Rebuilding Us: Turning Conflict into Connection (Episode #78)

There's something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh.

Something's around. Welcome to the human intimacy podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner. Marianne Michaels. Another day, another busy day for me. How about you, Marianne? How are you doing?

I'm so happy to be here, Dr. Skinner. Yes, it's a really busy season. You know, both you and I went to weddings today and there's a lot going on with people getting married for some reason right now. But I know we're going to be talking about rupture repair and responsibility and talking about relationships. But before we get started, I really want to just make sure, first of all, that we're welcoming those who are listening and who are following us, watching us on YouTube. We are so glad that you are here, that you're joining us. And our why of what we're doing this podcast for and why we're sharing this is because we want people to have better relationships. We want you to have a better relationship with yourself and with other people. And so we invite you. If you like what you hear, please feel free to hit the like button. It helps our algorithms, it helps us be found. Share it with your friends, post it on social media. We just, we want to make the world a better place. We want to help everyone have better intimacy in their relationship. So we're glad that you're here and thank you for joining us. Back to you, Dr. Spinner.

Yes, I want to just say, please, thumbs up, whatever, whatever, like whatever you need to do. We, we genuinely appreciate it. I want to start off today, Marianne, with a short story. And you know, we both just attended receptions and I often think about the mindset of these individuals. It's an exciting day, it's a hope filled day. And yet every couple, there's never going to be a couple that doesn't have some kind of a rupture to the relationship. Some of them are significant, some of them may seem insignificant, but they are significant because what happens in significance is we don't know how to solve it, we don't know what to do with it. And so the story I want to share is of an experience I had many years ago. And part of it is the expectations that we go with into a marriage, into this committed relationship. And when I talk with individuals, one of the first things I try to understand is the expectations. When we go into a next relationship, we have these expectations of what we think marriage is going to be like. And if we're not prepared for that kind of an expectation, that there's going to be conflict and there's going to be challenges and we're going to have disagreements. When we have that argument, we might be surprised by our own response, like, did I marry the right person? Did I make a mistake? And so when that first rupture occurs, we call it rupture. Something occurs, conflict occurs. And often when we don't know how to solve it, then what do we do? And I was talking with individual and he's like, well, I was taught that we just forgive and move on. But in a situation with his wife, it was like, I've never seen my parents fight. And so you have different perceptions of differences and how we work through those differences. And in that specific situation, helping them learn how to navigate from two different backgrounds was a significant challenge. You want to know the outcome?

Absolutely.

Well, the outcome is still in progress because what you have to do is you have to realize that in every relationship, when we develop the skills to repair, our relationship is sustainable. But when we don't have the relationship skills, how to navigate through, how to say simple things like that, I was wrong, I'm sorry, I made a mistake, let me have a do over. I need to say that differently because that wasn't right. When we learn how to have humility in our relationships, we really can repair the ruptures that occur.

I think there's so much there, Dr. Skinner, in that. Even that list that you just shared of the words that we need to learn how to say, which is part of that taking responsibility and being able to look at ourselves and see ourselves. I think so many times we get defensive if somebody speaks out or disagrees with us. It can feel really threatening. And so if we're threatened, then we pull out our guns and we are ready to fight. Rather than being able to look at ourselves really objectively and say, is there any truth in this? Do I need to own it?

All right, so Marianne, question for you. What do we fight about?

That's a really good question, Dr. Skin. What do we fight about? I don't think we ever fight about the socks on the floor. I've got a really good example. So for a very large part of my marriage, my husband in the morning would get out his hair gel and he'd get his hair ready. I mean, he, you know, it's not really long. It's, it's not a big deal. And then he'd leave the gel on the counter and I'd like, I could have the bathroom completely perfectly clean, spotless, and he'd leave the gel on the counter. And I'd say, do you mind putting the gel away? And for whatever reason, for 20 years, he, like, the. The gel just never, ever got away.

20 years.

It never got put away. And I. And I just kind of went. Felt like I was a little bit crazy because I'd just be like, I've asked you, I've asked you nicely. I've reminded you. I've just taken it and put it away. I've put it in the back of the back, underneath. So you really had to work to get it, hoping you'd like. I tried everything I thought, and it just didn't work. And then one day, we were talking with somebody doing some couples work, not as therapists, but just working on our own relationship, and this got brought up. What's something that drives you bonkers about your partner? And I said, he can't put the hair gel away. I mean, I know he can, but he won't. Here's the thing, we weren't fighting, but there was tension there. It wasn't about the hair gel. It was that I didn't want to be his mother. I didn't want the mother role. And that was what the conflict for, at least for me, my hard feelings were about. I didn't feel heard. I'd asked, I didn't feel heard. And then I felt like I was cleaning up after him. And that was. I think that those are the things that we fight about. It's not the hair gel.

No.

It's the underlying.

No. It's the message. I asked and you didn't respond. And so that makes me feel or think, what about our relationship or this specific situation? The reality is we always have stories. We create stories that we incorporate into how we see ourselves and our partners. Right. And so individuals, when I work with them, I often get to a core question, like, what are we fighting about? And usually it boils down to a few. I'm going to call them unspoken things. We might call them an unmet need, but we might also say an unmet expectation that I expect that you're going to put the gel away. Right. We had this conversation. I expect that's going to happen. But when it doesn't happen, then something shifts and I began to interpret it. You said something interesting, right? I didn't want to be your mom. Well, I'm going to assume that he wasn't even thinking about you being his mom there. But it was something that triggered something inside of you. In every relationship, we have these things. I remember early in Our marriage, my wife. I bought some toothpaste, and it wasn't the toothpaste that my wife was used to. And she said, why did you buy that kind of toothpaste? I'm like, I had no idea that it mattered. I mean, in my life, I went and found the cheapest toothpaste because I didn't have any money, but I get fine. But again, it wasn't about toothpaste. It was about this. Why did you do this? And so we begin to have what are seemingly simple differences, and they grow when we can't resolve them. And then we begin to tell ourselves a story. You don't love me. You don't care about me. And we begin to do that over and over again, and we start to form beliefs about each other that are not good for our relationship.

Okay, I've got to comment on that. Now, this is where it always takes me a minute to think about your questions. And I come back, I'm like, okay, I found it. So back to that question. What do we fight about? I think we fight about expectations, usually unmet expectations. I have an expectation that XYZ will happen, and you don't. You didn't do it. So I feel frustrated, I feel disappointed. Because you didn't meet the expectation that I had for you. I think that's at the core of what we're talking about.

Yeah. So I think unmet needs, like, I have this need, and you're not fulfilling that need. Unmet expectations that I expect that that's what we do in relationships. And I would add a few other things. The way we fight, my tone of voice, my negativity. If I'm critical. Using John Gottman's four Horsemen, right? Defensive listening, how we fight. But that still doesn't answer the question of why we fight. Just because we look at John Godman's four Horsemen, right? Criticism, contempt, defensive listening, and stonewalling. When we look at those, they are not why we're fighting. There's a reason why I'm being critical. There's a reason why I'm using contempt or I'm using defensive listening or stonewalling. And that why is what most people overlook. And when we actually heal relationships, it's because we're shifting Marianne into a place where I'm trying to understand what your need or expectation actually is. And I'm willing to. I might even say, humble enough to say, is that. Is that the expectation? Is that what you're. What are you really saying there? What are you needing to.

What I'm hearing you say here, Dr. Skinner, is this is where it's shifting from me and my needs to what is it you need? What's going on for you? So. So I think I'm hearing you talk about this push away from self. I wanna just add one other part into here. Once Again, talking about Dr. Gottman, he talks about a positive sentiment override and a negative sentiment override. And what he talks about with this is, in our relationships, there's a point where we can forgive the other person, overlook the other person's, you know, not putting the gel away, getting the wrong.

They're humanness.

Yes, they're humanness because, okay, they had a bad day. Oh, they're tired. We can give them the benefit of the doubt. But there's a point where when we aren't repairing the relationships over and over again, that we start to lose that positive. Yeah. That positive regard. And then we start to see everything through a darker lens, through a more negative lens. And it's a lot harder for our relationships to repair from that place because we're not seeing it through a positive lens.

And if I was to add just a couple of additional thoughts to that. When I start to build that story against my spouse, what happens, Marianne, is I start to interact with him in different ways. So my thoughts might be more negative, my interactions might be more negative. I might not be as positive. I might not spend as much time with them. I'm not going to certainly say positive things towards them. And so it's picked up. We begin to sense this conflict. And sometimes this is going back to what we talked a little bit last time about, this concept of honesty and being truthful with what's actually happening inside of us. Which is, to me, a really important part of, like, am I willing to be honest and say I'm frustrated with you? I'm discouraged right now the way we're interacting. So that's concept number one I wanted to talk about. But there's one that, to me is maybe even more important that I'd like to spend a little more time with. Can we put this one to bed?

Well, yeah. Yeah. Let's finish this one up for just a second because I think what you said is so important. It's about those I statements we want. I believe one of the healthiest tools we can use in conflict resolution and even just expressing ourselves in communication is the I statements. I feel when this happened, I felt so not. You made me, because that puts me in a victim place. But I feel X, Y, Z when this Happened, I felt X, Y, Z. And because I'm owning. That's the responsibility part of the rupture repair responsibility. I've got to own where I'm at. I've got to own what's going on. I've got to own my expectation, because, you know, I have a whole script in my head of what the plan is, of what we're doing next or what I'm expecting my husband to do, and. Or whoever it is in the relationship that I'm in with. And if they don't know, they're set up for failure. And. And that happens sometimes. But me being able to come back and say, oh, I thought this. This was my expectation, and I feel frustrated or I felt disappointed or that was really hard for me. And so I had some angry feelings that. Those. That ownership right there, I just think is so crucial to any relationship.

And I think there's another couple parts with this. Am I able to hear what my spouse is saying? If my spouse says, I am frustrated or I'm disappointed, can we hear that? Because that really then falls on us. And this is really the concept that I wanted to take us to next. And that is if I can't hear your frustration, if I'm intolerant of it, because maybe I interpret it as, okay, you're criticizing me, right? You're frustrated. I could take that as criticism. And, okay, you can't handle my disappointment, and so I might shut down because my spouse or partner might not be able to hear my disappointment. So am I capable of actually trying to see what my partner's saying? And then the other part of that is myself, Am I aware of my expectations? Because sometimes my disappointments, Marianne, they might be on me. And it might not have anything to do with my partner. It might actually have to do with my unmet need. And I might be thinking, oh, you don't. You don't really love me. You don't care about me because you're not meeting this need I have, whatever that is. And so there are times where I think we're missing out because we're not doing our own work or doing our own stuff to say, am I showing up in this relationship with expectations that are maybe unrealistic or that are too demanding or hurtful to my spouse or partner?

Yeah, Dr. Skinner, I'm just thinking also about that responsibility for my work. It is so easy for me to project blame onto somebody else. So easy to say, well, you did this and you did this and you didn't do that, rather than slowing down and really checking, going like, hmm, how am I doing with my commitments and what's going on with my emotions? I think we just fast track to projecting onto the other person self awareness.

Of what I'm experiencing and why am I approaching this relationship this way? You may have done or said something that was very hurtful to me. I may have done something that's very hurtful to you. Have we done that relationship repair? Have we not done that relationship repair on maybe on specific issues? I mean, we talk a lot about betrayal on this podcast. But I think there's the whole other part of this, Marianne, where I might not be in a place where I have enough self awareness to communicate what's really happening inside of me. And so I think really in order for us to really show up in relationships, we need to do enough work to say, I think I'm feeling, I'm experiencing now, is it why am I thinking? Or why am I feeling this way? What is it that's driving this inside of me? And I think with that personal awareness, that's really where when a rupture occurs, I need to be able to communicate authentically with what that rupture, what it did to me and how I'm responding. And if I don't do that, then I might come with high guns blazing, angry, yelling, screaming. But that doesn't communicate what's actually happening inside of me. When we look at John Gottman's criticism or contempt, when I use criticism or contempt against you as a person, I'm not communicating what's happening inside of me. It's more of an. A verbal assault or attack on you. And so learning how to communicate what's actually happening inside of us is our job, our responsibility, as you're saying.

Yeah, and I would say it's okay if we're a mess inside. It's okay if we don't quite know exactly what it is. And I'm thinking about the podcast I think you did with Dr. Jason Whiting, if I got that right. There's just one part that I remember that got stuck in my brain that I go back to over and over. And that's where he talked about sometimes we're not fit for human consumption, I think is how he put it. And this is where we need friends and other people not to gossip about our partner. But sometimes we need support people to help us work through because that self awareness, sometimes my emotions are so high, it's really hard for me to get that self awareness. And if I come to my partner immediately, with that, it might not be as helpful. But if I have somebody that I trust that I can say, help me walk this through, help me see what my blind spots are, help me, help me figure out what's going on for me, then I can go to my partner and say, hey, I need to have a conversation with you because I'm a little more level headed and I can really approach it from a healthy space.

Yeah. In my online class@human intimacy.com, how to communicate when you don't know what to say, One of those core concepts is, is it's a three part process. I've talked about, you know, what am I trying to communicate and why is this so important to me? So what, what is it that I'm really trying to say? And I think far too often we go into communication where we don't even know our, what we're really trying to say. We're just going into it because we've been triggered and here comes this trigger. I'm going to yell, I'm upset, I'm angry. If we would take a step back and say, well, okay, what is the message I'm really trying to get across here? What is the key point or core point I need to communicate and why is it so important to me? Just those two things followed by the third is how do I best communicate it? You're going to be way better in your communication if you would implement that type of communication in your interaction in your relationship.

You know, as you're saying that, I'm just thinking about the understanding, at least in my culture, where I come from, my worldview, how I see things. I don't think people get married and turn to relationships with the idea of like, oh yeah, this will just be a short lived thing. The couples and the clients that I work with, they show up because their hearts are hurting. Their lives are in a tumult because of some type of conflict or betrayal. Something that's happened because they made a promise, because they made a commitment to spend their life with somebody. And so recognizing, see there's that question of like, how did we get here? How did. Because you think about that shiny happy feeling that you're just kind of glowing. You're thinking, wow, life's gonna always be like this. It's gonna be so great. And then hard things happen. And I think it is where we start losing that ability to see our partner as this is a person that I'm working together with. Yeah, I'm sharing my life with that I'm sharing my problems with not at or not keeping from, but it is this connected partnership. And if we can approach it from this place of I'm choosing to go through life with you, how do we get to that?

Yeah. So what's interesting, Marianne, you know, we, we talked about the rupture, the repair and the responsibility. Can I add a fourth R?

Let's do it.

Let's do rebuild. Because recently I've been trying to figure out how to build more internal strength in the muscles throughout my body. And so I found this incredible app and it's got about a 10 or 11 minute exercise of stretching. And then every once in a while you do some chair exercises. And so I've been doing it for a little over a week. Try to do it five, six times a week. I'll tell you, I've been sore because there's muscles like, they're like, excuse me, you haven't been around here using me for years. What are you thinking? And so, like, just certain movements like, wow, that, that hurts, or it's sore. In relationships, when we are dealing with real life issues, we're going to bump into situations and maybe stories from our past, maybe even prior to this relationship that we're going to bump into. And we're going to make those muscles soar, the way we interact with each other. And the question is, can we step back and rebuild and continue to strengthen this and say, look, I'm here for the long haul, I'm here with you, and I want to work through these things and I want to figure it out. Can we come at it from that place or do we take it from a place of we've got conflict and we don't know how to solve it. Something's wrong with our marriage. And this is an interesting thing that I've been reading more and more about. And I love the language of this. It's a we issue. We've got a challenge that we're trying to solve rather than you or I am trying to fix this. And if we can shift, we've got a challenge here. What are some solutions? And we look for options. That is such an incredibly powerful shift away from you have a problem or I have a problem. And that shift into the we. We got a situation, let's figure it out. Because we love each other, we're committed to it.

This relationship, I love that. And I want to throw this, the caveat in there. If I'm a betrayed partner, how do I get to that place? My partner's not showing up. Honestly, how do I get to that place because I see a lot of my betrayed partners who want to fix it and they're trying everything and they've been throwing everything they can at it. I dragged my husband to counseling, I dragged him to do these things and it's just not working. So what do you say to that?

So I want to do it from two perspectives. Absolutely correct. The person acting out has to deal with their stuff so they can actually show up and be part of the we. But it still is a we problem. It's a we because it's influencing us. It's influencing my desire to get close to you. It's influencing how I see you or perceive you and influence. And in all honesty, it scares me. The we. I'm scared of we right now because of your actions. And so we do have a problem. This relationship has a problem. And I can't. There's parts of this I can't do. You're going to need to figure those issues out because I can't do that part. But I can tell you when you're acting that way, I am going to pull back and I am going to be protective because I don't feel safe. It doesn't mean I don't care about you. It doesn't mean I don't love you. But the we is stronger when we deal with our own stuff. And so, yes, it's actually not either or, it's actually both. And I have to deal with my stuff, you have to do with your stuff. And then we have an issue that we need to figure out how to communicate effectively. So I see it both not.

So it's the coupleship has the problem.

Yeah, yeah.

Because I do think it's tricky and it's nuanced right here. Traditional 12 step language usually says that the partner, there's something wrong with the partner because they're in this relationship where there may be something going on that's been going on for 25 years that they didn't know about. And so I know that that language can get a little bit dicey even to call it like the we, because it's like, no, I didn't have this problem. I've been doing everything that I can for it. But what I'm hearing you say with that, that I'm just wanting to clarify is, yeah, our relationship has a problem because it's not healthy right now. It's not in the state.

Right. So it is an issue that if I was the one acting out, I need to deal with it. That's the responsibility that We've been talking. That's my job. If I'm going to show up in this relationship, I need to understand my actions and how they're influencing our relationship, the we. Because again, I have to be a person who is as whole as possible to really have deep and true intimacy. Because if I'm not dealing with my stuff, I'm showing up. Half of me is still half of me. It's not the full me. And so I think that work that we do, self work that, that work that we've talked about throughout this podcast, we really have to look inside and say, how am I showing up in this relationship? And then the next step of this is really critical. That still doesn't solve the we. We still have to learn how to communicate. We still have to learn how to solve these issues and problems, and we still have to learn how to communicate with compassion and kindness and caring. Again, we can be so much better in our relationships. My biggest concern is that we think that somehow if, if a person stops their sexual behavior or resolves their betrayal trauma, that somehow we're going to have a better relationship. And the assumption there, it just is mind boggling to me. Recovery and overcoming betrayal does not mean, you know how to be relational. It just doesn't. So learning how to be in a relationship and how to communicate and how to have empathy and compassion and love and kindness and caring and that we're both committed to personal growth. That's when relationships flourish.

I love that. I think as, as you mentioned, that compassion. I'm so glad you brought that up because that's one concept that I want to make sure that we talk about. In his book, Never Split the Difference, Chris Voss talks about, he was a.

Former FBI agent.

Thank you. Yes. He was a terrorist negotiator, hostage negotiator. One of the things that he talks about is before he goes into a conflict situation, especially with somebody where he's trying to diffuse a situation, he talks about always taking a minute and trying to put himself in that other person's shoes and trying to have some compassion. Where they might be in this moment, what they might be feeling, what they might be experiencing, like their stress levels, their fears, what's going on for them. And I know that sometimes that feels like a really big ask or it can feel like a really big ask. When I ready to. I've got my guns blazing and I've got my unmet need that I'm trying to address. But if we can slow down and have compassion and, and I think with that Also, there's one other part of this that I have seen be so powerful is gratitude, being able to acknowledge something positive about my partner. Say, oh, I noticed that you filled up the gas tank last night. Thank you. That was. I. I really appreciate that. I was on low and I was running on fumes, and I got in the car today and I saw there was gas there. Thank you. Just those simple acknowledgments of gratitude, I think are so helpful because so many times we forget those in our relationships, and they carry a lot of weight.

You know, what I appreciate about that is we easily, and I think we do, we take each other for granted, and of course we do, because we interact day to day. You do a thousand things, and your spouse does a thousand things. Just functioning day to day, whether that's paying bills or taking out the garbage or sweeping the floor or going to the grocery store. We take each other for granted. And really, when we're hurting, it's easy for us to see our partner as the enemy. The longer we see each other as the enemy, the more disconnected we are, the harder this rupture is. It's harder to repair. And then at the end of the day, we're not taking personal responsibility because you broke this, you need to fix it. But that rebuilding process is. I love the concept of expressing gratitude. I wonder how we would be in relationships if we frequently just paused and think or thought to ourselves, what were some of the things that my spouse today that I could just express appreciation for? Thanks for doing the laundry or thanks for taking out the garbage. Thanks for vacuuming. Thanks for helping with the dishes. Thanks for dinner. Thank you for just being here today. And just this conversation has been really mean. I think, Marianne, when we stop and reflect, we could probably find so many things every day that our spouse or partner does that we could just say, thank you, thank you, thank you.

He was just, thanks for being in my life. Thanks for being here when I wake up. Thanks for getting up this morning and going to work or taking the dog out or whatever it is. There's so much there that we miss, I think. And when we hear that our partner appreciates us, there's a power there. I'm putting my hands out, going, I don't know how to calculate it. It's just this incredible power that we. We hear affirmations and we feel valued by a partner. It reciprocates. Oh, my positive regard for you just went up. Oh, you saw me.

So my wife and I just celebrated our 31st wedding anniversary. We spent some time in Southern California and we were walking on the beaches and having some really good meals and just had some really good time just to communicate. I don't remember the last time that it was just the two of us. But what I can say, it's interesting because I said to my wife, okay, so what's that? What does the next 30 years of our lives together look like? What do we want to do? What do we want to create? There's a concept there that I've really been thinking about, and that is the creation. See, we are the authors of the intimacy in our lives. Nobody else is writing the script. This is not their job. It's our job. And so every day we have the opportunity to write a script of what this relationship is going to look like. And we can do it from a place of, I want to show up and be the best me. I want to be a great spouse. And when we take that mindset, then really our relationships are easier. And the reason why is because our mindset is, I want to be good. And so when I was talking with my wife about, you know, what do the next 30 years look like? You know, it's like we were brainstorming, okay, what. What do we want to do? We still have two children at home that will be, you know, another two or three years before. Before they leave home. But then what? What's it like being an empty nester? I know what it's like being a grandpa. And that is absolutely delightful and fun. And so that's the fun part. We get to be grandparents together, but still we get the opportunity to create. What are we going to create? What do we want to do together? And that's a work in progress. But notice the shift away from this conflict intention into what are we creating? And to me, that's how we're going to develop. The intimacy in our marriage is we're going to continue creating together. That's the rebuilding it part. Because, yes, you can ask my wife. And I guarantee you we've had our conflicts, we've had our challenges, we've had our ruptures, we've had to repair. And we do it on a regular basis because we have differences. And in our most important relationships, we need to spend the most time figuring out how to truly understand each other.

I think I'll circle that back around. Dr. Skinner, first of all, that's amazing. Thank you so much for what you shared. 31 years is something that we don't hear about very often these days. And that. That's you're a testament to what you teach. And so thank you for sharing that. I do think it comes back around to the vulnerability of how deep are we willing to be aware of ourselves and to let other people in, to let other people see us. I was talking with my husband today about a relationship he has with somebody, and they've been working together, doing some activities, and it's been years, multiple years. And I said, what's your relationship like with that person? Some relationships sometimes are just superficial, and that comes from not being vulnerable, not being willing or able to show up in the relationship, or not wanting to invest. But what you're talking about, this is an investment. It's something that we have to look at and say, how do we figure this out? What do we do with this? It's very intentional, is what I heard you talking about. Or intentionally planning and trying to figure this out and being able to be vulnerable. What I heard you also talking about is the dreams, the hopes. When you talk about, like, the different levels of intimacy, you're. What I heard you talking about, the. This is the hopes and dreams of what do we want to do? How do we do this?

Yeah. So, Marianne, really simple quote. Human intimacy doesn't happen on autopilot. It just can't. Right. It requires time and energy. A few years ago, a friend of mine, Wally Goddard, he was a. He taught a distance education university down south. And he and I did a. Back then, it was Internet radio. We did a series together, and he really had a great example. He said, really, marriage is like a garden. You know, it's going to have weeds, but as you prepare the rose, you're going to have to dig holes and you're going to have to water it. And then as the seeds begin to grow, you're going to have to watch out for the weeds. You're going to have to continue to water it, and then you're going to have to watch out for animals. And you might need to put a fence around it, protect what you have here, but you're going to need to continue. You can't let a garden just go, because if you let it go, the weeds are going to take over. The animals are gonna come in and eat the vegetables and whatever it is. And if it has no water, the vines will die and it won't grow. And I think it's such a powerful metaphor of all the ways that we can take care of a garden. And that's what I mean. Human intimacy does not happen on autopilot. It needs attention and our friend Brett Williams actually talks about love is attention, giving attention to each other, giving attention to what matters the most. And when we give attention to what matters the most, that's when we thrive.

I want to just really be very plain that every relationship has ruptures. There's nothing wrong with the relationship when it has ruptures. What I mean by ruptures, at least, is that we have disagreements, that we see the world in different ways, that we're not on the same page, that we have expectations. That is so normal because we are so different. And rupture is inevitable. If we are having a relationship where we're not having rupture, for me, that's a red flag. That means somebody's not showing up. That means somebody's not saying, huh, I see things a little bit differently. That means that there's maybe some avoidance that's going on, because everything isn't only one lens. But rupture is inevitable. It's all about how we are able to come back and repair and work on that relationship. And I think it is through that responsibility of showing up as we are, where we are, being kind and having a lot of compassion for ourselves, for others. And I love what you added to that, like that rebuilding. And, you know, I was in a training a couple years ago. Patrick Kearns was doing the training, and one of his support people, they'd been each other's support for 30, 40 years, something like that, and they had a long history together, but he was there as well. And he. I remember he piped up and he said, you know, I had an affair about 40 years ago, and it was the best thing I did for our relationship. And I remember hearing that and going, Dr. Skinner, I was like, did he just say what I thought he said? And he said, what it did was it made us have to figure out how to. We had to learn how to communicate, we had to learn how to see ourselves, and we had to learn how to work together. And he said, this last 40 years, it's been amazing. It's been beautiful. But that conflict, that rupture that they had, that brought them to this screeching halt of what are we doing and where are we going? And it forced them to say, we're evaluating this relationship. We want it, and now we've got to figure out how to do this in a better way that's not going to hurt each other. And so for him, in, you know, 40 years of hindsight, he can say that was not that he was saying the betrayal and the affair was a blessing, but that rupture and the change and the repair and that rebuilding in his relationship, he was so, so grateful for.

What's interesting about that. And I think we've heard this in really, in couples who. Who begin to. Again, I call it a maturing process. You know, why are we in this relationship? What does it mean to us? Am I. Am I really committed to making this as good as it can be? Because I'm afraid that we're living far below our relationship potential in so many of our relationships. And I think the reason why is because it's our own fears. It's our own stuff. I think that's that responsibility that we have to take. His partner, wife could have said, no, I'm not going to do this. I'm done. I'm done. But something about that relationship, they begin to communicate. They begin to probably look a lot deeper inside of what does this mean to me? And the fears that they had overcome. And then years. It probably took years to really begin to understand. And then there's this other part of this relationship where you begin to sink deeper roots into. I understand you now. I understand us. And we understand us. And it is now that new we that's been created. And I think that. That, Marianne, is a great example of something that. No, if you ask them, they'd say, yeah, that was probably the best thing for our marriage. Would we want it to wish it on anybody? No, but we are better. We are better as a couple. And that's what I've heard over and over with couples who do this process. And the process is not easy, but the ruptures are going to occur. And this we have to repair, and we have to work to repair. If we've done something wrong, we need to do our best to overcome it and stop the behaviors. And then the other part of it is, yes, we need to take that responsibility, and then we get to have the fun. Let's go rebuild this thing and make it as beautiful as we can. All right, those are my final thoughts. Marianne, always delightful to be with you, and thank you to our listeners. One more plug. If you have not yet pushed like or shared this with somebody, can I give you the challenge this week? Marianne and I do this each week because we want to help you have better relationships. And please help us spread the word. If you're finding benefit from our podcast.

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