Physical & Sexual Intimacy: Rebuilding Touch, Safety, and Connection (Episode #105)

There's something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh. Something surround.

Welcome to the human intimacy podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Mifless, licensed clinical social worker. Marianne, this week we are celebrating two years of doing this podcast. Every week for two years. This will be the 105th episode and it has been an absolute delight being with you and with other experts and so grateful for our audience, those who are faithfully listening and sharing it with their friends. So I'm incredibly grateful your thoughts on that.

This is amazing. I go back to when I remember you first saying, like, I'm going to start a podcast. I think this would be helpful. And it's amazing to think we're finishing out two years right now and starting into our third year. And it's been such an honor and I'd say I love having this as a resource to tell my clients, hey, check this out here. You know, you and I can talk about it for a couple minutes, but you can listen to us talking, you know, Dr. Skinner and I talking about it or other professionals as well. There's just so much information that we've shared.

Yeah. So I'm just excited. It's been an incredibly rewarding experience over the last couple years. So with that being said, a couple of things. Our upcoming Human Intimacy conference. Marianne, I want to put a shout out to everybody. Last night we had the opportunity, opportunity to meet with the experts who are going to be presenting and I cannot be more thrilled. They were talking about what they were going to be talking about and getting all of us experts excited to answer questions, to prepare the presentations. Really excited about that. So March 13th and 14th, if you have not signed up now that we're in February, you can go to the website Bit ly Human Intimacy and you will get a, you'll go take to the site and if you enter in 30 off, you'll get 30% off. And we would love to have you join us for this incredible conference. Michelle Mays, Dr. Dave Robinson, Dr. Alex Theobald, my good friend Dan Oaks, obviously, Marianne, myself and other leading experts in the field of healing from betrayal and recovery. It's a two day conference, live sessions, live presentations, you get to ask the experts questions. And one of my favorite things, yoga, our common formed yoga specialist, Yoga with low is available and it is incredible. So, so excited to invite our listeners to that as well.

Yeah, it's going to be a phenomenal conference. Just hearing the topics last night when we say, wow, I really hope that people will take advantage of this. And we also want to introduce and announce a new change, something we're excited about. So celebrating our two years of doing this podcast, we've created a human intimacy YouTube channel where our listeners can watch and access and share videos of these podcasts for easy access to them and to go back and listen to them as well. So we're really excited about that. And that's YouTube.com forward/@human-imimacy. So we invite you to check that out. Rise, the Rise podcast, Hope and Healing After Sexual Betrayal. Those podcasts, our season two podcasts are also on there. And are you going to be. Is Reclaim going to be on there?

Yeah, it will be moving there as well.

So we'll have three, three podcasts on the Human Intimacy YouTube channel. Exciting.

Plus additional content that I create periodically that I just want to share with the general public. So we'll be adding additional content besides just the podcast.

Yeah. And I know, Dr. Skinner, that you have a lot of, a lot of our listeners and viewers have, have subscribed to your personal Dr. Skinner YouTube channel. But part of the reason for creating this allows us to add other content from other places.

Right.

That's why we're really excited about that.

Yeah. All right, so today's topic. Absolutely. Excited to share the seventh part of the intimacy triangle. We've talked about six types of intimacy in previous podcasts. Today we're going to be talking about the seventh, which is physical and sexual intimacy. And can I just say, Marianne, that this is the part where it's for many individuals, confusing. They're not sure how to do this part of it. Whether there's been betrayal or not, I believe that the sexual relationship, the physical relationship for many people is a struggle. Your initial thoughts?

Well, I think it'd be great for us to just start out and in recognizing this'll be probably a two part series, possibly more, because there's so much for us to cover here. There's so many different facets of this. And we live in a world where I think, you know, we've been talking about this intimacy pyramid. So it starts with a very large base at the bottom of psychological. And then it goes up and sexual is at the top. Physical touch, sexual is at the top. And I think we live in a world where this whole triangle is flipped upside down. So many relationships start with we go on a date and then we have sex or we go on a date and we. Or we meet and we begin a physical relationship and it bypasses. So it starts with that as A foundation, rather than having the foundation of these. Of, are you there for me? Am I safe? Can we connect emotionally? And so it's been flipped upside down. And so as we're talking today, as we're exploring this, I do want to. Also, I do want to point out in our episode number 22, that was a long time ago, is in June of 2024. So June 10th of 2024, we did a podcast called Exploring Sexuality. Set it. Yeah, exploring sexuality. Navigating the line between healthy and unhealthy behaviors, where we really walked through. Here's what's healthy. Here's some behaviors that are healthy. Here are behaviors that aren't healthy. Because most of the people I talk to, they have no idea what they've learned about sex and relationships. It comes from a movie, it comes from media, it comes from pornography. It doesn't necessarily come from. This is something my family talked about or modeled. If I'm just learning from my environment, it's probably not going to be great. And I. And I want to be really careful and clear as I. As I talked about that top of the. Of the pyramid being flipped upside down. I want to make sure this is not a judgmental or shaming place that we're coming from. I want to point out that that is how we have. Our culture teaches sexuality, that it's first not built on something that's healthy. Yeah.

And I want to lay the foundation for healthy physical intimacy today, because I think in our culture, as you said, we've really highlighted the sexual aspect of it. So I think the unfortunate part of that is that that becomes the focal point rather than the icing on the top of a beautiful relationship. So let me just give a couple of examples about that. Touch. Just every aspect, Marianne, is extremely important for all of us. It starts from birth, and it goes to the time that they put us six feet under. And the reason that we want to emphasize touch first is the experience that they had in Romania with the orphanage. And I don't know how many of our listeners have heard that story, but if you look at the Romanian orphanages at the time, they really were taking the infants into this orphanage, and the only touch they actually had was getting a diaper change once a day. And maybe there was a little bit of food, but they weren't being held or cuddled. And what they discovered that some of those infants were dying from what they called touch deprivation. That deprivation indicates that as humans, we need sensory touch. And I think about the research they did with the elderly who didn't have touch and how that influenced their mental health. And so when we look at both ends of those spectrums, I don't believe the need for touch ever really goes away. And yet, in our culture, if I could take sexuality away from just touch itself, holding hands, a long hug or embrace, I'm able to get the hormones that actually help me feel trust. And that is what we call oxytocin and vasopressin that are released into the system when we have healthy touch. I emphasize healthy touch here.

Yeah. If I'm getting that hug, if I'm getting that one on one contact, I've got my mirror neurons all the whole front of my body, which is. We call them mirror neurons because they're. They're. They're really like my spidey senses. But they're reaching out to you and saying, like, are you safe? Are you in a good place for me to connect with you? And then they come back and say, okay, it's safe. And this is all happening. You know, it's not anything that we're conscious of, but this is our body that's trying to regulate with other people. And so our skin is our biggest organ in our body. And as. As you said, babies, youth, adults, every person across a lifespan needs to have healthy touch. And so this is an area where, for a lot of my clients, a lot of my clients have marriages where they're not having sex, where touch is really incredibly triggering. And so in these spaces, this is where we have to say, okay, if your spouse doesn't feel like they're safe for you to have touch with, then we need to figure out, where can you do that? Do you need to go get a pedicure or a manicure? Do you need to find somebody who's safe and say, can you please give me a hug? Do you need a massage? Where can you get healthy touch? Because it's one of our basic needs. It's a necessity for healthy living.

Yeah. And, Marianne, I want to add to that that some of our listeners can have sensory overload where touch for them, overwhelms them.

Right.

Some individuals, for example, on the autistic spectrum, they are. When it's touched for them, it's overwhelms their autonomic nervous system, and so they don't feel safe with that. So we also have to acknowledge that there are some individuals where touch can be overwhelming. And so if I'm in a relationship where my spouse has a hard time with that kind of touch, I also need to understand their experience. It's a balance here of. I'm going to say most people long for healthy touch. And then there is a certain group of individuals where that for them is like, whoa, that's not me. But the concept of touch is an awareness builder. And let me give a couple examples of what I mean, an awareness builder. What happens when I have touch? What happens to my mind? What happens in my body? What sensations do I have? Do I feel fear? Do I feel excitement? Do I feel arousal? What is it that I feel when I am touching and with whom I'm touching? Like, for example, if you give me an infant in my arms, and this is probably true of almost all humans, you put an infant in our arms and we go, and I'm in heaven. Absolutely in heaven. Because that infant, I don't know what it is, but they're special, extremely special. Put them in my arms. That's a starting point where, like, just imagine that experience. I think most of us will feel like that was a precious experience.

And a lot of times those infants are looking for eye contact. They're looking for regulation. They're looking for interaction. I also want to break this down. For many of my clients, this can be so triggering. So if there has been sexual abuse in the past, touch can be really triggering. It can be really difficult. And if I was okay with it and then something happened in the relationship that triggers some things from the past or opens up some other wounds that can bring that really front and center into my relationship with my spouse or partner. So it can be difficult there. And also for a lot of my clients, and I'm going to make a stereotypical generalization here, and I recognize that, so I'm prefacing that as I do it. But for a lot of my clients, especially who are men, for them, sex or sexual touch equates love. And that's not necessarily what I see with my female partners. If I've learned that the only way that I can express love or that I believe that I can feel loved is through sex, once again, because we flipped that pyramid upside. That's the only way that I feel love. Oftentimes I see there, there's some confusion. Well, if you love me, then we'd be sexual, right? And that's skipping every area that we've talked about in the last several weeks, but that often shows up, and it can be so confusing. Well, if we're not having sex, then how do I feel loved? Or my clients who are struggling with sexual addiction or unwanted sexual behaviors, they are seeking sexual experiences because that's how they feel or believe they're trying to meet that need of feeling loved or wanted. And so if they don't have that, they feel abandoned or rejected.

Rejected, yeah. So, Marianne, I want to go back. Then. As we look at this experience for every individual, the question I would want you to explore or address yourself is this. What do I experience in physical touch? For each individual, it may be a completely separate experience and with whom we're touching. So if it's my spouse and we have been connecting and it's been going well, physical touch is. Is exhilarating. It's wonderful. But if there's been something that's broken the trust, then touch could feel like a threat, uncomfortable discomfort. So if I go back to a book, it didn't start with you by Mark Wolin, he's in. Maybe it's Tibet back. Anyway, he's going around the world, but he's meeting with these mindful gurus. And one of them tells him to go home. And he says, I don't want to. Really want to go home. And the other one, he stands in line all day long. And that guru also says, you need to go home and fix things with your family.

Yeah.

So after doing all this mindfulness training, he goes back, flies back, I think it was Pittsburgh. And it's like his mom comes out to the driveway, and he says, everything inside of me wants to just push her away, push her away. And he said, but I decided I'm mindfully experience this. And so she's embracing him and everything inside of him as he describes, just, he wants to pull away, scream, get out of there. He said, being mindful, I just wanted to be there, and I just wanted to experience what's going on in my body. And I asked my mom just to keep holding me. And he said, everything inside of me, I just wanted to push her away. But I didn't. See, that's the kind of a learning experience of what's going on inside of me. Learning from this, pushing away this, repulse this. And my point here is this. I think we aren't paying attention to what touch is doing to us and what it actually means. So as an example, let's go down that pathway where a lot of people say, hey, if we touch, I think my spouse automatically thinks we're going to be sexual. In some cases, that's probably been the path that they've gone down over and over and over again. It's almost triggering a touch. And yet it doesn't take away the fact That I still want touch. But we've got two people who are experiencing that touch in a very different way. One is I have to protect and defend myself because it always leads to sex, and I don't always want sex. And another partner who's like, well, it's not that I always want sex. I just want a hug. And the confusion that I have seen in so many couples there is navigating that space.

Right. Because it. I'm so glad you used that word, confusion, because it is so confusing to say, you just touched me. What does that mean? What do you want? I have no idea what the meaning of this touch means. And it's really confusing for me to decipher, especially when there's been. And when there have been patterns of every time we touch, it leads to sex. And if we're trying to change patterns and rebuild trust, and there has been that betrayal. If you. If every time you touch me, I think, oh, you want to have sex? And I'm not ready to connect with you on that level or it hasn't felt safe for me to connect. That creates a lot of conflict in the relationship.

So if I was working with a couple like that, I would take sex off the table for a period of time.

Yeah.

And say, let's just practice a start. Let's get at a starting point. Let's just go back to the very basics. Holding hands, maybe a 20 second hug, maybe just sitting by each other and your thighs are touching and you're just by each other. The message in that situation still has to be, what do I feel in this touch? And because if you have experienced betrayal, the betrayed partner may say, even that touch is uncomfortable. We want to learn from that. So if I take sex off the table, I would then say, let's talk about that discomfort, because that's part of the barrier into recreating a form of intimacy again that could be eventually sexual. Just even that conversation in this coupleship, I'm being triggered. Well, help me understand the trigger. Talk with me about what you're experiencing. And then it might come hurt. Anger, frustration of the past behaviors. And now the couple, if they're in a place they can do this, they're gonna have a meaningful conversation.

Marianne, we might need to take all physical touch for a little while off of the table. And because I might not be ready to hold your hand, I might not be ready to hug you if I don't have that. That psychological intimacy there. Are you safe for me? If you don't feel safe for me, it's going to be really hard for me to have you hold me and give me a hug.

It's going to be really. So for clarity, we're talking about individuals who've been working through that. Maybe they've had to do a disclosure. They've been working through many different challenges related to sexual betrayal in this case, and now they're starting to want to integrate. That's really, I think, the group that we're talking to. Because if the other things haven't been in place, and I want to speak to this for a second, that confusion that we talked about earlier, I can't tell you how many times I've had couples come to me where there's been betrayal. They're still being sexual. They're both confused. Are we doing this? Are we not doing this? I have found in my research, and I actually have data on this, that the confusion actually goes up because some people actually become more sexual after betrayal, others become abstinent from it. And sometimes it's both within a very short period of time. So the answer to the question is every case, every couple has a unique approach. And to our listeners, please do not judge yourselves based upon your sexual interaction and how other people are doing it. You take care and understand yourselves well enough to understand what does sexuality mean to us in this relationship. And if one says, I've been pushing myself out of my boundaries and I'm uncomfortable with it, or another says, I've been pushing and I realize that I've hurt and offended you, and if we need to pull back, I'm open to that. That's more mature conversation. Marianne.

There is something that some couples experience called sexual anorexia. And sometimes I'll have clients who, yeah, I've been acting out sexually, but I don't know how to manage this in my relationship. So now I'm just gonna turn the tap off completely. Now we don't have any sex in our relationship or sexual touch, and this can feel like whiplash. So as you're saying, this is complex. Every couple is different. And I would just add, please give yourselves compassion. Please be kind to yourself. This takes time. I often see a pendulum shift where maybe I'm acting this way, and then there's discovery, there's disclosure, and then I swing all the way over to the other end of the spectrum. And usually with time, it takes a minute to kind of come back and find a soft, safe space in the middle. So if I've just been betrayed, I might not want anything sexual at all. And some of my clients they cling onto it. They feel like if my partner's being sexual with me, then they won't be going someplace else. And that's a response, I think, that you were talking about. We see some extremes, and it takes time to heal and to reestablish these other areas of intimacy and to find what feels right. How do we start to talk about this? How do I even sort out for me what makes sense to me? And then to figure out how do we talk about reintegrating sexual touch? And I know that that's a topic that we're going to be talking about in the Human Intimacy Conference. I know there's two different presenters that are going to be talking about that, and I think that that's so essential. A couple of years ago, I was in a training on reintegrating sexual touch after Betrayal. And what I realized is I can't start teaching that to my clients until they know how to talk to each other, until they have communication tools, until they have insight into their own emotions. Like, there are some steps that are involved here. And that's what we've been talking about for the last several weeks.

Right. That is why the intimacy pyramid, the seven types of intimacy. Because right now, if the other types of intimacy are occurring, we're having meaningful conversations, we're sharing deeper emotions, we're intellectually growing together, we're being creative together, we're sharing spiritual intimacy, and we are starting to develop that psychological intimacy of trust and honesty and loyalty and commitment. Then sexual intimacy gets easier. But when those things are not there, sexual intimacy is at best confusing because we're all over the place. Like, are we connecting, not connecting? Or did we share emotions? Can I open up to you? Can. Am I safe? Am I not safe? Marianne, I'm telling you, when those things are working together, the sexual intimacy is dynamite. And that's the way. I mean, people have often said, well, you're not pro sex. I'm like, I'm actually really pro sexy. I want people to have phenomenal sexual experiences and connect on deep ways, because I think that's part of our creation. But I don't want it to be forced, manipulated, controlled, hurtful, painful. I want it to be open, connecting, bonding, unifying. That's ultimately the beauty of what sex can be.

I think we're talking about being pro healthy sex.

Yeah.

And can we talk about oxytocin for just a minute? Oxytocin is a neurochemical in our body which is all about bonding and attachment. When they have measured, where do we have the highest levels of oxytocin. It's found first and foremost when a mother is breastfeeding a baby. And in that scenario, you know, babies can only see 6 to 8 inches away when they're newborns. And the mother's face is right there as the child is so close. And there is the eye contact and there is that. That connection that's happening, that's bonding. And that's the highest level of where we see oxytocin. And then when we've had healthy, attached, connected, deeply intimate, vulnerable, open sex, that's the second area where we find the highest levels of oxytocin. It's not I'm using you just to meet my own need. It's that after sex, we're still connected. We're bonding, we're cuddling. We are just here together having connected in a totally different way.

And so, Marianne, just as you described that that's where we want our listeners to be. And yet at the same time, we sometimes have to go back to the very beginning of the basics. Are we comfortable with holding hands? Are we comfortable with hugs? Are we comfortable with I sometimes I will give assignments to couples like can you give each other a hand massage or a foot massage and just feel that presence, feel that touch. And there's times where I will work with couples, Marianne and I will have them try to talk about an issue where they can't see each other. They're back to back, but they're touching. And just to experience that touch without using the other senses, now you have to feel it based upon touch, not seeing the other person and try to have a meaningful conversation. It is challenging for many couples when I give them that assignment because they're like, I can't read you, I can't see your eyes, I can't see your facial expression, I can hear your tone and listen to the words and I can feel your back to my back. I do that often with couples as we start to reintegrate and learn how to communicate, including the physical communication that's especially in that situation, non threatening.

Right. I want to add into this, we haven't talked about this and this is a. I think there's a component here that we haven't really talked about yet in this intimacy and that's looking into each other's eyes and being seen as you were talking about being back to back. There is so much that happens through allowing our partner to see us that through that eye contact. It is so essential. And oftentimes in my office, when I Have a couple that I'm working with. If I say, hey, I want you to turn and look into your partner's eyes, that can be so terrifying. And sometimes my clients will say, I can't do that. But this is a part, you know, we're talking about intimacy, which is being seen, and that eye contact is so essential. There's so many spinoffs of what you were talking about where whether I'm not using my words, but I'm touching my partner's face or their head, or I'm just looking into my partner's eyes and trying to understand what they, what I see in my partner's eyes. These are exercises that can drive that connection, drive us to a deeper, connected place. And that's usually when we're love making. That is usually when we are so close and seeing and touching in healthy ways and we're being seen. And that is what we're striving for, is that deep, deep connection.

Yeah. So I've got lots of comments on this and this is why we're going to talk about this for a couple of weeks. Because I want to close off the podcast today with a concept of discovering your resistance. My point here is, do I resist healthy touch? Do I resist that type of connection? Do I long for it and am afraid to ask for it? So I'm wondering if we were to invite those who are listening to do a self exploration of touch. How do I feel about it? What am I experiencing? Do I find myself resisting it? If my resistance is coming up, could I give it a voice? Meaning, how would I describe it? What is that resistance inside of me to that? Now? What might come out are expressions of fear, anxiety, meaning interpretation of what I'm feeling, and am I wondering about what you're thinking about? In my research, when I asked the question related to what's happening physically, many individuals said, when my partner wants to be sexual with me, I'm wondering, fearing what they are thinking about. That is a very, very common one after betrayal. And so think about it. We're trying to be sexual, I should say, and my mind's not present. It's wondering what you're thinking, what you're experiencing. Are you fantasizing about something or someone else? That puts me out of that connection because I'm feeling the fear while we're engaging in this process.

Yeah. Can I take that deeper?

Yeah.

Because after betrayal there is such a depth. The betrayed partner usually internalizes some shame. There's usually some internalized shame. A message about I wasn't enough My body wasn't enough, My partner turned elsewhere. And so there's this really deep internalized questioning. And I would say for so many of my clients, there's a wish that I wish my body were this or this or this. And so when we're talking about being naked, letting our partner see us with all of its flaws or stretch marks from having babies or sagging, whatever it is, that is such a deep, deep, vulnerable space. And if I've been struggling with body image, which oftentimes a lot of humans do, that's a pretty universal thing because we live in a world where so much is airbrushed. But if my body isn't perfect, it can be so incredibly difficult for me to connect with my partner. When I know that my body isn't perfect compared to something else that my partner has been with or seen, it's hard for me to be present in that space.

It triggers everything inside of us to feel that feeling of how do I compare? How do I rate? Where do I belong in this, you now that you have shared that with other people or other images or whatever.

Right. Which is our deepest insecurities, that I won't be enough and I won't be accepted. So this is our abandonment and rejection. Insecurities usually get triggered in these spaces.

And then for me, then that's the individual awareness of this is how these experiences have impacted me. And it may not even be betrayal. It could be being bullied as a child where you were told that you were too tall, too small, too short, too whatever, to the point where you conclude there's something wrong with me and my body.

Right.

And that's the individual work that I think individuals have to do. This is what's happening inside of me. That's the awareness that I'm looking for in my clients when I'm working with them. That's the insight that I think is most helpful for them. So let's do a body scan. Notice what you feel, think and experience when you think about being touched in non sexual ways. Non sexual ways. Am I comfortable with it? Or even there? Do I find myself resisting touch? What's going through my mind? So I have that kind of awareness. That's a starting point for physical touch and the barriers to healthy touch.

I, I want to throw out just the concept that there's some research that says that we all need like 10 hugs a day. If we break that down, maybe 10 interactions where we have healthy touch at least 10 times a day, which might seem really, really big for some couples, like Woo. How do I do that? Where do I get that? And so I would encourage our listeners and viewers to see if they can find at least, at least one or two of those healthy touch spaces a day. And sometimes this can come back to maybe I need to be the one even giving myself, you know, a hand massage or a face massage or whatever it is. I might need to give myself some of that healthy touch as well.

Yeah, and that's one of the interesting things. If you've ever seen the butterfly hug, it's just a tap, tap, tap, tap, just with your arm, you know, your left arm on your right shoulder, right arm and just, just being there. Imagine yourself in a calm, relaxing place. Again. What we're trying to do is we're trying to help relax the body. And that's maybe the core concept I'm at today is can I get my body relaxed in others presence? And there is a concept to. Dr. David Snarch, sex therapist, talks about hugging for comfort. And it's not actually comforting the other person, it's actually self. And so you're hugging somebody, but you're paying so much attention to your own body that the other person is present, but you're figuring out what am I experiencing in this hug. So it's not a sexual hug. You might find yourself feeling physically aroused, you might find yourself feeling something, but there's no sexual intent here. It's just observing what happens to me in this touch. It's a powerful exercise, just learning what this touch means and what I'm feeling and what I'm experiencing. That's where if two people were working, trying to reintegrate, that's a beautiful starting point. That's a conversation I found I was feeling this or I was experiencing this. And it doesn't have to be threatening to their spouse. It's awareness building. And that's ultimately what I think is a great starting point for many individuals and couples.

So Dr. Skinner, as we wrap up a topic that we haven't talked about, but I think that is really important with this and that's consent. And you know, we've been talking about triggers with sexual touch and we've been talking about that sometimes we're not in places where we are ready for it. And so as you've been talking about that butterfly hug, but in episode 65 of our podcast, so from May of 2025, we have a podcast called Consent Communication and the Core of Intimacy where we talk about consenting touch. And I think that's a really important aspect that we want to make sure that we're highlighting here. This is a time after betrayal. This is a time of healing. This is a time of figuring out what are my insecurities as you've been talking about, what am I comfortable with? What. What does this mean to me? And so also acknowledging that it's important to have consent in these spaces. And if I been building on this emotional and verbal intimacy that I can share with my partner, this would be a place where to be able to say, hey, is it okay for you if I touch you here? Or being able to say, I'm not quite ready for. For this touch, but here's. Here's maybe something else that could be helpful. I think this is important. We want to make sure that we're adding this to our conversation.

Yeah. Thank you. The. The part that you just described there, I want to close with this. You know, both partners in a relationship are going to have different touch needs. Rarely are we all on the same page at the same time. If you have children around, you might be being touched all the time, all day long. And now your spouse or partner comes home and it's like you. And you want touch too, right? And so we can have these differences and these need differences. And so we need to understand each other and how to communicate. There is nothing wrong with wanting touch. The challenge of it is when it overwhelms one or the other because it's the expectation or it's going to lead to sex. Or again, it's clarification. Let's slow this process down, give meaning to it, give language to it, and in healthy relationships, make sure that we're understanding how to meet each other in the space that we're at for our needs for touch. And that's really a journey of an exploration. And notice we're talking about touch. We're not even talking about sex yet. We're just talking about healthy touch.

Right? This is something to celebrate. What we get to celebrate as human beings is being able to touch and be seen and be felt. And at the end of everything, our relationships are what matter. This is an important part of our relationships. To be able to learn how to create safety and to learn how to communicate so that we can have these deeper levels of intimacy that we, as human beings and as couples and partners are all searching for. That's what we're all looking for, is, can you see me? Can you hear me? Am I accepted? Am I loved? Are you there for me? And can I be fully vulnerable here with you and let you see all of me. That's beautiful.

And for some people, that's a very dangerous place or a scary place because that they're scared because of life experiences. And ultimately, that's what we're striving for, is to get to a place where the answer to those questions is yes, I want to be that and yes, I want to receive that to our listeners. You we appreciate you. We genuinely do. Thank you for your time. We appreciate you sharing this podcast with friends or others that you think would benefit, and we again invite you to participate with us in the 2nd Annual Human Intimacy Conference, March 13th and 14th of 2026. Use the coupon code 30 off at Bit Ly Human Intimacy. Marianne, thank you so much for your time and to our listeners. You have a good, fantastic, outstanding, marvelous, extraordinarily great week, if you choose.

Awesome. Thanks.