Preparing for the Holidays: Connection, Self-Care, and Healthy Boundaries (Podcast #40)

Something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh.

Welcome to the Human intimacy podcast. I'm Dr. Kevin Skinner with my friend and colleague Marianne Michaelis. Marianne, as I often say, how are you? Except for I'm going to change that question. Are you ready for the holidays?

Dr. Skinner? It's so good to be here. And I am excited about the holidays, but what I'm most excited for is one of my children's been out of the country for several months and they're coming home the night before Thanksgiving. One of my friends who doesn't have a lot of family support is coming to spend some time with us for Thanksgiving. And so what I'm excited about is the relationships, about connecting and catching up and slowing down and, and making time to be with family. And as we're talking about human intimacy here, I think this just is such a good place to start. As we're looking at our theme and our topic today, which is preparing for the holidays.

You know, and when we talk about preparing for the holidays, both, I want to make sure we emphasize this. It's not just about, you know, getting gifts or preparing for Thanksgiving for family coming over. It's realistically the mental health, the relationships, and how to approach relationships. I find that so many times people are so anxious about getting together with family that they begin to cope in unhealthy ways because they're actually overwhelmed with, with aunt. So, so, or. Or moms coming over or dads coming over. And, and there's usually fights or conflict with siblings or there's just stories there that overwhelm people. And so I think it's a starting point of, yes, we think about the holidays, but to our listeners, when you think about the holidays, does it bring excitement and hope and joy, or is it, oh, I hope we can just endure this one?

And I think it's like that for a lot of people. I know that. I think there's two parts of this that I, that I know we want to address today. One part is oftentimes when I'm working with betrayed clients, oftentimes betrayal happens during holidays, during anniversaries, during times when we're not on our regular schedules, or that's when the betrayals are discovered. And so I know that with my clients, holiday, like, thinking about, oh, the holidays are coming up, it can be really triggering, really, really hard time because one, my family might not know what's going on. And so I have to show up or I might feel like I have to show up and pretend like everything's fine and it's not fine. And so I'm trying to hold it together. Or two, I. Yeah, I'm just trying to function and just get through the holidays because my whole world's crumbling right now, and I'm just trying to go through the motions so I know that can be really hard. Or this happened last year, or it happened two years ago. And so I'm already bracing, my body's already ready, and it's remembering the trauma of this season. And so no, sorry.

And just what you're saying, that you're the anticipatory. That's what I hear you describing is this anticipatory stress. Last year this happened. Or two years ago this happened. And this year, family. This. Certain family members coming over. And again, we begin to think about the relationship dynamics of the holidays and just the stress of that, let alone the preparations, making sure you've got everything done. And amidst all of that, we know that when we're this most stress, when we experience the most stress, that's when we turn to unhealthy coping mechanisms.

And then we create more chaos in our lives. And so what you're talking about is a cycle that can just start to roll. And so I think one other part of this cycle that we're describing is when we go back into our family of origin, we step back into our roles. And so if I'm the oldest child, I might feel like I'm. I'm the organizer or we fall back into roles and, you know, normally we're doing great, living our own life. And then we come back and everybody's together and we're trying to figure out how to. To align ourselves and whose roles, who's taking what role, and. And boy, it sure, it can sure cause a lot of conflict and struggle.

Yeah. And so now you're talking about the dynamics of past family patterns, which we could. We could spend a whole lot of time just understanding the family d. Your own family dynamics. And then again, adding to that is our own coping mechanisms, how we cope well or don't cope well. So we begin to see during the holiday season, we see an increase in anxiety, an increase in these stress that we feel inside of our own bodies. And again, turning then to the coping mechanisms, before we started the podcast, you and I were talking about how we eat during the holidays. And I think that that too, is a huge component that I hope to address today, because during the holidays, I'll just get an intro into this. A few years ago, I was talking with a nutritionist, and he said what most people don't realize is people actually, we get more sickness illnesses during the winter season. He said many times we think it's because we're not getting enough D3, which he said is true. But he said more illness is actually coming from the food we're eating than anything else. And I was pretty shocked by that statement. But he said, as a nutritionist, he said if we ate healthier foods during the holidays and during the winter, we would actually have less illness because our bodies would be able to resist the. The illnesses that come.

And that makes so much sense when you think about, at least in our US Culture, you've got Thanksgiving and then you've got holiday parties. Holiday parties, holiday parties. And then Christmas and then New Year's. We've got. What is that, six weeks, eight weeks of pretty unhealthy eating and diets.

Yeah. If we took the sugar intake alone. Right. If you just took the sugar intake from Thanksgiving through New Year's during that stretch of five, six weeks, the sugar intake in probably in most humans that are here in the States. I mean, it has to be astronomical.

Yeah. I was reading an article earlier today, it's by Scott Anderson, and he's talking about inflammation. He says that our brain responds to inflammation with anxiety to get us agitated or depression to keep us in bed. And he talks about how this actually really does come from our foods. He talks about how microbes that help us digest our food, if we don't have the right foods in our body, we don't have the right microbes. And so the germs or the pathogens or whatever are able to get through where they normally wouldn't. And that is why we get sick. And we don't think very often about how much food affects or impacts our mental health, but it does tremendously. And we're heading into a season where just looking at that and saying, hold on a second. What's going to be most healthy for me during this period of time? Is there anything that I need to tweak or change so I can prepare.

For this, you know, And. And that brings up another concept. So Roy Baumeister, one of. He's an author, wrote a book that is related to our willpower. And as he talks about the concept of willpower, he says he uses a term called ego depletion. When your energy is depleted, he says, we're more likely to turn to unhealthy habits, unhealthy behaviors, or unhealthy actions. So if you think about the stress of the holidays, all the preparation and everything that we're trying to do, and then you think about how we cope, we're more likely to turn to unhealthy actions or behavior. So people turn more to drinking or they turn more to eating foods that they cope in, whatever their strat previously established patterns are. And so the willpower when your energy is depleted, he says the coping mechanisms across the board come back to previous habits. And I think about during the holidays where you said earlier about being out of routine and when we're out of routine, that's when bad things can happen to us. That's when we can engage in unhealthy behaviors because we're not in the normal routine of life.

Yeah. It's usually stress and being out of routine that are the predictors for relapse. If we're looking at addiction, I'd like to share just one more concept that comes from this, this article I was reading from Scott Anderson. I'm going to share it. I'm going to read it because I think it's so important. He says studies demonstrate a significant association between junk food and depression. Then he says when depressed subjects were switched to a diet high in fiber, their risk of Depression fell by 30%. 30% is really significant. And then he says that is as good as or better than the standard psychiatric rate with medication. So if we take out junk food, it's the equivalent of an antidepressant. That's huge.

Especially during the holidays.

Especially. And I think that's a really important segue into the other part of the holidays where we have more loneliness, we have more depression, we have more like the Hallmark effect where the, we see Pinterest and Hallmark and things are supposed.

To be, you know, the, the romance effect.

Yes. And my life's not like that. And so we see more suicides, we.

See increased depression, increased loneliness, we see all of the common mental health challenges increase because we are in many situations not living in this romantic world that is that it really has portrayed to be. And, and, and I think there's two parts to that. One is our own awareness that. That we may be at risk for that and making sure that we do our part to reach out. And, and there are ways that we can work through that, like finding people to connect to. I've got a story associated with that. I'll share that in a minute. But the other part of it is recognizing who's in need. And because if we want to combat our own loneliness, our own depression Our own anxiety, reaching out and befriending and connecting with someone and, and serving them and finding a way to. It's a really powerful way to combat loneliness and depression.

As I'm hearing you say that, what just popped into my mind was, you know, social media is such a depressant. It creates more anxiety, it creates more depression. And look, thinking about sitting in your house or on your phone, looking through, scrolling endlessly through social media versus putting down your phone and going out and shoveling your neighbor's walk, going out and you know, in Florida or other places, you might not be shoveling your neighbor's walk, but going out and engaging and serving somebody. You think about like the energy depletion or the energy gains that come from that. And one's a sucking in like it's, it is that depletion. The other one just fills us up so much. And so as we're struggling, if we are struggling through the holidays or whenever, recognizing there are a few things we can do. And oftentimes it's getting up and finding some way to connect or to serve. And if we look around for just a minute, we can usually find it.

So, so part of the solution during this time is to, to reach out to explore other outside relationships or people that, that you can connect with that are healthy for you. I remember a year ago, more than a year ago, I was in a situation where it was during the holiday season and I was just thinking about this person in need. He was a single person. And so as a family, we decided that we're going to try to do 12 Days of Christmas with this person. And so we bought 12 random gifts. And I mean, they were not, they were basic, right? A pair of socks, right. And, and yet the joy of every night leading up to Christmas going, and the family, we rotated turns, going up the driveway, ringing the doorbell, running away, driving away before, right. And, and, and just the experience and then the last day going, caroling and to his home. And it is just a delightful experience. But after that, him saying, you know, the most enjoyable thing you guys did for me, I actually still wear those socks and I love them. But here's a person who's, who's single, whose family, you know, doesn't have as much interaction with him as he would like. And, and I just, to me, those are the types of experiences of family that I hope I'm trying to send the message of. It's not, it's get out and serve, get out and lift someone else up. And the world can be a Better.

Can I add on to that, Dr. Skinner? Yeah, let me just deepen that just a little bit. Several years ago, we did something similar at 12 Days of Christmas. And we chose a family that had just recently moved into our area that had some younger kids. We didn't know anything about them, but we just felt like, yeah, they're the ones. We, and our daughter actually was the one that was really pushing us to do this. Okay, we'll do it. And the part that I think is fascinating, we never told them who we were. They left like a little, some pictures that their little three year olds had drawn for us and said thank you. And they said, we, we didn't look at our doorbell. We could have, but we, we didn't because we wanted to keep it a surprise. But every single time I see that family, I think about that I am connected to them. Even though they have no idea that that was us. Every time I see them, I think about that and I have like this love for them. And what I found out later on is during that time, the, the father in that family, his dad was dying. His dad had just died right then. We didn't know that when we were doing that, but like, that even makes it a little bit more special.

But having somebody show that they care who, you don't even know they are, they're thinking about you and in, in their own quiet way that you matter. Right. And, and again, these are, these are opportunities, right?

Yeah. And I, I, I don't know if this word exists, but maybe I want to create it right here. Sometimes we talk about trauma bonding, and I don't know if there's an opposite of that, but it's, it's love bonding. And that's probably not the right word, but the concept is we can bond to people in really hard times, like through trauma, or we can service bond. Maybe that's a better word for it. Do you have a word for that?

Care bonding.

Care bonding.

Right. This caring. I'm, I'm showing care for you. I love it, Love it. So, so there's another part to this that if we look a little bit deeper when we look at research of what brings us happiness. I remember reading Dr. Martin Seligman's book Authentic Happiness, and he was, he was talking about people who were genuinely happy people. And he was contrasting that even in adolescence, he said, comparing adolescents, they took him to the mall and at the mall they, you know, they had time to spend and walking around his friends. And he looked at their overall happiness and, well, being and it contrasted that with adolescents who were asked to go do a service project. The overall happiness of those who went to the mall versus those who served, it was so, I mean, the difference in happiness of those who served was significantly higher than those who went to a mall. And I just think about that concept and again, joy comes from human connection and service.

And I also think what you're talking about is, or what I hear is it's about energy. Is my energy pulling in and being self serving or is my energy abundant enough that I have enough that I'm not in a scarcity place, that I have enough to give or when I'm giving? That is where I do connect. And I can give something freely and it doesn't no big deal to me, it's a couple of hours, but to somebody else, it means the world to them. And, and you know, as we were talking about this, I thought about this earlier, but Black Friday for me is a really poignant day. Nine years ago, nine years ago, I moved from Florida to Washington and my husband had left six weeks before for his job. And I'd been there trying to pack a house with my kids on my own and get it ready to be sold. And my community showed up on Black Friday and they spent the entire day helping me fill up a semi. And those people, they are dear to my heart. And for them it was like, okay, we can take a few hours, we can, you know, we can do this. They probably don't remember it, but every, every Black Friday I think about, oh, those people who touched my life. I am so grateful for them.

What a great example. Again, a community that reaches out, that supports and helps. Again, we're talking about going through the holiday season, how to best go through it. I want to transition, if that's okay for going to relationships. Because one of the things that I've observed as a clinician that a lot of people really struggle with is, okay, how do we do these relationships that have been conflictual for years when we have to deal with it every holiday season, whether it's Thanksgiving, whether it's the Christmas time, the New Year's time, whatever your holiday preference is, what do we do when there's conflict and consistent conflict?

That is so apropos, Dr. Skinner, because every one of us will deal with conflict in some way, shape or form in the next six, you know, in the next two months or three months, or whenever. And so as we're looking at, I don't know how many of my clients come into my office and say, I'm going to be with my family and my, like, they're going to ask all these questions and I don't want to tell them or they're just rude. And I just don't know how to. I, I just, like, there's these conflicts that come up that we don't know how to handle. One of the tools that I think is so helpful can be to sit down with my clients. We'll just role play out. Okay, great. What are you expecting Aunt. Be Aunt Betty to say? And so we'll role play it out and I'll say it. I'll. I'll be Aunt Betty and I'll say what she would say. And then my client will figure out how they want to respond in a way that honors who they are, that doesn't. That is a healthy boundary. That's them saying, here's how much I want they. We determine beforehand how much I will share or how I will respond. We can visualize this even if we're tapping on our legs, doing some bilateral stimulation, just even visualizing having these interactions and preparing, creating neural pathways so that when this happens, I don't freeze. And sometimes we do freeze. And sometimes my clients will have an index card in their back pocket or on their phone and they'll pull it out and they've got a script already ready because they've, they've got cues of like, okay, when they say this, here's how I'm going to respond because I, I don't want to, I don't want to lose my own emotional sobriety. I want to stay engaged and present. And so here's my plan that I've made beforehand because I can anticipate that these things will happen, because they usually do. What, what do you do with your clients?

What you just said is one of the core strategies. I, again, proper preparation prevents a pound of pain.

How many P's was that proper preparation?

Plenty of them.

A pound of pain by the five P's of holidays. All right.

And really what we're talking about is role playing, mental rehearsal, thinking in advance. Because when you're in the heat of the moment, it's too late for your brain to come up with the solution. Most people know what's going to be said. Most people know the trigger points. It's going to be when XYZ is said. And it might be a political thing, or it might be a sports thing, or it might be, remember when you were younger, a kind of a taunting about pastimes, whatever that is. And if I know what's going to come up because it comes up every time we're together, then I can properly prepare myself for that. Okay. When it said I'm going to. And that mental preparation truly does prevent a pound of pain because it's like, oh, here they are again. So now I'm understanding I'm an observer rather than. I don't know what to do here because it ticks me off every time you say that. It's like, oh, they are going to say that again. Okay, now, now what am I going to do? And let's just. If I was role playing that, it's like, you know what? Every time we're together, you bring that real. That is a really important thing for you to say. And I, I think that's just one of those things. I'm trying to understand that that's important for you.

You're not getting in there, are you, with that? You're just letting them keep that and you're reflecting back to them what their experience is.

Yeah, that. Right. And you know what? When I was younger, I did that. That, yeah, it was embarrassing. And I, again, I, I'm not going to reward that. I'm not. You're not going to get the emotion of it. It's like, I, I've prepared for this. Now, there are times, going back to the concept we talked a little bit earlier, there's going to be some kind of a boundary that I may set and a cue that if it crosses a boundary, I'll probably excuse myself. And then there's an appropriateness to say, you know what? If it's going to cross that boundary, I'm not going to remain there. And so I've actually talked with couples in a situation and they send a cue to each other. If, if, if, if it gets too much, we've got a cue. And it's like, you know what? It's probably time for us to get home and get the kids to bed.

Yeah. You know, you know that I speak Spanish and there's, there's a Spanish little trick that ear noa means let's go now. And so you touch your ear, you touch your nose, and you kind of put your finger on your thumb. So ear noa is let's go now. And that's absolutely having these visual cues with your body language that says, I need a break. I need some help. So what I'm hearing you talk about is also like creating cues with partners.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Again. Or it's maybe staying in that environment, but it's going For a walk. You know what, it's getting hot in here. I need to take a quick break. Right. Or maybe I'll go help with the dishes again, a way to serve, a way to help. But, but concept is I, I'm aware when I'm being triggered. And that awareness is I need to do something rather than just sit back and do nothing. I'm going to be proactive because I want to be as you. I like the way you said that. I'm going to be emotionally sober. I'm not going to let my emotions get hijacked to the point where I feel flooded and don't I. What's the right way to say this? I don't deceive myself through my own actions. I'm not self deceptive. I'm like, this is. I don't want this. I want to be in control of these emotions.

Yeah. I'd love to share a couple more. Couple more strategies that I think can be really important or helpful. One of these comes from the book how to Hug a Porcupine by John Lund. And one of the things he says, he, he shares the example of a grandma who is meant all the time. Every interaction, every time they went to see grandma, she would just be mean and the kids would get in the car and on the way home, everybody be kind of crying. And what he shared is, is sometimes there are situations obviously where we can't change it. But his suggestion was to, to change the game. And so before going to Grandma's, they would say, all right, we're gonna see who grandma is the meanest to. And then on the way home they're like, well, she said this to me. Well, listen to this one that she said to me. And so they flipped it. They changed the game so that it was not, it wasn't a contest to see who grandma was the meanest to, but it kind of was. And so it took out all of the hurt and all the emotion. And so they changed. Like we can change the game a little bit and say, hold on, is there another way? And sometimes with my clients, I'll say, you know, maybe you want to lay bets with your friends, like how many times are they going to say this? And so you find some support with your group and you change the rules so that it can be something that maybe isn't going to be so painful or so triggering or you can see.

Through another lens, you know, and now again, that's preparation again to we, we the probability. And I want to say this as clear as I can the probability of certain people acting in certain ways with. When I. When I ask my clients, okay, what's the probability you're going to go to this. Into this environment? What's the probability that something is going to be said that triggers you? 100%. All right, so now what. What do you think is going to be said? And. And most people know. They're not guessing. They absolutely know. Like, okay, so in this situation, this is likely what's going to be said. Now the question is, is how are you going to respond? Now you. Now they actually have choice. Rather than being hijacked or flooded, they have choice of how to respond.

Yeah. Can I share two boundaries regarding those responses that. That I've learned that are really helpful? These come from one of my dear friends and mentors, Mindy Lundgreen, who unfortunately just recently passed away. But I carry these with me because they were so beautiful. As she shared these. The first one is when someone comes up and asks more than. Or they say something inappropriate. Just the response of, I wonder why you would think it would be appropriate or okay for you to ask me that. Or I wonder what you need to know about that. Putting that back onto the other person. I never have to share or divulge or respond to anything that I'm not comfortable with. And so being able to push that back and just say, I wonder why you feel like that would be appropriate to ask. That's a great. In my book, that's a great boundary.

And what you're doing is you're turning it into. I'm trying to understand why this is important to you, why it matters to you. And really, then you're not necessarily answering. It might be what I refer to as a Miyagi approach. If you've ever seen the Karate Kid. Wax on, wax off. Here comes the verbal. Right? The verbal and wax on. I wonder why you think that's appropriate. Wax off. Right. And there's times where we have to do that, because if we don't, then we're like, what do I say here? And then we're, you know, on the defense. There are certain times it's like, you know what? I'm probably not going to answer that question.

Yeah. And the other one that she. That she shared with me, that I love is just this response of, you know, with the information that you have, I can see how you might see it that way. I'm not prepared to talk about it with you, though. Yeah. And leaving it at that. And it. It just. It gives you an opportunity to respond in A way that's not reactive and one that's still poised with your emotional sobriety, but still within the boundaries that you feel comfortable. I'm not prepared to talk with you about this. And yes, you, I can see how you feel like this is so important and you see it this way, but, yeah, with that information, I can see how you'd see it that way.

Yeah. So, so again, talking about proper boundaries, we're talking about the importance of preparing in advance. We're talking about, we've talked a little bit about eating. I, I, I want to do at least one more thing before we end today. And you mentioned Mindy. And, and I just want to go here for a second. Mindy is somebody that both you and I have known and passed away last, I believe, last Saturday. Yeah. And to our listeners, I, I'm going to assume in your life that you've had people who've passed away, who are dear to you or who matter, who have influence. And there's, there's times in life where we need to pause and respect life. And, and Mindy's one of those people that she made the world a better place. And, and I, I, if I can just say anything, I want to pay a tribute to somebody who lived a life where she just contributed to society. And we don't talk about that, but I'm a person who says, like, if there's people who we're going to miss because they made a difference in this world, we probably need to talk about it. And what's interesting around the holidays, that's when we miss them the most, the family members and the people who, who had an impact, a positive impact on our life. And if I can tell our listeners this, and I'm going to merge the two together here for a second, I think about the people around the holidays that had just an influence on my life. I'll give you a very personal example. When I was a boy, my grandparents would come over and my grandma, she would make clothes for us. She would sew them, jackets, pants, shirts. And, yeah, I mean, yes, you can go clear back into the 70s. And I had polyester everything, but my grandma made them and she put time and effort into it. And if there's one thing I'll always remember about Grandma and the holidays, it was, it was those memories. And so one way that we can get through the holidays is respect the people who've had a powerful impact on our lives through their caring and their love. Anything you want to add to that, Marianne?

I'm tender right now because of the passing of Mindy, because she had a profound impact on my life and one thing that she taught me was to create rituals. To create rituals. So as we're talking about, there are a lot, there is a lot of loss oftentimes during the holidays and so adding to, to what you said and I think this is just such a good place to bring this. It wasn't exactly where I think either of us thought it would necessarily go today. But slow down and be present and enjoy the relationships that you have. So often we take these relationships for granted and we do. We miss them when they're not there. And oftentimes there's a. If I'd known, I wish I would have. And so the more compassion, the more that you can come in a place of using your daily self care rituals to take care of yourself so that you can show up with abundance and so that you can just slow down and take the time to listen. Take the time to see others so that they can see seen and felt and heard. That is where once again we'll say that is where our connection, that is where human intimacy be begins. And so it's. I, I think it comes back down to it's, it's about taking the time for ourselves and to really be present wherever we're at and with whoever, with whoever we are with.

Yeah. And one final point I'd like to bring up today. There are times where we think I'll never be able to repair this relationship. Don't limit those connections would be my suggestion. Life is too short to carry the burden of, of things that maybe we haven't agreed. Maybe there are things that feel impossible to heal. But it has been my experience that when I open up and I, and, and I've seen this happen in people's lives where people reclaim relationships that have been lost. Maybe it was with a parent or a grandparent or maybe it was with a sibling that we heard or didn't hear something and we're afraid, we're afraid to. We don't know what to say. We don't know how to say it. I, I just think about the relationships that we're. There's times that we can repair and sometimes around the holidays, a simple act. Hey, I hope you and your family have a good holiday season. Or I remember when we were little and we, and, and I'll never forget you did this for me. And I know we haven't had the best relationship in the last few years, but I just, I look back at that time and I just want to say thank you for being a part of my life. There are times and ways that we can repair and I know that's not always easy, but one of the gifts you can give to somebody is your forgiveness. So, Marianne, final thoughts today.

I. I love what you've shared today, Dr. Skinner. I'm so grateful for our listeners for showing up and for being here. And I truly hope that you'll take time to really consider and plan out what do I need? How can I make this season that's coming up successful and beautiful in a way that I can show up in the west the best way possible? Whether that's surrounding myself with supports and friends? Because this is going to be hard. We're charting out what I need to say, planning it out or finding ways to reach out, whatever it looks like. I invite our listeners to just have some. Once again, I think I always end on this, but it's a self compassion and taking care of yourself so that you are able to give and give freely. So I'm grateful for our listeners for being here and for sharing this time with us and especially also just to be able to mention and remember Mindy, Mindy Lund Green and the light that she brought into our world. So thank you.

Absolutely. All right. To our listeners. If, if I could summarize, proper preparation prevents a pound of pain. And I bring that up because what we've talked about today, we've talked about eating, we've talked about how to deal with stress, we've talked about strategies for serving reaching out. We close with the concept of forgiveness. There's concepts that I hope you will take with you, but proper preparation in our relationships, how to communicate, how to create boundaries, all of these things if you'll do it in advance. And this is one of the reasons why we're releasing this podcast a few weeks the holiday season because we want to give you proper time to prepare. So that being said, a couple of things. As we approach the New Year, we're going to be launching the Change 2.0 which is is truly a 12 week program. If you want to change anything, join me. It's a 12 week program where I'm going to be showing up. Marianne, you're more than welcome to join. I'm going to be showing up and I'm going to be, we're going to be talking about the change we're creating. We're going to be accountable to each other. It's a 12 week group. It doesn't matter what you want to change. Come join us and we're going to be talking about change. You want to change something, you're going to put it out there. We're going to all have a goal and I'm going to, for 12 weeks I'm going to walk through this program of how to create change, whatever it is you want to change. If you want to join us, it's a one time fee and you can include your family in it. It's a one time fee of 150. You, your entire family can join and, and again, we're just going to show up, we're going to be accountable to each other, what we're working on and we're going to go through the concepts of the 12 we class. Anyway, that's coming up. Marianne, you had a comment.

I have one quick comment on this because I totally forgotten in the next week or two prior to Thanksgiving, as you know, but I don't think any of our listeners know. I've been working on a, a course as well on boundaries focused on helping you create and figure out what your needs are, what your underlying needs are, what you're not okay with and then how to create the rules or your values that you want to live by and creating boundaries to create your own safety to take care of yourself around that. And so I just want to put that out there within the next week or two that will be live and active as well on human intimacy, which can hopefully be some helpful tools to help you get through the holidays. So I'm so glad and not just.

Not hopefully it will be helpful. I mean I, I've seen the content, Marianne, and it's going to be helpful. So if you're looking to understand and practice boundaries, Marianne's class, that's coming up, fantastic. Anyway, just want to make you guys aware of this to our listeners and closing our hope is that you can have the type of relationships, create the type of relationships that you find joy in and we appreciate the time that you are spending with us listening to this podcast and just want to express our gratitude. Thank you for listening. Marianne. Thank you so much for your time. Have a good, fantastic, outstanding, marvelous, extraordinarily great week if you choose.

Thank you.

All right, bye bye everybody.