Self-Leadership: The Roadmap to Healing, Hope, and Deeper Intimacy (Episode #67)

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Something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh.

Welcome to the human intimacy podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner and Marianne Michaelis. Marianne, it's coming back from an incredible conference, the ITAP conference. The International Institute of Trauma and Addiction Professionals, your first impressions and thoughts, Marianne.

There it is right there. No words for that. So, as you know, I presented for the first time at this conference and took a lot of work just applying for it, you know, being selected and then getting it ready and preparing for it. And so that definitely was some stretching for me. But what an awesome opportunity for me. I love to learn. Learning is just something that I'm so passionate about. So being able to be in a space with so many people and hearing and learning how other people who work in our field, the world of sex addiction and betrayal trauma, really learning from these other experts, it's such an awesome opportunity. So it's been big, it's been on my calendar for a while and I'm glad to have been able to have participated in and it's been really meaningful. Me, meaningful for me.

So sorry, I'm going to go into assumption here, Marianne, that our listeners that you're going to say, well, what did you talk about, Marianne?

Oh yeah, that that makes sense. That that leads right into it. So what I talked about actually I think leads a little bit into what we're going to be talking about today, which is some self leadership and hope. And what I talked about and presented was there's a tool called Frazier's Dissociative Table. And it was originally created to work with people struggling with what they used to call multiple personality disorder. Now they call it Differentiated identity disorder. Is that it or is it Disassociative. I think it's just associated identity disorder, but it's a tool that really is working with our parts. And so what I was sharing with in my presentation was how to use, working with our parts with this specific technique and using an art trauma session. So using the dissociative table to figure out what's the problem that we really need to work on and then taking that problem that our parts have helped determine. Here's the problem, here's what we need to work on. Here's maybe some of the actors that are getting in the way, doing some resolution with that and then going into an art trauma session and working on the issue that the, that was determined when working with the parts. This is what we need to work on and doing all of that in a one day outpatient setting. And so it's, it's a longer setting. It's not like, like a one hour session, it's a multiple hour session. But my clients then walk out with, with usually something really big resolved that they, they're seeing it through a whole new light and there's just no emotional energy anymore. It's, it's really fascinating. And so it's something I fall in love with. I kind of fell into and I, I was, I've been so excited to share it with other therapists.

Yeah. And so as we talk today, we're going to be talking about a roadmap. And that roadmap is self leadership, being responsible for your healing, your recovery, your journey to a best you. And so you talked about doing an intensive where you meet with people for multiple hours. The purpose of that is to help them accelerate their healing, giving them a roadmap towards healing and really work through the barriers that prevent them from making progress. That's really what we do at intensives, is we focus on helping individuals accelerate their healing, create the roadmap of where to go and how to do it in the most effective ways. What I have found in my work and throughout my career, when people seek our help, it's usually because they don't know how to do something. I mean, if you really think about why a person comes to therapy, it's, it's because they don't know what to do next. They don't know how. They're looking for new ideas or insight into how to do it differently. So really as a therapist, what we're doing is providing a roadmap or a direction to help people learn self mastery, self leadership.

Yeah, I want to speak to that as I'm sure you've seen this before, whether it's a couple, whether it's an individual, whatever situation it is. What I often see is sometimes people come to me and they have a plan or they have an idea. And sometimes I have people who show up just a crumpled mess, for lack of a better words, who are so frozen and traumatized that all they know is they need help. I have no idea what I need. But I'm coming here with hope that you'll be able to help me figure it out, because I have no idea. I've never been here before. My whole world just imploded. It's just exploded everywhere. And I'm having a hard time just getting out of bed. And so when clients show up needing help in that space, absolutely. Our job is to say, here's. We want to guide you. We want to give you tools, we want to give you the resources. But there is a point point where I can, I can fire hose you with as many resources and, and help as much as I can. But it does come back down to internal motivation. And we. One of the, one of my favorite quotes from you, Dr. Skinner, is we pay for pain. When we are in enough pain, then we will say, I have to change. I can't do this anymore. This isn't working for me. And that my pain's so big, I will do whatever's this really hard next thing because I can't stay here anymore.

And when I work with individuals who are in that kind of pain you're describing there, Marianne, I have found that they're looking for something that is new. They're looking for something because what we're doing hasn't been working, whatever that is, whether it's couples work or an individual who's dealing with addictive tendencies, or whether it's a person in trauma, the pain is so much that they're seeking that help. And that's where we come in, is providing a roadmap. But what's interesting about a roadmap is every individual needs their own roadmap. It's not my roadmap. It's the roadmap to your best self. Self mastery, self success is the capacity to become our best selves.

I'm so glad you said that because there, there's a couple of externalizations. I can. Being in pain, being in trauma, being stuck. I can come to you and hey, I need help. Here's my problem. And I'm coming to an external source saying, fix me. Whatever you, whatever you tell me to do, I'm Going to try and do it. There is that. But that is led that that direction comes from an internal space where I have to say this, this isn't working for me. And so the self leadership, I, I love the idea of it has to come from within us where we direct. And sometimes trauma does get in the way of that and we do need to do some trauma work to understand the part. So I may have a three year old that's jumping into the driver's seat and acting like a three year old or making three year old decisions that aren't really that great of decisions, but because I've got some unresolved trauma with that three year old that I might need to do. And so understanding, at least when I think of self leadership, I really think about working with our internal parts and getting to know ourselves a little bit better inside to understand who's driving my bus right now. Because sometimes I've got some bus drivers that they're not really making adult decisions that I really think are a good idea. And I know I've talked about this here, but I have a third grade kicker I have when I get upset or angry, like I want to kick thing, I don't kick things, but I feel like a third grader who wants to kick things. And so recognizing, oh, my third grade kicker just showed up that that's important for me just to internally understand and know that and say, okay, what's my third grade kicker trying to help me with?

So Marianne, you're talking in for our listeners. We're talking about every one of us has unique and different parts. And you were just talking about a third grader who wants to kick, kick something at age, that age probably usually people. Right, right. And they did something and she wanted to fight back and kick. Right. But the concept is, is we have different parts of us at different phases of our lives. And those different parts have protective parts. They have very specific purposes. And, and really, whether we want to acknowledge or accept that or not, that's actually how we are as human beings. We all have different parts. And when I'm talking to somebody in trauma, they're not always in trauma. There are different parts of them. Same is true of someone who's been acting out. There are different parts and they have different purposes. But when I learn to integrate, be the real me, be myself, I take all these parts in my awareness and say, I see and I understand this part and I understand this part and I understand the roles and I understand all of that. And at the core of me, the Real me, the core, the inner part. Do I know who I am? Well, I'm all of them. I can honor all of them. And they all have very specific purposes and reasons for what they're doing and why they're doing it. And so when we learn to heal, we integrate these parts into us as a whole. And I would put it this way, we become the best self, the best leadership of our parts.

And let me just build on that a little bit more. Richard Schwartz, who came up with internal family systems, which is what we're really talking about here, in his book no Bad Parts, he really highlights that we don't have parts of us that are bad. They're just parts that are trying to meet a purpose. And as one of our, one of our friends often says, we all have legitimate illegitimate means to meet our legitimate needs. And so we have these parts that are often trying to help us, but sometimes they're not very helpful because they've gotten stuck in bad roles. But one of the things I love that Richard Schwartz says in his book, he says that he provides several meditations with each chapter. But one of the meditations is, he says, you know, starting out each morning and just checking and saying, okay, parts like, what's going on? Is there anything that I need to attend to? And this is, this is that self leadership of saying, I, as my curious, creative, compassionate, centered self, I can lead from the place of goodness of who I am, from a very integrated place. But I can check and say, hey, what needs to be attended to? What's going on? And it is about me becoming a leader and not being driven and letting my parts just kind of, you know, run amok, like run around kicking people, which is, is what, you know, that. That's one of my responses. But I have to say, hold on a second. I am not a person who kicks people. And I must feel frustrated because this part's showing up. So what do I need to work on? That is that leadership of self and.

The power of this process is that we begin to act intentionally. But in order for us to act intentionally, we have to have the insight into why we. We are doing what we are doing. That is a reflective experience in and of itself.

So hold on a second. You're saying we have to understand why we're having the knee jerk reactions. I'll use me again. So something happens and I want to kick somebody. You're saying I need to have the insight to understand why I want to kick somebody. I'm just wanting to make this really clear. Is that what you're saying?

If we're going to change it, yes. Otherwise, I'm just going to go kick. Or I might have the restraint and say, well, that was dumb, but I don't understand the need to kick.

Yeah. So I think you're saying, then if I can slow it down and say, golly, Marianne, something happened that you wanted to kick somebody, can we look a little bit deeper and maybe ask my kicker part to just step aside and see what were you trying to protect? How are you trying to help me out? And, oh, somebody rejected me, and I felt really mad, and so I wanted to kick something. I wanted to kick somebody because I was so hurt.

So, same concept. If I'm a person who's been sexually acting out, there's. There's an insight that is required there. Right. What. What am I looking for? And I often ask this question to my clients. I said, when you were acting out, what were you looking for? What was the desired outcome? What was. What was it doing for you? What was that need that was being filled by that sexual act?

I love that because. And when we're looking at ATT through an attachment lens, when we're looking, like through emotional focus therapy, we are always working with couples, trying to help them get deeper and say, what is the unmet need? Deep down, what is the thing that you were trying to accomplish? What wasn't happening for you that you needed and so you had this action? And so if we can take that elevator down, say, what was my need that wasn't met? Then I can really figure out, oh, how do I need to repair? And especially if it's an attachment rupture, like feeling rejected or abandoned or not enough or just wanting comfort.

So let's say I am feeling rejected or abandoned, and now I have that awareness. The most common pathway is still to act out. So insight in and of itself is not the answer. It then should require us into action. So when I'm feeling alone or isolated or rejected, instead of choosing to go to the old pattern or the old pathway, I am instead going to go for a walk, contact a friend, make some food, listen to some music, do a breathing exercise.

I think you and I have had this conversation feels like before, because this is where I would also say I'm going to slow down and I'm going to sit with the emotion I'm going to recognize I'm feeling. What does it feel like to feel rejected and abandoned? It feels like sad. Can I let myself feel sad and be in that space for a minute? And not have to do anything about it other than let myself feel that and then reach out for the need that I have, which is for somebody to connect with me or love me or move my body to help move through the emotions. But always making sure, at least that's where I always want to come from, is making sure that I'm allowing the emotions, because I've got a lot of emotions about that.

Self leadership is what we're talking about here. And that is actually a form of self leadership is to be emotionally attuned to you, to self, to me. Right. And in that self leadership, another phrase, self mastery, is I am now able to be with emotions up and down and all over, sad, excited, afraid, fearful, excited again, back to fear, back to hap, up to happy. I'm able to understand all these emotions and. And then I have an awareness thou that leads me to his place of, okay, this is normally when I might act out or this is when I might be triggered and I might do something I don't want to do or say something I don't want to say. So instead of me feeling out of control, I step back to get the awareness. So then I can act intentionally in the situations that have typically either led to a relapse or led to an argument or a fight in a relationship, or me to do something or say something that I regret. It's intentional.

It's intentional. And I think it's a conversation we have to have with ourselves. Because before I can reach out to somebody and say, here's this need that I have, I've got to figure out, I've got to have that conversation with myself. What is my need that I have? I can't ask for somebody else to connect with. I can't ask, hey, can you help me with this? Because part of recovery is recovering the relationships with ourselves and with others, and part of recovery and healing for anybody is learning how to have that vulnerability to be able to say, here's my need, can you meet it? That's so scary. But I've got to understand what my need is.

So that part that you just described, Marianne, is where I have gained enough insight into who I am that I can actually make a request for need that I feel would be important for me. I have found in many cases, if not most of my career, that expression of a need, we don't communicate it the way you just said it. We communicate it through a temper tantrum. We communicated in another way, saying, can't you love me? Won't you do it? This, right. And we're communicating it through anger or frustration, ignoring, avoiding. You're not giving me meeting my need. And so then I do something that is out of our agreement in this relationship or out of boundaries, because I didn't know how to turn toward the person and say, hey, I. I have a situation. I'm dealing with this and I, I need to talk about it. This need is really whatever. I need to talk about this. I'm concerned that maturity is something that I see in people with practice, but rarely does it happen without that kind of personal insight and awareness and then application.

And so it sounds and seems maybe a little insurmountable for some of our listeners. I can get, you know, like, okay, great, so. So this takes a lot of maturity and I'm not there. What do I do? And so I, I want to maybe add just some baby steps in here that are. It's okay if you don't have all of these skills yet. Most, most of us don't. And even if we have them, they're hard to use, especially in the heat of the moment. So I just want to be really validating that these are hard, but maybe some baby steps. Because, Dr. Skinner, as I was hearing you say that, I was waiting for you to say, turn to the person. Just say, I just need a hug or will you go for a walk with me? That's what I was expecting you to say. Cause I think you said that in the past. And so I was like, we better say it. But the baby step might be just to say, I'm trying to figure some things out and I'm having a hard time. It's okay if you don't have all the words and you don't have it all figured out. What you might recognize is that you need some connection somehow. And finding a safe, healthy way to find that would be a baby step. I'm dysregulated. I need some help. Can you be there for me?

Yeah. Again, the core concepts, insight and self awareness are a beginning step to self leadership. You can't lead what you don't understand. And if you don't understand yourself, you can't lead yourself. Why am I doing this? What is this about? How do I respond effectively? How can I be better in marriage? How can I be better with my own health? How can I get better sleep? How can I be more productive at work? How can I save more money? These are the types of questions that when we really look into, then we can get self leadership because we like, man, I don't know how to save more money. Well, maybe I should learn. Okay, go get knowledge, go get information. See if I'm going to be a leader of myself. That means I'm continuously growing, I'm learning, I'm pushing myself. How do I be better in marriage? Boy, I wish most people would ask that question more often than not.

So, and what I, what I Love about that, Dr. Skinner, just tweaking this conversation just a teeny bit. I also think we learn through our patterns. I can't change something that I don't understand. And so if I have a behavior that I don't like or that needs to be changed, I need to go through and really slow it down. This is what we usually do in therapy, especially when we're working with sex addiction. But with anything. Let's talk about what's the trigger. Let's talk about what gets me over the line. Let's talk about what puts me into that place where I don't want to have this behavior. And let's backtrack it and just rewind it and figure out what got me to that point. And the more I can figure out what am I like? There are things I don't like. There are things that I'm doing that I don't like. So how did I get there? And the more I can understand just my past history, then I can start saying, oh, oh, this is actually what led me there. So here's where I can change it.

Yeah. And again in, as we go through that process, you start asking those types of questions, you're going to get, as I've said earlier, you're going to get more awareness, more insight. Then you can start to make decisions based upon the data. And this is a self reflective exercise. So one of my steps to self leadership, even in my own life is where am I going? What am I doing and why am I doing this?

I love that. Finding your why.

Yeah, finding my why exactly why is why am I doing this specific thing? And, and if I can't figure out the why, maybe I'm not in the right space.

I love that, that that's a really powerful motivator for me as well to really stopping and saying what is the purpose of this? What am I trying to accomplish? I have finite time and so why is this, is this really where I want to be? What's the purpose? Yeah.

So I got one more thing that I'd like to talk about on self leadership. And for me this is maybe the crux of everything of, of what we're trying to do here at human intimacy. I believe self leadership should always lead us to be better in relationships. And the reason why I say that is when I am being my best self, I'm going to naturally make the world better. And the way I make the world better is through human connection. I could be the best leader of myself and I would be chasing my tail if I was a dog because I can only get so good by myself. At a certain point I need to reach out, reach up, help others, lift others, be better. And so for me, self leadership should be leading to deeper levels of intimacy in our relationships.

I, I love that you said that, Dr. Skinner. I know we've had some conversations in the past where we've talked about research with people on their deathbed and they never say, man, I wish I'd made more money, Man, I wish I'd worked more. It's never about that. It's always about the relationships. And I think all of life boils down to our relationships. We have the most pain usually because of our relationships, and we have the most joy because of our relationships. And so as we're looking at this self leadership, it is, as I think is probably a major theme that we don't identify very often. It is about the relationship with myself because I've got to find the congruency within myself so that I can show up and I can be there and develop the healthy relationships, allowing people to see into me and being able to see into others in safe, healthy, trusting ways. Where I do that is where we're our happiest. Where we're at our most full is where we are being seen and seeing.

Other people and can see other people. When I am so self focused, then I'm not able to see other people. So I do self awareness. But I have seen individuals who get so lost in self that they can't see the world around them. So if we're going to get this right and do it right, it's not just self leadership. Self leadership should lead to better human connection and deeper levels of intimacy, more compassion for others, to bring society to a higher state through your love and your gift of who you are as a human being.

When we're looking at these other relationships, I don't think it even has to be with people that we know. I mean foundationally. Yes, we want that. But I'm also thinking about the joy that comes from showing up someplace and serving. When we get outside of ourselves, we see other people in other situations. It gives us more gratitude for where we're at. And it helps us see the world through a different lens and it changes our perspective. What are you going to say about that?

The joy of seeing joy in another human being. That's. That is what I'm talking about. And that is a concept that is taught in mindfulness trainings, loving kindness meditations. It is a meditation finding joy in others joy. You want to have an experience. Just think about somebody who is happy and they're joyful and be grateful that they are happy. Just meditate on that for a period of time. Just seeing a person in their joy. And, and, and you might want to lean into that can. Are you resistant to others joy? And if so, why?

You know, Dr. Skinner, I'm reminded when my, my oldest daughter was really young, younger than probably three. I remember I was cleaning and she was watching something, and I remember hearing her belly laugh at something she was watching. And, and I remember it shocked me and surprised me. I was like, wait, what? And seeing my daughter's sense of humor emerge. It wasn't something that I or anybody had done, but she saw something and just was just laughing so, so hard. And, and so as you were saying that, I just was. Was re. Recalling like, kind of like the shock of like, huh, huh. My kid right here, she's. She's got all this joy going on and thinking about how that impacted me, but the joy of me as a parent to see my child's laughter.

There's power, the joy of seeing others joyful.

Yeah, there's a lot of power there.

We, as human beings, talking about self leadership, our goal should really be to be our best selves. I'm working on it. We should all be working on it. But our society really needs us today. Our society needs us to be the best self. It needs me. It needs you. It needs everybody to step back and say, am I leading a life that's positive and productive and am I lifting others up? Am I bringing joy into the world?

Can I flip that just a little bit, please? I want to flip that because sometimes we can't be our best self. Sometimes we are stuck, and sometimes our best self might be saying, no, I can't show up for that right now because I'm really stuck. And I'm working on some personal healing and I'm really, really not doing well. And it's okay. You. We might be being our best self even when we're not doing very well. And so I want to make sure there's no, like, heard shame from our listeners or anything, because I have had Times in my life where I've had to say, I'm sorry, I'm working on some personal healing, and that was the best I could do. I can't help you right now. I just can't. And that was my best self.

And what's so interesting, that you go there, because to me, that is being your best self.

Yeah.

Because if I show up resentful, if I show up in this space where I'm like.

Or I'm phony and I'm plastering that.

Being my best self, being congruent and authentic, and when I have the energy, when I have the capacity doing tasks and. And doing things unexpectedly and lifting. The point is, is you know yourself well enough to say, I need a timeout right now. I need to go sharpen my saw. And other times, I need to go out there and make sure that I'm helping saw.

I'm sorry, Dr. Skinner, the saw. I just was like, there's a creepy vibe going on there.

You don't know what that is. 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. Stephen R. Covey says that we every once in a while need to go sharpen our saw, meaning we need to get better at a skill or we need to go learn something. So sharpen your saw refers to something Stephen Covey said. It's like there's times where you need to go learn and grow and develop. You need to do something for. I'm gonna call it self care. Sharpening saw.

I got the concept. Just the saw part threw me a little bit. Like, why are you sharpening your saw?

I'm gonna get that book for you. Stephen R. Covey, 7 Habits of Highly Effective People.

I'm pretty sure I've got it in a book.

All right. All right, now let's pull it out. Teasing. All right. Final thoughts today, Marianne?

My final thoughts are just. I want to just share with our listeners just the joy of learning. Thank you for being here. Thank you for taking the time to listen to the things that we want to share with you, that we're trying to share with you. Because there is so much hope and there is so much to learn. The more that I learn, the more I know that I have more to learn. And I find so much joy and excitement from that, from connecting and learning from others, being able to see them and allowing myself to be seen as human and imperfect as I am. And I just want to share just the hope that comes from reaching deep inside and really allowing ourselves to get a glimpse of who we are. And as you said in our last podcast. I loved how you ended it with that quote from C.S. lewis talking about all of us are immortal beings. We're pretty spectacular and so many times we forget that but we have this ability to lead and connect and so much innate wisdom in us within each of us if we will slow down and listen to that.

Thank you. That's great. Final thoughts and my final thought is this. We're talking about self leadership. I like that term. Hope, right? If you don't like what you're seeing in the mirror, do small things. Small things one at a time to help yourself see the real you. The real you. No mere mortals. And that's the reality. So thank you for being with us. Thank you for your time today. We always appreciate you sharing this with friends. We also if you have questions questions@humanintimacy.com and may you be blessed with the love and the relationship connections that you desire. Have a great week.

Thank you.