Psychological Intimacy: The Foundation of Trust, Safety, and Healing After Betrayal (Episode #101)

There's something about you that I can't.

Help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh.

Something surround. Welcome to the human intimacy podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner, marriage and family therapist, with Marianne Michaelis, licensed clinical social worker. Marianne, last week we were talking about the seven types of intimacy, and today I want to go a little bit more in depth with those types of intimacy. Hopefully our listeners had a chance to go to the website and take the relationship intimacy test and then also look at the intimacy pyramid, or triangle, that was also as a part of that download. So if you haven't, you can go to our podcast course@humanintimacy.com it's free. You can register, take the assessment. So, Marianne, I want to just start with your thoughts after thinking about last week, seven types of intimacy, your initial thoughts, and then we'll dig into some of the ways that those intimacies can be enhanced.

First of all, Dr. Skinner, I love that you've created this course online that aligns with this podcast. So human intimacy.com is under free courses.

Free courses, and it's the companionship course for the podcast. So, okay, it's all the whole purpose is to really give our listeners a chance to go back and review, and if they want to learn more about each podcast, they can. I, I, I have to admit I've only got 80 through 8, 90 and some of the 90s in, but I'm trying to do it every week to give our listeners a chance to go in and learn more about our topic.

So that's a chunk of 20 episodes we've done. So you've got 20, 20 of them done.

Close, close. I, I have a gap in the.

90S, but this is something that you've created and it's a free tool. So if you're here listening and saying, hey, there's things in my relationship that I want to have be better, I just want to underscore the gift that you've provided. This is just information given by you about you, to help you understand you and to help you improve your relationship, which is what we're hoping to help with.

Quick story here. When I do intensives, Marianne, I incorporate these skills into how to have a better relationship. Many times individuals want to have a better relationship. They want to have the deeper connection, but they really, they're not sure what's going on and why they're experiencing what they're experiencing. In addition to doing what's called the drama triangle, which helps identify the patterns of fight and conflict, I also take the next part of this and apply these types of intimacy and help them do an evaluation of where we're at. Then I give them assignments on how to improve in each of the areas. So today we're just going to get a little bit of start on that. Talking about starting with psychological intimacy.

Yeah. And I. And I love that, Dr. Skinner, because when I sit down with my clients and we start talking about intimacy and I show them the pyramid, I'll just have them look at it and say, where do you need help? They'll say, oh, well, we're doing great here, but this one's not great, that one's not great. And so I love that. Here's an assessment that you can utilize to help you understand. Okay, in this area, I thought I was doing 95%, but actually maybe I'm at a 60. And here's some areas that might be some blind spots that I didn't realize.

Yeah. And then what if couples go take the assessment, the relationship intimacy test, they can actually see where they score because I broke it down by categories. Psychological intimacy is what I refer to as this foundation. There's four core parts there. Honesty and trust, loyalty and commitment. And if you take any of those four parts out of a relationship, the probability of a couple's fighting goes up exponentially. If there's not trust and honesty, then there's more questions. I'm asking questions because I want to know if you're being honest with me. I want to know if you're being truthful. For me, that's after observing couples when they were fighting, I'm like, they don't trust each other or they're not. Honesty here, which is why in the work that we do, it's helping couples be honest with each other, truthful with each other, that has to be the foundation. In addition to that, the loyalty, which. There's a story that I often tell with this, and it's an older story, but it's very meaningful to me because I like studying and reading about presidents of the United States. And because these are influencers. These are the people who've had a lot of influence. So there's just one in particular, Ronald Reagan. And, you know, obviously an actor. And this guy was, I mean, one of the most popular presidents in terms of voting ever. And he grew up in a home where his dad was an alcoholic. And there's times where he actually had to go drag his dad out of a bar and drive him home, where he'd find his dad at the door, who just came in and just collapsed. Right. I mean, really difficult experience for him. You know, goes to California, obviously becomes an actor, and the rest is history. But more than one marriage, Nancy, I think, is his third wife. The loyalty of that relationship was an interesting one to me because here's what happened. He had won his second term, and she was hosting a dinner at their home where he was not present. He was being present, doing his thing. The dignitaries were there. A guy who had ran for a congressman spot in his state was there, and he had lost, barely. He was a little bit upset because President Reagan didn't go stump for him and help him collection.

He was kind of frustrated, salty and resentful.

A little resentful. So he's talking about that and he's expressing his frustration. And Nancy's like, you know, I appreciate, you know, your concerns, but. But you're in my house. Please don't talk about my husband that way. All right. So confronted once, right now, they're all around the dinner table being served. He brings it up again. So obviously this is really frustrated. And she gets up from the dinner table, she goes over, taps him on the shoulder in front of everybody else and says, if you are going to talk about my husband that way in my house, you can leave. And I think about that kind of loyalty in a relationship, knowing that this person has my back, knowing that. That this person has my best interest in mind. And that's where I find when couples start aligning in loyalty, like, look, especially if there's been sexually acting out or other forms of hurt, and coming back into that honesty of, I want to be this person who you can rely on, who you know has your back. When I start seeing that in coupleships, Marianne, that's where I see the greatest progress.

First of all, I love that story about President Nancy Reagan. That's beautiful. And as I'm hearing you talk about this, the thing that came to my mind that I hadn't even thought about this before, but I think that this is a little bit fluid. We have to have the psychological intimacy in to create these other levels of intimacy. However, I think I often look at it and it's like, here it is. It's there, and it's stuck, and it's not going there. But when we're looking at betrayal, when there has been betrayal, you know, I have some clients who go through disclosure and they learn everything that I thought I knew. I don't know. I don't know anymore. My whole reality's changed. And for 20 years, you've been lying to me. That Disrupts the whole entire system. And if I still don't have any information or if I found something but I don't have all the information, it makes sense that I'm going to be interrogating more. It makes sense that I'm gonna. My nervous system will be dysregulated. My window of tolerance, the way that I'm reacting to everything, I will be hypersensitive. Hypersensitivity is part of ptsd. And that means that I'm not super regulated all the time, which means that's going to impact my emotional intimacy, that's going to impact my verbal intimacy. And there are moments in the relationship where for a blip, I might be like, oh, okay, I saw something and I feel. I feel a little bit safer now. And then I might feel something or see something of I'm triggered. I don't feel this. And so we put it on a piece of paper and say, here it is, this block. And it's a principle that we're talking about. But I think we also go in and out of it, especially when we've been betrayed. I think we go in and out of all of these levels.

Yes, it's not stagnant. We look at relationships and that would be the ideal that we are always being loyal and we're always showing honesty and trust. But. But yeah, there's an ebb and a flow. And as couples rebuild a relationship after betrayal or after some kind of harm, there. There's going to be a process. But the question then we really back it up to is, am I the kind of a person that is loyal? And when I find that clients who've been acting out unfaithful and they started exploring that, it's. It's a very interesting conversation because now it's a self reflection, like, no, I'm not showing loyalty. Is that kind of a human being that I want to be right?

And, and if I hear that from a betrayed partner's perspective, if my partner has just, you know, blown up my whole world, I might have to question, say, do I even want to be loyal to this relationship? Am I still wanting to stay in this relationship? What I'm trying to say is it's a little bit more conditional sometimes. And we're. We're constantly seeking the. We're sharing an ideal today, but we know that there are just different levels within these spaces that we have to give ourselves a lot of grace for, because I'm not always at my best. And if my partner hasn't been loyal to me, I might say, okay, does that change my degree? Or I might be really questioning my loyalty in the relationship as well.

Yeah. So let me clarify something here. I think most betrayed partners would say, I'm. I'm extremely loyal. In fact, if I stay, I'm showing loyalty. The question actually is commitment, which is the fourth part. We separated out loyal, because betrayed partners tell me, I have been loyal.

Sure.

I don't know if I want to be committed.

There you go. Yeah, right.

So that's where the distinction is. Especially, like, I don't know if you're committed. And now after discovery, I don't know how to feel about my commitment. And that sometimes will shake up the system. Like, I don't know if I'm in anymore. But we don't necessarily always say that, but that's actually what's being felt. And so that type of honesty in a relationship is, look, after discovery, I'm really questioning whether you're committed. And it's making me question whether I should be committed.

And then you look at that and you think about what's going on with the nervous system and how we're relating to each other. And it can create tension. Like, this is obviously going to create tension because there's uncertainty about this relationship, which is probably my main primary attachment relationship, which means it's. My system is going to be not functioning at its best, and that may have some health impacts, and that's going to have relational impacts. Like, this is a ripple that continues.

Right. And so from a negative perspective, I don't know if you're committed because of your behaviors, and I don't know if I'm committed. Now. Neither partner has that foundation of, I know I'm in a hundred percent now. I've often hear the person who was acting out, no, I'm in. I'm committed. I'm like, I'm done with that. I'm committed. Well, that's why we have to do the work to show we're committed. That's why if we look at the work that we do with doing a disclosure, doing an impact letter, doing emotional restitution, if I'm willing to do the kind of work that shows, like, my heart's in this, and I regret deeply my behaviors, that manifestation is going to come over time and it's earned. It's not automatically accepted. And it's not something that you just say, okay, I know you're committed. It is something that requires time. And that's where I find many people struggle because I'm uncomfortable not knowing that you are committed to this relationship.

And as we're talking over time, if we're talking about. In a sexual addiction, if there are sexual addiction behaviors, this can be so hard because there's often a slip or a relapse. And so just when I feel like, okay, here I am, I've got some stable ground underneath us, this trust has been built. There may be a slip or relapse, which brings it all down again. And so there's this rebuilding process that happens, that needs to happen over and over. It's a daily process. I think you can rely on me. Or if I mess up, I think it's also about the rupture and repair. Can I trust you? That if you do make mistakes and you don't get this perfectly, that you're going to still continue forward with that, that intention of continuing in the relationship, that loyalty part and that commitment part.

And this is why trust and honesty are so important, that if there is a slip or a relapse, that there is honesty and truthfulness around that. Because if there's not that kind of deception, gaslighting then prevents this psychological intimacy because it's not going to be present. So this is the foundation, Marianne. If we look at trust and honesty, loyalty and commitment, and you take those four parts and you put them into a relationship, you're going to have more success, you're going to feel psychological safety, your body's more likely to relax. And that's ultimately the foundation that we want to work from in developing intimacy. Because when those things aren't present, I can still have a conversation with you. It might not always be pleasant because the conflict and the fighting, because what are we talking about? Are you being honest with me? Are you being truthful with me? Are you loyal to me? If that's not present, then I'm asking lots of questions. And I don't know if you're committed to me, then I'm questioning my own commitment. But I'm also probably pursuing, are you? Are you in? Are you in? And when a betrayed partner becomes more. And this is really important from my perspective, when a betrayed partner becomes more hyper vigilant, really what they're asking for is, are you committed? Are you being honest? Are you being truthful with me? That's really what they're saying. So they're being hyper vigilant, watching eye contact messages, you came home late, whatever it is, they're watching like an eagle, because they're really asking the internal question, are you safe?

Right? And we call that safety seeking. It's fascinating that we can talk about topics and principles, and sometimes they just kind of crystallize and you see them a different way. We specialize working with betrayal trauma. Betrayal trauma is the disruption of psychological intimacy. It is. I can't trust you. You haven't been loyal. You haven't been there for me. You haven't been truthful. There's been dishonesty, deceit, hiding. The whole concept of betrayal trauma is really built around the disruption of the psychological intimacy. I don't know who you are. I can't trust you. You aren't. You haven't been safe. And that is the betrayal. Most of the time. I know that this is probably your experience as well, but most of the time with betrayal trauma, my clients will say, okay, yeah, he looked at porn. Like, there's some emotions and issues around that, but it's more the secrecy, the hiding, the disconnect, and the exit from the relationship with me. That is. That is what's being betrayed. It's this safety that you're there for me, that I can trust you. That is the betrayal.

Yes. And so when we break that down, and again, it doesn't have to be sexual betrayal by itself, there could be many other forms of that. If I'm dishonest with you in some way and you find out spending money, doing something behind my back, I mean, there's multiple forms that psychological intimacy has fractured or broken. Am I being honest in this relationship? So let me give a very specific example. When people say, I know I've hurt you, I heard this from the betraying partner. I know I've hurt you, but I'm committed. You're not committed anymore. The honest truth is I don't know if I'm committed. But do I dare say that, or do I say something else that deflects that question in and of itself? Because we're not actually talking about commitment anymore. We're talking about all these other things, like, well, you've been lying to me. Well, the truth is, if I did a real reflection, Marianne, I might be saying, honestly, after what you've done, I need to do a really deep evaluation and see what my thoughts are. And I need to reflect on that, and I'll talk with you about it. But right now, I don't know my answer.

And I'm putting myself in that situation as we're talking about it. I know that I would probably say I have a lot of thoughts that I'm trying to figure out, but I might not feel like I'm ready to Even share them with you right now because you haven't been safe. And I've got some walls up because there's distance here, because I don't have that safety that I can trust you. I can't be really vulnerable with you right now. These are attachment wounds we're talking about. These are breaches in the relationship. There's a big rupture here, and it creates. Like, we have to have that safety to be able to even share. Here's where I'm really at.

And that kind of response that you just gave is very different than me just being angry and upset. It's different than me avoiding or ignoring you. That. That, too, takes emotional honesty to figure out how to communicate what you're actually experiencing. So even that communication back is trust and honesty developing because I'm truthful with what I'm experiencing. So, Bar, both partners need to be truthful and honest with what they're experiencing for psychological intimacy to come into this relationship.

Yes. And I'm thinking right now, Dr. Skinner, about so many clients that I've worked with, especially betrayed partners who will say. And they may have been betrayed in different ways, not necessarily sexually, but they'll say, you know, my husband, he'll know the things that he needs to do, and he'll check the boxes. He'll check the boxes, and it's all form but no substance. Everything feels exactly the same way that it did before. He says the right things, but it feels like there's this emptiness, like there's nothing there. And so we can go through a lot of motions, but deep down at the bottom of all this, our nervous system, our gut, our body knows when we are attuned. Our body knows when we're safe. And so when it feels hollow or off or like the words are there. I'm thinking about years ago, I had a client do a. My client shared her impact letter. And then her spouse came and sat down, and he shared his emotional restitution letter. His emotional restitution letter was. It was, like, perfect. Like, everything I remember looking at going like, holy cow. Wow. Where did this come from? This is amazing. And then we sat in the room, and he read it to his wife. There was no emotion. There was no emotion there. And his wife was like, what? Like, there were all these beautiful words that. That could have been so healing, but there was no emotion or feeling to that. And so, once again, this is where we get tied up in. Into. We can say words, but are we really there?

Yeah. So let's just keep going with this train of thought, if I'm the person who is acting out and I say, of course I'm committed, we often hear that phrase, of course I'm committed. I want this relationship, but I need to do an honest reflection. I've struggled with XYZ behavior. Now that again, is more honesty. Right? So if I'm completely honest, would I not then say I am committed? And I struggle with giving up XYZ behavior. It's. It's not easy for me if they say it's pornography. It's not easy for me just to quit after however long I've been involved with it. And so I need to be completely honest with you. That may be harder than I ever realized. Now, that type of honesty creates that type of intimacy, even if we're not necessarily connecting, I am seeing into you. So I feel what your battle is. Many times I talk with betrayed partners, and they say things like, I don't even know what my spouse is thinking. I don't know how they're feeling. I don't know if they're in recovery. I can't tell.

Right.

But that kind of honesty of, look, I'm. I've struggled through my entire life not doing this behavior, and now I'm trying to curtail that. I'm trying to, because I want to be committed. I want to show you that because you matter. That's a very different conversation than, of course I'm committed, sure.

But. But going back to that conversation, how tricky is that? Because if you are trying to get to that space to share that with me, and if I'm betrayed and my nervous system is on red alert, and I'm maybe a little more regret. Aggressive or defensive or reactive, you might be like my reactions to you trying to say that, like, this is the cycle where you may end up in shame. That's what I mean. You're defensive and. And here we go. Because you're trying to be honest. But it's maybe not safe for you because I'm super dysregulated.

And so even if that is upsetting, that I am having a hard time, I'm still dealing with temptations or struggles. I would tell you on my experience, most betrayed partners would rather know the battle. When I talk with them, they want to know it. You might not be able to hold it. They might be feel threatened by it. They may not want you to struggle with it anymore. But if you're congruent, that's what you need to do. If you're going to create psychological intimacy because it's honesty and truthful.

Yes. And I want to just break this apart because we've been talking about the psychological part, a lot of that. But when I look at intimacy, intimacy to me, if you were to say, hey, Marianne, how do you define intimacy? The instant word that comes up for me is vulnerability. Can I be open? Can I have my body be intimacy for me feels like you're laying on the ground and your body's open. You know, you could get hit, you could get punched, but I'm letting you see everything. I'm not hiding that into that. Vulnerability is really about. I'm sharing something with you. And I know that I could get hurt. I know that this is. It feels like a risk, and I'm really trusting that you're going to that be safe for me there. And so we're talking about the psychological part, but this intimacy part really is about the vulnerability. So as you were saying, I'm in this congruent place. The intimacy part is. And here's really where I'm at. Can I really let you see into what's going on with me? Because that's scary. If I really tell you the thoughts that are in my head, you might not like that. You might want to leave. You might want to throw something at me. And can I show up and actually show you what's really going on? Versus I'm checking the box, I'm going through the motions. Can I really let you in?

And I have a lot of thoughts about this because we're asking a person to be honest and truthful and not knowing how their spouse is going to.

Respond, which is terrifying.

So let's walk through that. If I'm the betrayed spouse there, and my truth is it scares me to hear that, then I could also communicate that. That scares me. Right, because you're telling me that it's hard and it's a battle for you. That scares me. Yeah, that's honesty. But there's a part that was we have to pay very close attention to in that communication. If the betraying partner says, I want to deal with this because I want us to be good, and now I'm expressing a commitment to express to this relationship. I want to figure this out because we matter. You matter. That goes to the commitment. Part of this psychological intimacy is I'm expressing my commitment. I want to figure this out because I want to be with you. That's the language I'm looking for here. Because if I just said to you, look, of course I'm dealing with temptations. They're not going away. And I stopped it there. Well, that is scary.

Well, if you said that to me, Dr. Skinner, you said I'm dealing with them and of course they're not going away. Matter of fact, period, my nervous system is going to go like, okay, and what, and what then? And you're doing something about it. You're not doing something about it. Like, what does that mean? But yeah, I have a hard stop with my nervous system saying like, and they're not going away, which tells me this is here and this isn't safe.

For me and I don't know what to do with it.

Right, right.

So that's why I'm saying when I'm communicating it, like, if I say I'm committed, I need to show that through the interaction, through this conversation. And that's the part where we just continually break down.

Marianne, can you go back then? I'd love to hear you role play then. Like, let's not leave that hanging. What would healthy look like then?

So just as what I was saying, right. If I, if I'm expressing, I'm still dealing with temptations, but I want to figure this out and I'm getting help talking with my sponsor. I'm doing those things because I care about us. That would be the. That specific example. But when we do intensives, getting back to what I was going to say there, when we do intensives, I take every couple situation or scenario and we role play that. Right. You don't just automatically become psychologically intimate. There is practice, there is a conversation. There are ways that we haven't been truthful and honest and loyal and committed, and we break that down and we then have to role play how to do that and how to talk through those things.

Okay, so I have a quick question for you. What are your thoughts on. About radical honesty? Where does that fit in here?

Radical honesty? Yes, I'm truthful, but I can also give way too much information that is not going to be relevant for you and your healing. Right. So if I said I was dealing with some temptations today and I contacted my sponsor to, to address those, this is what the outcome was. And here's what I'm going to do moving forward rather than, hey, you have to tell me every detail of every fantasy or here, let me tell you.

Everything I thought about today, that that's too much.

And I've seen it go both directions. I've seen the person who is experiencing that be so open that it's just too much for their spouse. And then some Spouses. I want to know every detail. I want to know every thought. And that is just too much data, too much information. That's not radical honesty. That's harming the other person. I've learned this over my career. Just because you have a thought does not mean that's what you want to do. The thought comes, as my friend said, Ken Patey, you can't stop a bird from landing on your head, but you can stop it from building a nest.

I love that.

So, hey, the thought came, I was able to push it out. But sometimes these thoughts just come and I'm just owning it because I don't like those thoughts. But I'm honest. I just want to deal with it.

So here's what happened with me today, and here's what I did about it. That's the language we're looking for. And I call that accountability versus transparency. I want to be transparent with my partner. Here's what occurred, the whole thing, not just stopping at here's the thoughts. It's, and then what did I do? And that helps, definitely helps create the safety.

And that shows that transparency is more of a loyalty to us. I'm talking about it again. Transparency, openness, honesty, that type of connection comes from that kind of communication. So, Marianne, I mean, psychological intimacy, we've talked about it in depth today, and I think to you, our listeners, I just want to say psychological intimacy is a process. Don't expect that you're just going to be there. This takes work. And if you find that you're stuck and you guys don't know how to move forward, that's what therapy's for. And our invitation is to think about it. How do we improve in these areas? So I will put a few questions for our listeners to think about in the download for this that you can find at our free course online.

Right. I just want to add to that as we wrap up Dr. Skinner, that we all have relationships. And whether it's with my boss, whether it's with my child, whether it's with my spouse or a family member, every relationship has this base of psychological intimacy. Are you there for me? Can we connect? And we obviously, we have boundaries on different relationships, on how much we share, where we share, where we don't. But it all boils down to, are you there? Do you have my back? Can I trust you? Can I be safe opening up? And can I be my full self with you? Can I let you see all of me? And so as we are wrapping up today's episode, love, just to invite Our listeners. Maybe your relationship with your spouse is good, but you need to do some work with a family member or a friend. I'd love to invite you to look at what relationships do I need to maybe notice a little bit more how I'm showing up, how I'm, how others feel in my presence, how others are showing up with me and really just do some reflection on where, where can I utilize these principles and give yourself always grace and notice. As we talked about earlier, this is fluid. Sometimes we feel safer, sometimes we feel less safe. And then also I'd love to invite you just to challenge yourself and notice where am I not feeling vulnerable? And really break that apart and look at that and figure out what conversations do I need to have and where do I need to improve this. So thank you for being here today and for a great conversation.

So just to highlight something you just said as we close up, psychological safety is seeing into someone else's mind. If we look at psychological, the mind, the brain, the body, the honesty, trust, loyalty, commitment, seeing into me, into my commitment, into who I am, into I'm honest, truthful, that part when we're that type of psychological intimacy, every other form of intimacy that we talked about last week and then we'll talk about in the future is built upon this. It's really, it really is. And without it, every other form of intimacy is going to feel not the potential that it can have. So that's the area that I, we start with because we encourage you, our listeners, to focus on developing in this. And again, it's going to be a process. So thank you very much, Marianne. Upcoming conference March 13th and 14th of 2026. We are going to have a online conference that is going to be filled with so many incredible experts that are going to be talking about individual healing, recovery, how to be better in relationships. And I'm really, really excited. I got a couple more commitments from some friends this week. Dan Oaks and Dr. Alex Theobald are gonna be doing some presentations for us. So really excited. If you wanna learn more, we'll have a link at the bottom of our show. Notes or, or you can sign up 40% off to the end of the month. Anyway, we'd love to have you join us at the upcoming Human Intimacy Conference.

Oh, that's fantastic. And I will say I've met Dan briefly, but I've interacted a lot with Dr. Alex Theobald and every time I hear him talk, I learn something and he makes me think about things a different way. That's fantastic. Can I just also just plug. If you're just joining us and you're and you know you're new to our podcast, we're also available on YouTube, so please look for us there as well. We also have Reclaim, which is a podcast and a course@human intimacy.com. it's a course as well, right?

Yeah, yeah.

Reclaim, which is a podcast and there's also a accompanying course on human intimacy for pornography addiction. And we also have Rise, Hope and Healing After Sexual Betrayal, which is also a podcast and a course Also on human intimacy.com for betrayed partners. These are additional materials and resources that if you want to dive a little bit deeper, we'd love to have you join us and join us in those spaces as well.

Thank you so much for listening today. May you be blessed. And in the past, if you've listened to the podcast, you may have heard me say this. Have a good, fantastic, outstanding, marvelous, extraordinarily great week if you choose. Bye bye, everybody.