Sexual Fantasies: Healthy Intimacy or Hidden Escape? (Episode #81)

There's something about you that I can't help but smile when you smile and laugh when you laugh. Something surrounds.

Welcome to the human intimacy podcast. Dr. Kevin Skinner with Marianne Michaelis, licensed clinical social worker. She is up in Washington, she's licensed in many states and, and she's got great clinical experience working with individuals dealing with sexual betrayal and sexual compulsivity, sexual addiction.

Thanks, Dr. Skinner. I am so happy to be here today and really, you know, I wanted to introduce you to our listeners and viewers because this week I was talking with a client about one of our podcasts recommending the one that talks about disclosures. And I said, you know, this was Dr. Skinner. And they were kind of like, well, who's Dr. Skinner? And I just thought, I want to make sure that our listeners and viewers really know what a gift it is to be able to sit and learn from you, Dr. Skinner. For those of you who don't know, Dr. Skinner is one of the foremost experts, I would say, in the world. And you can correct that Dr. Skinner if I'm wrong. But on Betrayal Trauma, he's a faculty member of itap, the International Institute of Trauma and Addiction Professionals. And what that means is he trains certified sex addiction therapists and certified partner trauma therapists throughout the world. He teaches multiple times a year. He's teaching brand new therapists and he's supervising them and hearing their cases and helping give lots of guidance and helping understand how do we help people who are struggling with sexual acting out behaviors, compulsivity and with betrayal trauma. And so it's just such an honor to be able to be here and to be part of this podcast and to share, learn and grow and discuss with you, Dr. Skinner, what I might have gotten wrong.

Yeah, so the concept of being a foremost expert, I have no idea what that even looks like. I. All I can tell you is I've gathered research from 20 plus thousand people, so I probably do have the largest data set of individuals who've been sexually betrayed and their relationship and how it influences their relationship. And I have had the privilege over the last 10 years to be a part of the faculty for ITAP. And I did the math the other day. I've probably supervised or trained. Supervised, probably four to 500 maybe, and maybe not quite that many, but I've trained somewhere between 1500-2000 therapists from throughout the world. So it's been an absolute privilege of working with therapists. And when I do supervision, we take on some of the most difficult cases and try to provide support for them and guidance. So I feel honored. And whether I'm the best, all I know is I love what I do. And my goal is to actually help individuals who've been betrayed their partners, and if we can help relationships, if that's what they want to do, that's my ultimate desire, is to help couples heal.

Awesome. Well, Dr. Skinner, our topic that we're going to talk about today, I've had the privilege and opportunity for about the past seven years to meet with you almost on a weekly basis and talk about cases and to learn from you, along with some other therapists as well, as we we're learning together. And recently, one of the conversations as therapists that we were having was talking about fantasy and the role of fantasizing and is it healthy? Is it not healthy? And so today we're going to be talking about that. And what's been really interesting is just having this conversation with other therapists and seeing this is such a broad topic and there's so many nuances and so many facets to it. And so even when, Dr. Skinner, when you and I were talking about let's talk about fantasizing today, this could be a triggering topic. This could be, you know, for our listeners. You might be saying, like, ooh, I'm not sure I want to listen to this, but let me start out. I've had this question multiple times from clients who've reached out to me and said, well, my husband said that he's been fantasizing about me. Is that bad? I don't know if that's good or bad. I don't know how to make sense of that. So is that good or bad? And so I think that's a really good place for us to start. What's your first response to that question, Dr. Skinner?

I'm going to start off by saying it's good and can be bad. If anybody knows me, one of my first responses is, well, it depends. Here's my caveat to all things sexual. Fantasy is normal. Both men and women fantasize. That's actually what allows us to get into the higher state of arousal to the point where we can reach orgasm. That's so that's not atypical. So let me start off with where it's good. In a safe environment where I feel valued and trusted and I feel connected with you, it's not a we're fighting and arguing. And so I was angry, so I then fantasized about having sex with you. Now again, some people say, well, what's wrong with that? Well, in that context, first make your partner feel safe in your presence. Do the things necessary to create an environment where safety is there. So for me, that's the starting point at all human intimacy. We need to do our very best to create a safe environment. Then, as individuals are going to be sexual. Thinking about your partner in a sexual way. My goodness, who wouldn't want their partner to think about them in a healthy sexual way, right? I mean, is that in and of itself, that feels like my partner desires me? So that can be a beautiful thing. We want to be desired. And if anything, I want couples to have healthy sexual relations. Because from the scientific perspective, healthy sexuality is really good for us. It really is. I'm a huge proponent of healthy sex. But we have to start with the foundation. And the foundation, it's a healthy valuing, bonding experience. And if there's been betrayal or if there's been other things that have disrupted that intimacy, doing everything we can to repair the relationship so we can get back into that space where I'm not threatened by a fantasy. I'm not threatened by your fantasy. That's my starting point.

You know, I love, Dr. Skinner, that you said healthy relationship. And I think those two words can't be underscored enough in this conversation. Because, yes, we all have fantasy. And, you know, if we grow up in a home where there's a lot of yelling, where there's a lot of neglect or abuse, it's normal for a child to fantasize something magical. I'm not here. Or a fairy godmother comes and takes me away, turns, you know, the pumpkin into a carriage. Like, we're raised on fantasies on these fairy tales and stories. And so that's very natural and normal, especially when things are really uncomfortable. I think it's also really important to look at the question of why, like, what's underneath my fantasy. Because our fantasies, if we are. Let's say that I grew up in a home where there was a lot of abuse, a lot of neglect, a lot of yelling. I may have developed patterns where I'm using fantasy as a way to dissociate, to remove myself from this place. And I may have some really strong neural pathways. And with my sexual awakening and my sexuality, I may be going down those paths. When I'm feeling shame, when I'm feeling frustration, or when I'm even maybe reenacting these things from my childhood, I may find myself repeating these patterns. Even in my fantasy is my subconscious is trying to work things through. And so we have to really look at what's my. Why. Why am I in this moment, in this place? Why am I fantasizing? So is that healthy?

So what's interesting, what you just said is we fantasize about a myriad of things. I was in a child development class many years ago, and I love what the teacher said. He said, a child's work is actually to imagine. The more imaginative they are, the more creative the brain. It's great for the child. In fact, that is the child's work, he said. And I thought a lot about that. So if we take that concept of imagination, that's a normal human response. The question that we're trying to address here is at what point does that imagination, that fantasy, when does it go awry? When does it cross a boundary? Because as human beings, we are naturally going to. Let's take it away from fantasy. We're going to imagine, if I have high anxiety, I could imagine a car accident. I'm afraid to get in a car. That isn't a fantasy. It's an imagination. I'm thinking about something occurring that's much like a fantasy of a situation. So when our brain is looking to something and we're thinking about something, we're not currently in this present moment, we're thinking about as if I was on a beach escaping into a world of, I don't want to be here right now. And so I'm going to go have a Calgon moment. I remember that from my childhood, right, where I'm in the bathtub. That was one of those Calgon experiences, right? Take me away.

And.

And I think that that's part of our humanness, is sometimes we don't want to be present.

You know, Dr. Skinner, sorry, I just have to jump in here. So when you're talking about this Calgon moment, take me away. For our older listeners, you'll know what we're talking about. But what's fascinating is you bring that up and instantly I can think of, like the pink soap. And I can instantly also think about the Chopin music that's running in the background. And this is such a good example of a thought shows up and our brain makes an association and says, oh, it's here it is. I can connect to this. And so this is often what happens with fantasy. We have a thought, a sense, a taste. There's a reminder, often at a subconscious level, and we may disappear into another space, and then we have to look, is, is this healthy? How is this helping me? What's the purpose behind it? Unmet need.

So, and I think if we all explored our own thought patterns, we do want to be on that beach or thinking about a trip that we've been on, or we want to think about, I don't know, winning the lottery or having a cookie. We all do it. You cannot not imagine something. If I said to our listeners, I don't want you to think about that rich chocolate cake, I don't want you to think about icing on top or the lava coming off of the hot fudge and the ice cream. Don't think about that. Well, what I did is I just took you to a place and if I told you, don't I know your brain did? Because that's how our brains work. And if I was to be quiet for the next five minutes and not talk about ice cream and hot fudge and cake, you'd probably think about it one to five times in five minutes.

So I'm going to invite our listeners to, like, respond and let us know how many of you went and got cake after this.

Sorry, I didn't mean to intercept that thought and interoception make it make you think about doing that. But ultimately, Marianne, what we're talking about here is it's a. We do that as human beings. Now, the question is, is it dominating my life? Is it overcoming me? Is it something that I'm ashamed or embarrassed about? I think this is where a lot of couples really struggle, because if your partner's had a problem with sexual betrayal, they. They've betrayed you in some way. You might be threatened by almost anything that they do, including their fantasy. This gets to the other part of the question. Is it I might be threatened by your fantasy because it's something that's sexual? That makes me nervous because I don't know where you're going to go with it. That's where I see the problems really coming in. So is fantasy good or bad? Yes, and yes, it can be both of those.

So let's contrast that then with a healthy relationship where one partner comes and says, hey, you know, let's talk about fantasy. Let's talk about fantasy of us together. And this is an imaginative place where the two of us are together in a safe place, doing things that are safe together, where we can express ourselves freely and we often have boundaries around this doesn't work for me. We don't go here, but we can try this, or we can look at this. And that can be really safe. That can be really healthy. As you talked about earlier, we want to have healthy sexuality and having fantasy. Talking together, learning Growing, exploring together, that can be really healthy. And it can also be really tricky and problematic when there has been sexual, compulsive acting out behaviors where we may really need some boundaries. But I think it's also about making sure that we're present. And something that Alex Katahakis talked about in one of her books. You know, she said, most of us, our minds wander when we're having sex. And we have to catch it and say, you know, is my mind wandering to a future sexual scene with somebody else? Is it wandering to a previous sexual scene with somebody else? Because those are good indications that. Hold on a second, I gotta come back to the present. Our minds also might wander to the kids or the grocery list or what we need to do next. And that's also pretty normal. And it's once again about, can I come back and be present here with my partner?

Right now we're talking about where does our mind go when we're being sexual?

Yeah.

I wonder if at times, because of sexual betrayal in the cases that we work with, that I'm threatened by your fantasy, I'm uncomfortable with your sexuality. I don't know what to do with it. It makes me nervous. I find that on a very regular basis. And so it's a very vulnerable place for couples to talk about that inner fantasy that they have. I think it's very common. I think we're uncomfortable with it when we don't know each other in that realm. Like, I don't know where you're going with this. What does that mean? But contrast that with, I understand you and I understand that this is part of what we refer to as an arousal template. If we ask the question, what is it that's threatening about this fantasy that they're in? If there is something that's uncomfortable, I need to identify that. And I also need to be cautious. Can I sexually shame someone? Because that is what's arousing to them. Yeah. So I need to understand my real quick. I need to understand my own fantasy. I need to understand, what is it? Why is this the most arousing to me, understanding myself is really the first step here. But the vulnerability of communicating that to a spouse, I would guess if we polled people, they try to dance around it. But having a direct conversation, I'm going to ask Marianne. Many couples struggle with that.

Sure. And I think we need what we call, you know, identification and differentiation. I've got to figure out who I am and who I am sexually and what's arousing to me and what's not. I do think it's really important for us to touch on this topic of if I'm in the middle of a sexual experience in my spouse and they are mentally having sex with someone else, that feels like a betrayal. That. That can really feel like a betrayal because my partner's not present here with me. They're using my body while they're acting out a fantasy in their mind with somebody else. And so this is where it gets really tricky. And this can be super triggering because. Hold on a second. Do I want to hear and know that you're visualizing having sex with someone else right now? Well, I'm right here and you're not present. There's a space where we can have a conversation about that that would be really interesting to understand what's going on with you in that moment that you need to dissociate or that you need to disappear. What's happening for you that you aren't able to be present with me? And that's a hard conversation.

And if we can be safe and open and not threatened by it, that's an interesting thing. Am I threatened by that? Maybe I am. If you've betrayed me. And I'm afraid. But why is it happening?

Right.

Where's. Where's that going, that self awareness, you know, and perhaps it's, you know, getting to that point, because I've talked with many people, men and women here, that when they are in that act of being sexual, that's how their mind gets even to a higher arousal. Right. And both men and women have told me that. And so I think we have to pause and just understand each other, what things mean and have that kind of vulnerable conversation. I'm afraid that a lot of couples, it's just so hard and so threatening. So if you guys, if that's too risky, you need to talk with a therapist on this one to get some support. If it's something between the two of you guys that you don't know how to communicate about that difficult topic. But if you can be curious, try to understand and be careful not to shame your partner for sharing their vulnerable self with you.

Yeah, I have an example of that. Just a very general example. So we might look at and say somebody who's really powerful, who has lots of responsibilities, lots of worries, lots of care, pressure, really big decisions, they may escape into a fantasy. And we could hear that. We could say, okay, that makes sense. That would be an escape from their reality of the heaviness of everything that's going on. And understanding, oh, okay, that makes sense. Doesn't have to be threatening. When we understand the why, when we understand the underneath and really understand what is maybe the purpose of the fantasy. And so in this place, when I don't have all the burdens on my shoulders, it might let me be really free. I can be really imaginative, I can be really playful. I don't have to worry. And so that can show up in this space for me, which it is.

An escape, which again, if we watch a movie, we're going into this world and often we relate with actors or actresses and we see things visually. And so we see ourselves as the Tom Cruise or we see ourselves as any of these actors or actresses and we put ourselves in those roles. And that too is an imaginary fantasy world that we go to. That's what movies do for us. So it wouldn't surprise me then, sexually, we're going to go to a place that. That's our space. The question is, are we still staying present with our partner or are we constantly going, drifting into another world and they can sense or feel the lack of our presence with them? That's what we're talking about in terms of a dangerous. Because I'm not. I'm not present. Now if. If your spouse goes to a certain place and they're escaping or they're doing something, they're. Are they still present and is that possible to be both. And my answer to the question is it might be possible. You're present, your physical touch, your body and your mind is allowing yourself to go into the space. That's maybe imagination and doesn't have to be a threat to your partner because you are trying. You love them, you are there with them, and yet your mind might be higher, aroused. And this is hard to hear for some people, right? Is that threatening? You're leaving me mentally while we're doing this.

And on the other hand, it can be really arousing for a partner when there's healthy communication. Hey, this is where I'm at. I'm here with you and I want to share with you what's going on. For me, that can be incredibly arousing and really intimate. Intimacy is about letting each other see us at our most vulnerable, letting our partners see into us and feeling like that freedom of, I don't have to hide from you and I don't have to have shame here, but I can let you see, hey, here's where I'm going. Can you go with me?

And again, there's the openness, there's the vulnerability. And again, this is a harder conversation for many couples, and especially when there's been betrayal. I mean, this is like a very vulnerable place. But if I can step back and we've done tremendous progress and we've done a lot of work. While that may be a challenging conversation, it can also be enlightening. And that kind of openness can draw us closer together. And I've seen that with couples like, well, I wish you would have talked with me. I wish we would have understood some of these things earlier. And let's try to make sense of this together. That's a coupleship taking. What? What? In reality, both partners have their sexual needs and desires. That's just. That's how we are. But if we can't talk about those things together, then I'll give an example here. Marianne, I can't tell you how many women have come to me and have said, I enjoyed sex, I really enjoyed sex with my partner. But it feels like it's about them. I have needs, and if they would be open and ask, I would be open and vulnerable with him. But I don't know if I can do that. I'm scared to, because it's primarily been about them and their needs. And boy, I tell you, that's so unfortunate, because when we talk openly and we understand each other sexually, we can really have even better sex. That's where I find that many couples struggle.

Yeah. You know, and Dr. Skinner, there's lots of other facets here, but one that comes to mind as you talk about that is sometimes when we are exploring sexually with our partner and saying, hey, let's try this. This might be a fantasy. Can we try this out together? Sometimes we can move into scenarios where we may be reenacting a partner's trauma that may be deeper down, that maybe our partner doesn't even know. And so this is a place where we do need to be really attuned, really sensitive. And consent is always, always key.

Yeah. And if I was to add to this, I know that a lot of people are threatened by their partner's arousal template. Whatever is that arousing fantasy. And part of it may be because in some individuals lives, the arousal template is. May be the only way that they really get aroused. Like, I can only be sexual this way. This. Right. If we're not doing that, I'm disappointed. Even if we're being sexual, if that's ever the case, step back, because what you're missing is this opportunity to bond with your partner in your newly defined way. Not just this way that I Imagine it. It's the way that we imagine it. And when you take it from it has to be just this way. I can't get aroused any other way. Then really you're putting a restriction on your sexuality and you're not opening the opportunity for you guys to talk and co create healthy intimacy. That's one of my bigger concerns in this conversation is well, this is how I get aroused. This is my fantasy. Well, what's our fantasy? Is there a way for us to merge, to join?

Several years ago, Esther Perel and Tony Robbins did a series of kind of like a webinar or conversation, a two part conversation. I think it was called something like why people cheat. Something about infidelity and cheating. And one of the things that I'll never forget her saying or her talking about is when there's a dynamic in a relationship where one partner is a caretaker for the other one, it can make it really tricky to be able to have this openness, to have this communication where I have to worry about you all the time. Therefore I have to make, because I have to make sure you're okay. Like give me the, the freedom to even explore what's interesting or what might be arousing for me because I have to make that you make sure that you're okay. And so I think it's important to also recognize sometimes our roles can complicate things. And once again it comes down to these conversations. I love that you're talking about and saying, okay, that might be your, your template, this might be mine, but what, how do we come together and figure out something that works for us? I want to share one resource for those who are watching. This is the book, it's called the couple's guide to intimacy. How sexual reintegration therapy can help your relationship heal. It's by doctors Bill and Ginger Burkhawk. And I had the pleasure of doing a training with them a couple of years ago. And this is especially for couples where there's been betrayal in the relationship. But there, there's some sections in here that really talk about this topic. There's even a contract as they're figuring out. This is creating a brand new blueprint for how do we together as a couple integrate sexuality into our relationship and really healthy, safe ways.

Yeah. So Marianne, let's talk about this. I understand clearly that many of our clients, we're talking about advanced trigonometry today.

Yeah, we are.

Right. That and I want to be very clear there. For many people this is really, this is like a really not easy Conversation. So preempting all of this sexuality is meaningful conversations. Learning how to have emotional conversations, sharing of emotions, the seven types of intimacy that I talk about. I'm actually working on this book. In the next year or two, I'm going to finish this book, but it's titled 7 Types of Intimacy in Action. Because with sexual intimacy being the pinnacle, the top of this triangle, the other forms of intimacy are so essential. Marianne. And so to our listeners, where there's been betrayal, please understand that we're talking, this is the top of the tipping point here, up, right? But all the other forms of intimacy build up to it. Building safety and trust and working towards those meaningful conversations. We're talking about learning how to be open with each other, learning how to communicate. That for many couples is something that they haven't been able to do because there is a threat. There are these conversations and there are expectations. Without a curiosity of help me understand where you're coming from. That is a communication issue that many couples need to figure out. Then when we talk about sexual fantasy, it's not threatening because I understand you. It's when all of a sudden, out of the blue, it's like, can we do this? Oh, wait, wait, wait, slow down. Let's talk about just having a little bit of intimacy in conversation that's building up to that. Because it's like, if you go too hard, it's like jarring. Like, where, where's that even coming from?

So we're talking about a 400 level series class right now versus a 101, right? And so making sure that our listeners are understanding that this is advanced, this is advanced relationship work that we're talking about. But it's important, I think, to understand because so many times when my clients are doing a disclosure or they're receiving a disclosure, fantasy comes up and my partners want to know, has he been fantasizing or have they been fantasizing and what have they been fantasizing about? And how does that tie into objectification, sexual acting out? And so I do think it's important for us to also recognize that this conversation is important. We all imagine we all fantasize. And we have to understand, not just, okay, are they fantasizing and what does that mean? We have to look at okay and what does it mean? And that might be some deeper therapy work. If we're doing a disclosure, we're getting the information out. And once we get that information out, that's usually where we start saying, okay. Now we can really start digging and trying to Understand the behaviors. Are these healthy behaviors or are they not? And what's the purpose that they're trying to meet?

Yes, yes. And so let me just go one other part here. I've had individuals who, their mind is just incredible. I mean, you fantasize about how things are built and all of those things. And sexual fantasy is a part of that experience, helping them understand. Okay, your brain thinks this way, but what does it represent? What is it? Is there a need there? Is it an escape there? Right. It's really starting to understand more about myself. Like that's curious that I feel that way or think that way. And, and really what is it that is missing or what am I needing there? And that kind of awareness is really, if you get that kind of insight, you're going to understand more about yourself. But if you find that you're constantly escaping, I'm not calling escape into this fantasy world. Come back home for a while, come back into your own cell, do some self analysis. Where's my mind going here and what is it about? Learn about yourself. Seek that kind of information. To me, that introspection is actually the gift that you give to yourself and to your partner. Like, I find that I'm living way too often in our relationship. I'm not present with you. I've got to work on that.

Yeah. One of the tools that can be helpful would be to talk to a therapist about this. Say like I need some help kind of unpacking things, making sense of things. But we can also often look and say, fantasy can be a really helpful tool to address shame. So if I have feelings of low self worth, my fantasy might be that I'm attractive to XYZ person. And being able to look at that and say, what is that trying to tell me? That might be trying to tell me that I'm trying to escape from feeling unattractive. Okay, that makes a lot of sense. So looking at, you know, this content, what usually what we're seeing is either we're identifying somewhere in this fantasy and it's usually trying to solve a problem for us.

And if we just add one part of that, we all want to be desired, Right? Right. We all long to be desired. And if you in your relationship, how do I show desire to my spouse, my partner? How do I do that? Because again, in a healthy way, I want us thinking about healthy interactions, including sexual interactions with our spouse. That to me that's normal. Right. We all long to be desired. And when we start to understand that, everything can improve. Because who doesn't want their partner to want them.

So if you're saying that that beginning question that we start with, so when a client says to me, hmm, is, is it okay for my partner to be having sexual fantasies about me? We say, okay, let's understand that context. You know, has the partner been betrayed and have you not been having sex? Has your sex life changed or dropped off? And there's been so much hurt and pain and the fantasy is just I'm fantasizing about being together again with my partner and my partner loving me and having a healthy relationship. That sounds like that wouldn't be.

Would you want that?

Right. We'd say, okay, that sounds like a pretty valid fantasy that's saying like there's pain here, there's hurt here. And my brain is trying to figure out a way how to express that and resolve it. So yeah, I can't resolve it here maybe physically right now, but my brain's trying to figure out a way to bring some peace to that.

Yeah. To our listeners, if you have questions or other things that you would like us to address on this topic or any other topic. Questions, human intimacy dot com. Okay, that's. I'm just going to tell you if you've got questions, let us address them because this topic is just one of many that we love addressing, just questions or things that are coming in. So please don't hesitate to ask your questions. Marianne, final thoughts for you today.

Final thoughts are it's so great to be able to have these conversations to our listeners and viewers. As you said, send us your questions, we want to discuss them and we want to talk about the things that are important to you. And please feel free to hit like or share with your friends. And as always, especially if this has been a hard conversation for you to listen to, invite you to use some self care, invite you to reach out for some support. And if there's been parts of this that maybe you heard that were difficult or uncomfortable, definitely invite you to reach out to other people to talk about it for support and to always use self compassion. Our approach is always to talk about things in a healthy, uplifting way. But sometimes it can be heard and can be really triggering or misinterpreted. So just we want to share with you that this is a place of learning and growth and hopefully hope and healing.

Yeah. Thank you, Marianne. And my final thoughts are this. Look, there's nothing easy about our sexuality at trying to understand ourselves, trying to understand our partners, trying to understand our own escape if we fantasize or how do I stay present. And how do I validate us in this relationship? Because for me, it's all about human intimacy, the ability to communicate our inner selves. If I find I'm escaping too much, if I find that my mind is going to places where it doesn't include or incorporate my partner into this journey, why am I leaving? Those are the questions I invite you to think about. And then the other part of it is, stay present as much as possible as you learn about yourself and your partner and see what happens. Try that experiment. Have really important conversations and be open to each other's understanding. It doesn't mean you're going to have to go do these things, but try to understand each other in the most profound way. And again, this is. I know this isn't easy. If you're going to be sexually reintegrating, be patient with this process. We're going to be talking about all these topics because for us, we want to help as many people as possible. Be open to these difficult conversations because it's in that openness that we start to make improvements in our relationship. So be patient with the process. Keep learning and growing. And we are so grateful that you're with us here on the Human Intimacy podcast.

Thank you.

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