Play Your Way to More Intimate Relationships (Episode #13)

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Something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh something surround you.

Welcome to the Human intimacy podcast. I'm Dr. Kevin Skinner with my friend and co host, Amy Andrus. Amy, how are you today?

I am excited with our topic we're going to be covering, so if you could introduce that.

I. Before I start, I want to say that we've talked about some very heavy subjects. We've talked about shame. We've talked about couples communication that struggles and how we aren't open with each other. Today, we're absolutely shifting gears and the reason why is I want to have some fun. So to our listeners, are you ready to have a little bit of fun with us as we talk about play? What are you laughing at?

I'm laughing because I think you're right. The, the, the territory you've been covering is so heavy. And I'm thinking from a listener's perspective, hearing, are you ready to have some fun? It's like, yes, please.

You know, and I often say that when I work with couples, I'm like, are you ready to have some fun? And they give me this look like, what in the world are you even talking about? And I say, well, let's just put it in perspective. Where you've been, what you've been doing, if you want to call that fun, then we really could enhance where you've been. Because many times we see couples in the darkest places. So I often hear people say, we just feel like we're business partners. Yeah, we love each other, but we're just going through the tasks, the menial stuff. And in our relationships, I'm afraid that we've lost this playfulness that really is a significant part of our human intimacy and our experience in our relationships.

Well, I, I have to comment for the listeners. Throughout 11 years, almost, I guess we've been doing this work together. Couples will come in and they are just so nervous and in so much pain. And really, Dr. Skinner does start every intensive with, are you guys ready to have some fun? And the looks on their faces is like fun. We haven't, we don't even know what that is anymore. Right, right.

I had a couple come into my office to do an intensive just a couple weeks ago. And my couch is big, long, I should say. And one's on the other one side and the other's as far away as they can from the other. And I, I mean, you just know that there hasn't been play, there hasn't been fun. They don't feel safe with each other, they don't trust each other. And that was on Wednesday. And by the time we get to Friday, I'm doing this incredibly powerful eye connection exercise. And all of a sudden you see the lights coming back on and the fun that can come back into these relationships that have felt boring, that it felt alone where people felt alone. We don't have to live there. We want to learn to play. And not even just in our marital relationships. But I want to talk about playing with our children.

Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

You know, and then let me speak about the children part for just a second. I think far too often we focus on tasks, right? We're trying to get homework done, we're trying to get them to activities. We're running them here, running them there. And it's a task based world. But when are we actually slowing down to play with each other?

Well, I want to ask you, when we talk about play, what do we even mean by play?

Yeah, well, that's just it. Pick your definition, Pick what it, what you want it to be. So just let me give you an example. Last evening, my second daughter, she has two children, she came over and she bought me a game for Christmas. And we haven't had a chance to play it yet because we've been busy with different things. She said, let's play this. And we started. Oh my gosh, we started playing and all of a sudden the room lightened up and there was laughter and there was, are you kidding me? And it was just so much fun. Like, this is it.

And what I love about that, it was spontaneous, right?

That's right. Yeah.

And so I think too often we think of, okay, we need to play, and then it needs to be structured and Planned. And that can take the fun out of it. Where it's. My favorite definition of play is Dr. Stuart Brown, you're familiar, where it's just time spent without purpose. You were there. It wasn't. The purpose wasn't. Okay, we're going to get together, we're going to structure this play. It just happened spontaneously, which made it even more fun, in my opinion.

Well, and interestingly enough, when we can do things spontaneously, we allow ourselves to let the guard down. When we work with couples, far too often, we see them in a state where they haven't played for so long, they haven't interacted with each other in, I don't know, teasing would be one way or a playful gesture, just a simple thing. They stop playing.

Right. And they all did in courtship. When you go back through the story, play is such a huge part of that connection piece. We all play while we're dating, right.

And. And I go back to my childhood and I think about times. It's even with my parents, it's my mom pitching me a baseball or my dad taking me on a snowmobiling trip. And yeah, those may be trips and they may be, but I look at those and I was like, those are playful experiences where we had this experience just to go out and experience these things.

Right.

And even then, as simple as going on a bike ride and the conversations, now that's again, time together. But we're playing together, we're having fun, we're chasing each other, right?

And. And that is such a huge piece of individual happiness is we lose sight of that playfulness within us and there's so much joy when we can slow down and. Because those. What. What's the purpose of life and relationships if we don't spend time engaging in. In play, Right.

And so what? That's a good question. So what are we doing? We're living in a world of stress. We're living in a world of conflict. We're living in this world where we no longer feel safe with others. And. And because of some of the dynamics in our own relationships, sometimes we don't feel safe with each other.

Right.

But when I see the healing process occur or when I see people really working on a relationship, there are. They are playing, Right. And so if I go back to the definition of fun, let's just go through 10 or 15 things. What's fun? Playing a game, playing a video game, going on a walk, teasing each other, tickling. I'll never forget one of my favorite stories with my children at this point. I Think we had four of our eight and it was a sock game and it was to see who could get dad's socks off first or could dad get their socks off first. So it was on the bed. You can't leave the bed, but you have to stay. The last person with both socks on wins or at least one sock on. And so we played this game. It's one of those stories that we just tell, remember when.

Right, right. And I'm quite certain it wasn't scheduled or that you read somewhere that that was a really fun game to play. It happened, you know, just out of the course of being with each other.

With, and we're having this fun. And now I think about other experiences. Taking my children to play softball in the backfield, something that I experienced as a child. And then coaching them, coaching their sporting teams and encouraging them. And we played. And I'll never forget, this is just what I do when we would get to a gymnasium where they were going to be playing basketball or playing tennis and I would, if I was dropping them off and I'd say, go have fun.

Right. I just said that to my daughter on Saturday. Why are we here? To have fun. You know, she was at a volleyball tournament to have fun. And we can lose sight of that. Like you're saying, between the scheduling and just the stresses of, of today's world, we lose sight of the purpose, you.

Know, And I want to go a little bit deeper here for a second. Right. So play is a form of non verbal communication. When we're talking about healthy, intimate relationships. When we are playing, what are we not doing, we're not fighting, we're not arguing, we are having or creating a memory with each other that in many instances it's when we look back on time and we say, do you remember when?

Right.

I remember attending, I've attended a lot of funerals in my life. And it's always interesting what people say during a funeral.

Right.

Because those are the memories that come up. And it's often dad did this, mom did this. And they were actually playful. I, I, one of my favorites was mom was a teaser. And so she would, she would tease things in just little ways, little food things that she would tease the kids with. And that's what the kids remembered from the funeral.

And I think we, I love that because I think we, we imagine this being more complicated than it really is. You know, like one of the things might in my home, we make a game of everything. Meaning, you know, we walk out of the gas station together, we, we Drink a lot of soda, you know that. But that's part of the play. We walk out and we're like, okay, there's a garbage can who can make their cup in the. You know, we just play without it being such a structured, formal just. It just happens, those memories, like the socks.

Yeah. And what it end in, what it ends up doing at the end of the day is it boosts our intimacy.

Yeah.

And again, I want to redefine it. Intimacy not being sex, it's actually intimacy is this connection where I'm letting others into. See me, playful me. The, the one that they often say, you're actually fun dad.

Right, right.

And when that happens, we're doing something just this other last week, my wife and I, and she in particular was talking with my son about this. Can we be device free for a day? One day a week after school? And so he's trying to figure out what to do. He's been playing basketball at pe and so he said, dad, I'm gonna go out and shoot. I'm like, I'm gonna go out and shoot with you. So I'm out there working with him and we're just playing and, you know, he said, let's do this and can you show me how to do this? And so we're going back and forth and it's one of those times where afterwards he goes to my wife and says, that was so much fun, mom fun. And I'm looking at the word right?

And I just want, I. I want to say the time is. It doesn't need to be quantifiable. It. We don't have to make it this really big thing. I had a, a client last week. She said, ah, she was feeling so much mom shame. She said, I just feel so guilty. I just had so much going on. I haven't, I haven't played with my kids. I said, okay, well, tell me a little bit about, you know, what's been going on. She said, well, you know, I was taking my daughter, you know, she's taking her daughter to soccer. And she said, but we stopped at Starbucks, we got cake pops and we listened to Taylor Swift. And I said, okay, hold on. What?

Yeah, it's exactly it, right?

Hey. And she was feeling so much shame that there hadn't been this big thing where she's doing it. They're going through Starbucks and listening to Taylor Swift and getting a cake pop. But I think we make it. It has to be so, so big and quantifiable.

It's a simple moment. It's It's a simple moment. And that's what's interesting there. Healthy touch produces oxytocin and vasopressin. That's something that I learned a long time ago. Healthy touch and the oxytocin and vasopressin is a, is a trust hormone. And so I'm like, okay, I know for a fact that my teenage daughters, they need healthy touch.

Right.

So, so how do I do that in a playful way?

Right.

So many times coaching basketball, I'd say, okay, it's box out time. And they would try boxing me out and I'd try boxing them. Oh, my goodness. It's those, those experiences where it's healthy touch and they're pushing dad around and it's fun. And, and what's interesting there, it's not hours.

No, it's.

It's a few minutes. It's a second. It's a few seconds. In some situations where there, it's a playful experience with a parent. That's the beauty of this process. When we learn to play it spontaneous, as you started with, it's also something that doesn't have a set regimens. You know, it has to be this, and it has to be this. It's just whatever you want to do. It's a healthy, fun, playful experience.

You know, that mother, she was feeling so much shame. I haven't been playing with my kids and I'm imagining her in the car listening Taylor Swift. I'm sure they're dancing and they're moving and they're having that memory in between the chaos and soccer. And that's all just those, those connection, those connective moments.

Yeah. And so we talk about the benefits. But I'm going to put it in another way for a second. When couples play together, when parents play with their children, it's like putting money into the bank.

Right.

Because when things get difficult, which they often do in parent child relationships and in our marriages, when we play together, we. It's like putting money into the bank. It's a deposit. And when things get difficult, it's a withdrawal. And if you're not playing and everything feels hard, you're not communicating well, then your, your bank account feels empty and.

It kind of is. Right. I have, I have a couple where, you know, teaching them they're going on a trip and I getting. Setting them up for the trip. I said, all right, I want you guys, I have this container here in my office and you're going to shelve every difficult conversation. They're all here waiting for you. When you get back, they're all here. Go play and remember they're here waiting for you. But take time to you're on the beach and play in the sand and be together knowing they're all these difficult conversations or we're not avoiding them, they're.

Here and what you did is you gave them permission to experience a different emotion. Right. Again, these emotions of frustration and tension and conflict. And you know, obviously we need to feel safe enough with each other and I think that that's the transition, right? We don't feel safe with each other. So we stop that facial expression, that's a smile or a wink. We stop using terms of endure, endearment, playful ones.

Playful.

The playful ones because of the conflict and the tension. And so if we were to going to bridge the gap there, I'd say if you need to deal with something that's unresolved, deal with it, work through it. And then as you work through that, learn to play again, tease, have fun, healthy touch. Because as human beings it's that tone of voice, it's a little playful. It's, it's those terms of endearment that can be endearing and also like, oh, did you really just say that?

You're right. But it has to feel, it has to feel safe and even plays vulnerable. And it can feel very vulnerable when you have a 14 year old who maybe is angry and checked out and you feel like, okay, I don't know what to do with that. They still want to play and it's filled, can feel vulnerable as a mom, to say, hey, let's go for a walk.

Really?

No, I don't want to, you know, just. It is vulnerable, right?

It is vulnerable because our fear is that it won't be reciprocated. That means that we have to be attuned enough to the person to recognize, oh, they're playing that. What does that play? It's actually what John Gottman would call is a bid attempt for connection. If I'm being playful with you, I'm inviting you into this place where I want to have fun. And that's again, if we're going to cross over that bridge to human connection and intimacy, we have to recognize, oh, they're wanting to play with me.

Right.

That kind of communication is very deep and meaningful because we often, we often anticipate, oh, what, you mean you want to have sex?

Isn't it funny people use the word intimacy? I don't think about sexual intimacy. They, they'll say, you know, being, experiencing intimacy. And I'll Say, okay, what. Help me understand what. What type of intimacy are you referring to?

Right.

Sexual intimacy is intimacy. No, that's.

That's an icing on the cake because.

You talk a lot about recreational intimacy, right. As being such a huge part of relationships.

Right. And so when we look at that, that playing in those activities and those time together, what we're in essence saying is, is intimacy is letting others see into us in unique ways. It's not if we just put it in the physical. We're really limiting what intimacy means because I can have a very meaningful conversation with you, a playful conversation with you where we're going back and forth, we're teasing, we're playing. And what it does is it creates a bond that's unique. So think about it to our listeners.

What.

How often are you playing with your children and with your partner?

And no shame here, you know, like the mom. I don't play. You just did.

You know, but that's just it. They miss it. Going to the store or getting a drink and listening to Taylor Swift.

Right.

Again, those are the memories. It's time. And sometimes we think that it has to be this unique thing. It's not. You're building positive memories by doing simple things. You pull out the board game. You pull out, you know, the. What do they call those little things? The jump rope. Right?

Oh, right. Jump rope. You know, I love to jump rope.

I didn't know that, but now I do.

So we. Some of the barriers, you know, you mentioned some of the barriers to play time and schedule and stress and things that get in the way.

But if we are not going to take the time, then we're going to. We're like robots. We're structured. We're so focused on the things that we're trying to get done that we don't take the time.

So one of the things you. I've heard you say, I can't even count how many times. Okay, slow it down, Slow it down. How would you say we slow down and just seize those moments?

For me, it's really. If I'm going to take time with my children, it might be actually right after dinner. It might be actually during dinner. Because what we're doing is we're creating in the change process. I created a course on human intimacy called Change 2.0. And one of the concepts was what I call habit stepping. And it's not for me. It's a book called Habit Stacking, where you take a habit, habit, something that you're already doing together, and you add to It a new habit that goes with it. So if I'm brushing my teeth, it could be pulling out floss. That's habit stacking. So I floss. I brush teeth and floss, or floss and brush teeth around the dinner table. It's yes, we're eating together, but now we're going to add, hey, what was the best memory of your week? So now we're right now we're adding to it in specific moments.

Yes, you did teach me that when I said, how. How have you read all these books? And I don't remember even how many book. How have you done this with all your 10,000 steps and your eight children? And I remember you say, saying, I'm very boundaried and I have it stack. I do these things together because.

Because what it leads to is outcomes that we're looking for. And it's not. It's not so rigid. It's fun. And so it's not uncommon. If you were to come to my house on a Sunday evening where we would be playing some kind of a game, our daughters who come with their husbands, we're playing some kind of a game. And it's interesting to me the energy that it creates.

Right.

But what's interesting, Let me just go through another couple examples. During COVID one of our favorite things to do was in a city called Springville, which is close to here. There it was, the Art City Days Fun Run, and they canceled it because of COVID And we're like, oh, my goodness, that doesn't work. So one of my daughters created a T shirt. It's the Skinner Family Fun Run. And we ran the same course that's ran every year. And, and, and again, we're creating these experiences and these memories during a very difficult, emotionally stressful time as a culture. Right. But that's what we're doing.

Right. So how do we make play just a core value?

I think we have to learn to play again. I mean, as adults, we've got to become more childlike and we've got to put off of these tasks and these things. When's the last time you sat down and played a game, Chutes and Ladders with your child? Or when's the last time that we did something that our children are like, thank you so much. That was fun, right? You want to lighten the load. You want to lighten the stress in your home? You want to create an environment where your children are going to talk about these memories at your funeral, Right? My funeral. I hope that my children say, dad went out and park and played ball with us, or dad coached me, or we. The game nights were so much fun.

And, you know, one of. It's a legacy that my. My parents have given to us children. They make everything fun out of just nothing. But everything is fun. The smallest. I mean, my mom especially makes everything magical and fun, and.

And it just feels that way, right? It's just magical and it's fun.

So I know you have ideas. I have a couple, in fact, a couple I was just working with. I said, all right, I want. Every time you pass a swing set, I want you guys to pull over, get out and swing, Just be kids and play, right?

And then you start getting into little inside jokes that we have together, these little things that we do, the pranks that we may do with each other. And you didn't. You really didn't do that. You know, I did do that. Right. It's just one of those things where we learn to be, I don't know, relaxed, maybe that's the right word. But we're not always so uptight. Our culture has taught us to be so uptight. If we want to combat anxiety and if we want to combat the depression and the stressors of life, we have to learn to be childlike and play again.

And I have to say, the moments, what I loved when my children were little and being able to then reacquaint with my little child self, playing in the dirt with them and doing all these things that we kind of think we grow out of, but they're all still there. And being able to learn how to play again through the eyes of especially.

Our children, that's magic, all of those things, right? It's just those moments, those specific experiences you're describing. And again, they're going to happen spontaneously, if you will allow them to occur. Bring out that inner child within you, right? That one that used to sing and dance spontaneously and.

And it's also recognizing, you know, as motherhood if we're so stressed out by little boys in the dirt. Because I. I did. I got stressed out with that, too, when we. Especially when we were trying to get to church. You know, like, those moments were the moments where playing in the dirt was really fun, but really identifying when was what your inner child, where did. Where did she go? Because you knew that at one time you knew how to play and where. What happened to her and how can you reacquaint with yourself with her?

I love that. I love that so much because we're now reevaluating. I used to Play.

Right.

I used to sing and dance and whatever we. Yes, we did. And, and that's just it. Now we look at the benefits, the research. When we laugh, they have found that individuals with chronic cancer, they're going to die. Those who laughed lived longer.

Right.

Than those who didn't. There's something about laughter. It releases some tension. It helps us. So my invitation to our listeners. Don't forget.

Right.

To play.

Right. I never know if that's. If you're teeing up. All right. That's a good place to end.

No, I know if I'm going to. No. Is there anything else that you would like to talk about today?

Well, just, just kind of piggybacking on what you just said. I was listening to, you know, John Gottman just. And he was saying, all right. We focus so much on extending our health with exercise and supplements. But play will extend your life 10 to 15 years. That laughter, that play are happy. Our positive relationships that we have and like you said, then leave a legacy. How do we want to be remembered?

I love that. And there's plenty of research that shows when we're positive, we're optimistic, we do live longer. Lots of research to support that. And so really, if we want to have a quality of life where true human intimacy is occurring, I can't imagine it without play.

So our invitation is. I. I have a. A remembering. When was the last time I really was playful and again identifying what happened to her. I used to know that. But then also action items. Right. Now, what would you say? Just taking small moments. You're looking at a chaotic week. How can I take one moment, one Taylor Swift song, just a small. How can I. How can I create that and set that intention with my children, with my relationships that are most dear to me, you know?

And I think what for me personally, it is that self reflection followed up by action.

Right.

When's the last time you played with your partner? You did something that was. Even if it's a. We went out and we recreated our first date.

Right.

Right. And. And. And we went on a hike and in the middle of the hike, we brought out the football and we were playing catch or we intentionally. Bigger. We planned a trip, a family trip to the beach where we brought our kite and we brought the soccer balls and the footballs and we played in the ocean. And yeah, those are a little bit more intentional.

But I even, I even love when we watch couples, even just remembering those moments because they're all there. They are. And so when, when we're walking through with couples. Tell us about your courtship. Just remembering, right, those playful times.

Because again, when we talk with couples, we that are fighting and in conflict, they have forgotten that part of intimacy. They've forgotten, as my friend Dave Robinson says, they've rewritten their history.

Right.

And I don't remember those times, but when we remember those times, it was that, oh my gosh, you used to call me that name or we used to play that way or we teased that way. And now if I tease you that way because of issues, it's changed. When couples heal, when couples reconnect, they create new playful experiences. Novelty is good for us in our relationships.

That's right. My just kind of final thought, my very dear friends, and they are both life coaches, wrote a book and it's a really beautiful book and it's about dating on purpose. And in the book they have, they have all of these different categories of dates and it's wellness and its activities and, and then they reflect and they rate it and they talk about it and just the novelty, right. Where it's let's do something we haven't done and experiences together.

Tell me the name of that book. We'll, we'll put it on the show notes.

It is fantastic. It's, they have a journal, they have different categories, they rate it. They talk about what was your favorite part of the date. So, and with your kids, where it's, you know, one of their dates that was 10 out of 10. They, they bought a bonsai tree together.

So do you have the name of the authors of that book?

Jesse and Trish Allen. My dear friends, Jesse and Trish Allen. The book is Dating on Purpose.

Awesome. So I'm going to put that in the show notes for our listeners. One of the things that I want to also emphasize here is if we're not playing, what are we doing right? And we need, we need to be intentional about how to be happy today. We need to literally learn how to be what we aren't being.

Right. Because you're mentioning those funerals. We don't say, ah, I just wish I would have worked so much harder. And I wish. Right.

Well, that's from the book Five Regrets from those, those, the dying, right. Where they talked about what, you know, what they regret. Well, it wasn't that, you know, it was that they didn't spend enough time with their family that they didn't really live life the way they wanted to live it. And so if again, I'm just invite you find joy, find passion, find purpose in your relationships. That matter the most. And I'll tell you what, when you do it, life is so much more enjoyable.

That's the whole purpose, right?

Absolutely. All right, my final thought today is if we're not making and creating love, and I don't mean sex, I mean if we're not making and creating it, then what in the world are we doing? It's time for us to find joy. It's find time for us to live this passionate life with each other in meaningful ways where we create, put money in the bank. So when things are difficult, we say, we're going to be okay. We can still play. We can still learn to get through this. We can do hard things.

I love that so much. Thank you for again, a great conversation.

It's always delightful. Thank you very much to our listeners. Thank you for listening to the Human Intimacy Podcast. Please share it with your friends, share with your family members, share with your dog, your cat, whoever you want to, but please share it. And if you have questions that you would like Amy and I to address, please do so@questionshumanintimacy.com Amy, you have a great week. You as well. Bye bye.

Bye bye. Something surrounds you?

It's like you're shining, you're silent.