm reflecting myself doing this with my own children, it's not on the surface. This is all subconscious. This is happening at a level that I'm not even aware of, which is kind of disturbing. But also when we are speaking to our children, most often it's coming in kind of terse or pointed remarks that we don't take the time to develop why we want them to change their clothes or why we want them to behave a certain way. There's no understanding behind the command or the action. It's just, I need you to do this, therefore you need to do that. And I imagine with children especially, they don't like to be told what to do and as is anybody. And that's where you start to create, you know, contention in the home.

Right. And it's exactly the opposite of what you want. The message that they're receiving from us is you're not adequate, you're doing something wrong. Right, Right. And so the message they're hearing from us is not the message we're trying to communicate. The message we're trying to communicate is don't embarrass us. But that's not the message we're saying either. If we really dug deeper and this is how we separated out answering your question, how we disentangle and extricate ourselves from this is we really have to understand ourselves. Let me, let me give a story to illustrate this concept. So when I do therapy with individuals, I do what's called, we call it called a genogram. And we look at generations of how families, belief system, their language influences them in their lives and in this Specific situation. I was doing that with an individual. And she was fascinated by it because we were talking about her fear of really spending money. And some people say, I would love to marry that person. Right. But it was. She had a fear of spending money. And so we started looking at her generations of family beliefs. And the belief that she came to in her family was it's, don't ever waste money because there's limited resources. And if you do that, then somebody else will be put out. So if she was invited to go to a trip with some friends, she. She was almost in this place of, oh, I better not, because that's excessive. And so the family belief is you just can't have nice things. That's really what that led to. And so if she wanted something new, a new dress, new car, it was embarrassing. It was shame. It was, no, that's. I can't do that. So that's just one example of how a family can pass down generational perception of things that we can and can't do well.

And I think when we talk about a value system initially, that sounds fantastic to have a family system that we carry on from generation to generation. Aristotle said every virtue taken to an extreme is a vice. It's kind of that concept where if, if we take anything to an extreme, such as in that situation and pass it down, it can ruminate and get worse and fester and start to cause shame. And shame is never helpful, is what I know all therapists say. Shame was not helpful. And so I'd. I really like this conversation. Talking about how to remove the shame is so often going back into. What did you call it? A genogram. Going back into. Yeah, of our, our long established value systems.

So let me expand on that just a little bit. So if we were really to do that, what do we do? You know, we look at physical health like, I know my history with heart attacks and strokes, having a bad heart in my family, it's a big deal. So understanding the story of how my family deals with health issues, substance use issues, or any other relationship challenges is really helpful to understand your history because you may be carrying some things that aren't yours, some ideas, some beliefs or perceptions that have been passed down from generation to generation to generation. There's a book called it didn't start with you, which is a very interesting book that really talks about this concept. And they talk about for three or four generations, we pass down cellular memories from generation to generation. So you may be feeling shame from a great grandparent who something happened to him.

Wow, that's heavy. And unfair. That seems a little unfair.

Or maybe, could I put it another way? Yeah, it could be seen as unfair or it could be seen as an opportunity to increase the awareness, to change it for the generations to come. So everybody can be a chain breaker.

How would we go about doing that? How do we create more awareness? I think we're all acting so blindly often that we're not paying attention to why we value what we value and why we behave the way we behave and why we create certain expectations in our home for our children. How do we go about doing that? How do we create more awareness in ourselves so that we can start to free ourselves, disentangle ourselves from generations of maybe extreme value systems that aren't helping us?

Yeah. So this question is one that we could spend the rest of our time together with. Because the first part of this is you can't change what you don't understand, which means that we have to get more insight. And that insight then leads to more and more awareness. So as our insight grows, our awareness grows. So let's say that in our family our expectation is that everybody's going to go to college, right? Because we know that college is the best thing and that's, that's the family value system. Everyone goes to college. Well, what happens when I have a child who would rather do a trade and become a plumber or become an electrician or they, they don't have to go to college. What happens if they self teach to get a computer degree or computer programming and they know how to do it and they don't even need college? See, then, then, then my belief is the only way you're successful is if you go to college. That means if we're going to untangle that, we have to be flexible and adaptable and understand our children well enough.

I don't know if you follow David Brooks at all. One of his books that I love is the Road to Character and I was perusing through it this last week and there was a section on parenting and what sometimes our expectations do to our children in ways that hinder their development. He says this. Some parents unconsciously shape their expressions of love to steer their children toward behavior they think will lead to achievement and happiness. Parents glow with extra fervor when their child studies hard, practices hard, wins first place, gets into a prestigious college or joins the honor society society. In today's schools, the word honor means earning top grades, which is interesting. Parental love becomes merit based. It is not simply I love you, it is I love you when you stay on my balance beam. I shower you with praise and care when you're on my beam. Some children assume that this merit tangled. Love is the natural order of the universe. The tiny blips of approval and disapproval are built into the fabric of communication so deep that it is below the level of awareness. Enormous internal pressure is generated by the growing assumption that it is necessary to behave in a certain way to be worthy of another's love. And underneath, the children are terrified that the deepest relationship they know will be lost. The parental relationship is supposed to be built upon unconditional love, a gift that cannot be bought and cannot be earned. It sits outside the hyper competitive system built upon merit, and it is the closest to humans come to grace. I think this goes in line so well with what you're saying, that when you're not on that beam, when you're not on that path that I've created for our family and you jump off of it, how does that change our relationship? What it, what kind of relationship are we going to have now? That feels uncomfortable for me as a parent. I don't know how to interact with you now that you didn't accept the path that I offered you, the expectation.

That I had for you. Right?

Yes, go ahead.

So we could break his down, what he said, and it would really be valuable for us and that concept of being on the beam. Let's, let's make it more practical here for a second, right? If you get the grades that I expect you're going to get, if you make whatever dance team or the sports team or you, you get, you get into that role. Oh, I'm so proud of you. But what happens when you get cut? What happens when you get that B or C? What happens when something happens and you don't measure up to what that expectation is? Then how do you come home? I can't tell you how many people have sat in my office and said, I got a B. And I got this look from my dad and it was, well, you got a B. What's wrong with you? And, and it's this energy of there is something wrong with you if you didn't get an A. I had someone come into my office throughout my career, probably I more than once, multiple times. I got an A minus. And my mom looked at me and said, why didn't you get an A? I mean that class is an easy class. You're smarter than that. And, and the message, and the message, underlying message there. I mean, that's one of the reasons why they're sitting in my office is because they're not good enough. And so that what they end up doing is they end up compensating because they're trying to prove that they're enough. And so they overcompensate, they work harder, they'll be the person at the job that they'll work themselves to death when they get older, trying to get the approval from their childhood that they never got from a parent.

So let me ask you this question then, because we hear about the best possible version of parenting, is you have that quadrant. Most people have seen it where you have expectations and love. And if you have low expectation, low love, that's like the worst. Then if you have low expectation, high love, it's not the best. If you have high expectation, low love, not great. But the number one thing you want or the best quadrant to be in is high expectation, high love, right? And so as parents who are trying to create that environment where their kids have high expectations and high love, and then our high expectations aren't met, and we feel like we're giving high love, what do we need to evaluate there, the type of expectations and the type of love. Are we creating an environment where we are giving conditional love, like he said, like David Brooks said, where we're only praising them for their external achievements and abilities? What does he say right here? The tiny blips of approval and disapproval are built into the fabric of communication so deep that is below the level of awareness. Like, we don't even know that we're doing it. Is that something we need to do? Because going back and referring to the.

Insight part that I'm talking about there, Carly, again, if we don't have enough insight, we don't even recognize the blips. We. We don't even question our messages that we are sending to our children or, or maybe even to ourselves because we're so patternistic. If we don't stop and understand, why do I care about what I actually care about, whether my child goes to a specific college or does a certain thing in academics or sports, whatever. Why does it matter to me Now? Now let's look at it. That's the expectation. Questioning our own expectations and questioning the messages that we're sending to our children. So that part of it is understanding our expectations. Then the message I'm sending from those expectations. Then we look at the other side, and that is, how does your child, and this is maybe a question to all of our listeners, how does your child know that you love them? What messages Are they getting about your love? So think about it, mom and dad. How do you tell your child that you love them? And boy, this one's a very interesting self introspection, because I can say the words. But how. How does your child feel? Your. I'll change the word. That you value them, that you genuinely care about them. How do they know that? And that's a very humbling question. As a parent.

So many things are going on in my mind as you're saying. That's just reflecting on my own parenting. I think sometimes you mistake high love for. I'm doing very intentional, quality types of interactions right, with my kids, and I'm spending time with them doing homework or whatever. And yes, those are all really good things. I think those are all really good things. But sometimes when we become so intentional on these quality conversations, we neglect relationship building. The fun stuff, the silly stuff, the warm stuff, the stuff that keeps our kids desiring to be near us and us near them. It's bonding. I love Jerry Seinfeld. I think most people like Seinfeld, but I really like kind of his outlook on life. And I think it's been more recently people have been asking him parenting questions because he seems to be a very passionate parent. But I heard this recently from him. I'm gonna read it to you. He says, this is on parenting. I'm a believer in the ordinary and the mundane. These guys that talk about quality time always find that a little sad when they say, we have quality time. I don't want quality time. I want the garbage time. That's what I like. You just see them in the room reading a comic book and you get to kind of watch that for a minute or having a bowl of Cheerios at 11 o' clock at night when they're not even supposed to be up. The garbage. That's what I love. And I think in today's world, because we want to be so good at parenting, we're kind of passing over where the richness of human experience lies. Those moments where nothing is getting done, nothing is being accomplished. The garbage time, the time that connects us. Like, when I think of this bonding, I think of dumb, but you know, I'm top gun on both of them. The first one and the second one, there's that scene on the beach where they're like team bonding and they're playing volleyball in their jeans or football in their jeans and they get in trouble and they're like, what were you doing? And Tom Cruise comes back and says, you said create a team. This is how we create a team. And it's that kind of stuff that creates the, the rich connection that we're hoping for in a relationship. And at least on my end, when I'm watching families right now, in my current culture and where I live, we are so consumed by this external achievement and ability, this cult of busyness that we seem to get so much worth from, that we are missing kind of these relational aspects of our family life. And I think not only is it hindering development within our kids and finding out who they actually are, but it's also feels like we're just gritting our teeth and trying to get through on willpower rather than being fueled by family relationships and the good parts of family life.

I love that. I love that story of Top Gun. That's one of my favorite parts of that movie. I mean, the second one is fantastic. I love the second one for multiple reasons, but that scene in particular, you know, when you're trying to build a team, when you play with your child, when you laugh with your child, when you tell them that was outstanding and you intentionally find things that they're doing every day, just the mundane things. And we say that was really good. That what bonds us together is those simple little messages that said, I love it when you do that, or if that was really good, how did you do that?

Or even I, I love spending time with you. You are so fun to be with. I think that when I say that to my kids, their faces light up in ways that I can do in any other way just by saying I loved sitting here reading to yours or snuggling with you while we watched this movie. That was so fun for me today to make them feel like just their presence was important to my day.

Yeah, and again, we might call it mundane time because it's not task oriented and that actually what we're trying to get away from. So let me go back to one other concept related to internalized shame. What do you do when your child, you can see their shame? And I'm just give one little tidbit there. If we understand that our child's experiencing shame, the way we actually help them out of that is help them give a voice to it. What is the shame? And just do the same process, increase insight so you can change awareness. And then you begin to shift into being relational with them. You know what? I know you may think that you didn't, you're not doing that right or there's something wrong with you. But I'm going to tell you, your effort Here. Going back to our podcast on the growth mindset, your effort here is really impressive. That's how we actually take away shame, is teach them how to address themselves with compassion. I am trying. I am working hard. I'm doing the best I can. And that's the message you want to send to your child, is that through effort and diligence, you're going to be fine. Just keep trying, keep getting up when you fail. Keep going, keep doing it. And that's what we need to do with ourselves too.

Well, and to start talking about effort as a form of success, not just a means to success. So that their daily efforts or, or, you know, even minute to minute efforts are actually moments of success. Not like, oh, you'll eventually get to that success at some point. It's, you are, you are succeeding right now because look at what you are trying to do in this moment. We often focus so heavily on the end goal. We're so consumed with the product that we rush through hoping to get to the end point without recognizing the value of all of that in between stage. Yeah, where all the growth happens.

Well, and if I could just expand on that just a little bit. I wonder if in our culture there's two sides to this. You talked about the quadrants. When I have low expectations and low love, my child probably doesn't think I care a lot about them, which can also be a version of shame. It's like I'm not, I'm not important enough for my parents to care about this. Then if I just give love with no expectations, then my child thinks I don't really care about what they're doing. I just love. I love you, whatever that means. But ultimately, this process of showing love and having expectations, what we're teaching our child is I see who you can become. And I don't want to, I don't want to force you into that role. But man, I see your capacity here. You have so much good inside of you. I hope you can see it, your potential. I mean, just as a parent, I'm watching you. I'm in awe of who, who you're becoming and what you can achieve in life.

These questions on how much control do we really have over how our kids turn out? I think really the more developed and matured question is how much control do we really have over who our kids actually are? Who are our kids? And I think a lot of us don't spend the time or find the curiosity to hear and listen to what's really important to our child. And maybe instead of talking at so much and making sure their goals and expectations match ours. Maybe listen to what your child wants to achieve. What are they curious about? What are they interested? So often we parent, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but we parent out of our insecurities or our insufficiencies where I feel like I'm not enough, I want my kid to be that. I want my kid to be enough. And so somehow, if they are enough, egotistically, it's filling that void in me at some level. And so instead, when we say, disentangle ourselves from our children, we're really embracing their individuality as a human being, their differences and their strengths, and then be flexible with what kind of goals they want to achieve and collaborate with them and then help them as they try to meet those goals. You know, build resilience, build good habits as they try to reach that. But it's less about us, and I think that's hard, is to remove yourself from them in that way.

Carly, that's such a critical point that you're bringing up here. Let me explain from my perspective why, when I have an expectation of my, what my child's going to do, that concept of I'm trying to mold them in, what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to mold them into my unfinished business.

Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah. That's a much more succinct way of saying it.

Yes, but, but that's really what it is. It's, I'm trying to mold them into something that I wasn't able to do or I wasn't able to finish. And so we often see that we're trying to push our children into being that better version of us.

Yeah.

But in reality, they may not want to be, they want to be their own version. So I, I, I want to talk about a parenting style that would make sense to people, and it's called Yoda parenting style.

I like it already.

Right. Because what did Yoda do when he's first training Luke Skywalker? He could have taken the plane, the vessel, and, and just taking it out of the swamp. He could have. Right. He knew how to do that, but he needed to teach a lesson. So Luke Skywalker doing that on his own, what did he come to believe about himself as a result of doing that? And so Yoda type parenting is allowing our children to understand that we believe in them, but we're asking them to do some hard things. So I believe your ability to do hard work at school. Let's, let's Walk through how that, what that looks like. And by the way, let's look at your hardest classes and let's look at what's most difficult for you. And do you need my support? Versus you've got to get good grades, you've got to spend more attention. You've got to do this. It's, what can I do to support you? How can I help you accomplish your goals? Do you see how we're separating this out? So now they're forming their identity based upon them and their desires.

So many parents, me being one of them, who have gone to a parent teacher conference, and, you know, you're kind of holding your breath as you're waiting for the teacher to start talking about your kid. They can go one of two ways, really. Either we love your child, they're so great, or we've been really struggling with this or this, or they are struggling in math, or they're a little behind in this, or they can't sit still and they chat a lot. Which is the one I get the most with my kids in that moment. And I know so many parents that feel this way. Men and women feel like there's something they are lacking because their children may be struggling with math or that. Something that they've neglected within their home or their child if their child is creating disturbance in the class or like I said, underdeveloped in a certain area of school. And so how do we change that? How do we change the shame that we feel when our kids aren't the best at everything that they do? What are. What kind of messages do we need to be saying to ourselves?

So.

Because that seems silly, saying it out loud. Saying it out loud. You're like, of course they can't be the best at everything. That's ridiculous. We don't even. That's. Nobody's the best at everything, right?

And in that situation, talking about the message that I'm getting as a parent, right, obviously I'm not teaching my child properly, I'm doing something wrong. But if we took it a different way and said, okay, that's great feedback. In our field, there's a term called feedback analysis. And really the only. The change that we make in life is we take feedback and we analyze it and say, oh, that's. That's feedback. So here's the feedback we're getting. As a parent now, I could become defensive and, and. And get frustrated. The teacher. I could feel attacked, I could feel ashamed, or I could take it as feedback and say, all right, that is very informative. Now I go to my child and I say, I had this great conversation with your teacher and it seems like these are a couple of the things that your teacher is highlighting. Can you talk with me about what your thoughts are about it? I would love to get your perception and then together, let's come up with a strategy because this is something that we got feedback from the teacher of things that can be better. And I want to help you with this experience at school. How does that sound? And that's a very different approach than approaching it from a shame based approach. I'm basing it, hey, this is great feedback. If we teach our children that anything is feedback, let's take it as a gift. Feedback as a gift, not as you're not doing it right. Let's take it as, wow, that's incredible. That's information that we can improve on.

I like this idea of having gratitude for the feedback because if we kind of shift a perspective a little bit that we have other eyes on our children, that other people can see things that maybe we can't, or if we have multiple kids, it's nice to know that there's another human that's taking care of them in moments when your attention is somewhere else and seeing things that maybe you're not seeing. So I like that gratitude. I also like this awareness around why did I. I have these feelings of inadequacy. Now is the time I can take these feelings of inadequacy or shame or I'm lacking something and turn it into less about me, some intrinsic lack that I have and turn it towards a relational opportunity with my child where we convert this to a relationship building bonding experience where we can help them, we can sit and spend time with them, we can talk about something that maybe they're struggling with and really get inside our child in a way that we wouldn't have if they were perfect at everything.

Yeah. And when we do it that way, we're having a very meaningful conversation that is really, it's again, it's a Yoda type of parenting where I'm not. I'm not. Again, I'm not telling you what to do. I'm brainstorming with you. Your child is the expert, you are the support. You. That's really what this is, is they're building the foundation worth the scaffolding to help them stay within the guidelines or the boundaries. That's a much more effective way of looking at parenting than I. I'm actually building this for you because when I feel like I'm building It for you. They get done. I can't tell you how many people are Eagle Scouts because of their moms. Right, right. And. And so, so that. That self perception. I have a foundation that I know I can do it. And that's really the type of parenting that takes away shame. Because what you're allowing them to do is realize that they can deal with whatever the issues are, whatever they come up with. They have confidence because you've created an environment where when they look inside they say, I did that. I did it.

I don't know if you're familiar with Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. I'm sure I didn't say that exactly. Correct. He was a visionary French Jesuit priest and a biologist and a philosopher. And I know he's popular beyond just a Christian community. Community. But there's this quote that kind of has floated around in the last few years. I think it was taken from a letter he wrote to his cousin Marguerite in 1950. And it's from the front trenches in World War I, which I think that context is relevant because of what he says. So I'm going to read it right now. He says we are quite naturally impatient. Everything to reach the end without delay. We should like to skip the intermediate stages. We are impatient of being on the way to something unknown, something new. And yet it is the law of all progress that it is made by passing through some stages of instability and that it may take a very long time. And so I think it is with you. Your ideas mature gradually. Let them grow. Let them shape themselves without undue haste. Don't try to force them on as though you could be today. What time that is to say grace and circumstances acting on your own goodwill will make of you tomorrow. And then. I love this part. Except the anxiety of filling yourself in suspense and incomplete. I think that is life changing. Especially as we parent. We're so eager to see the fruits of our labors. As parents we want to feel validated that we've sacrificed our lives for some grand penultimate purpose. But we can't skip to the end. And this middle part is where it's all happening. This is where all the growth, all the connection, all the bonding, all the learning is happening. And we're so eager to jump to the end to see the finished product. And instead of maybe just learning to accept the anxiety of filling yourself and your children incomplete, we're all incomplete. We're all still just passing through those intermediate stages.

I really like that they work in progress.

Yeah.

Which is all of us. Right. We're all this work in progress. So something interesting about that. When we think about the end goal in mind, that's a great way to parent with the end goal in mind. But it needs to be adaptable.

Yes.

Because rigidity creates an environment where it literally creates problems. So the best we can do is be flexible and adaptable and make changes accordingly. That's also how we can reduce shame. Because when we're too rigid, the message is it has to be my way or this way, whatever that right way is. Flexibility is sometimes there's different ways to get to an end destination. And I'm amazed when we understand that principle, how effective we can do that. You know what? Try that. Let's see how that works out. And now you start to create inside of your child this. Well, I'm going to explore that. Creativity is also that part that reduces the shame. Because again, if it's one way and only one way, that path really, what if I don't do it exactly that way? The message is, I'm not quite right. There's something I'm doing it wrong.

Exactly. I think reminding ourselves and our children that there are a myriad of ways to live a good life and a successful life, and that what we may define as success may be different than what our children values. But at the same time, I think if we were to honestly ask ourselves, what is it I'm hoping for my child? I don't think a lot of us honestly ask that question to ourselves. What is it that we really want for them? Do we really want them more than anything to be a Harvard grad? Why. Why is that so important to us? What is it that we're hoping for? And. And then when we get to the end of it, ultimately, I want my child to be happy. That's what I want. And, and the elements of happiness, as we study them more and more scientifically based, are relational. Having good relationships, having a healthy outlook, having good mental health, good physical health. And then these elements of success that we stress so heavily seem to fall to distant places in our. Our list of ways to be successful. And then all of a sudden we're like, actually, I'd rather. I want to make sure that they're a kind person, that they are a loyal person, that they are a loyal partner and a loyal parent and a. A charitable person. Those are all things that I actually do care about most. And am I putting more emphasis on that than I am some of these other things, like grades or whatever? And I think so much of that is embedded within Our current culture. I was going to say Western culture, but I think it's becoming a global culture. I think it's spreading across the globe, east and west, where these external characteristics define who we are rather than more of these internal and even relational aspects to our lives that. That make us the happiest.

Yeah, I appreciate that, that, that concept. Because we, as maybe our society, we can have a culture where we create shame, because everything that we do is built upon a list. This, this, this, this, this is, is how you achieve value. But when I sit with you and you and I have a conversation and I send a message of, hey, just being relational, the maybe the best antidote to shame is actually being relational. Sending them the message that they are important for your time and you're willing to spend that time with them. Maybe the best way to help them deal with shame is, Is to realize that we want a relationship with them regardless of the challenges that they're having. And anytime they can come to us and talk with us, that can actually help reduce their shame. Shame grows in silence. Shame grows when I can't talk about things. So when I can be relational with you and say, mom, dad, I'm struggling in math. Mom, dad, I'm struggling with pornography. Mom, dad, I'm having a hard time with xyz. Wow, thanks for sharing that. That helps me understand some of the challenges. Let's talk about that. Let's create a plan. How can I support you? How can I help you again? Let your child be the expert, you be the scaffolding.

I was going to ask you, out of all the things we've talked about, what would you say is the best form of parenting? If we're not trying to mold our children into the image of ourselves? How. How do we do this? Why are we here? Why are we even doing what we're doing? And how do we do it? And I, I think you said that so wonderfully, that we are the scaffolding that helps them grow into the best versions of themselves, not the best version of ourselves.

That's right. Right. So I, I guess to. Quick summary. We as parents need to make sure that our stuff is not interrupting their growth. So we need to deal with anything that could be shame within us. And once you deal with the shame inside of you, then really, then I can parent authentically because I'm allowing them. I'm not, I'm not trying to say you have to become this. I'm supporting and helping them thrive with the environment that we're creating. You want your child to have an environment where they can thrive. And that environment is one where they can explore and they can experience things, failure and success. I have a friend of mine, many years ago, he's like, to his kid, you want to build a go kart? You figured out, but I supported 100%. Boy, did they ever get in trouble with their go kart. But they figured out the mechanics of it, and they put their minds together and they created it. These same two people have, I believe, currently, I don't know if it's still that way. They have the flight record. They built their own plane and flew it from the west coast to the east Coast. They're twins. You can look it up. And they flew from California to the west east coast. And the parenting that they experienced growing up was, have fun with this go kart. Figure it out. And that's the mindset. Let your children thrive in the environment you create.

I've heard it said before that we get to create the soil, that we get to choose what kind of environment it is. But we. We don't get to choose when the plant comes up. We don't get to try to coax it to bloom. We don't prod it and poke at it, making sure it happens. We just get to control the environment and the soil in which they grow. But exactly how or. Or even the direction that they choose to grow in or what they become is not necessarily ours to choose. It's theirs.

And, and that doesn't mean that we don't have to. We. We have to put down what our values are or our expectations. I think we have to hold true, question those core values. I think we have to keep into our. The are the things that we value the most. If I do care about education, I would like my child to understand why education matters. If I care about developing a skill, playing a music instrument, I would want to explain why that matters. But. But helping them understand, these are the things that I think will help you be well rounded in life. And. And these, again, I. You want to play an instrument, let's figure out which instrument you'd like. You want to play a sport, let's figure out which sports you like, and let's just try different ones and experiment. But here's the thing. If you're engaging in those things, I know it's going to be good for you socially, it's going to be good for your body, and you're going to have strength because you're learning a skill and a talent that you're about to take with you for the rest of your life. So that's kind of the why it matters. Now, let's talk about what, how you would like to go about that.

So well said. Okay. Is there anything else that we haven't covered today that you wanted to cover or any points that you find important?

If there's anything I could conclude with today, from my perspective, be cautious not to shame yourself, because parental shame influences every interaction you're going to have with your child. It will influence how you communicate with them. It will influence the way you express love to them. Everything you do. When you give the parenting love without shame, they know they're loved. But when you parent with your shame, they will feel that there's something off, and you will feel like there's something off. So if you're stuck with shame, make sure you deal with it so much.

I think I'm going to go back and listen to this podcast once a week just to help me remember and maybe change some bad habits and some unattended areas I can improve. So thank you so much, Dr. Skinner, for all your wisdom today.

Well, thank you. And I, I, I'm still trying to do this myself. I can do better and we can do it better. And when we do it better, it actually helps improve our society.

I love it. I, I think it was John Steinbeck. He said, and now that you don't have to be perfect, you can be good. That's the end of east of Eden. And I think that's good that there's no exact perfect way to be a parent, but there's a million ways to be a good one. My mom always says that. So I think that's what we can take from this. In fact, us trying to be a perfect parent might be the cause of some of our issues, but being a good one for our children might just be what they need.

I love that.

Okay. I hope you have a wonderful day. And to our listeners, we hope that you feel inspired and motivated. And we'll see you next time on Finding Noble. You've been listening to Finding Noble. I'm Carly Red. Follow Finding Noble on all available podcast directories and find out more on our website, findingnoble.com that's finding noblen o b l e dot com and if you or anyone close to you are looking for further resources on young adult and adolescent mental health, Dr. Skinner and a host of other leading professors, professionals working in the mental health world, share courses and even answer your questions, all on parentguidance.org that is parentguidance.org brought to you by the Cook center for Human Connection.