Safety: The One Thing You Have to Have to Create Human Intimacy (Episode #15)

On behalf of me and Marianne Michaelis, I'd like to thank you for being a listener of our Human Intimacy Podcast this year. It's always a privilege to spend time with you and I want to express my deep gratitude. If you are ready to take your healing and recovery to the next level, you're ready to deepen your healing and strengthen your connection and gain real tools for meaningful change. I invite you to join us and other Experts at the 2nd Annual Human Intimacy Conference where myself, Marianne and many other leading experts will come together for powerful teaching, live question and answer sessions and provide insightful pre conference conversations to help you get the most out of your conference experience. And right now, you can save 50% when you register before December 31st. Please don't miss this opportunity. Visit human intimacy.com and reserve your spot today. There's something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh, something's around you. Welcome to the Human intimacy podcast. I'm Dr. Kevin Skinner with my friend and co host, Amy Andrus. Amy, how are you today?

I'm doing so well, thank you for asking.

Well, I know that you've got a busy month ahead with graduations and children getting married. We both have children getting married and so it's go time, right?

Yes. Just don't bring me to tears talking about how quickly they grow up. Just, let's just stay away from that today, okay?

I won't. I won't bring that up. But just don't blink because the children that we have grow up way too fast. Right?

I know.

Yeah. All right. To our listeners, I want to introduce the topic today that is really the foundation of all human intimacy. In fact, I often say that with it, without this one thing, human intimacy is not possible. Can you guess what that one thing is now? I know you can, Amy. I was waiting for the pause, but here's the thing. Safety is actually what our body has to have. Not needs. It has to have safety in order for us to truly bond and connect with the people around us. So today I want to talk about what safety actually means. And we're going to talk about it from a physiological perspective. And then we're going to talk about it, how it applies in our relationships, in all of our relationships. So, Amy, initial thoughts on this topic.

Well, I love the way you just broke that down because, you know, one of the first, we're in working with clients and we bring up safety. You can see this blank deer in the headlights with. I don't. I don't I don't even know what does safety, what does safety mean?

So, yeah, so, so I'm going to do it. I'm going to start off with a, from a biological perspective, our body's perspective, and I'm going to use a phrase that Dr. Stephen Porges, he's the founder of the polyvagal theory. Now don't get lost in the words polyvagal.

It's a scary word.

It's a scary word. And I'm now going to introduce another scary word called neuroception. But as I define it, it will actually make sense to you. So neuroception is what allows engagement, behavior, engagement in relationships to, to occur while disabling the mechanisms of defense. So, so really what happens when we go into any new environment? The first thing that our body does, it asks a question. Am I safe? Am I safe? So then neuroception then is to switch effectively from our defensive, fight, flight or freeze to social engagement strategies. Our nervous system, your body, my body, everybody's body has to do something. It has to determine the risk, assess the risk. And then if the environment looks safe, only if it looks safe, do we inhibit our primitive defense reactions to fight, flee or freeze. Now I, I know that may be a lot, but let's unpack it. We go into a new environment. The first thing our body does is it says, am I safe here? If I'm safe, then I can socially bond. But if I'm not safe, then I'm either going to fight, I'm going to flee, I want to leave, or in very traumatic or difficult circumstances, I absolutely freeze, I shut down. So safety then, if we just look at it from a neurobiological perspective, our body has a built in mechanism that says am I safe? Oh, I do feel safe here. Now I can socially bond. Social bonding, conversation, eye contact, facial expression, the way we engage with each other, that's really how our body is saying I'm safe with you. And so our body language actually is sending a message to other people that I feel safe or I don't feel safe.

That's a great description. I have so many, so many questions. When you know, our, and our, our central nervous system searching for safety then is interacting with all of the nervous systems around us, entering a space. Right, right. And so I'm wondering, you know, I have a really anxious client who is going to walk into an environment and looking for cues of safety. And then how does one, if they're looking for cues of safety and they feel like, okay, I'm safe, but Then they bump up against someone else who's feeling really dysregulated and unsafe. How do, how do we operate together as social beings in spaces when we all have nervous systems reacting to one another?

That is such an interesting question because we live in a culture, as you say, we're very anxious people today. And so my body language, my message to you is, I'm a little bit anxious. How are you then reading me? Well, you may be reading me like, I can't, I don't know. What, what are you, what are you anxious about? We're not actually saying it, we're feeling it, we're sensing it. And I read a study that at any given time there, about one in five of us experience social anxiety and, and some form of anxiety. And Even up to 40% in some situations in their life will have an social anxiety or some other form of anxiety. So we are sending these messages really, am I safe? Am I not?

And we're all, we're all impacting one another all the time. And I think it's, I, I think it's interesting since co as well, when no one felt safe and I think probably the anxiety, how much it's risen since then, because what are our cues for safety? You know, red dots on the ground, you know, it's Anyway, Right?

Yeah. And let me. So taking off from this, then we go into a social environment not knowing if we're safe or not. And ultimately then we have to learn to trust our own detection system. But when we've experienced some version of life traumas, Right. It could any, any, anything life trauma where I begin to question people, am I safe here? Am I safe here? Am I not safe here? And when we can't tell if we're safe, then we're naturally going to be more hesitant to connect and we're going to hold back.

Right.

And now we start entering into the realm of confusion. I don't know who's safe and I don't know who is safe. And ultimately then when we have people, and this is why, if we're really going to create a culture with human intimacy, which is my deepest desire for us to be better as a culture, then we have to be safe ourselves. And we have to create an environment that opens up meaningful conversations and allows us to bond in the way that we're designed to bond.

Absolutely. And that comes back to us understanding our own central nervous system and being able to regulate that so we can operate in that space of connecting with others to create those, those intimacies and Connections, right?

Yeah. And let's go to a very specific example. So I, I'm a, a teenager and I'm going into school. And I know again, if I'm a parent here, I'm absolutely preparing my child. Look, you're going to feel anxious, you're going to feel nervous in this new environment.

Okay, I have to interject something there.

Yeah, go.

Even as the parent, our own anxiety comes in, talking about our own junior high, you know, where it's like, okay, hold on, junior high.

Deep breaths, deep breaths. You're going to be okay. Right?

That anyone ever loves their junior high, you know?

Well, but as we prepare, imagine with me, I've actually done this with superintendents from different school districts. In fact, I was in Idaho not long ago and I said, what would happen if on the very first day we had your influencers, the people who are kind, the people who are caring, who were standing at the door, opening, opening it up for everybody and saying, hey, we're glad you're here, welcome to junior high.

Right.

I said, what would happen if we actually intentionally, in crucial, difficult moments, we had people who could do those types of things to welcome people. What would happen? And I again, I think about simple things. Walmart. Welcome to Walmart. What is that?

Well, that's that bridge of connection. You're safe here, right? We have, we welcome you, we welcome you.

And so in healthy relationships, we create an environment where people are safe with us. Now it's an interesting question. How easy do I make it for others to feel comfortable in my presence.

My energy and from my experience, and I would want to ask you from your clinical experience, these questions are not questions that we even really are ever asked or that we really have thought about to be able to give the answer to that.

That's right. That's right. We don't think about these types of things because we just live life. But if we were to slow down and we were to ask ourselves the question, am I, am I creating a safe environment where people around me are comfortable around me? Well, that's, that's a self reflective question. Now the next part of that is, am I with people or am I with people who are also creating an environment where we want to be, where I want to be?

Right.

And what ultimately happens. Let's just take divorce for example. That's something that, you know, you, we've, you and I have talked about. We have the rebuild you'd life after divorce course on our site. Well, at the end of the day, when people go through a Divorce. There's a reason why they no longer feel safe in the presence of their partner or they no longer are allowing themselves to connect because of something that's occurred.

Right.

So it's our body's natural defense mechanism to protect itself.

Right.

Don't feel safe. Then I'm going to pull back and I'm going to hold back. Now I want to talk about this. When we sense that people are pulling back from us, some people, some of us are insecure. And so we safety seek by trying to force people to want to be with us.

And especially we see, I don't know, with couples, one partner starts to pull away and the other feels that what's happening. Afraid. Either them pull away too, or, or freak out and draw close. Like you were talking about Stu Johnson's work last week.

Yeah. And one of the things with Sue Johnson, I want to give this quote. This is just. I don't know. I don't know how else to say it. Sue Johnson, is she, she's shocked.

Her accent. Can you try to do that?

I can't even close.

I won't put you on the spot.

I, I can't even close. But I, I just. One of the things that she taught us that is so valuable is that we are these attachment bonds. We, we seek it. And yet because of life experiences, we often hold back or pull back and we don't pursue the intimacy that we long for because we struggle with knowing who's safe. I have actually heard people say, I don't, I can't determine who's safe. So I'm not even going to try.

No.

Oh, and my heart hurts there.

Oh.

Because we need, we need a culture where safety. And again, let's look at this not just from the neurobiological perspective. Let's look at what safety looks like in, in and compassionate way. One of the interesting side notes I put on this topic, it's interesting it referred to the steps for compassion as a, as associated with safety. And, and so first of all, we go into an environment and if the environment is safe or, or we're, we're going to take some risks. What if we could create a safe environment by our actions? Right. So I could give you a compliment. I could say something kind. I could hold a door for you. I could smile. I could ask you a question, Amy, tell me a little bit about what's going on in your life right now.

And, and I love, I love the examples because we ask a really big question. You know, do others feel safe in our presence? And yet those examples are so small, but can be so meaningful. Just a smile and a, a compliment. You know, those examples, they, they're so small but they make such a difference with other others feelings safe in our presence. Just Right.

Yeah. And it's interestingly enough, it's our eye contact, it is a smile. It's using the basic needs that we had of his children and it's extending them throughout our life. Because think about it. When's the last time somebody really helped you feel safe in a difficult environment or helped you feel welcome in a difficult, difficult environment?

And it's so it, it continues to blow my mind being able to do the intensives with you to, to continually come back to basic. Just those basic needs with eye contact and really seeing and tone of voice and. Right.

Yeah. Because they all matter. Again, if you, if you haven't, if you're not familiar with our basic needs concept, this is something that my friend Dan Oaks, he's a friend From Arizona, also Dr. Sue Johnson, some of her attachment model and Stephen Porges. I. You mix all of these together and you have an incredible attachment model that really begins in our infancy where the key parts of a child, child's need are, is eye contact, facial expression and our tone of voice. And I want to talk about tone of voice for a second safety. We really, our ears can detect whether someone is in a absolute, they want to connect or whether they're frustrated. For example, when I often use is what do we, what tone, pitch or tone do we use with an infant?

Right.

And I've said okay, Amy, give me, give me, give me the Gucci Gucci goo. From a mother's perspective. Right? How do we do that, Amy? You can do it.

You know, you do it too. A father of eight, I, I witnessed you show pictures of your grandchildren. But really, you know, the good. We're looking and we're mimicking and, but we're talking, you know, not so much quiet but in, in tones that you can read their expression of what, what they are. The feedback of.

So funny story here I, I was doing a presentation and I didn't know it, but there was a dog in the audience and I was doing the Gucci Gucci goo. I said okay, somebody give me the, the higher pitched Gucci Gucci goo. And somebody the audience Gucci coochie coo, you know, and, and I said okay, but what we wouldn't do is go Gucci Gucci goo. And she said the dog looked around like, like do I have to protect? And, and it Was literally just my.

The dog, the dog. But it is that. Oh, you are so beautiful. Oh, look at the Gucci. Gucci goo.

Right? And so our tone of voice and, and so we go through tone of voice and we go through our body language. Like what messages are we sending? Healthy touch. These are the most basic needs. And when we have them, we can connect.

And that's what I appreciate. You know, we, we begin with a really not, not scary to you anymore, but polyvagal, which feels like such a big word. And then you break it down into its most simple form. And it's basic.

We introduce. Yeah, we introduce neuroception, Our body's ability to determine whether we're safe or not. And then we introduce the basic needs, which are really eye contact, facial expression, tone of voice, our body language, healthy touch, being nourished. And we put this together. And when we have those, our body goes, oh, but show me somebody who hasn't had a smile, hasn't had physical touch. They, they're not experiencing these basic needs. And I will probably show you somebody dealing with depression or anxiety because they don't feel socially bonded, as Sue Johnson taught us, that social connection and looking.

At the central nervous system, that all of those are symptoms and manifestations of that lack of that internal regulation.

Yeah, absolutely. So I guess what I want to introduce and hopefully expand on is this concept of as human beings, we long for human connection. And yet unless we create safety and, and create an environment of safety around us, then we'll be on the defense, we'll be protecting ourselves. Our autonomic nervous system will be in fight or flight. And we will not be able to connect or bond the way that we are designed to bond. That is why every behavior that takes us away from attachment, any form of addiction, any form of anger, aggression, put downs, criticism, anything that is demeaning, that harms another person will naturally prevent human intimacy, human connection.

So, Dr. Skinner, I want to ask you a question that I know because we've, you know, we've been working together long enough. And I think most of our clients ask this question. Is it possible that I can learn to feel, to feel safe within myself even if my relationship is not. I don't feel safety from my partner.

Yeah, and two parts there. My partner may not be able to give it to me because they've got to deal with their own stuff, or they're dealing with their own stuff, or maybe they're not dealing with their own stuff. So I may not. I can't expect that I will feel physiologically safe in this relationship. But can I find a place of safety? That's, that's a different question. And the answer to that is yes, you find it in your own space, your own. I'm going to refer to it as a sacred space where I can do a meditation, where I can do a mindful breathing exercise, and I can bring my autonomic nervous system into a place of calmness. And ideally I would also have a friend or somebody that is there for me because I love the quote by Thich Nhat Hanh. Everybody needs somebody. And so whether that's a parent, whether that is a friend, whether that's just somebody who's healthy for you, then, then in that relationship we do find safety. And interestingly enough, the research across the board shows that people heal from divorce, people heal from trauma, people heal from addictions. When they have a somebody or some people, they're people.

I love being able to teach that concept. You taught that to me more than you know, more than a decade ago. Where it's Amy, you can, you know, you, your relationship might not give you that safety, but you can find that through walking and connecting with nature and being in your body and being with, just speaking with, you know. So I, I want to just emphasize that a lot of our clients are looking at this other person is if, if I don't feel safe with this other person, it's either divorce or it's be alone. And it's. I, they. It is. You can find that safety within yourself. And you have to. I think each, every individual has to.

Well, and I want to now talk about it. When we are not safe, then our body's autonomic nervous system is in the fight orf flight response, which normally would suggest that we're going to be getting an increase in adrenaline or cortisol because our body is in a response to a threat. Right. And when we're in response to a threat, we're naturally going to pull back. We're naturally going to protect ourselves. The consequence of that is I'm not going to have good health over time if it's not addressed. Because adrenaline and cortisol are not designed to be long term substances that our body continuously produces. We'll eventually reduce those and lower them to the point where our body is not performing the way it could or can even in stressful situations because our body is worn out and depleted.

It's, it's driving a car without ever having an oil change and there's a force quit that will happen in. Right.

And and we've seen that with our clients struggling with health issues and a variety of challenges. And ultimately, what I want to say to everybody is it is imperative that we find a way for us to calm our mind and our bodies. When we do intensives, we have a yoga experience in the morning. We have mindfulness in the afternoon, because we know that when they come, we're going to be talking about some of the most painful, difficult experiences and help them navigate and work through those challenges. I mean, we just finished this intensive, and I'll tell you what, I'm. I'm so impressed with the work that people come to do.

It's so brave, isn't it? Every time I marvel at the courage that. The pain that they are in and the amount of, you know, fight, orf flight or just complete hopelessness. And what starts with the pulling away results in pulling away from everyone. So where they feel completely alone and the courage then it takes to say, okay, I'm going to completely move toward and come to an intensive end and do yoga and do mindfulness and things I've never done. It is so. It's. I marvel at that every time.

Yeah. And what's interesting to me is that component of it. When we, at the end of every intensive, we do, we have individuals draw without words or letters what they've experienced. And almost inevitably there is at least one or more person who draws something about the mindfulness or the meditation, because what they've experienced is a calming of their nerves. And that is what, I guess I'm hoping that everybody will understand. Human intimacy is contingent upon us feeling internally safe with self and then finding our people who are. We are with whom we are safe.

So people listening right now, and they're saying, okay, Dr. Skinner, I understand. I. I really need to befriend and calm my nervous system. And what are just some. What are some ways I can. I can start doing that right now.

Yeah. So let's go out into nature. Let's. Let's observe the environment. Let's take off our shoes and be on the grass. There's a science behind that one. It's called earthing. I'm not. I'm not a. I'm not a promoter of this or I'm not being paid for this. But I'll be honest with you. Earthing is incredible. Take off your shoes. Unless you're in the south, where there's chiggers, don't do that, because those will not be good for your skin and your body. But in general, take off your Shoes, walk, bare feet on your grass and go to the beach, put your feet in the sand and what you'll find is your body starts to relax. And that's just almost inevitable. Go up in the mountains, go for a hike, do some deep breathing, do a mindful meditation and interestingly enough, have a meaningful conversation with somebody who you connect to. All of these things have been, it's, it's self regulation. Those are the first examples. And then co regulation is where we do it with other people and that's.

What we get to witness. This past intensive, you know, Wednesday to Friday and I was able to be there Thursday and one of the women said, Amy, I went outside and I saw blossoms. And I haven't noticed anything in nature. I don't remember the length of time, but a really, really, really long time. And you know, that's where. Looking for those, they're all right around us. And I think, you know, going to our nervous system, we are wired to look at, look at the. Maybe more dangers, but practicing also, I think they're equally powerful. Looking for, you know, Deb Dana. The glimmers. Looking for those that all the things around us that calm our nervous system and making that a practice to.

Yeah, I love the way you just said that. Making it a practice because we're building a muscle. Literally. If you find that you have a hard time calming your racing mind, practicing these things is like lifting weights if you were a weightlifter or going on a jog on a regular basis. It's building the muscle so your body learns to relax. There's something that we talk about is coherent breathing and it is getting a deep breath where your body really, the inhalation, the exhalation is a, is a rhythm that is coherent. And when you're in coherency, your body feels better. And when we work with people with anxiety and other mental health challenges, their breathing has altered and changed and their body literally is in this protective, I don't know, stance.

Almost always even your body language going there, you know, it's like tensing.

Yeah. If you, if you were watching this, you can see my hands go up.

Going into that state of like, okay, muscles tighten and prepare to fight. And practicing looking for those beautiful glimmers around us. And you know, Thursday I was telling the women, go outside, notice what do you see? Look up, listen what you hear, you know, what do you, what do you feed. Just coming back to that, how powerful that is and practicing that.

And these are really simple things to say. Developing the habit of it is Actually, the gift you give to yourself.

Yep.

The gift you give to yourself is to say, I am going to choose to find a safe environment where my body and my mind can relax and my relationships around me. If we're in constant tension and conflict, our body has a hard time healing.

Right.

And so it is essential that we find that space. And that is a personal boundary. I choose to live in a world where I feel safe and I don't feel threatened by other people.

And it's interesting when just being in the space with our clients, you know, they're looking at us and it's. I promise if you do these things and it's okay, I'll trust you. And then they dip in. They have the experience. But then, like you say, it's the remembering to practice again and again. And giving ourselves that. That time and space. And what's interesting, just for the mothers, Dr. Skinner teaching me so long ago. All right, Amy. You're not going to be okay for your children. You know, you knew how to my. The mama bear. What we will do for ourselves. Sometimes it's. It requires thinking about those around us. But I remember you saying to me, you taking these steps is going to influence the way you mother. And it's going to change the lives of your children. And thinking of. Thinking of that purpose rather than. I need to do this for me. Because sometimes we're not really good at that at first.

Well. And I think that because it feels selfish, I'm being selfish. In reality, a bucket without water can't give anybody water.

I know.

When we're anxious, we use the basic exercise. It's called the basic exercise. You can type it in in Google. Just type in the basic exercise. It's about a three minute exercise. It actually increases the vagal break and helps you relax the body. What we're really saying is all of these things help us access the ventral vagal connection. Now, again, I don't want to overwhelm you with words, but the ventral vag, central heart. Vagus is the longest cranial nerve in our body. And it in essence, it is the break of the body. And when we access it, our body can feel in a state, a calmer state. And the more we access it, the more we're going to feel in control of our emotions and we're going to feel safer. And so accessing the ventral vagal connection. Head heart connection, deep breathing, going for a walk, calming our mind. The basic exercise accesses the vagus nerve and helps us, so to speak, push on the brakes when we feel anxious.

And. I mean, you just responded with ventral vagal with something so simple, the basic exercise, you know, So I kind of. I kind of love. It's called the basic exercise.

I. I do. I do, too, as well. Now, I. I want to do one more thing for our listeners. If you are struggling with this concept of safety, and you're like, okay, how. How do I implement this in a difficult or in my own life? Because I've really felt traumatized or I felt overwhelmed by emotions, just start small. Not asking you to change the world in a day. Start with a basic exercise. Or you might simply just go outside, take a few deep breaths, and say, I'm here. What is here for me to see? Look at the flowers. Look at the trees.

Listen to the birds.

Oh, this time of the year is absolutely beautiful. So our invitation is to create a safe environment. Safety begins with us. It also can be what we do to give others gifts. Be that safe person. Be the peop. Be the person that others come to because you are safe. If you can do that. If we can do that, then our society gets better. We become more intimate human beings, and that should be our goal. All right, but, Amy, what would you like to conclude with today?

Oh, we are relational beings, and everything is. We're not meant to be isolated and alone, and we're meant to be connected to one another. And it is. It's. That's what makes life. It's the meaning of everything, our connections that we have with others. And I love everything that you're doing with human intimacy to be able to just increase those connections with everyone around us. I did have a quote. I love Jane Austin, and she said, we all have a better guide in ourselves if we would attend. Listen to it than any other person can be. And that's something that is. You always say, listen to your own nervous system. Listen to that. Pay attention to it.

Right, Absolutely.

Start to nurture it.

All right. To our listeners, thank you for your time. It has been absolutely delightful being with you. I just love some of the opportunities that we're getting the podcast and then in our intensives, and it's just so much fun interacting with you. Thank you for taking the time to listen to this podcast. Please share it with your friends, your family members, your pets, whoever else will listen.

Your pets and others.

That's right. That's right. All right, thank you so much, Amy, for your time today. Such a blessing to have you with me.

Thank you.

All right, take care.

Bye bye.