Seeing Our Blind Spots: Why We Make the Choices We Do (Episode #93)

There's something about you that I can't.

Help but smile when you smile and.

Laugh when you laugh. Something surrounds. Welcome to the human intimacy podcast, Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Michaelis, licensed clinical social worker. So, Marianne, I don't even dare ask how you're doing today.

You know, Dr. Skinner, a couple days ago, I lost my voice. So I'm grateful to have a little bit of a voice back. And, yes, you know, it was. Life just kind of hits you. And it's interesting to me how stressors can pile up and how they can really take such a big toll on.

The immune system and just tired, fatigue, stress. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, Mary, my. My hope is that you get feeling better soon, and I thank you for having the courage to join today and being willing to do this. So thank you.

I'm gonna. I'm gonna let you do more talking today. So.

All right, so today's topic is. Is something that I have been thinking a lot about, Marianne. And the reason why is because I have had so many people in the last few months come to my office, and they've done something that they regret deeply. In many situations, they've hurt their spouse through their sexual behaviors, or they've made other decisions that have hurt people. And as I've sat with them and I'm trying to understand their story, I often hear statements like, I don't even know how I got to that space. How did I get to that place where I hurt the person that I care about and I love the most? Or how did I get to the place where I just didn't? I wasn't even thinking. And to me, Marianne, that is a question I wish we could address before it's a problem, not after. And so today, I want to talk about the choices that we make and why we make the choices we do. Let me give another example of this, Marianne. I often ask somebody who had been betrayed or somebody who's trying to make an important decision regarding their relationship, how are you going to make this decision? What are the variables or what are the things that you're looking for as you make this incredibly important decision? Far too often, Marianne, I hear people say, I don't know how to do this. So my hope is today to really look at the choices that we're making and invite our listeners to reflect on how they're making decisions. Because I think it's such an important part of our lives that I'm not sure we're actually slowing down enough to make such incredibly important decisions, and even having a roadmap of how to make those decisions.

This week I have been working on our online course for Rise, hope and healing after sexual betrayal. And this week I've been working on. One of the exercises we've got in there is looking at music and the power of music. Songs about betrayal trauma, the different phases of betrayal trauma. And it was just interesting. There's a lot of songs about. There's one called Bust your Windows. I'd never heard it before, but the whole thing's about a woman who'd been betrayed who, like, super destructive, doing super, super destructive things because of her pain. And what I often see is, oftentimes I'll see a betrayed partner have a lot of shame and a lot of pain about. I found out that I'd been betrayed and then I did this thing that there's a lot of shame about, there's a lot of regret about. And so I think as we start this conversation, it's really important to look at what, in the language of ifs, internal family systems, we call firefighters. And our firefighters are parts of us. I think they're the subconscious ones that aren't thinking clearly. If my house is burning down a fire, a fireman doesn't really care about my really expensive painting, doesn't really care about my really expensive piano or anything that I've got in my house. All they care about is putting out the fire. And so they come in and spray everything and they are just stopping the fire. And I think in this context, to make sure that we're addressing that, because there is oftentimes a subconscious part of us that comes out that acts almost on autopilot and it's very destructive. And oftentimes we have shame later on going like, I don't even know how I got there. I don't even know who that was. I don't even know, like, I was not thinking. It's such almost like a primal, most dissociative part of us that is just trying to stop the pain. So I want to make sure that we're addressing that today as well.

Yeah, and I think that's an important point because sometimes when I ask people the question whether they've been the one who had betrayed or they were betraying their spouse, when I ask the question, like, for example, when I've seen people who've been really angry at their spouse after discovering betrayal, and they do things that have been, as you said before, sometimes it's just downright like, I lost myself. I could not even rationally think. And when you hear Stories like that, Marianne, you realize that when the brain is flooded, you don't think about what you're experiencing. You just don't do that. And so you could be engaging in something, and it's so out of character. And I hear people say, that isn't who I've been, but I did those things. And so let me give a few examples of this. As we try to break it down, we become vulnerable for certain emotional expressions when we don't pause and reflect on why we're doing what we're doing. Marianne. And so when I talk with individuals and we start breaking down, let's say that you were the person who betrayed a spouse. And when you start breaking it down, there's always a story. And that story is often, you see people living in secrecy, hidden behaviors, but you also see a history that comes from a past that they have that maybe they've never opened up or talked about. You also see it in individuals who get into a situation where they're vulnerable because they don't have strong enough boundaries. See, I believe that the choices we make, when we don't have boundaries around our decisions, then we're more prone to make mistakes. And so I think, Marianne, personal boundaries. May I say it another way? When I know my core values and I choose to live consistent with them, it's easier for me to make choices. But I'm often going to make mistakes or cross over lines that I said I'd never do that. Because when I discover, Marianne, that I. How did I get there? It's almost always a boundary violation or going against my values that I thought I would never cross. And to me, that's because we didn't pause to reflect on our core values and then try to align all of our actions with those decisions.

Let me ask you a couple questions about that. And, Dr. Skinner, I want to hear your thoughts on that in regards to. Is this something that just hasn't developed from childhood? And it's just a continuation, like, I've never learned to. How to have those boundaries. And so I'm just going through my life not thinking about it, making disturbances.

Yeah. A few years ago, Marianne, I was talking with an individual, and he was trapped in unwanted pornography use and crossing over some other boundaries with some coworkers. I don't know. This is probably 10, 20 years ago. It was early, early in my career, and I heard this statement. I've heard it over and over in my life. It's like, how did I get there? How did I get to that space? And we Started going back in time and looking at teenage experiences. And as he started exploring some teen experiences, one of which was a big part of what we refer to as his arousal template. And his arousal template was truly related to being pursued. He wanted to see if pursuing people, if he could have them show interest in him. So he wanted them to, but he would initiate and then see if they would pursue him. But that was something that started early in his teen years. And so that, for him, was a lack of awareness. Because as we started looking at a childhood adolescent memory, it truly boiled down to this teenage boy who wanted to see if he could get attention because he felt like he didn't belong and he didn't fit. And then when he found how empowering it was to get attention, he had never put the two together, that he had just carried on that same pattern from his earlier life experiences. And so now he's an adult. He hasn't really talked about it, but as we break things down, we start to see how people construct their actions or behaviors outside of their considered values.

I'm also thinking about trauma reenactment, where I may be reenacting something that I experienced earlier in my childhood or adolescence that was traumatic, and I might be repeating that over and over and over again in my relationships. And I think it's important to understand this. Once again, this is not something that we are consciously, usually choosing. And as a therapist, when we hold that up and say, hold on a second, this is a pattern, it looks like I had this just with a client just recently where we were talking about a pattern with their husband and their mom. I said, wow, that looks like the same pattern that's happening with you and your husband. Kind of blew my client out of the water. Holy cow. I didn't even see that or realize it, but this is the exact same pattern, but being played out again. And I think it's important, understanding trauma or traumatic reenactments, that oftentimes our brain is actually trying to have a different outcome, a positive outcome, so that it can close it up and resolve it so we might find ourselves Sometimes I have clients who've been in multiple marriages, and the same patterns have happened over and over and over again. We have to start looking, what are the patterns? And is there some traumatic reenactment that we need to start working on so this doesn't continue to happen?

Yeah. And so what we're describing here, Marianne, is I think we're trying to identify blind spots, the spots that we just can't see that we're either reenacting something, maybe from childhood, as you mentioned earlier, is that developmental that I get stuck at a certain age.

And.

And often it's because some event or events occurred to me and I am trying to create a different outcome, but usually I end up doing the same or similar things that happened or did at that age. So we can call that trauma repetition, which we could also go back to certain life experiences and say that arousal template began at that time, and I'm just continually acting out that arousal template. So I guess the point here, Marianne, is individuals, when I talk with them, usually one of the core parts to change whether I'm the betrayed or whether I'm the betrayer is to understand the decisions that we're actually making and why those decisions are being made. And usually that we have to understand our past. Sometimes it's even generational past. Marianne. Because I've seen certain people say, well, that's just what we do in our relationships. We're committed no matter what, we're going to stay no matter what. And they don't even question it. And yet they tolerate things that are extremely hurtful, painful, even abusive at times, because that's just what's expected, and that's what we do.

Yeah, I have. I have two thoughts on that. First of all, I've. I've seen with my own adult children, one of my daughters will sometimes come to me and say, mom, you know, we'll be talking about something. She'll have a whole, this happened, this happened, this happened. And really, her actions were formed based on an interaction that we had. I won't remember. I won't remember it at all. She'll say, don't you remember you said this? And that's why I've been doing this? And I'll just be dumbfounded and, oh, I have no recollection whatsoever. That is not what I meant. And that was not healthy parenting or whatever. And I'm really sorry. One of the stories that I really appreciate sharing with my clients is there was a guy who was watching his wife prepare a ham, and she was cutting off the ends of it. And he was like, why? Why are you cutting off the ends of the ham? She's like, I don't know how you're supposed to do it. That's how I learned how to do it. And I said, well, you know, Mom's not here. Let's ask dad. And so they asked a couple other people, and basically what they found out is the reason why in the family you could always cut the Ends of the ham off before baking wasn't cause it was like a proper cooking technique. It was because the pan wasn't big enough for the ham. And this is something that got passed down generationally. When we make a ham, we always cut off the ends. It had no reason, it had no purpose, but it was something that had been learned, passed down.

Right. That's just what we do. Right. And to me, that, Marianne, is a really important concept. I think again, I talk about blind spots, but we can also live in patterns that we're so afraid to break that we just keep doing the same things. So to our listeners, I think my first question, if you were to reflect on, ask yourself the question, what decisions am I making in my life? Let's just start with self. Like, what patterns am I in that maybe I need to take away or I need to change some of the patterns that I've been engaged in, some of the behaviors, maybe even some of the thought patterns, some of the emotions. So I think first step, Marianne, is I have to look at what do I want to change and am I willing to make the effort to create the change that's necessary.

So I think, Dr. Skinner, as I'm hearing you say that, I'm thinking, if I were listening to this, I'd be like, these are blind spots. How would I, how would I find that? How would I? We're talking about insights and things we need to change, but if they're not things that we see or that we're aware of, how do I get there?

It's a great question. And my initial response is we have to pause and find what's uncomfortable to us. Like it could be a sleeping pattern. It could be that I'm using more substances than I think I should be, or I'm eating unhealthy foods, or I'm living in a secretive world where I have secret behaviors and I'm not talking with people. Again, I think if we all reflect on our lives, we could all identify things that we could do better. So I think it's, it's, it's an honest self evaluation of what am I doing that's uncomfortable or maybe should make me uncomfortable, but I'm afraid to change or I don't want to change. And I think that that's just an honest self evaluation.

Marianne, as you speak to that, what I really appreciate when I work with my clients, when we're working on boundary work, we have to start out looking at what am I not okay with, what are the things? So as you said, Things that feel uncomfortable. A lot of times we may have learned, oh, just suck it up, Just be stoic, Just keep on moving. But when we stop and say, hold on a second, that doesn't feel comfortable for me. What is it that I really need here? This is where we, at least with my clients, this is where we really start to create healthy boundaries. We start noticing, ooh, I feel uncomfortable about that. I could just ignore it, or I can start to figure out what's my need here that's not being met and make a healthy request.

There's a part here that I don't want to overlook. And that is, it requires an open mind, an open heart, whatever you want to call that, to say where I'm at, the way I'm acting. I don't want to continue to be this way. I don't want to continue doing those things. And I think that that starts off with just a truly a personal, self, Honest self evaluation. And if we overlook certain parts of our lives or certain things that we just. I'm. I'm not ready to give that up. Well, even then, we should be asking a question. Why am I not ready to change? This part of me and Marianne, when I have found individuals that have the greatest change, it's usually because they've started in a place like, I don't like where I've been, I don't like who I've been, or I don't like what I've been feeling. Something has to change in my life, and I've seen that from both a betrayer and a betrayed. But I've also seen that in people who've been using substances. I've seen it in people who have wanted to change jobs, but they've been so comfortable with their job that they're like, I don't know if I can. And yet when I see them take that step into the proverbial darkness in hopes that things can be better, all of a sudden there's more energy to it, because change is what we long for in our lives. But if we just keep doing the same things over and over again, we begin to feel hopeless. We get bored with our lives, maybe even depressed, because we're not creating change. And I really do believe this, Marianne. I think there's a part of us that strives to be better human beings. And when we're not tapping into that part of us that wants to be the better human being, I think we're more prone to depression and anxiety. And I think that's because we know we're not being that person that we could be.

I'm just reminded of years ago. I was living in Vail, Colorado, a little ski resort town. And I had a job I didn't love. And I noticed that I would stay really late on Sunday night because I didn't want to get up on Monday morning. And I remember having the conversation with my husband saying, like, I just don't want to. I don't want to get up. And I think being able to also have people around us who can help us through, who can help us reflect on things, is really important. When I shared this with my husband, he said, well, why don't you quit your job and find another job then? And the rule that I had in my mind was, I haven't been in this job that I'm in long enough. We had just moved there six, eight months before, and it's like, I've only been in this job maybe nine months. I can't have on my resume that I've only been in a job for nine months. There was this rule that I was living by, and what was fascinating is he was like, well, I'm gonna support you. I want you to be happy. But I remember talking to somebody from work, and she was like, bunny, in this town, this is a ski town, six months on a resume looks fantastic. And I didn't realize that, but I had my very riches. So I can't get a job if I haven't been here for a certain amount of time. But that wasn't the way of that area, of that culture, of that society.

I like what you're saying there, because you had an expectation, right? And that expectation was, it doesn't look good on a resume. So I've got to endure this. And sometimes when we recognize and really reflect on why we're doing what we're doing, we. We're like, why am I doing this? And it's nice. As you said, we need to talk with somebody and get another outside opinion. I think that's a really good idea. When we try to make decisions on our own, we typically think the same thoughts, feel the same feelings, and just keep doing the same things. Marianne. So I think it is a wise idea for us to step back, do our own best evaluation, and then explore. Here's some thoughts I have. Could you give me some just honest feedback on what I'm thinking or what I'm experiencing? To me, that is using someone else's brain to see into our world and how we're perceiving it. One other part There, Marianne, when we find that kind of self awareness and we've reached out for support, we still have our own fears because change creates a lot of fear. So, Marianne, the biggest part there after that is we have our own fears. What if I can't change? What if I can't do this? What if I can't overcome this unwanted sexual behavior? Or what if I can't do it on my own if I choose to leave this relationship? Or what if I hurt somebody in my decision making process? And so we often will get stuck or frozen in the process. And what I would want to say to that, if you have a fear, you still need to be exploring even your fear, like what is the worst thing that would happen and are there ways to alleviate that? A few years ago I was doing a training at a conference for therapists and we were talking about certain boundaries. An individual, as he was going through his personal boundaries, did this whole exercise, shared it with the group. And then he raised his hand and said, I've got to quit my job. And realizing his own awareness and his own boundaries, he's like, I'm not happy where I'm at. Why am I doing what I'm doing? But it was a reflective process. He shared it with a group. They supported and listened, provided a reflection for him. And he's like, I thank you guys. You guys helped me come to this awareness just because it was something that had been weighing on him and he just realized, I'm not being the person that I want to be in this job.

You know, Dr. Skinner, I think it's important in here. If we're in a fight or flight or freeze, we're usually not going to be having these insights.

Mm.

We've gotta be in a calm place. We've gotta be taking some time, slowing down to be with ourselves, to be able to have these strokes of insight, to be able to see ourself clearly. And I think in this conversation I also just want to point out that I think this is really important just to really look at our relationships as we're talking about how do I figure out what needs to change? We've got to look at how am I showing up in my relationships. I'm not sure how to do this. I'm not sure where I need change. When I speak with groups, ring individuals, I'll say, we can pretty much ask anybody, what are three things you need to change in your life right now? And most people can come up with two or three. But being able to really look and seeing if I'M being abusive verbally or emotionally in a relationship, if I'm not showing up, honestly, if I'm calling names or yelling or just not speaking kindly, I know that, at least for me, that's not how I ever want to show up. And so being able to listen to myself, but for me, I call it feeling like I've been slimed. Feeling like, ooh, this is how my body feels. I don't want this.

And Marianne, to add to what you're just saying there when we do that and you use the word feeling slimed, I don't like what I feel based on my behaviors and my actions. And what I've come to realize is what when we get to that point, we have a choice. I can dismiss my behaviors and I can find a way to blame other people or criticize other people and shift the responsibility away from me, which is really a shame based response. When I respond negatively or critical, when I'm completely honest and I really say, I don't like what I did there or I don't like what I've done. And when we take ownership of that, that takes courage. To say, that was just wrong. I walked down that path and that was not healthy behavior. And I don't want to be that person.

And I think that's the crux of what we're talking about, is having that insight. To be able to see ourselves and say, I don't like that. That's not who or how I want to be. And really listening to ourselves and say, like, that's not the value that I want to. That's not how I want to interface with my world. So I need to fix some things.

Yeah. And then if we add to this, if you. Weeks ago, we did a podcast on the process of change. So even if I realize I don't like the choices I'm making, I don't want to be that person who's hurting a spouse. I don't want to be angry. I don't want to live in the patterns that we've been living in that process of taking action where we talked about that process of change. When we start to take action, there's a new energy about us. It's like there's a hope because we're doing something different. And so the process of making the choices, when you make a choice to do something and you start acting on it, it gets more and more momentum because you've acted on what you felt you should be doing. And that to me is a really powerful thing to do.

You know, Several years ago, I had a guy show up in my office and he said, what are your goals? What do you want to be working on? What do we want to do here in therapy? And he said, well, people have told me that I'm a narcissist and that I need counseling. And so I don't know, but I'm here because that's what people have said. And so sometimes we might not have the insight. He wasn't sure, but other people had said, hey, there's some problems going on for you, bud, might want to get some help. And what I appreciated is that he was open enough to be able to say, I'm not sure if that's true or not, but let me go explore that. Let me go get some help and explore that. Because I can't quite see it.

Marianne. What I think is important in that, the way he responded, the word I would use is humble, right? It requires us to be humble to ask, is this feedback right? Am I doing things that are selfish or so self focused that I'm not seeing the way that my actions influence other people? I've often thought about the concept of the most successful people I see in recovery. Marianne. I can always attribute it to a sense of humility or being humble. I'm open to learning, I'm open to feedback, I'm receptive. I want to be a better human being. And I think we can even be humble with ourselves when we start doing a self analysis in our lives. And a humility is. I don't like what, as you said, that sliminess. It takes a humility to say, I need to stop, I need to improve, I need to be better in this way. Because if we did that, I think our society, we would be more loving, we would be more kind, we would be better humans because we aren't afraid of change.

Love that. Dr. Skinner. I'm just thinking, you know, I always come back to self compassion as we wrap this up. Going back to that client I had previously just mentioned. One of the things that was fascinating as we worked together is he had so much trauma. And yes, other people on the outside said, hey, you may have some narcissistic traits, there may be some stuff going on. And as I got to know him and understand him once again, he was acting and maybe some subconscious behaviors just he had some firefighters, he had some ways that he was showing up and he was really trying to deal with his trauma. And so for our listeners today, I really want to invite you to hold up a mirror. Hold up a mirror. And look at yourself and say, are there messages that others have shared with me that areas that I need to change, or are there areas where, you know, yeah, I've acted against my value system. Who and how do I want to be? And also to give yourself compassion, because I think we're all works in progress. And as we talked about before, oftentimes when there's trauma, oftentimes because of earlier, I talked about my daughter, who will have these ideas or belief systems that came from something that I said. We all carry those around. And so if we can give ourselves compassion and grace and then say, okay, and now what?

Yeah, and what we're really talking about, really, if we break down the choices that we make in life, we're. We're really starting off saying, do it with awareness, do it with this insight, seek personal insight. And then once you've done that, reach out to other people, get their feedback, be humble. And really what we're talking about here, Marianne, is, is character development. And I remember reading some about Ben Franklin and apparently he worked on certain values and he said, I want to work on these things. And he would work on until he had developed that character trait. And to me, in our society, I think we've lost the focus of asking, am I being my best self? Am I showing up in the way that I'm proud of? Am I being this person that I respect my own behaviors? And when we as a human race forget that, then we are more, can I say animalistic, more self focused, rather than, how do I contribute to society? How do I make society better? And I think if we were to focus more on that kind of character development, much like Ben Franklin, I think we would have a better society. And so as you make choices today, my invitation is to invite you to pause, to reflect and start with looking at self. And then as you make important decisions in your life, make them with the insight. Because you've slowed down, you've analyzed where you've been when you need more feedback, reaching out and then act upon it.

My closing words are the concept that comes from Joe Dispenza and he talks about how 95% of what we do is autopilot. And I remember years ago going out on my morning walk and realizing we do the exact same walk every single morning, same roads, everything, and just stopping and saying, hold on a second, I'm going to turn right here instead of left here. I'm going to do something that's a little bit different. Realizing that our brains, they crave change, they crave things that are different. And when I say like 95% of what we do is an autopilot, I don't have to teach myself how to tie my shoes. I don't have to teach myself how to drive a car every time that I go to drive my car, those are things that my brain already knows how to do. But our brains are wired for novelty, for newness, for change. And so, as we're wrapping up today, I would love to challenge our listeners to start noticing where am I on autopilot and where do I maybe need to do some intentional, make some intentional choices that will be healthier and better for me in my life?

Thank you so much, Marianne. I know you're gutting out today's podcast with your health, so thank you so much to our listeners. We hope that as you reflect on where you're at in your life, that you're going to be able to see some ideas or some strategies or some things that, you know what, I want to be better. And that's our hope, is that you'll take that from this. Now, with that being said, Marianne, I am so excited about the second annual Human Intimacy Conference, March 13th and 14th of 2026. What I'm so excited about is we have an incredible lineup of experts who are going to be talking about all things sexual, betrayal, betrayal, trauma healing, overcoming unwanted sexual behaviors, and then really repairing the relationship. I've been in contact with some very dear friends, Dr. Jill Manning, Michelle Mays, just two of the highlights. Just so excited that they're going to be joining us again and many, many others who were with us last year. So to our listeners, we're going to put a link in this podcast, show notes. We invite you to sign up early. There is a discount half off, and we encourage you to use that discount to get your seats soon. Marianne. The other thing I'm so excited about is our podcast, Rise Hope and Healing from Sexual Betrayal. I'm excited that it's moving forward and our listenership is growing in that one because I think a lot of people are like, I need some more focused on my betrayal, on helping me heal from betrayal. And then the Reclaim Podcast, I just launched the 12th version of that or 12th podcast, and that's for helping people overcome unwanted pornography use. So those are some resources to our listeners. We hope you'll take advantage of them. And we thank you for your time today. And Marianne, you get feeling better.

Thank you.