Sex After Betrayal: Navigating Sexuality, Safety, and Connection (Episode #118)

Something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh. Something's around.

Welcome to the Human Intimacy Podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Michalis. Marianne, today's topic, sex.

Yeah.

Now, if you are listeners, don't tune us out already.

Exactly. And don't— probably save this one for your EarPods, your AirPods, or not kids in the backseat of your car.

So we're talking about sex because we've had so many questions. We've had clients who are trying to figure out their sexuality post-betrayal, post-discovery. They're trying to figure out and how to navigate this incredibly challenging timeframe with their sexual Drive. Can we say that?

Yeah. And I have a question for you, Dr. Skinner. Just, yeah, it's because you've been in this field longer than I have. I'm wondering, how often have you heard this talked about or addressed, if ever, addressing really like the sex drive after betrayal?

Very little, except for when I do training for therapists. I talk about it because in my research I asked the question, after discovery, what happened to your sex interactions. And so I have some research that I want to share with everybody on that today because I was gathering that data and I was really surprised because I asked the question of how pornography— and it was just primarily focused on pornography and its influence on the relationship and in particular the sexual relationship.

I want to preface, I think our question today, or just like, here's our topic, it's not just sex, but I've been betrayed and I wanted to have sex. Is that okay? And I think both partners, if I've betrayed, is it okay for me to have sex with my wife or my partner after they found out? And the betrayed partner, I've been hurt so much, but in this moment I wanna have sex with my partner. Is that okay? So I think that's what we're wanting to tackle today and at least explore.

And I would like it to be more of an intentional question. Anyone who asks me, is it okay if I have sex? That's not my decision. I don't want to be in your sexual decision-making.

Right.

I want you to make an informed decision. I want you to be aware of what you're doing and why you're doing it. But I don't want you just to have sex willy-nilly without any intentional thought.

Okay.

So let me give a little bit of the research. So I asked the question, how has pornography influenced your relationship? Has it made it better? Do we view it together? No. Do I feel like it's a hidden secret from my partner? That's the most common one. Then I asked the question, how has it influenced your sexual interactions? And I asked both partners, the person who is not viewing it and their spouse was, and they didn't know it, and the one who was viewing it. A majority of them were having sex about average for what the United States is, and that's about 2 to 3 times a week. And that's surprising to people. But on average, the couples in the United States are having sex between 2 to 3 times a week. Now, for our listeners, that may be surprising, but that's the average. All right. So now we go, well, what's happening in these relationships? And most of them felt like they were— that's what they were doing. They were doing what the national average was.

Mm-hmm.

And then what happened is after the discovery, we had people who went more sexual and people who went less sexual. So before discovery, about 7 to 8% ish, and I'm gonna have to get clear data there, were not having sex. So they were still— most people were having sex at least one time a week, sometimes 2 to 3 times a week. After discovery, we went down to a little over 20% are no longer having sex. So we went from 7 or 8% down to about 20%.

That's interesting. So there was 7 or 8% that weren't having the average, hitting the averages of sex. Which I would just guess might be related to whatever was going on in the relationship, that there's a disconnection with their addictive behaviors, with the sexuality, that that's probably dwindling anyway.

Right. Right.

And you're saying that from 7 though, it raised from 7 to 8% to actually 20% stopped.

That's right.

Okay.

Right. So a significant increase or decrease in sexual frequency. Right. But we also saw in some cases they became more sexual.

Mm-hmm.

And when I introduced that data to therapists, they're like, hmm, shake their head and like, what's that about? And I'm like, well, it makes sense to me because I've heard this over and over. I think after discovery, I think in many situations, the betrayed partner is fighting for the relationship. Now that's not always the case, but it's like, Oh, do I have to compete? And so there's this natural part. The other part is because of a discovery, sometimes there's more openness, more transparency, and I felt something was off and now I know that it's off and that vulnerability will draw people into, okay, I feel safer now because I finally know the information or I have the data.

I think there's one, there's probably lots of other reasons, but another one I want to add to this conversation. I often see betrayed partners with the idea or thought of, oh, if I'm more available sexually, then my partner won't act out someplace else. And a lot of times I'll hear women specifically say, well, I'll be your porn. And even stepping into places where they normally wouldn't, doing things that they're maybe things that they're uncomfortable with, but also in that this is a, I feel threatened, the relationship feels threatened. So let me pursue it a little bit more. Let me be more sexually available because it can also be part of that internal dialogue of there must be something wrong with me. So if I'm more, if I'm, if I'm enough, then this won't happen. It's a self-preservation.

Yeah. That is a story I've heard so many times. So let's talk a little bit further about that. And in those situations, because in those situations, I think what happens, MaryAnn, is I've seen people go against their beliefs or go against their— how they would approach sexuality because they feel that not only the pressure, but if I don't do this, then they're going to go outward and I'll be replaced.

It's a huge threat. So it's a response to a threat to the relationship. And it's just trying to preserve it and hold on to it.

And so again, I don't know the exact percentage of those individuals who do that. But what I do know is I've heard the story afterwards of like, I feel disgusted that I did those things. Like, that's not how I want to be sexually. And I did that only to find out— and here's the next part of that story— only to find out that that didn't change my spouse's behaviors. Like, in essence, I became more sexual in thinking that I could influence the outcome. And when I realized that I can't, so now the pendulum swings. I went hypersexual for a period of time, or more sexual. And then all of a sudden it drops off and we're not having sex at all. And now we're just sexually confused.

Right.

Because I was up there and my spouse is like, well, this is, this, this is good. And all of a sudden there's another, either another relapse or something occurs and then it drops off and then there's nothing at all.

And I would call that, I think that's tied to hope. So if I'm, if I'm engaging and we're engaging with this hypersexuality and something happens to damage the hope. That makes sense that, oh, okay, I'm in despair now. So I'm distant and cut off.

Right. Individuals, when they are trying to navigate their sexuality, the person who is acting out is trying to figure out, in my mind, what do I do with my sexuality now? Because I was acting out, I was doing all these things. Now I'm trying to rein it in and my spouse wants nothing to do with me. So now there's this sexual tension in the person who's acting out. But what we often don't talk about is the betrayed partner's sexuality.

Right. I was going to say, let's not preclude that that betrayed partner doesn't want sex because we are all sexual beings. That's part of how we are created. That's how part of how our bodies work. And just because my partner betrayed me doesn't mean that my sex drive is immediately gone. For some people it does like that when we're in survival mode, biologically our reproductive system does turn off. And so to our listeners and viewers, if you're like, I, that's just not, I'm not even interested in that. That's normal. That's your body trying to protect you. If there is a desire there, it just doesn't normally turn off all the way because my partner's been acting out or I've been betrayed, but it might feel— this is the tension I think of being a betrayed partner of, I want closeness, I want sexuality, I want connection, but that's not safe for me. So what do I do then? Where do I channel and manage my sexuality and my sex drive when The areas where I connected with that in healthy ways, it doesn't feel safe for me anymore.

So Marianne, let's go into that for a second. What do you say to a client who comes to you and says, I do want to be sexual, but I don't trust my spouse enough to be sexual with them. How do I deal with this sexual tension that I'm now feeling? Because we can't ignore the biology. Like we know that when a female is ovulating, As an example, the natural inclination is procreation, right?

So I have 3 words that, that are the umbrella, I think, of how I address this with clients. And sometimes my clients are a little bit shocked and surprised when I bring it up, but it's called sexual self-mastery. It's something that I think as parents we don't teach enough. We don't talk about it enough to say you are a sexual being. Of course you have a sex drive. And I'm expecting my partner to have sexual self-mastery. Like, that's really what I'm expecting from them. And I also need to figure out how do I have my own sexual self-mastery? Do you have any thoughts you want to add to that before we dive in?

Yeah, let's define sexual self-mastery. I've heard it, you know, talking about like trying to bridle our passions, right? I think that's what you're talking about, sexual self-mastery. So how, if I'm, if I'm listening to this, What do you mean by sexual self-mastery?

I'm going to share a story with you. This is a story that I usually share with my clients. When one of my children was a baby, my grandmother gave her this beautiful rattle and it had this really wimpy handle and it made this great sound. And my daughter would lay on the floor and she would play with this rattle, but her arms were not like— she didn't have her motor control. She didn't know what her arms were yet. So she, she could grab and she'd have this rattle and it had some really hard edges and it would hit her on the head because she, she flailed her arms and she'd hit herself on the head and she had these big welts on her face and she'd cry. She'd hurt herself, she'd cry and go, "Ahh!" She didn't realize what was going to happen. I use this analogy because my daughter as a baby had to learn how to use her arms. She had to learn how to control, how do I move this so I don't hurt myself? And when I were talking about sexual self-mastery, I think it's learning how to use my body, especially my sexual organs and my sexual drive and the feelings of longings and the excitement and arousal. How do I learn to use that in a way that doesn't hurt myself? And I think it's just human development. How do I learn how to sit with this? How do I learn how to accept this and use it in a healthy way.

So learning how to understand and manage it in a healthy way. And I would say not just sexual self-mastery, but not just hurting self, but hurting others.

Oh yes, absolutely.

I would add that part of it. And then when we look at that process, like teenagers, we don't talk about sexuality very much with teenagers. If I look at my clients over the last 30 years, very few of them have come in and said, oh yeah, my parents were really effective at helping me understand my sexuality and understanding sex in general. We don't talk about these things. So we're left either to media or to locker room talk or with friends or whatever that is. And so where are we getting our sex education and understanding our own selves sexually in a productive and healthy way?

And what's being taught in the media is hypersexuality, objectification, and no consent.

When you say the media, I would add to that a cultural shift has occurred. I would say, estimation, probably last 25 to 30 years. With the advent of the internet, it's changed significantly about just things that we didn't even think were possible. Like, I remember when I first started in this career and very few people were coming for anything related to pornography. And that was in 1995 doing therapy. So 31 years ago. By the time I graduated with my PhD in 2000, it had escalated from not at all to people coming to me because of the internet. And so I've seen that evolution of, well, even then it was this slow dial modem to today where it's available instantly through through a device that has such quick access. And so we've changed culturally so much about the opportunity. I remember many years ago, real quick, there was this accessibility, affordability, and anonymity, the 3 A's. Well, we have all of those with pornography.

And we have, as you're saying, going from a centerfold Playboy magazine to, I know that I hear things in my office that I've never heard of before, that I've never dreamed of. I'm sure you do as well.

I, I literally, there's so many things going around right now. I'm like, what does that one mean?

So we're saying we live in a world that's really complex sexually with the messaging, but how often do we hear messaging of, hey, let's talk about personal self-mastery. I wanna dive a little bit more into that because you still might be saying like, well, how do I do that? And I wanna share a tool that I use with my clients that, that I think it's really can be really helpful and really insightful. And so I'm gonna use some graphic clinical terms just to preface that. But if I am feeling, if I'm a female and I'm recognizing that I'm feeling sexual, rather than saying, I have to act on this immediately, this is a place where we can bring in a lot of mindfulness and to be able to say, what does it feel like in my body if I'm feeling sexual? What's going on with my breasts? What's going on with my labia? Is there blood pumping? Is there throbbing? What's going on with my vulva? Really? Like, what's happening with my vagina? What's happening with my body? What is it? Where do I want to be touched right now? Where is it that I'm feeling sensitive? And just being able to sit with and explore from like almost a third-party place. Okay, can I just sit here for a minute and can I just sit with my body feeling this way right now? Oh, this is what arousal feels like for me. Isn't that interesting? I don't have to do anything with it. Isn't that interesting? The same way— and I don't have a penis, so I'm not 100% sure, but I know that the penis gets engorged, blood rushes to it. There's some throbbing, there's pressure. What does it feel like to sit with that? To feel like I have energy here that I want to do something with it. What is that like for me? And what do you want to add to that?

Because, well, a big part of this, what you've described is in this situation, a spontaneous arousal. That's a term we use. So spontaneous arousal is you could just be aroused and you're not, there's not a place where you're going to be sexual at this point. You're feeling spontaneously aroused. When young men go through puberty in particular, we know that because they're starting to get more and more testosterone, they get erection and they're not even thinking sexual thoughts. We also know that from that point forward into adulthood, that more likely late in the early morning, the body is being aroused. And again, it's subconsciously, it's not a conscious choice of being sexual. I don't even think we talk about things like this, but I love that exercise.

And for men, they're multiple times during the night, during the sleep cycles, they have erections and that's their body just working through multiple times. And so it is pretty normal to wake up with an erection. Doesn't mean that when you wake up with an erection that you're aroused and you want to have sex right then.

Right.

Or is it, this is my body doing its biological reaction. And if my partner is interested, sure, I could be ready to go, but it might not mean that I'm waking up super aroused every single morning. And please add to that.

I think both directions. I think that mindfulness exercise you were talking about with just being attuned to the bodies, the breaths and so forth. I think that is a beautiful way for all of us to understand our sexuality in a non shaming way. That's a biology of what's happening to us. And I think if we were to honestly talk about this in a cultural way that's productive and not, ooh, that's bad, or yeah, that means you want to have sex. No, it simply means that my body's doing what it's doing. We need these hormones not only for procreation, but to feel healthy. For example, we know that men with low testosterone are more likely to be depressed. So when I have clients that come to my office and they are not getting nocturnal arousal, I'll often ask the question, have you had your testosterone levels checked? Because testosterone is not just linked to sex drive, it's linked to mental health, depression. It's linked to strength and muscle rebuilding. And when you don't have energy, you're more likely to get the gut, a round belly, because you're low on T levels. And so we're so uncomfortable talking about this. When I educate my clients, they're like, really? That's what may be going on? I can't tell you how many clients I've had go to the doctor, do a test, and they're low on T. Great.

And if I can add a little bit to that, since we're talking about this, I think it's also important to recognize one of the biggest questions regarding erectile dysfunction is, do you have an erection in the morning? Mm-hmm. So if you're not waking up with an erection, that, that's that's a good indication of, yeah, there's some erectile dysfunction. But additionally, if there are struggles with erectile dysfunction, that can be an indication of heart problems. And that shows up 3 years before the heart problems actually show up. And so our whole system is built together and it is slowing down and saying like, well then what's really going on with my body?

So I want to talk a little bit about the concept of not when we aren't disciplined sexually, then we can see individuals with porn-induced erectile dysfunction. Right. And so we start to see, I can't perform. There's issues because of porn. I see this with clients who have had extensive use and a long history with pornography. I also see it with individuals who have sexual shame and because of their sexual acts, they're afraid to engage in sex with their partner. And I've seen many betrayed partners say, My partner rejected me for extended period of time before I discovered their behaviors.

There's research that's a little more recent that talks about individuals who are now finding, because I've been so conditioned by porn, I'm unable to even become aroused by a human being. And this is so complicated because I wanna have sex with my partner, but now my body isn't working right. Yeah. And, and some of this, I think when we're talking about the erectile dysfunction or the inability to, to achieve an erection, oftentimes we talk about like a 90-day sex fast to kind of reboot. And that's not the topic of this podcast specifically today right now, but that's a tool that can be helpful as you're trying to figure that part out.

The reintegration part of a couple trying to rebuild this part. I mean, we haven't talked a lot about that. I think we could do a whole series on sexual reintegration. Because I think that's so complex because we have people with different sex drives at different times. Like how many times, Marian, have you had a client come to me as we were mentioning earlier, like, I really want to have sex, but I don't know what to do with my partner. Cause if we have sex, are they going to interpret that as if everything's okay?

Or if we just had a fight or an argument, we've talked before about makeup sex, but we just had a fight and now we want to have sex. How does that fit?

And in my experience, we don't want to replace intimacy with intensity. If we have intensity, then we think it's intimacy and we can get very confused. That's something Dr. Patrick Carnes talked about in his book, The Betrayal Bond.

Can we talk about the confusion of that? If I have just had a fight with my partner, I may have said things that I've been thinking. I may have been really vulnerable, even if it came out in an angry way. I might have been really honest, might have been honest for the first time in a really long time and really let my emotions out. And depending on how my partner responds, like after a fight, after an argument, oftentimes we are showing up, we're actually showing up and we're being really vulnerable. And when we see our partner or when we're making up and we see our partner soften, and say, here's where I'm really at, and I am so sorry. And we're making these gestures that are open and we're exposed with our emotions. That is usually where we bond and attach. And so that's where it can be super confusing. How did we just have this big fight? Yet I feel drawn towards my partner and I want to attach with them.

I saw this in elementary school. It was, I watched two people in my school get in a fight. And they just absolutely hated each other. Boom, boom, boom, fight, fight, fight, fight. The next day they were best friends.

Yeah.

I don't know what that phenomenon is. I can't really explain it, but that's kind of what we're talking about here is we've let it out. And I believe what happens there is we worked out that tension and now that connection, that friendship, and in a marital relationship, what we're used to at that point is being sexual. And I always invite my clients to say, what does sex mean to you? If let's say that you did act on it and you chose to have sex with your partner, you said, you know what, I'm feeling close enough right now. I feel connected. I feel this. I feel the desire to be sexual with you. That would be a great conversation. When we talk like this, when we're vulnerable like this, when you're open with me like this, it draws me to you. And it is arousing. And I want to be clear, this is productive for us. And these feelings, it doesn't mean we have to be sexual now, but I'm feeling those feelings. Now they may choose to be sexual.

Right. And this is a place where I think you can also, like, I need to journal this. I need to work this through because it's confusing. And I also ask my clients, okay, if you're in that space, And in session we'll say, let's walk that through. Let's say that you did have sex with your partner. Let's say it's over. I want to know how you see yourself interacting as soon as it's over.

Hmm.

What happens next? Especially if there's a separation, especially if you're, you've got a contract or an agreement right now, or your boundary is we're not having sex. What happens once the excitement, the desire, what happens afterwards? Are you turning towards each other? Does it feel safer or are you questioning yourself and saying, what did I just do? Oh, what do I do next?

See, that feels like the part that's coming out, the protective part and says, oh wait, you made yourself vulnerable. Now you've got to put up a wall. You got to protect yourself. And to me, there's a danger there because you can subconsciously ruin something that was just connecting and bonding. Or you can actually use it as almost a jumping spot to the next level of healing and recovery. So when couples can talk about this, it's like, that was a bonding experience. I enjoy bonding with you that way. That conversation, the ways that we talked and you opened up and I was able to share with you how I was feeling and you were responsive, that is good for us. I've seen many betrayed partners go into a place of shame because they were sexual. I shouldn't have done that. I've had people come into my office, is it okay that I had sex? And I'm like, well, let's pause for a second. Let's walk through your thought processes. What was happening to you? Why you chose to have sex? And let's walk through that whole process. And when we're done, we have greater clarity. When you were done, what did it feel like? Did you stay bonded? Did you just continue having conversations? And that whole process needs to be explored and understood openly and honestly.

Because I think you're talking about, and once again, there is no answer that we could ever say this is okay or not okay, because what you're talking about, I think, is that question of, did I betray myself? I felt like I wanted to have sex, but in given the circumstances, Was that a self-betrayal? Did that go against my values of where I'm at right now in the relationship regarding my emotional availability and my willingness and safety and bonding? Several years ago, I was in a training about sexual reintegration after betrayal with, uh, Verpas. And as I sat there, one of the things that I realized was my clients aren't ready for this. My clients don't know how to have a conversation and communicate how they feel. They don't know how to communicate their emotions. They don't know how to sit with each other and hear each other's emotions and sit with that. My clients need some other tools to be able to reintegrate this in a healthy way where they're both showing up with consent, with kindness, with honoring where each other is and with their own sexual self-mastery as well. And so as we're looking at bonding, as we're looking at connecting again, this is usually where we talk about using some sensate type therapy, which is, can I just sit next to you? Can we just hold eye contact? What does it look like? You know, really slowing down the physical part of it so that the emotional part of it is there too. And that's where I would say we bring in some of these other communication tools. So we learned how to verbally and emotionally show up in that sexual interaction as well. And we learned to say, oh, if my partner isn't interested right now or isn't available, how do I sit with my own sexual frustration? How do I have sexual mastery regardless of which partner I am in the relationship? And how do I communicate that and hold my partner's face for that.

So two things come up. We have to have awareness is what we're saying. We have to understand ourselves well enough, our own sexual arousal, our, our, I call them our sexual cycles. Because we do go through cycles. We know that females, as they prepare for ovulation, their body's more sexual. Men also have a cycle that they go through based upon testosterone levels. We go through cycles.

And we also have pheromones. We haven't talked about pheromones, but Pheromones are like the little scents that we don't even smell, but our bodies are picking up saying like, hey, I'm kind of interested in you. And our body's reacting to that on subconscious levels that we aren't even aware of, which can drive us crazy sometimes.

Because we don't understand them, right? Because they're subconscious. So awareness is important. There's also another part of this. Let's go to that situation where you said that that person was questioning their, you know, should I be sexual? Should I not be sexual? Trying to make sense of their sexuality. Let's say that they did have sex. Marianne, could I just invite them to have some self-compassion there and say, because you could beat yourself up, I violated my own boundary. What's wrong with me? Or it could be taken as a learning experience and say, wow, that was something that was inside of me that I felt. And this interaction and everything that occurred, can I talk openly with my spouse about what that meant? Here's the circumstances, and can I talk about it in a way that is, you know, it doesn't mean the boundaries are down. It simply means I understood in that situation. And so we're going to have to talk about this more honestly and openly as we move forward, as we try to make sense of our sexual selves. If we don't do that, Marianne, then we live in a non-spoken world that was much like what occurred before the discovery. I think couples have to learn how to, in a safe way, talk about their sexuality and do it in a non-threatening way.

I think that every individual needs to own their own sexuality. They need to figure out what is this for me? What does this look like for me? And how do I own and take ownership of my emotional feelings, my sexual feelings, my sexual drive? Where and how I use it. And I think it comes back to some of our values. Uh, where is this safe for me? Where is this not safe for me? Where do I feel comfortable? Where do I not feel comfortable? And yes, when I have frustration or sexual energy, how do I manage that in healthy ways that don't hurt myself and don't hurt other people in a way that I feel good about myself and I don't betray myself?

I think after betrayal, both partners are trying to navigate that space. And it feels to me that it's more— can I say bipolar? The ups and the downs may be more intense than ever before, just trying to make sense of these experiences. And that's what I've experienced throughout my career is a lot of confusion. And so my hope is that today, as we've talked about this, the clarity that you may hopefully are getting is I need to do a self-evaluation. I need to step back and pause and understand myself. And then really learn how to communicate that in a productive way in the relationship. And not in a blaming, not in an accusing way, not in a, like, you did you this or you that. No, it's like, here's what I'm discovering about myself and here are my feelings. And I think understanding each other's sexual cycle is very productive for relationships.

Yeah. Uh, as we wrap up today, I'm grateful for this conversation because I feel like it's been one that's needed. And I would love to invite our listeners to take some time after listening to this or viewing it and do some journaling, do some writing, and look at what does this look like for me? What does my sexual self-mastery look like for me? What do I do when I'm frustrated? And take some time to really just do some internal work of understanding yourself. And if it feels safe, if you'd like to share it with your partner, they have to start some conversations.

Again, I have found one of the most connecting experiences is when couples mature to the point where they can talk about their sexuality without it being a threat, without it being a blame, but they can talk openly and it be that kind of a conversation where it's like, we can talk about sex, you can talk about anything. And that's my core concept that I think is so critical for couples to figure out.

And as I hear you say that, I think about some of my clients that, that, and, you know, Dr. Skinner, you and I talk about this all the time, but for, I would say, the general population, sex is one of the hardest topics to talk about. I have clients who are like that. I don't know how to talk about this. This has never been talked about. And so I just wanna recognize there might be some, some feelings of shame and some vulnerability even just having listened to this podcast and we're saying like, hey, let's step into this. Let's have you start talking about and thinking about it. Recognize whatever emotions that come up for you. That's okay. Those are normal. And just give yourself compassion that, okay, this is where I'm at. So I'm really grateful for this conversation today. Thanks, Dr. Skinner.

All right. And thanks to our listeners for letting us be a part of your life journey. You've been listening to the Human Intimacy Podcast with Dr. Kevin Skinner and Marianne Michalis. Have a great week.

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